Espeon

[AccidentalGreed]

Max speed hp fire doesn't exist, right?

Nope. A Pokemon can't reach its full potential in Speed if it runs a Hidden Power that lowers Speed, and in this case, that's Hidden Power Fire. That's why people have to take caution if Hidden Power Fire is gonna be used on their teams.

On one hand, Espeon can be EV'd to outspeed base 105's or 100's or 90's. One the other, Fire Espeon can still opt to run Max Speed in order to pivot off the Musketeer trio, Scyther, Ursaring, Mismagius, and Infernape.

 

[Ubermensch]

I'm using this set successfully:

Espeon@Light Clay
Timid
Magic Mirror
252 HP/40 Def/216 Spe
Light Screen
Reflect
Fake Tears
Psychic


Come in on something that it outspeeds and use the relevant Screen, then set up the next Screen on the switch. At that point, use Fake Tears on the opponent's "counter". Even without any SpAtk EV's, STAB Psychic hits really hard, the so the opponent must either switch or die. This is best with SR and multiple layers of spikes to take advantage of the switches. Magic Mirror prevents the opponent from statusing or setting up their own entry hazards on you.

Of course, he has no way to heal himself, but with Chansey's Wish support (Chansey is untouchable with dual screens up) he can stay alive for quite a while.

 

[Sajak]

I'm using this set successfully:

Espeon@Light Clay
Timid
Magic Mirror
252 HP/40 Def/216 Spe
Light Screen
Reflect
Fake Tears
Psychic


Come in on something that it outspeeds and use the relevant Screen, then set up the next Screen on the switch. At that point, use Fake Tears on the opponent's "counter". Even without any SpAtk EV's, STAB Psychic hits really hard, the so the opponent must either switch or die. This is best with SR and multiple layers of spikes to take advantage of the switches. Magic Mirror prevents the opponent from statusing or setting up their own entry hazards on you.

Of course, he has no way to heal himself, but with Chansey's Wish support (Chansey is untouchable with dual screens up) he can stay alive for quite a while.

You might want to use an attack that doesn't have an immunity, or at least hits Dark types. T-Tar will love to switch in, and Fake Tears won't do anything to force it out unless you can hurt it. Shadow Ball might be better (I don't think any normal type can use Pursuit, and if it's Blissey/Chansey, Espeon has no business staying anyway), and while it won't do much damage to T-Tar, after a Fake Tears it should be able to do something even with Sandstorm boosting it's SpD back up a little.

 

[Banryu]

Nope. A Pokemon can't reach its full potential in Speed if it runs a Hidden Power that lowers Speed, and in this case, that's Hidden Power Fire. That's why people have to take caution if Hidden Power Fire is gonna be used on their teams.

On one hand, Espeon can be EV'd to outspeed base 105's or 100's or 90's. One the other, Fire Espeon can still opt to run Max Speed in order to pivot off the Musketeer trio, Scyther, Ursaring, Mismagius, and Infernape.

Speaking for myself, if I'm running Espeon, I wouldn't be satisfied with just reflecting Nattorei/Forry/Skarm's entry hazards, I'd want them out of the way so I don't have to worry about them trying anything again. In this regard, getting imperfect Speed with HP Fire is totally worth it, IMO. If you're running a more defensive/supportive set, or a sweeper, then max Speed is much more important, but on the one I'm thinking of it acts like sort of an offensive/support utility Pokemon, for which you don't necessarily need max Speed.

 

[Drawler]

You might want to use an attack that doesn't have an immunity, or at least hits Dark types. T-Tar will love to switch in, and Fake Tears won't do anything to force it out unless you can hurt it. Shadow Ball might be better (I don't think any normal type can use Pursuit

A few can, the most notable of which is Snorlax.

 

[ShyGuy1221]

Is wish compatible with magic mirror? I have heard it is not because all the Eeveelutions found in the dream world are male and therefore cannot breed abillities.

 

[Enlong]

I was thinking about using Echo Voice with Espeon. A move that can build up to 200 base power is nothing to sneeze at, especially with Espeon's Special Attack and a Calm Mind or two.

Now, obviously, using it repeatedly will draw out your opponent's Ghost-types like nothing else. Which is when you switch to Shadow Ball.

 

[Athenodoros]

Yes, but as with anything like that, it will probably take too long to get to 200 base power to be of any use. And counters like Tyranitar will still walk all over you.

 

[Enlong]

Actually, Echo Voice gets powerful pretty fast. Its power increases by 40 with each consecutive use: the third use has a power of 120, for example.

Though I suppose Grass Knot might be a better choice, as it takes out Tyranitar. Though that still leaves her walled by Steel types. Hm.

So it's a choice between being walled by Steel types, and having a move with variable power, or being walled by both Steel types and Tyranitar, and having a move with increasing power.

 

[Jaroda]

The point is, with Espeon's defenses you'll never get that high in the first place. It already takes at least 75% from most neutral STAB attacks, if not outright OHKOd.

 

[Citizen]

And Grass Knot won't be taking out a Tyranitar any time soon

 

[Enlong]

You sure? I used a damage calculator just now. Assuming an Espeon with max Special Attack, and a Tyranitar with little investment in Special Defense (which is mostly what I saw on his entry 'round these parts), Grass Knot will do 358 damage to a level 100 Tyranitar on average.

Depending on the investment put into his HP, that could very well KO a Tyranitar.

Unless I've missed something obvious.

edit:

Oh wait, duh. The special defense boost in a Sandstorm. That is indeed something obvious.

 

[Citizen]

Yeah, you got that right. Tyranitar is a pretty formidable special wall even with little to no investment in Special Defense, thanks to his typing. Even in the most favorable circumstances for Espeon (Specs, Modest, 252, 31 which is probably never happening anyway) and a ScarfTar with no HP or Special Defence Evs, it is still doing not enough to KO, doing roughly 99% AT MOST. And Espeon is never Modest or Choiced, while Tar is more commonly a bit more bulky and ScarfTar becoming rarer and rarer. Shadow Ball and Psychic do jack all as well, even after numerous Calm Minds. Espeon is always screwed if Tar is switched in on it, even if it runs HP Fighting or something. Not only does it fail to KO once again, using more realistic and common Espeon sets, but it's also a waste if you consider the potential within his movepool.

 

[Enlong]

Right. So if Tyranitar switches in, the only recourse for Espeon is to switch out and hope that Pursuit doesn't murder him.

But I'm getting the idea that Espeon is screwed against Tyranitar whether or not he carries Grass Knit. Are there any other 'mons for which Espeon should run Grass Knot instead of Echo Voice?

 

[Citizen]

Yeah, pretty much. Usually when a Tyranitar is switched in immediately into an Espeon, it's intentions are to Pursuit it. If you try to stay in, you can actually win though. Grass Knot is almost always a 2HKO, while Pursuit will only OHKO if Tar is Banded, but that's never used. Espeon will just survive if it is at full HP and the Tar is of a more common variety, and can outspeed and KO the next turn. But if you switch, you're screwed no matter how bulky you are.

For example, Jolly Scarftar does 80 to 94% to a very unlikely 252/252 Bold Espeon.

Grass Knot also has other uses, namely wiping the floor with Physically Bulky Hippowdon, Swampert, Quagsire (who can come in with Unaware and ignore Calm Mind boosts) and Suicune and other pokemon that Psychic wouldn't be doing as much to.

 

[Boorego]

Yeah, I always put either reflect or Substitute on all my espeon so that I can switch out of scarf tyranitar at least once safetly.

 

[Enlong]

Yeah, OK.

...Togekiss would make a more effective user of Echo Voice, anyway.

 

[lmitchell0012]

I'm using this set successfully:

Espeon@Light Clay
Timid
Magic Mirror
252 HP/40 Def/216 Spe
Light Screen
Reflect
Fake Tears
Psychic


Come in on something that it outspeeds and use the relevant Screen, then set up the next Screen on the switch. At that point, use Fake Tears on the opponent's "counter". Even without any SpAtk EV's, STAB Psychic hits really hard, the so the opponent must either switch or die. This is best with SR and multiple layers of spikes to take advantage of the switches. Magic Mirror prevents the opponent from statusing or setting up their own entry hazards on you.

Of course, he has no way to heal himself, but with Chansey's Wish support (Chansey is untouchable with dual screens up) he can stay alive for quite a while.

Let's face it, espeon's not damaging dark types, and I doubt it will be doing so any time soon. It's best to pair this set with something that can take care of those annoying dark types, like ropushin or something. I was going to say lucario (because of justice heart) but if they use pursuit (which is one of the most common dark type attacks) he won't get the boost. But still, if you can switch into a crunch/payback/dark pulse you're good :-).

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Let's face it, espeon's not damaging dark types, and I doubt it will be doing so any time soon. It's best to pair this set with something that can take care of those annoying dark types, like ropushin or something. I was going to say lucario (because of justice heart) but if they use pursuit (which is one of the most common dark type attacks) he won't get the boost. But still, if you can switch into a crunch/payback/dark pulse you're good :-).

If Lucario survives,then yes.
Heart of Justice isn't an immunity.

 

[BurningMan]

If Lucario survives,then yes.
Heart of Justice isn't an immunity.

Lucario is 4x resistant and while he isn't bulky he is able to take even BandTars Crunches all day long.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Right. So if Tyranitar switches in, the only recourse for Espeon is to switch out and hope that Pursuit doesn't murder him.

But I'm getting the idea that Espeon is screwed against Tyranitar whether or not he carries Grass Knit. Are there any other 'mons for which Espeon should run Grass Knot instead of Echo Voice?

Let's face it, espeon's not damaging dark types, and I doubt it will be doing so any time soon. It's best to pair this set with something that can take care of those annoying dark types, like ropushin or something. I was going to say lucario (because of justice heart) but if they use pursuit (which is one of the most common dark type attacks) he won't get the boost. But still, if you can switch into a crunch/payback/dark pulse you're good :-).

I find Baton Pass is very useful here - it is really the only thing Espeon can do to deal with Tyranitar (and Scizor if you're not running HP Fire, which I think is an invaluable attack, on Espeon seeing as it likes coming in on Natt/Forry so much) and it bypasses slower Pursuits (ScarfTar will only hit you for non-switching damage). Paired up with any Heart of Justice user, you can actually use an opposing Pursuiter to your advantage.

 

[Barilzar]

I find Baton Pass is very useful here - it is really the only thing Espeon can do to deal with Tyranitar (and Scizor if you're not running HP Fire, which I think is an invaluable attack, on Espeon seeing as it likes coming in on Natt/Forry so much) and it bypasses slower Pursuits (ScarfTar will only hit you for non-switching damage). Paired up with any Heart of Justice user, you can actually use an opposing Pursuiter to your advantage.

Does it's new ability work when you baton pass to espeon?

 

[Enlong]

What, Magic Mirror?

I think that so long as Espeon is on the field when the status/hazard move is used, then yeah.

 

[Banryu]

Tyranitar switching into Fake Tears or Yawn gets screwed, though.

Assuming DW Espy can be female... as far as I know, that still hasn't been clarified yet. o___0

 

[IcyMan28]

I've found Reflect to be a decent option on Espeon, helping it deal with Tyranitar and Scizor while providing team support:

Espeon@Leftovers
Timid; 248 HP / 16 Def / 244 Spe

- Reflect
- HP Fire
- Baton Pass / Protect
- Psychic / Psycho Shock

Espeon likes its speed, let's be real. The speed EVs thus allow it to outpace the horse trio + Infernape, hitting them with a STAB Psychic attack. 4 EVs are moved from HP to Speed to account for HP Fire, with the leftovers thrown into defense.

Reflect is a great move to use when Espeon is first sent out. Behind the screen, it takes

252 Atk Jolly Tyranitar Crunch vs. 248 / 16 +2 Espeon: (59.88% - 70.66%)
252 Atk Jolly Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 248 / 16 +2 Espeon: (30.54% - 35.93%)
252 Atk Adamant CBScizor BP vs. 248 / 16 +2 Espeon: (35.93% - 42.51%)
252 Atk Adamant CBScizor Pursuit vs. 248 / 16 +2 Espeon: (47.90% - 56.89%)

Basically, Espeon is sheltered from any attack these trappers can use against it. With Baton Pass, you survive ScarfTar's Crunch and escape, and avoid even a 2HKO from Scizor's Bullet Punch. Other Pursuit users, being slower, are not an issue.

Meanwhile, Espeon has reflected their hazards and is threatening to attack with HP Fire / Psychic. HP Fire lets it do something to Natty / Forry / Skarm, and Psychic STAB is useful for hitting the likes of Kerudio and Rohbshin. Psychic is better for Rohbshin, Breloom, Infernape, Terakion, and unboosted Kerudio, while boosted Kerudio, Tentacruel, and Virizion (rare, I know) take more from Psycho Shock; I would go with the former.