Metagame Dynamax in Monotype

Status
Not open for further replies.
The Monotype council has been discussing Dynamax since the release of this generation and would like to have a conversation with the broader community on it. Dynamax has shown to be a very central mechanic to this generation, and with the addition of Max Moves, there are worries that it is unhealthy for Monotype. This thread is to centralize discussion on Dynamax and what actions, if any, the Monotype council should take in order to define how we will balance this generation: with or without Dynamax.

Dynamaxing so far has shown to be unpredictable and overbearing in some matchups when combined with the effects of Max Moves. Max Airstream is a great example, as a +1 Speed boost allows certain Pokemon to steamroll through entire teams. There is also the issue with Choice-locked Pokemon being able to break free from their restriction and hit the foe with a boosted super-effective attack. However, other users have pointed out that the metagame is settling down and players are beginning to utilize Dynamax defensively as well and are better able to predict when their opponent will Dynamax. That being said, Monotype has a lot more restrictions than other tiers like OU. So, not every team can run a Ditto to be able to counter opposing Dynamax sweepers, or use defensive walls such as Toxapex and Quagsire to prevent them from running through their entire team. This teambuilder restriction is especially noticeable for this generation because of the Pokedex cuts and movepool limitations.

Feel free to post in this thread with your thoughts on Dynamax in Monotype. Gigantamax discussion is encouraged as well, although the Monotype council views them as roughly the same. You are encouraged to post replays to further prove your point.
 
Okay so I'll go ahead and post right away as I've been playing a lot of SS. I think the mechanic+ the current Pokemon available is extremely unhealthy and makes teams run unviable sets to have any chance of beating them. The combination of the mechanic+things like Gyarados are extremely hard to handle and invalidate some types on it's own. That being said I believe that the mechanic could at some level become balanced through the bans of multiple Strong Pokemon that abuse it. The issue here lies in the fact that banning every Pokemon that's unbalanced could just result in a more unbalanced metagame if new Pokemon simply take their spot at the top of abusing Dynamax. Furthermore removing a good number of Pokemon out of the 400 total Pokemon (counting NFES and the like) that Sword Shield has could render some types unplayable and make the metagame even more unbalanced. I believe that banning the mechanic is probably a more direct and faster way of balancing out the metagame, but that isn't to say that there isn't other ways I believe this could happen. It's early in the game and we don't know exactly what people can use to beat Dynamax unless abusing one of the other strong Pokemon, but overall I think that the options come down to, banning the Pokemon that abuse it and seeing where that goes, or banning the mechanic outright and then tiering from there.

All this being said I'm gonna put myself in the BAN Dynamax category for who cares. It makes the game less skill intensive and games end a lot quicker. It's overall less interesting and less fun to me. I feel as though I've beaten players a lot better than me just by clicking moves while Dynamaxed and sweeping. I don't really want to see a tour where all this is in play because I feel it will take away from the high level of play we're used to seeing in tours like MPL and the circuit games.
I'm gonna throw some replays in here just to show some games that I think Dynamax was unhealthy (not all games were played well but I still feel some of these show how easy it made it to sweep my opponent with dynamax) I'll add more replays as they happen I keep forgetting to save them =D
 
Last edited:

dahli

been sleeping so long in a twenty-year dark night
is a Tiering Contributor
Been testing the mechanic for over a week now, and I must say I don't think it is broken per se, to me feels more like some users are problematic (Togekiss, Gyarados, Excadrill, Hatterene mainly). However, granted the nature of the current monotype metagame with half the pokedex being cut, I don't think we can afford to suspect key pieces to some types to limit them even more, so I think we should ban the mechanic, if not restrict it in some way at least. That said, if the council thinks a whole ban for dynamax should be done, I think we still should allow Gigantamax because its way easier to predict at team preview which mon is using it, just like mega stones worked on previous gens. The main mechanic of a whole generation being cut on a smogon official tier would feel weird to me ngl.
 
I agree entirely with what Piper has said above and I believe dynamax should be banned from gen 8 monotype, at least for now. Here are some reasons why I believe this.

  • Lack of counters: Even assuming things like Ditto are satisfactory counters to Dynamax in other tiers, this is monotype, where people simply don't have the choice of running a Ditto unless they want to run mono-normal. Right now, the only counter to dynamax is dynamaxing your own pokemon, and when the only counter to a mechanic is that mechanic itself it sorta speaks for itself
  • Choice Item shenanigans: This aspect is often overlooked but I feel like it's one of the most broken parts of dynamaxing. The fact that a pokemon like, for example, banded barraskewda can activate dynamax to freely change moves is ridiculous and honestly has very little counterplay.
  • Certain offenders: There are a few pokemon (and types) who's benefit from the extra hp and max move effects is incredibly lopsided compared to others. Think Gyarados, Swift Swim Barraskewda, or Unburden Hawlucha. This takes away from skill and balance in a game and makes certain types incredibly overcentralising.

I haven't made up my mind on Gigantamax yet, but its limited pool makes it seem significantly less powerful at a glance.

EDIT: I've come to the conclusion that Gigantamax needs to banned as well if Dynamax goes, for the simple reason that types without access to a good Gigantamaxer or even any Gigantamaxer will be left in an awful state and an overcentralised meta isn't something we want to encourage.
 
Last edited:

Wanka

a suh
is a Community Leaderis a Tiering Contributor
Monotype Leader
Okay so I'll go ahead and post right away as I've been playing a lot of SS. I think the mechanic+ the current Pokemon available is extremely unhealthy and makes teams run unviable sets to have any chance of beating them. The combination of the mechanic+things like Gyarados are extremely hard to handle and invalidate some types on it's own. That being said I believe that the mechanic could at some level become balanced through the bans of multiple Strong Pokemon that abuse it. The issue here lies in the fact that banning every Pokemon that's unbalanced could just result in a more unbalanced metagame if new Pokemon simply take their spot at the top of abusing Dynamax. Furthermore removing a good number of Pokemon out of the 400 total Pokemon (counting NFES and the like) that Sword Shield has could render some types unplayable and make the metagame even more unbalanced. I believe that banning the mechanic is probably a more direct and faster way of balancing out the metagame, but that isn't to say that there isn't other ways I believe this could happen. It's early in the game and we don't know exactly what people can use to beat Dynamax unless abusing one of the other strong Pokemon, but overall I think that the options come down to, banning the Pokemon that abuse it and seeing where that goes, or banning the mechanic outright and then tiering from there.

All this being said I'm gonna put myself in the BAN Dynamax category for who cares. It makes the game less skill intensive and games end a lot quicker. It's overall less interesting and less fun to me. I feel as though I've beaten players a lot better than me just by clicking moves while Dynamaxed and sweeping. I don't really want to see a tour where all this is in play because I feel it will take away from the high level of play we're used to seeing in tours like MPL and the circuit games.
I'm gonna throw some replays in here just to show some games that I think Dynamax was unhealthy (not all games were played well but I still feel some of these show how easy it made it to sweep my opponent with dynamax) I'll add more replays as they happen I keep forgetting to save them =D
Going to play devils advocate here,

I don’t necessarily disagree with your reasoning and I think you put forth good replays that showcase you (I think those are all you?) managing the game and dmax very well and more carefully than your opponents rather than it being completely brainless. I think there definitely are certain mons that are way harder to manage than others but again I think you genuinely did a better job at managing those games regardless of how quickly some of them got out of hand. In a world where dmax stays I think players shouldn’t shy away from an adaption period that comes with it. Games are naturally going to be less thought intensive in an adaption period because it’s an adaption period. We all need to learn what the fuck is going on, how to build better around what the fuck is going on (which is hard rn I get it), and how to manage what the fuck is going on better in games.

That being said, there’s also a potential world in my eyes where dmax does stay for whatever reason and it ends up being too much to adapt to even in the future with everything that needs to be released yet. We can’t see into the future though and understand what that meta will look like and in that world we still could ban problematic mons. Part of me just thinks it ain’t right to shut the door on it completely and I’m not opposed to diving into the unknown head first with this shit.

Idk yet though, I’ve played 100 some odd games and I still have mixed opinions. I think the intro tour is going to shed some good light and help me center my thoughts. I just ask we really broaden the scope here in terms of how we think and try our best to not be innately terrified of it just for the sake of it and/or because it’s easy to do so.
 
I'd also like to write down my thoughts on Dynamaxing, note that these are my opinions and not the councils.
First, I want to highlight what makes it unhealthy in my eyes.

1. Choice lock restriction not applying once you Dynamax - this I think is what makes it the most unhealthy to me. Scouting choice items is already a skill that requires playing around to determine how your team can handle the threat. This knowledge becomes irrelevant when you know your opponent can Dynamax and hit you with a swift 1HKO. An example of this is a Choice Scarf Excadrill vs Toxapex. Now, maybe I'm locked into rock slide because I predicted the Gyarados but my opponent went into Toxapex instead. Now they know I'm scarf, but they also know I can Dynamax, but I also know this information. This exchange leads to so many mind games at each turn where all the fundamentals of checks and counters are thrown out the window. Does the Toxapex user Dynamax into Max Guard? Does the Excadrill user predict this and save it? These exchanges happen at every turn, bringing me to my next point.

2. You can Dynamax any Pokemon at any time - this is problematic in itself, every game I've played I have to worry about my opponent using their Dynamax in every situation. Will my Dynamax beat their Dynamax? Should I setup first? If my opponent Dynamax's here I lose my wincon, should I scout? Granted these questions do not necessarily mean that it is overly unhealthy, but if I have to ask myself at every turn it becomes too much.

3. Max Moves and their secondary effects allowing you to easily setup and sweep - Now the main thing that makes this mechanic broken are the Max Moves. It is kind of ridiculous how you can boost your stats while attacking, or setup weather/terrain to hit harder with your next move. The most prominent example is with Swift Swim teams using Max Geyser to set-up rain and even if Dynamax runs out they are still a major threat with +2 speed and a boosted water attack. Being able to setup your pokemon to sweep after Dynamax runs out is ridiculous, and it doesn't have to be used offensively either. Here is an example, if you skip to turn 18 you can see I used Max Quake to increase my SpDef so even if my Dynamax ran out, I would be able to beat the Gengar. Max Moves also lead to things like weather wars just to stop your team from getting swept. They hit through protect so even if you don't get the damage off you still get the boost. And then if you Dynamax defensively, you still can't use recover or any status move to stall them out, just Max Guard.

Now to touch on some other points that I have seen:

Gigantamaxing: Honestly, I do not see the point of tiering this separately. It may not have been explored much but Gigantamax Pokemon can still do a lot of the same things Dynamax mons do, sometimes better. Drednaw is a pokemon I use a lot. I Gigantamax it and use Max Knuckle to get a +1 attack boost, now I have double HP, double speed most likely from having rain up, and now I have +1 attack and am free to use Max Stonesurge to hit with a boosted water-type attack and set-up a free Stealth Rocks. Lapras does it even better by setting up screens. The problem still persists. Gigantamax is not too different or underpowered to tier seperately.

Banning certain Pokemon instead of Dynamax: I also do not agree with this. I really see no point in banning Pokemon when the main broken thing is the mechanic. Ok we ban Gyarados and Togekiss, now that just leaves room for innovation to see what else becomes too unhealthy. Pokemon start running random flying coverage to get the +1 speed (I have tried this with Hydreigon). Pokemon that have been underexplored and are already quite good such as Corviknight, will start to see more use and abuse Dynamaxing. Also banning the sweeping abusers does not tackle the main broken mechanics, such as being able to get out of choice lock, or setting up terrain or weather for a later sweep. Sometimes I use dynamax just to setup terrain because my non-Dynamax attack will hit harder. Here is an example:
Regular Choice Band Dracovish:
252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

During Dynamax:
252 Atk Dracovish Max Mindstorm (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 118-140 (38.8 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Dracovish Max Mindstorm (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Psychic Terrain: 178-210 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

After Dynamax and Psychic Terrain set-up after a Max Mindstorm:
252 Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Psychic Terrain: 260-306 (85.5 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
What I'm trying to get at here is that Dynamaxing allows you to setup for a sweep outside of Dynamax, and allows you to sponge attacks and sometimes hit harder when outside of it. This remains true to all Pokemon and I don't think banning the main abusers will solve this issue, because the issue is the mechanic itself.

My recommendation right now would be to Ban Dynamax+Gigantamax completely, as I do not see this being healthy for monotype at all. I know it sucks to have to ban the main appeal and mechanic of a new generation, and I personally sometimes find games to be very fun with it, but that should not sway the conversation from the unhealthy and balanced aspect of the mechanic. A lot of players including myself are in a weird position where there is little motivation to build and play because of a lack of certainty in how Dynamaxing will be handled. However, I think we should wait until after the first monotype tour that was posted, and get some actual results from the games and credible replays. Maybe the metagame trends will prove to be different and players can quickly adapt. I find it highly unlikely, but it is worth it to see. However I think action should be taken soon.
Just read the bolded and underlined parts of this long ass essay lmao can't believe I wrote this shit. Also, bro you get 2x HP and 3 Z-Moves that set-up weather or terrain or boost your stats, do I need to say more?
 
Going to play devils advocate here,

I don’t necessarily disagree with your reasoning and I think you put forth good replays that showcase you (I think those are all you?) managing the game and dmax very well and more carefully than your opponents rather than it being completely brainless. I think there definitely are certain mons that are way harder to manage than others but again I think you genuinely did a better job at managing those games regardless of how quickly some of them got out of hand. In a world where dmax stays I think players shouldn’t shy away from an adaption period that comes with it. Games are naturally going to be less thought intensive in an adaption period because it’s an adaption period. We all need to learn what the fuck is going on, how to build better around what the fuck is going on (which is hard rn I get it), and how to manage what the fuck is going on better in games.

That being said, there’s also a potential world in my eyes where dmax does stay for whatever reason and it ends up being too much to adapt to even in the future with everything that needs to be released yet. We can’t see into the future though and understand what that meta will look like and in that world we still could ban problematic mons. Part of me just thinks it ain’t right to shut the door on it completely and I’m not opposed to diving into the unknown head first with this shit.

Idk yet though, I’ve played 100 some odd games and I still have mixed opinions. I think the intro tour is going to shed some good light and help me center my thoughts. I just ask we really broaden the scope here in terms of how we think and try our best to not be innately terrified of it just for the sake of it and/or because it’s easy to do so.
I was one of the people who was against banning Dynamax at first. I quickly came up with checks on fairy that allowed me to deal with setup sweepers and then found my own ways to sweep. After playing a ton of games I found myself liking the mechanic even tho the games were a lot faster. Now the issue actually came when i tried some other types. No Mimikyu, no sub prankster, no strong STAB sucker punches. I realized that I was living in utopia playing fairy because some of these other types are truly hell. A lot of types do have ways to check these pokemon or maybe revenge it after a kill or 2 but in a bad mu the 2 free kills could be enough to make you lose right off the bat.

Like I said i think that one day this mechanic could even itself out and create a genuine fun metagame, hell I've won without Dynamaxxing. But all that being said I think in a world where Dynamax does stay unbanned I believe there's some Pokemon that will ultimately get the boot. In this metagame where Each type is looking at like 10-20 pokemon on average even removing 1 or 2 could be extremely crippling.

My stance aside I'm genuinely glad that some people are staying open minded about this instead of all the "this game sucks ban Dynamax" that most members of the community jumped on without really playing it, it's nice to see that you played 100+ games and tried to work with it instead of instantly jumping on the ban Dynamax train after a Gyarados swept you.

Also I agree with Waszap Gigantimax being tiered seperately only removes the unpredictability of it. I didn't touch on this in my first post but The Pokemon still have the ability to setup with max moves or claim 3 kills etc.

I still believe banning Dynamax is probably the fastest and direct route to balancing this from my own testing but I'm excited to see how the players in the intro tour handle it and see if people find ways to play around Dynamax and we get an enjoyable metagame out of it.
 
Last edited:
After much thought, I tried really hard to be open-minded and experiment with defensive applications of Dynamax, how to read the situation and pick the best Dynamax target, etc.. However, even though it's only been a week or two since we've had this mechanic, I think it needs to go. The reasons earlier in this thread are all valid, so I will only add the following:

The tiering / ban philosophy of monotype has not been to equalize all types, but rather so that no types are completely invalid or too over-centralizing. However, the tiers right now are completely lopsided towards who has the best dynamax abusers (with water / ghost / ground at the top for having both awesome dynamax abusers AND great team composition / synergy). Types like normal, rock and fighting, though not completely garbage solely due to dynamax, are stifled enough by it to where they aren't taken seriously. Right now we stand at a crossroads, where we can either leave Dynamax and ban abusers one by one until the gen ends (similar to gen5 with rain abusers rather than banning drizzle), or we can ban Dynamax outright and actually get on with developing a metagame, rather than hunting for the pokemon that abuses Dynamax the best.

The meta isn't going to be balanced once Dynamax is gone (just ask Excadrill). But by now, I feel like Dynamax favors the attacker so much that complete styles of play (stall, bulky offense, etc.) are clearly inferior to just running an offensive build and hitting the Dynamax button when something looks like it may barely defend against your attacks.
 
After playing a lot of SS Monotype since it came out I've formed my opinion on whether Dynamax should stay or go.

First off I think Dynamax is a really fun mechanic and brings a unique flare to Generation 8. Without Dynamax this metagame is pretty much a budget SM with a bunch of new Pokemon that will become stale after a few months. However, fun doesn't mean healthy. The broken features of Dynamax were already covered a few times above so I won't bother going into any details about them but Choice users being able to switch moves, Double HP, Max Moves setup and sheer power are just too unpredictable, easy to use, and in most cases hard to defend against. I do think that in a metagame where you ban the most threatening abusers like Gyarados, Togekiss etc. that Dynamax can be adapted to and played around, but why ban Pokemon if Dynamax is clearly the problem and would still create scenarios where people have to play mind games every turn. And as Piper said, not every type has the luxury of being able to check strong Dynamax users, meaning that in a metagame where Dynamax stays you would have to limit yourself to using only a couple of types if you want to give yourself the highest chance to win. Banning it will balance out the metagame a lot and increase the quality of games, especially in tournaments. That's why I'm going to go with ban.

Gigantamax being tiered separately doesn't make sense. It sounds like a complex ban and is somewhat similar to type bans.

Some replays
 

Eien

is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
Monotype Leader
It’s disappointing that Dynamax was so overloaded with benefits because it’s the kind of equalizer that helps weaker types compete and beat their weaknesses (see: Z-Moves). What worries me is whether the full potential of Dynamax is being utilized and the extent to which we have to ban Pokémon in order to preserve it in the long run. So, I’d like to call out a different way of using Dynamax.

As an example, I’ve been spamming Dragon lately, and since Dragon isn’t that great against weather, I decided to say fuck it and dedicate my Dragapult to beating Water and Ground for free. I run Agility with Thunder, Solar Beam, and Hydro Pump. No STAB. With this set up, Dragapult outspeeds everything rain uses and can spam 110+ BP moves to break everything in sight. If I have the opportunity, I can Dynamax and hit Seismitoad without charging Solar Beam or use Max Lightning to enable Electric Terrain and break Toxapex. It works similarly against Ground: I can remove their sand with Max Geyser and then instantly nuke Seismitoad after, at which point Hydro Pump just sweeps. Is it reasonable for either team to need to play around such a blatantly cteam strategy? Dragapult has way too many sets for you to really expect anything. But it isn’t the only Pokémon that can do this. Unlike with Z-Moves in SM, I don’t need to dedicate my Z-Crystal to enable one-turn Solar Beam. I can just leave it in my moveset and use or ignore as needed. I have the same Thunderbolt + Solar Beam on Duraludon on Steel, and it doesn’t matter that Duraludon is slower because it takes half damage in Dynamax anyway and completely cripples the Water team. Anything with this coverage can be co-opted to use this kind of strategy and it’s impossible to guess which Pokémon if any are using it at all.

All this is combined with the fact that I have 5 other Pokémon with god knows what sets that can Dynamax and ruin your day. If I’m not against Water or Ground, who cares? I can just Dynamax something else and all I’ve lost is the ability to use U-turn spam on Dragapult. Dynamax is so impactful that being down one Pokémon in other matchups isn’t a serious cost.

This problem is most exacerbated by what we can observe on Flying teams. They can Dynamax any of five non-Xatu sweepers even though some of them are supposed to be “tailored” to particular matchups. Charizard covers Ice and Steel, Corviknight covers Fairy and Psychic, and then you can abuse the power of Gyarados and Hawlucha in pretty much any matchup you choose. As an Ice team, you can’t predict what will Dynamax at all because if Flying gets a single turn to boost Speed, they will use whatever Pokémon just so happens to be on the field right at that moment. And there was no teambuilder cost because Flying just plans to win off of a Dynamax sweep versus literally whatever it finds. It’s the most cookie cutter strategy as a result of Max Airstream being so powerful.

Water takes the entirely opposite approach and finds success as well. None of Water’s threats are reliant on Dynamax, which causes the problem that all of them represent that threat. If nothing needs Dynamax to work, then it really just gets used on whatever happens to need it the most at the time. Dracovish loses Fishious Rend but it gains empowered coverage; Barraskewda is so fast it can sweep without boosts but can always Max Airstream to subsequently outspeed Choice Scarf Gardevoir; Gyarados can easily setup with Dragon Dance without Dynamax but it can also set its own rain or snowball with pseudo-Dragon Dances from Moxie + Max Airstream. Water can just do anything and the lack of reliance makes it that much less predictable.

To me, the problem is not necessarily the damage or the bulk. I am most worried about the sheer unpredictability because there are just so many ways for Dynamax to be used and no way to limit it.

From playing on the ladder a ton on alts, I think there is absolutely a layer of skill in using Dynamax offensively and defensively. Right now, I’m still not sure if that skill can outweigh what I see to be a highly broken mechanic. I’m hoping a lot of people join and have fun in the Welcome tour to help prove it one way or another. So, if you haven’t already, sign up with some of your friends!
 
After finally playing some games, I'm pretty decided on that Dynamax is extremely uncompetitive. Being able to break free of choice lock and being able to Dynamax at any time with any pokemon means you are essentially playing multiple 50/50s until both you and your opponent have used your Dynamax. Comparing it to Shadow tag briefly, a big reason it got the boot was due to the number of 50/50s it creates, and this was only on one type. Trapping isn't the sole reason as to why it was banned as we have always had Dugtrio in the tier, and while I do agree that trapping is uncompetitive to an extent, the 50/50s it causes are the bigger reason STag was banned as short term 50/50s aren't very competitive. Looking at how Dynamax creates many 50/50s in every game, it makes no sense to me that it should remain in the tier.

Gonna use Waszap's example here as I'm too lazy to make another up "An example of this is a Choice Scarf Excadrill vs Toxapex. Now, maybe I'm locked into rock slide because I predicted the Gyarados but my opponent went into Toxapex instead. Now they know I'm scarf, but they also know I can Dynamax, but I also know this information. This exchange leads to so many mind games at each turn where all the fundamentals of checks and counters are thrown out the window. Does the Toxapex user Dynamax into Max Guard? Does the Excadrill user predict this and save it?" This is a type of situation which arises every game until both Dynamaxs have been used. These mind games and 50/50s literally throw the fundamentals of competitive pokemon out the window. The game will more often than not be decided on the couple of turns a user decides to Dynamax which rewards short-term thinking and where frankly, even 'worse' players can kill a couple of your pokemon digging you a hole you can't climb out of if they get the Dynamax turns right. It removes the need for guessing sets and other strategies this game has always required in previous generations. Using Dynamax defensively will always put you on the back foot as it takes away your ability to use recovery moves, and you are forced to attack or protect, which aren't great options considering if you are Dynamaxing defensive pokemon like Toxapex you aren't always going to do a lot of damage. In Waszap's example, Max quake would boost Excadrill's special defense allowing it to take very little from Toxapex. Thus, it always favors the offensive player, as they can nuke things with little to no negative effect to themselves, other than they could be wasting their Dynamax turns. Max moves giving you boosts don't help as sweeping becomes so much easier when you can set terrain/weather/get stat boosts all while doing more damage generally across 3 turns. Banning certain pokemon that are seen as primary abusers wouldn't fix it for me as other pokemon will take their place but the uncompetitive problems that cause 50/50s will remain so I am of the opinion Dynamax should be banned.

Moving on to the topic of Gigamax, I had a different stance a couple of days ago but after thinking about it more I think allowing Gigamax without Dynamax is something we should consider. I'm not sure if this would fall under a complex ban but if not I'm all for testing out Gigamax on its own. I agree with some points made above that the issues of setting terrain/weather/giving boosts will still exist but the unpredictability is gone. As not every pokemon can Gigamax, there won't be nearly as much unpredictability and guesswork, which is the main issue Dynamax creates. I think some Gigamax pokemon will end up being problematic, and we can proceed to suspect and ban them if needed but trying Gigamax alone gives us a chance to keep the big mechanic of Gen 8. To me, allowing Gigamax is similar to having mega-evolutions on a team. Removing the unpredictability of Dynamax will go far in balancing the tier, so I think this is an option that should be considered.
 
Last edited:
After playing SwSh for several days I'm going to lean towards Ban Dynamax, Keep Gigamax.

Just like BW had permanent weather, ORAS had mega evolutions, and SM had Z moves, Dynamaxing and Gigamaxing are the core mechanic of SwSh. I can see why some council or mono staff may be hesitant on banning the Dynamax mechanic for this reason.
Although I don't think the Dynamax mechanic is as broken or unhealthy as a lot of the previous posts, I do agree on some extent. However, I think we should give Gigamaxing a chance.

While there are arguments that Gigamaxing is the same as Dynamaxing, I'll disagree on a few points. (Just noticed a lot of these echo Chait's)
1) Unlike Dynamaxing, Gigamaxing pokemon are set on team preview. This allows more reading and predicting like earlier generations because you can predict what pokemon your opponent will max. You can't just bail yourself out by dynamaxing a random pokemon to steal a win.
2) I believe we can tier Gigamaxing pokemon separately. Currently, with Dynamaxing the only two options we have to fix the noncompetitive nature of a Dynamax pokemon is to either ban the pokemon or to ban dynamaxing. However, with Gigamaxing, pokemon that want to Gigamax need to be set on team preview. So if we deem a certain Gigamax variation of a pokemon too powerful, we can just ban the Gigamax variant and keep the original.
3) Looking at the Gigamaxed pokemon released, not many seem overpowered outright. I'll dwell into some of the more viable ones.
- Gengar - Probably the most threatening one on this list, this could easily be overpowered and could be suspected.
- Charizard - The gigamax variation is arguably weaker than the Dynamax version. You lose the ability to set sun with your new g-max move so you lose damage from solar power. It can set up and gets sun support from Torkoal/Ninetales on Fire but with the lack of good support on both fire and arguably flying, hard to tell at the moment.
- Machamp, Hatterne, Lapras - Yeah, Lapras gets a good G-max move, Hatterne gets trick room, Machamp gets max fight and priority but all these mons are quite slow and have visible flaws. Hard to tell for now.
- Drednaw - It can set up rocks while attacking and abuse swift swim, can't set the rain because ofits gmove but might still be troublesome
- Grimmsnarl - It gets yawn which is good but I wouldn't say broken. The only troublesome thing is that it gets the HP buff. It loses the ability to use any prankster moves during Maxed form which could help its cause to stay.

While I won't say Gigantamax pokemon are healthy or balanced, I do think we should give it a shot to try and tier them separately. If Gigamaxing is deemed just as unhealthy as Dynamaxing, we can ban it then.
 
Last edited:
Alright, I've been playing a bunch of Gen 8 Monotype recently, and I have to put myself firmly in the Ban Dynamax group here. A lot of good points have already been said and I don't want to repeat it just for the sake of repeating it. I do believe that Dynamaxing takes a huge amount of skill out of the equation, simply because of how one dimensional it is. While it has led to some fun and creative sets (I've been using Heat Wave Shiftry to set sun for it and abusing chlorophyll vs Ice, Steel, Ghost, etc) it has also led to the meta being completely hyper offensive, as there is no way to switch in to most anything anymore. Balance, stall, and even bulky offense playstyles are all being wiped out because of this one mechanic. Dynamax's mechanic of ignoring being locked into moves is absurd as well, both for mons that are choice locked or have been taunted/encored. This might have something to do with me not playing well, but the amount of times I've made a good hard read into a mon using Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, Shift Gear, etc with Whimsicott, clicking encore, and then losing because Dynamax just ignores it is absurd. I think too many types simply don't have a good answer to a bunch of mons that can abuse Dynamax. I probably am biased because so far, Grass seems to be one of those, but I think my sentiments have been echoed so far on this thread. Dynamax is unhealthy for the meta, creates a 50-50 the majority of turns in a match, does not reward good counterplay, and should be banned.

PS: I agree with Chait's ideaof the possibilty of allowing Gigamax and suspecting Gigamax mons we feel are unhealthy for the meta because, as he said, it
gives us a chance to keep the big mechanic of Gen 8
 
Last edited:
I vote for BAN in Dynamax.
I am using MonoType Grass and have MANY mons that simply win the game by clicking Dynamax.
You knock out your opponent's Hail Pokémon, but it doesn't matter, any ice comes in and uses Max Hailstorm and goodbye your only form of speed control of the game.
You deal with the enemy's Pelipper, but it doesn't matter, he uses Max Geyser and gets faster than his entire team.
I'm tired of being swept by Corvnight, Butterfree and any Pokémon carrying a flying move just because Max Airstream speeds up and you can do nothing against it.
I had to stop using Encore on my Whinsicott because you hold a mon in a setup move and he then clicks Dyna and sweepa his entire team.
You can predict the right choice in dangerous choice-locked players like Hydreigon, Dragapult and Darmanitam, but if you click Dynamax, you lose 1 or more of your team's Pokémon for free.
Or even, you have a wall that can tank your opponent's Dynamax form, but effects like Max Darkness (Dark) and / or Max Phantasm (Ghost) lower your Pokémon's defenses, regardless of whether to use Protect or not. those likely to be knocked out the next round.

Although I love turning the tables using Max Flare with Heat Wave Shiftry, I bet it must be frustrating for my opponent to be able to handle my Sun Setter but lose because I created Sol attacking at the same time.

Actually, there are some Pokémon that are weak and even Dynamax manageable.
Thanks to Leech Seed + Protect, it is possible to stall some Dynamax pokémon easily, but there are cases where they use and simply sweep their team, especially those with Max Air Stream.

Dynamax forces all types to play offensively, and there are some who can't do it so easily and fall behind.
 
Giving my succinct thoughts on dynamax: this is broken as hell. It was fun for the first couple of days, but now the new toy syndrome has well and truly worn off. Main issue with it, as mentioned by others, is the ability to make every single turn a 50/50. This doesn't just apply offensively i.e. should i dynamax and kill his pex. It also goes the other way: I know his excadrill is going to eq here but should I dynamax and KO him first, thus killing the only pokemon able to threaten me. Such short-term thinking is not the way I would like to see pokemon being played, so I want this mechanic banned.

I believe that the problem of adding way too much bulk + overpowered moves does not go away with gigantamaxing so the core problem remains. The only thing that changes is that you know what will gigantamax, but you still don't know when. For this reason I believe gigantamax is also ban worthy. That being said, I would be open to banning dynamax first and seeing the effect gigantamaxing has in its' absence.
 
Don't have time to write a long post right now, might edit it to be longer later, but I want to make a comment on the people who are saying to keep gigantimax but ban dynamax for the sake of preserving the generation's mechanic. I think that gigantimax is just as banworthy as dynamax, so if dynamax goes then gigantimax should go as well, no banning one while keeping the other, and it being the core mechanic of the generation isn't an excuse to keep it.
 
I think both gigamax and dynamax could very easily be banned without any repercussions, but I am going to argue for the opposite. As time goes on, this low power metagame is going to become dominated by one or two types. After a ban of dynamax and gigamax, the power level of gen 8 will fall somewhere between gens 4 and 5. For this reason, I think that the council should consider dynamax and gigamax as separate mechanics.

One of the best part of gens 6 and 7 was mega evolutions. Mega evolved Pokémon, due to their link to an item, could be banned just like any Pokémon. Weaker types very often kept their most powerful mega evolutions, and they were very often the best Pokémon on their type. The best example of mega evolutions being healthy in the monotype metagame last generation was mega Charizard X on fire. Fire had very few redeeming qualities last generation outside of being the only type able to run the powerhouse of Charizard-X. Mega Charizard was able to steal games from almost every type if given a setup opportunity. Right now, almost every type has a good “mega Charizard x” in the form of dynamax pokemon. The only difference is that it could be any mon, at any moment. If you were going to be swept by a mega Charizard X last generation, you could see it coming at the team preview. If you lost a positive matchup to Charizard X, it was likely due to your own miscalculations. Mega evolutions gave weaker types their powerhouses, and stronger types usually had their own overpowered mega evolutions banned. Dynamax is an unfair mechanic, but gigamax isn’t. Complex bans can be avoided because only certain Pokémon can gigamax, and it is only possible if you activate it in builder.

This is a very quick argument, but I think you get my point. For the sake of conversation, and for the sake of a more balanced metagame, I think that mono council should Ban Dynamax, but Keep Gigamax
 

Havens

aye♪
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Mafia Champion
Short thoughts on the matter, but nothing ya'll haven't heard already: I'll agree with pretty much most people in this thread when I say that Dynamaxing is problematic. Personally the mechanic to me is moreso unhealthy than it is broken; having boosted moves which set weather/terrain/boost stats is helpful for many pokemon, but having the freedom of Dynamaxing a Pokemon without any sort of restrictive requirement involves a whole new level of thinking where you must worry about the opponent's Dynamax at every given time. Yet at the same time, the mechanic permits Pokemon to be walking nukes for three turns, saves Pokemon in the process from the HP buff from moves that would otherwise kill it in base form, allows naturally choice-locked Pokemon to freely switch moves and counteract its conventional checks, and much more. Having a mechanic like this where skill is essentially lessened when using it but requires a high level of thinking to counterplay is not healthy for any competitor to undergo.

Like many others though, I'm interested in the Gigantamax aspect for Monotype. While the natural Dynamax process is unpredictable and the differences between Dynamax and Gigantamax are few and far between, Gigantamax forms being allowed helps to control the unpredictability of the process by limiting it to those select Pokemon, though it still bears the same issue that Dynamax presents in the matter of "When?".
 
It sucks to ban the new gens main gimmick so early in its life but dynamax is really broken and not all that fun to play with tbh. I've found that like 80% of my steel games I just end up going into corviknight, clicking bulk up and max airstreaming/power tripping my way to victory. And when I was using bug there was just no counterplay to any mon that had a flying move.

As for banning dynamax and keeping gigantamax, I don't think that will help either. Some types get multiple really good forms, like steel, which gets corviknight, copperajah and duraludon, none of which really lose all that much other than corv's speed, and other types like electric get fucking pikachu. It's really going to shaft teams without good gmax mons even more than the game already does.

So unfortunately I'm in the ban both camp (just let me keep using Gmax Copperajah).
 
I was sceptical at first but now I realised Dynamax is just not fun to play with or against and can lead to frustration.
I'm on board to ban G-Max too because some types get absolute trash.
 
Originally, I was pro-dynamax, mostly because it was the new gens main gimmick as mentioned above, and I wanted to give it a shot. And while I still think it can be overcome to a degree, it completely overwhelms competitive pokemon, monotype especially. While there are multiple outlying issues, I’ll highlight the few that have been most apparent to my over 300 games played (main+alts) on PS.


Base mechanic: You essentially get 3 Z-Moves while having double health. Lacks counterplay and allows for buffs to be set up way too easily, making it so even if you could predict the dynamax, your options are limited.


Ability to break out of Choice items: This is pretty obviously an overpowered “feature” of dynamaxing. In monotype, this is detrimental. You can easily use a STAB/S-Effective move against the enemies typing, and when they send in checks, you can destroy them with a click of a button. Considering monotype is heavily about checks for opposing types, this takes away from the core of monotype and what it’s all about.


Unpredictability: The unpredictability presented by dynamaxing can remove all value of predictions, one of the most key traits of pokemon, in matches. There is no solid tell tale of when what mon will dynamax, and they can easily set up buffs and wipe mons off your board in the blink of an eye. In turn, most people I have played against either spam prankster-sub or dynamax to counter dynamax, which often ends up favoring the person who dynamaxed first due to the buff from their first move. It turns into a chaotic mess with limited counterplay in the blink of an eye.


Thoughts on G-Max: Same major issues as dynamaxing, and I could argue even more. Certain types have nice G-Max mons. Others, not so much. It still allows you to stack buffs, break out of choice items, tank hits that you should normally not in turn allowing you to destroy checks, etc. If we keep G-Max, there will still be complaints and the viable type pools would shrink.


Conclusion: The lack of counterplay makes dynamax a threat in all tiers, but the issues are even more evident in monotype. Ban Dynamax and G-Max.
 

Decem

die young
is a Community Contributor
I think that Dynamax should definitely go. Pretty much what everyone else said but the mechanic is extremely unhealthy. 3 turns of powerful attacks, 2x HP making things unimaginably bulky, and the ability to anchor the Pokemon and make it immune to phazing, Destiny Bond, flinching, is all just too much for the metagame to stay, as many have observed through the past two weeks. All of these features along with the Max moves make setup extremely hard to check, as we can see in some of the best Dynamax abusers in Gyarados, Togekiss, Excadrill, as well as any other Pokemon because you can do it literally anywhere you want depending on the scenario. Removing the handicap of being choice locked and being able to use at any point in time during the battle basically makes every turn a 50/50 until Dynamax has been used like other people have stated in this thread, because you have to constantly think about whether or not he will Dynamax here or whatnot. I don't think the problem is the Pokemon, it's the mechanic itself that's unhealthy. It's unfortunate that banning the mechanic of the generation will be likely, but it's proven to be pretty stupid and has turned the metagame upside down.

On the topic of Gigantamax, I feel like if Dynamax goes, which it probably will, Gigantamax should go too. Though some of the unpredictability is removed because of Gigantamax is on certain Pokemon, it's the same deal. 3 turns of powerful attacks, 2x HP, the inability to be phazed / flinched / Destiny Bonded is enough to push Gigantamax forms over the edge. Trying to catch when the Gigantamax Pokemon is going to Gigantamax is also present, just like Dynamax. I'm interested to see a meta where Gigantamax is allowed but Dynamax isn't although I doubt it would prove to be adequate.
 
As someone who has played both Dynamax and non Dynamax teams in Generation 8, I believe that there are some fundamental problems with the mechanic.

1. Unpredictability
Unlike Mega Evolution where it was generally quite easy to realise which mon is the opponent’s powerhouse, Dynamax keeps the identity hidden. While z moves were also hidden they were one time ‘nukes’ that could be somewhat prepared for. When facing a gen 8 team I generally can’t tell what mon will Dynamax (unless there is an obvious ‘Gigantimax mon’ there. Because any mon could be dynamaxed even playing perfectly can end in a loss.

2. Runaway Trains
Certain mons take to Dynamaxing more than others. Because certain moves boost stats what was already a threatening Pokemon becomes a runaway freight train that crushes anything in the three turns afford to it. This is particularly evident on mons usually restricted by a choice band or specs. Being able to skip these restraints and gets boosts turn these Pokemon into neigh unstoppable threats, especially in the restricted field of monotype.

3.Restricted Pokemon
Certain types were luckier in Gen 8 in regards to retained mons and new additions. Many types lost core Pokemon they relied on and got either lacklustre replacements or none at all. With the existing restriction of monotype, a lot of mons lost counters or checks. With Dynamax thrown in as well, their are certain matchups which become increasingly difficult to win. Playing mostly Ground and Ghost I found Grass to be an extremely hard counter to the former and Dark/Normal to be increasingly difficult match-ups for the later. With Dynamax some of these matches become impossible to grain traction in let alone win.

As a final note I’d like to ask, when did you last see a balanced team on the gen 8 ladder, or a stall team for that matter. Dynamax forces the ladder to be HO on HO slugfests. While Dynamax isn’t a skillness mechanic, indeed some players likely are quite artful with it, I feel it subtracts from the general skill needed for certain match ups.

As such I believe the mechanic should be suspected at the very least and personally believe it should be banned.
 
I think we can all agree that Dynamax in its current state is broken, and something should be done about it.

A popular proposal is to ban Dynamax while keeping Gigantamax, and tiering the Gigantamax Pokemon accordingly. This allows people to identify which Pokemon on the opponent's team will Gigantamax and play accordingly with that valuable information. However, Gigantamax as a mechanic is barely different from Dynamax. If Dynamax is deemed broken, uncompetitive or unhealthy, Gigantamax should be too.

Frankly I really just want to preserve Dynamax somehow, so here's how I think it can be done:
Allow Dynamax but restrict it to one Pokemon in teambuilder, and let both players know which Pokemon they plan to Dynamax.

This addresses the unpredictability of current Dynamax, similar to allowing only Gigantamax. While this definitely isn't a perfect solution, as Dynamax itself is still extremely strong, I believe it will at the very least give Dynamax a chance to stay as a mechanic that defines the generation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top