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Election 2008, United States

Who would you vote for if the presidential race is held now?

  • Barack Obama

    Votes: 415 72.4%
  • John McCain

    Votes: 130 22.7%
  • Other (Please specify)

    Votes: 28 4.9%

  • Total voters
    573
Imo the whole "foreign degrees are worthless" is just stupid in general - are they just assuming it because it's from a third world country or is it because they actually looked at the curricula.

(i for one would be pissed as fuck if my SO's college education was worthless in the states because she lives in a "third world country")

There's some level of paranoia about foreign medical degrees in Australia, too. Indian doctors seem to be the main target of the fear in general. I don't know why specifically India, although I imagine it has something to do with some bad experiences with some Indian doctors - there was one individual (Whose name escaped me) who got on the news pretty regularly after his incompetence killed tens of patients. He then fled to the US - I think he even managed to open a practice there, too. Not sure what happened to him after that.

You should look up healthcare in Australia - it's probably similar to Canada, in that we've got a public system and private system, with the idea being that the public system guarantees healthcare for all, and the private system is where people go if they want high-quality healthcare. If the free market is so good, it should be able to provide a better quality of healthcare than the public sector, right? :P

I don't know a great deal about the French healthcare system, although I do know it's considered one of the best in the world. From the Wikipedia page, it seems everyone has a sort of "Healthcare tax", unless they earn less than some threshold, and then they have a sort of nationalised insurance. They go to a doctor, pay for care, and then can claim a high percentage of it back from the national healthcare insurance. That's just my interpretation of the wiki article, mind.
 
I want to jump back and move from a point a little bit earlier that I think sums up the way a lot of opponents of socialized health care think about the issue.

Ancien Régime said:
Nobody is advocating that people pay for police services. But what people on the Right advocate is that as much be left to the (so much more efficient it's ridiculous) private sector as possible, and let government provide only those the private sector can't or would have difficulty providing - defense, infrastructure, public safety and so forth.

The issue here is that health care is something that the private sector is having a lot of difficulty providing, and the reason can go back to a simple conflict of interest. In a US style health insurance system, the people who really control the average person's access to health care (the insurance companies) have it in their best interest to provide as little care as possible to people who are in bad health. Like, if you have a 90% chance of dying from a condition, and an expensive treatment can reduce it to 50%, the insurance company's obvious best interest is to fight providing you that treatment, and there are countless horror stories of them doing just that. The actual cost to pay for any non-minor treatment is completely ludicrous as well so if the insurance company doesn't pay for it your personal assets become a concern. How many people actually have hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay for medical treatment out of pocket? Even if you're well off, that will totally wreck your financial future, but for most people it's just impossible.

That being said, it is true that the private sector will probably provide a higher quality of care for those able to pay the price than anything that a socialized system can ever offer, and I can't dispute that there is likely to be a systematic inverse relation between the quality of care and the breadth of coverage offered by the system. The current US approach, with the exception of the pretty limited Medicare and Medicaid, is one that leans toward quality over widespread coverage. Obama's proposals are pretty in-line with the Canadian system; he wants to maintain the private sector while expanding the public one. The idea, which no politician would own up to, is that a socialized system would provide acceptable care, but there would be a co-existing private system necessary for exceptional care (but that would be expensive to use). It probably sounds heartless, but I doubt we'll find better. I definitely support this style of system.

I should also point out that "government" already has a big hand in the medical industry. The whole prescription drug system uses restrictive government granted monopolies (patents) and restrictive laws governing drug markets (doctor prescriptions required, registered pharmacists required) to sharply limit the avenues through which patients can purchase the drugs. Like with the other case, this is a situation where power is put in the government's hands instead of the private sector's hands in order to obtain a trade-off. People are less likely to use inappropriate drugs, and drug companies make tons of money that could be prudently invested in research. The downside is a small curtailment of liberty and an enormous financial burden on people who depend on those drugs, especially the elderly (the AARP isn't kidding when they go on about prescription drugs; it really dominates the finances for a lot of old people). The government also forces hospitals to provide financially unsound services (admitting poor people to the emergency room), and it forces doctors to go through a lengthy process before they are allowed to practice. I've never seen a conservative person complain about these things, but the "private sector" in medicine is nothing at all like a typical free market; it's completely defined by very restrictive government regulations.

Of course, depending on your perspective, the results aren't bad either way. This is an issue that has a lot more than two sides to it, and there are good arguments for it all over the place. I think in terms of moving ahead practically, Obama's plan is the right plan for the times. It maintains a lot of our current advantages while minimizing some of our current disadvantages, and it works toward what I feel is a modern society's moral duty on the matter to ensure that no one is ever told they have to die because they don't have money.
 
On this point in particular with Canadian health care:

Wait times appear to be a problem because of a certain bad policy as much as anything else. There is something of a flood of perfectly legitimate doctors who have immigrated to Canada from India, with perfectly legitimate medical degrees, who want to practice medicine in Canada, but are seriously being barred from doing so. As far as I can tell, this reason is solely bureaucratic and fear-based, and not borne out of any legitimate concern with the quality of their education.

Perhaps some Canadian smogoners can chime in here.
The "foreign degrees are worthless" thing has always pissed me off but I'm not sure as to why they do that. I know a large problem is that our doctors just go south of the border to make a LOT more money and less taxes rather than stay here.

They don't go to the private clinics for "better quality care" really. They pay for less wait time. Again, this is due to our doctor and nurse shortage.
 
as a canadian who has worked as a standardized patient with countless doctors wanting to practice here from india/wherever "foreign", i guess i can stand by our process as far as it's rigour in testing communication.

i think being able to communicate openly with your doctor is incredibly important and the fact is people have a harder time communicating with people who are less fluent in their language. Sure that's "fear-based" but it's based in something.

I dunno. honestly i don't see the point in making foreign doctors jump through hoops as far as doctor knowledge goes, but you can't really discredit that it's harder to talk to someone about health problems when you're not sure they're understanding you / vice versa. maybe i'm giving communication too much importance vs actual care though.
 
In Senate news, the race for the Minnesota Senator is unbelievably close. Norm Coleman is leading Al Franken by a mere 236 votes, and it's not over yet.
 
Anyone know why Missouri hasn't been called for either McCain or Obama yet?

I know it's meaningless in the long run, but even North Carolina had a winner declared...
 
Are you saying that Obama won this election because all the black people voted for him?

You do know that under 15% of the population is black right?


No, I'm saying that probably helped. ;_;

And the fact that most people voted for him because of race... yeah. No further explanation needed.
 
I'm here in missouri and the reason we haven't decided is because were on the line of a racist revolt.
Sephiroth, People like me were for obama because of our views.
We can't deny that he got a few votes because he's black, but he got the majority of his votes from flat out supporters who don't want 4 more years of another dumbass, greedy president
 
Anyone know why Missouri hasn't been called for either McCain or Obama yet?

I know it's meaningless in the long run, but even North Carolina had a winner declared...

Missouri has a large number of provisional ballots, so in theory, Obama could still win (McCain's margin is only 6,000 votes). However, this is incredibly unlikely. That said, the networks are afraid of calling it wrong and having egg on their faces like many did in 2000 when they called Florida too early.
 
Yeah, there are more provisional ballots to be counted than the current margin. The ballots won't be counted until next week, from what I hear. Many of them are from St. Louis County and Kansas City, though, both of which are Democrat strongholds. Still, Obama would have to get ~93% of those ballots (assuming they're all accepted) to win the state--probably not gonna happen.

I'm from Springfield, Missouri, BTW.
 
Begich has surged ahead of Stevens (by 3 votes) in the Alaska absentee ballot counting. They aren't finished yet, and most of the uncounted ballots are expected to favor Begich.
 
Doesn't it still strike you as odd that the race between Stevens and Beigich is this close at all, considering that Stevens has been convicted of corruption charges a week before the election? Or perhaps does this, along with McCain's massive 62% - 36% lead (5% larger than initial projections) indicate that Alaska is so conservative that they would rather vote for a Republican -- Even Ted Stevens over a Democrat?
 
Considering how Republican-leaning the votes usually are in Alaska, I'd actually call this a step in the right direction.





...Nah, I'm just kidding. People are voting for a convicted politician! That's utterly reprehensible.
 
Not to mention turnout is way down from 2004 and Begich was polling as much as +22 in the post-conviction pre-election polling. This is absolutely ridiculous.
 
I suspect there were a variety of effects that depressed turnout, including the polling that showed both Begich and Berkowitz (and, for that matter, McCain) winning in walks.
 
Principle says "don't vote in convicted felons" but in reality, if Stevens wins it just means another, hopefully less corrupt Republican *coughsarahpalincough* gets in. And I'm sure Alaska voters are aware of this.

I know nothing about Begich but I'd be willing to bet he'd be like Nelson of Nebraska - he'll vote against the Dems half the time.
 
Principle says "don't vote in convicted felons" but in reality, if Stevens wins it just means another, hopefully less corrupt Republican *coughsarahpalincough* gets in. And I'm sure Alaska voters are aware of this.

I know nothing about Begich but I'd be willing to bet he'd be like Nelson of Nebraska - he'll vote against the Dems half the time.

To be honest, I am not sure which I would dislike more -- Stevens or Palin.
 
Well... Palin is currently less corrupt than Stevens. I imagine any Alaskan Senator is going to be pressured to bring back the pork for the state. Alaska is America's welfare state.
 
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