Metagame Dynamax in Monotype

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im for banning dynamax but i think gigantamaxing is still ok since it's predictable, and i support all the reasons for banning dynamaxing that have been listed above.
 
Isn't there also the option to cap dynamax hp at 1.5 rather than x2? It's a mechanic in game. It would allow us to keep dyna while making it harder to set up due to less bulk.

Then if unpredictability is still a problem we could always go with Gigantamax only.
 

Havens

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Even if there were a feasible option to cap HP at a lower rate, such an option does not fix the unpredictability of Dynamaxing, granting Pokemon the ability to be walking nukes for three turns, changing terrains, boosting stats, and it definitely does not also change the fact that the Pokemon themselves are still infinitely harder to defeat due to the exponential HP growth.

I also doubt that we'll go ahead and alter the intended cartridge legal HP cap for Dynamaxing either, for both complex and technical reasons.
 
Isn't there also the option to cap dynamax hp at 1.5 rather than x2? It's a mechanic in game. It would allow us to keep dyna while making it harder to set up due to less bulk.

Then if unpredictability is still a problem we could always go with Gigantamax only.
The HP isn't the broken part about Dynamax. It's the secondary effects of the Max Moves and the fact that Dynamaxed mons cannot be taunted, encored, tormented, choice locked, flinched (I think), Whirlwinded/Roared out, or die from Destiny Bond, in addition to the fact that any mon can Dynamax at any given time that makes it broken. Artificially reducing the HP buff would not make Dynamax any less broken
 
Isn't there also the option to cap dynamax hp at 1.5 rather than x2? It's a mechanic in game. It would allow us to keep dyna while making it harder to set up due to less bulk.

Then if unpredictability is still a problem we could always go with Gigantamax only.
Pretty sure not every pokemon can be obtained at 1.5 HP in game. Also complex bans like this are generally discouraged. If we're only allow dynamax but at minimum HP then why don't we allow Mega Rayquaza but with no EVs and 0 IVs in every stat? Same logic.
 

Kev

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I didn't get the chance to post earlier, and I think everything has pretty much been said about Dynamax; I agree with most of the positions already posted. I originally played devil's advocate for it, but at the end of the day it is a ridiculous mechanic that destroys gameplay. I've had my fair share of fun using it, but for sustainability purposes it should be removed. Prior to the games being released, I had predicted that the SS metagame would require much more thinking than prior. While this is correct, it has proven that there is such a thing as too much thinking. With Dynamax, the line between predicting and guessing has become blurred. It's unfortunate that we need to get rid of the main mechanic of the generation, but it is the necessary measure to make a truly competitive metagame that rewards the better player most of the time. My main concern is that the generation will quickly become stale because of the lack of options and competitive disparity between types.

What I would like to address is the talk of keeping Gigantamax while banning Dynamax. While it would be a way to preserve the generation's mechanic, there are some drawbacks.

First, let's look at the positives:

- Every type has access to at least one Gigantamax Pokemon

- In many cases, Gigantamax Pokemon are less broken than their Dynamax counterparts. For example, Corviknight is unable to get speed boosts, Drednaw cannot set Rain and does not have Swift Swim (in Gigantamax), Charizard cannot set Sun to increase its fire power.

- You know exactly what Pokemon can Gigantamax

- The biggest abusers of the new mechanic will be gotten rid of such as Gyarados and Togekiss

Now, the negatives:

- While monotype generally has a "all types are equal but some are more equal than others" approach, the difference might just be too large. Certain Gigantamax Pokemon are bound to be deemed broken, and their bans can completely shift a type's position in the metagame. For example, let's say Gengar Gigantamax is broken and has to be banned. This leaves Ghost as the only type without the ability to Gigantamax, heavily disadvantaging it. This situation could be taken similarly to Mega Pokemon, with Mega Sableye being banned in ORAS, however the loss of a Gigantamax Pokemon might be much greater than losing a Mega. This is of course hypothetical, but should be considered.

- The bulk and the power and abilities of Max Moves still make this an overwhelming mechanic that might be too much to handle. In fact, the removal of Defensively Dynamaxing to counter the Gigantamax threat makes it even harder to handle. In certain matchups, a Gigantamax Pokemon will easily have 3 turns with 3 kills. So while you might know what is going to Gigantamax, it does not mean you have a reliable way of beating it.

While I have listed more positive points, the damage of the negatives severely outweighs them in my opinion. I regretfully do not believe it is feasible to have a relatively balanced metagame with Gigantamax staying. However, I am willing to give it the benefit of the doubt if we were to test it in a contained metagame without Dynamax like Lycan said. I would be happy to see it be manageable and preserve it, but just don't think that is possible.

Whatever course of action is taken, I hope we can settle these issues ASAP. While we have no major tournaments at the moment, it would be best not to have the metagame change entirely in the middle of a circuit tour or major tour team. I highly doubt there will still be any big issues by the time MPL comes around, but it would be ideal to have a properly defined metagame by the time the first seasonal happens.

I have added the Gigantamax options for every type below, in order to show how drastic the difference is between types.

Gigantamax Distribution by Type:

Bug: Butterfree, Orbeetle, Centiskorch
Dark: Grimmsnarl
Dragon: Flapple, Appletun, Duraludon
Electric: Pikachu, Toxtricity (Unreleased)
Fairy: Hatterene, Grimmsnarl, Alcremie
Fighting: Machamp
Fire: Charizard, Centiskorch
Flying: Charizard, Butterfree, Corviknight
Ghost: Gengar
Grass: Flapple, Appletun
Ground: Sandaconda
Ice: Lapras
Normal: Meowth, Eevee, Snorlax
Poison: Gengar, Garbodor, Toxtricity (Unreleased)
Psychic: Orbeetle, Hatterene
Rock: Drednaw, Coalossal
Steel: Melmetal (Unreleased), Corviknight, Copperajah, Duraludon
Water: Kingler, Lapras, Drednaw
 
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Original Post:

I hold a slightly different view upon dynamaxing. Monotype, unlike metagames such as OU, do not necesarily have to keep in count of a counter for every single situation. The nuking abilities and setup abilities on dynamaxing pokemon doesn't necesarily turn the table against all matchups all the time, and more often than not they don't instantly grant win on the game.

There are, however, several dynamaxing pokemon that breaks the game balance. I'm not denying that. Pokemons such as drednaw with their braindead abilities to win games should definitely go. But other than the few game breaking pokemons, I believe dynamax mechanics to Monotype is not devestating as it is to OU: its more like a decently better version of z-moves.

I think that there should be a list of pokemons restricted to use the dynamax mechanics, mostly to target overpowered setups which remains uncounterable after dynamaxing. Dynamaxing is a fun and strong mechanic and keeping it banned without attempts to adopt it in game is an ignorant idea.

Edit1:

After having some conversation in the monotype room I am gonna edit this to make it more reasonable and give some solutions.
So my main reason is really saying that dynamax being a mechanic shouldn't depart in a month. I feel like not much had been explored with this mechanic and giving up on it is way too early.
And here are some possible solutions I have thought to attempt to make it stay. I'm not claiming that it must stay, if solutions ends up not being able to fix the issue I wouldn't be against it going.

1. Restrict certain pokemons from dynamaxing.
Pro: Keeps as much room as possible for balanced dynamax.
Con: Results in a massive ban list, might even be as big as gen7uber list lol

2. Restric pokemons carrying certain moves from dynamaxing.
Pro: Directly targets problematic part of dynamaxing (such as Max Airstream, Max Knuckle, etc.)
Con: Complex ban, against the general idea of smogon ban method.
I'm gonna argue a bit here, I personally think that preventing complex ban, while it saves the life of showdown's programmers, does make the game lose some interesting mechanics and strategies. For such a generational major mechanic, I hope it doesn't go just because of resistance towards complex bans.

3. Ban dynamax and open another meta that allows dynamax.
Pro: Solves the issue completely, people want dynamax can go to the meta with dynamax and people who hate it can go to the other meta.
Con: Splits the player base.

Above are the current ideas I have thought of, please add on if you have any thoughts!
 
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DYA

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Original Post:

I hold a slightly different view upon dynamaxing. Monotype, unlike metagames such as OU, do not necesarily have to keep in count of a counter for every single situation. The nuking abilities and setup abilities on dynamaxing pokemon doesn't necesarily turn the table against all matchups all the time, and more often than not they don't instantly grant win on the game.

There are, however, several dynamaxing pokemon that breaks the game balance. I'm not denying that. Pokemons such as drednaw with their braindead abilities to win games should definitely go. But other than the few game breaking pokemons, I believe dynamax mechanics to Monotype is not devestating as it is to OU: its more like a decently better version of z-moves.

I think that there should be a list of pokemons restricted to use the dynamax mechanics, mostly to target overpowered setups which remains uncounterable after dynamaxing. Dynamaxing is a fun and strong mechanic and keeping it banned without attempts to adopt it in game is an ignorant idea.

Edit1:

After having some conversation in the monotype room I am gonna edit this to make it more reasonable and give some solutions.
So my main reason is really saying that dynamax being a mechanic shouldn't depart in a month. I feel like not much had been explored with this mechanic and giving up on it is way too early.
And here are some possible solutions I have thought to attempt to make it stay. I'm not claiming that it must stay, if solutions ends up not being able to fix the issue I wouldn't be against it going.

1. Restrict certain pokemons from dynamaxing.
Pro: Keeps as much room as possible for balanced dynamax.
Con: Results in a massive ban list, might even be as big as gen7uber list lol

2. Restric pokemons carrying certain moves from dynamaxing.
Pro: Directly targets problematic part of dynamaxing (such as Max Airstream, Max Knuckle, etc.)
Con: Complex ban, against the general idea of smogon ban method.
I'm gonna argue a bit here, I personally think that preventing complex ban, while it saves the life of showdown's programmers, does make the game lose some interesting mechanics and strategies. For such a generational major mechanic, I hope it doesn't go just because of resistance towards complex bans.

3. Ban dynamax and open another meta that allows dynamax.
Pro: Solves the issue completely, people want dynamax can go to the meta with dynamax and people who hate it can go to the other meta.
Con: Splits the player base.

Above are the current ideas I have thought of, please add on if you have any thoughts!
I don't think the player base will get splitted, most of my friends agree in a Dynamax ban. As you can see in the post in here almost everyone is in favor of a Dynamax. Banning only certain mons split the already limited viable mons, which is even worst for a tier like Monotype since some types already have very limited a roaster.
 

Entei

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its more like a decently better version of z-moves.
I apologize if this comes out as ignorant, as I have played 0 games this generation and viewed only a handful of matches basically, but yeah.. no.

Results in a massive ban list, might even be as big as gen7uber list lol
You said it yourself buddy, I can’t imagine anyone wanting to get their hands in so deep to request a suspect and/or have quickbans every other week, if not on a lesser time.
Complex ban, against the general idea of smogon ban method
Correct, and this too like the last “con” is huge as well.
I mean look at it this way:
We stopped type banning, although I and around half the informed&experienced community may argue, some types could use some Pokémon, we don’t have that, the changes a certain ban would make are not, as large, as healthy, or as important as we or said people who vouch for a certain change are.
So I could agree that it sucks that, an entirely new mechanic of an entirely new generation, so soon too, is going to be gone, but it is necessary.
Looking back, personally at least, gen 5 is probably my second most favorite generation, and it had no “special” mechanics at all.
It used to be great and it can be awesome again, I know we don’t have many viable Pokémon left, but post-dynamax meta is like a whole fucking new era, and changes everything upside-down.
Can’t wait honestly.

I hope I didn’t come out as instigative or anything cause I really didn’t mean to, I know it sounds idiotic like this whole post from a person who hasn’t played anything this generation, but if you look close I didn’t have any input on gameplay at all, anyway, thank you for reading and I hope you didn’t take offense :)
 
Thank you to everyone who participated in this thread. I know personally at least I read every one of your posts and took them into consideration when deciding whether Dynamax was fit for our metagame. As you may have seen, Dynamax is now banned from Monotype. I can say that this thread definitely fulfilled its purpose, and I appreciate the time you took in sharing your thoughts with us.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dynamax-is-now-banned-from-monotype.3657873/
 
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