Serious Ethics of euthanasia

[madrhetoric06]

I believe that if a person is of sound mind, then euthanasia should be optional to them.

Granted, most people view that wanting to kill yourself is proof that you are mentally incapable of making sound decisions. With younger people choosing suicide to escape it all, I can kind of understand this. But for people who were explained in the original post, maybe.

 

[Stratos]

this is a religious issue.

literally, i mean. those of us who think life is a Super Special Gift given by a Magical Creator Who Loves Us All will see suicide as a crime of the highest degree, while those of us who see life as a coincidence without inherent meaning have no problem permitting people end theirs on a whim.

obviously it would be better if we could find cures to terminal illnesses -- but that's a long-term solution. the short-term solution to reduce suffering is euthanasia. (then again, "life is a terminal illness")

uh what

no this isn't a religious issue this is a people who want to commit suicide should get help and rehabilitation not a magical end-it-all pill issue. except in cases of certain terminal illnesses, the decision to end one's own life is almost always hasty, short-sighted, and painful to both the person and their family. people who attempt suicide and go on, recover from their depression, and find better circumstances never look back and go "damn do i wish i'd succeeded."

oh and @DM, basically, my first post on this topic was in response to yours in the Debate Thread so if you haven't already read that then reading it would be swell

 

[elcheeso]

As far as I see it, if an illness isn't terminal, it shouldn't be under the scope of euthanasia. People who seriously think that someone with depression or some other mental illness should be told "Your decision is rational and I will help you end your life," are most likely terrible people. C'mon. The suggestion seems to be that people who otherwise wouldn't die if their illness was treated are worth less than the cost of said treatment.

Do the lives of others mean so little to you? You can wrap it all up in bullshit like autonomy, but I believe that reasoning can only ever come from someone who has never been depressed (again, mental illness, not "I'm sad"), is currently depressed and not getting treatment, or has never actually attempted suicide. Or you know, had other similar problems.

Twenty-seven studies comprising 3275 suicides were included, of which, 87.3% (SD 10.0%) had been diagnosed with a mental disorder prior to their death.

 

[capefeather]

I think what Umbreon Dan was getting at was that we should get past the debate as to whether killing yourself is wrong or not, and focus on the real issues, like why people commit suicide in the first place and how to address that.

 

[superbadd]

I think what Umbreon Dan was getting at was that we should get past the debate as to whether killing yourself is wrong or not, and focus on the real issues, like why people commit suicide in the first place and how to address that.

The arrogance in most people is that they'd like to think of themselves as above any type of animal. Yet when there is a behavior that transcends that(I.E. suicide), suddenly people assume there is something "wrong" with you. Our behavior is so simplistic, we do things for two reasons, to please ourselves, or to survive. Everything fits into those two categories. Yet suicide doesn't fit into those two. Instead of understanding why that's the case, we reject it and try to morph it into a generic ideology. Just as a side note, arguing about morals is no different than arguing about opinions. Saying you have better morals than someone else is like saying your opinion is better, just because there are no concrete foundations for scrupulosity. It's absurd. Like wise, the whole aspect of being "immoral", is just as ridiculous. The more sentimental attachments you hold, the less logical your reasoning will be.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

no this isn't a religious issue this is a people who want to commit suicide should get help and rehabilitation not a magical end-it-all pill issue.

this is an example of how religion, to its adherents, is inseparable from fact. i cannot argue with your line of reasoning without you completely adjusting your worldview, and that's not for this thread.

except in cases of certain terminal illnesses, the decision to end one's own life is almost always hasty, short-sighted, and painful to both the person and their family.

note that making hasty, short-sighted, painful decisions is not illegal (and nor is assisting other people to make them).

people who attempt suicide and go on, recover from their depression, and find better circumstances never look back and go "damn do i wish i'd succeeded."

egregious sampling bias. yes, those people who go on to live happy and fulfilling lives will be glad that they didn't succeed. but -- lots of people fail, and then succeed on a future suicide attempt, because it's what they want. furthermore, we've no information on whether those who succeeded would reverse the decision, given the choice.

suicide is a matter of utmost personal liberty. if the state can tell you what you can't do with your own body, then your body is the property of the state, because you're allowed to destroy your own property.

 

[cookie]

suicide is a matter of utmost personal liberty. if the state can tell you what you can't do with your own body, then your body is the property of the state, because you're allowed to destroy your own property.

newsflash: the state already does, just to varying degrees. There are certain things you are not allowed to do for the sake of allowing the perpetuation of the society that affords you certain protections and rights. Now, having said that I don't think allowing a terminally ill patient to put an end to their own misery is in conflict with that, especially since they'll put a lower strain on services.

If people could just kill themselves when they felt like it this could have some undesirable consequences.

 

[Iceydude168]

Personally I'd rather take an IV and die a quick, painless death at the end of the road. To all those who'd rather watch me die a slow, agonizing death through the span of several years:

HUGE UNNECESSARY PICTURE

Prerequesites for euthanasia (these were more or less stated through the thread already, but whatever):
-Person has to be of sound mind
-Person must be an adult
-Illness must be terminal
-3 or more family/friends must sign forms saying they support your decision (3 was an arbitrary number but it seems about right)

Why religion should play into this is beyond me; if you aren't religious and have a right to your own body you should be allowed to do this.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

If people could just kill themselves when they felt like it this could have some undesirable consequences.

people can already kill themselves whenever they feel like it. "anti-suicide" laws are more unenforceable than anti-drug laws. if an adult decided, right now, that it was time for them to kill themself, do you think there's a damn thing the government could do about it?

if it were completely legalized, the suicide rate would stay exactly the same.

 

[Shinryu]

Personally, I think if someone wants to off themselves, they have every right to. Could it be called selfish? Sure in some cases, but you know what, at the end of the day it's up to them to decide what they want to do with their life and they're making a permanent choice to check out now rather than hang around. Either that or you get to the point where they choose a more painful/violent way of checking out, or in some cases, the ones who would like to suicide by cop or go on a killing spree and such. Like Umbreon Dan said, the suicide rate would likely stay they same regardless.

As for all the reports with suicidal people having some sort of mental disorder, guess what? Normalcy is in the eye of the beholder and whatever "society" deems "normal", hell you could literally probably find every single person on the planet suffering from some sort of mental disorder if you wanted to dig hard enough.

 

[tape]

i should keep this short.

ive always thought that all-inclusive euthanasia should be legalized, but you should go some sort of probation period, and not make it something that you just go and die relatively fast. like give you a month or three to see if, i dont know, you really want to die. there are a lot of suicide cases that are tried and/or succeeded that stem from a hasty impulse.

 

[RosebloomNixie]

I still think that suicide should be entirely legal as well. The whole issue comes down to whether or not you think life is more important than anything else.

People have different capacities when dealing with types of pain be they emotional or physical and if someone is full to their capacity, why make them suffer more because of a religious ideology?

 

[Gabe]

I'm for it. If somebody wants to die, it's not my business because I don't intend to devote my life to making it livable for them.

 

[capefeather]

Personally, I think if someone wants to off themselves, they have every right to.

[...]

As for all the reports with suicidal people having some sort of mental disorder, guess what? Normalcy is in the eye of the beholder and whatever "society" deems "normal", hell you could literally probably find every single person on the planet suffering from some sort of mental disorder if you wanted to dig hard enough.

I agree in a sense that people should generally have the "right" to die. (Whatever that even means... I mean what are they going to do if I don't have the "right" and I off myself anyway?) However, I disagree with this generalizing attitude toward all suicides. It's true that society arbitrarily dictates a good deal of morality and normalcy, but going past all that is the suffering factor. If I were suffering from "something" that caused me to consider suicide as the best option, but there existed an alternative where I was both alive and not suffering, who's to say I shouldn't be compelled in some way toward that alternative? Whatever we've arbitrarily decided as a society, we have a universal, probably evolutionary sense that dying is a "bad thing". If we don't even consider something as fundamental as that as a basis for how society should operate, well, what is the basis behind anything? What is the meaning of anything?

I'm not suggesting that you have to agree with anything that I would consider fundamental. However, if you're disagreeing just because it's just some arbitrary thing I've decided, then you'll never come to an agreement with anyone... unless of course you secretly do agree with someone else's fundamental values.

 

[Turtle Soup]

I think it's up to the person if they want to live or die. If they're only going to suffer, are turned in to a vegetable or are damaged in a way that they will never return to the way they were before I can agree with it. I actually told my relatives if such would happen to me they should let me go.

On the note of suicide if something happen that will completely run the rest of their lives and make it unlivable for them I can also agree with it. However if it's something that can be overcome with time and will, mostly emotional things etc. I do not agree with it. I still think they have the right to do it, however I'm not going think them "weak" and not going to pity them for a moment. You might think it's cruel but that's my stand on it.

 

[DM]

-3 or more family/friends must sign forms saying they support your decision (3 was an arbitrary number but it seems about right)

No. Yet again, you are taking away that person's ability to make their own decision. If I want to kill myself, it will undoubtedly cause my family some suffering. But who gives a shit what they want? My life, my body, is to do with what I please.

Why religion should play into this is beyond me; if you aren't religious and have a right to your own body you should be allowed to do this.

Religion plays into this because religion is why killing yourself used to be illegal just about everywhere. People thought by criminalizing the act, they could deter attempted suicide. Suicide sends people who perpetrate it to hell, and the religious folk wanted their loved ones to avoid hell at all costs.

EDIT:

uoh and @DM, basically, my first post on this topic was in response to yours in the Debate Thread so if you haven't already read that then reading it would be swell

Sorry, but I can't be arsed to go find it. If you could give me the cliffnotes, I'd love to address them.

 

[Stratos]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4479998&postcount=9

oh this also applies to everyone saying that allowing assisted suicide won't change anything - i think that far more people will be willing to follow through with suicide if it gets less gruesome

 

[Turtle Soup]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4479998&postcount=9

oh this also applies to everyone saying that allowing assisted suicide won't change anything - i think that far more people will be willing to follow through with suicide if it gets less gruesome

If the pain factor was the one stopping you then I think you probably weren't actually that serious, of course people wary s you might have been, but usually when someones contemplating suicide they are already going through so much physical or emotional pain that that couple of seconds of suffering really wouldn't make a difference.
Also do you really think if for example I put my 12 gauge in to my mouth with a hard slug in it and pulled the trigger I would have time to feel anything?

 

[DM]

Oh, you meant in this thread. Sorry, I thought you meant your post was in that other, older thread.

Are we talking assisted suicide or unplug?

If we're talking the latter, then yeah i can see why people would say that and I frankly dont have anything wrong with it I doubt anyone does end discussion

But assisted suicide is a HELL NO to me. Suicide is gruesome and painful and I want to keep it that way. Once upon a time I was depressed (prolly just being a little bitch but irrelevant) and seriously contemplated suicide. The #1 thing that deterred me from the option wasn't that my family would be messed up or anything, it was "jesus christ suicide kinda just sucks to do, i mean do you know how much that would /hurt?/" And no, not everyone going through depression is gonna commit suicide, and suicide is awful, so let's not make it easier.

How is assisted suicide for a terminally ill person so much different from a living will/DNR? At my law office, the health care proxy we use includes a living will that states the agent cannot withdraw feeding tubes or artificial breathing/heartbeats until 2 doctors have declared the patient beyond all hope of recovery. If someone has cancer and is told by multiple, reputed doctors that they have 3 months to live and will spend those 3 months in agony, why shouldn't they be allowed to opt out?

Gruesome and painful? According to whom? I find nothing especially gruesome about someone being put to sleep by a machine, then slowly given an injection that gently stops their heart function. They don't feel a thing when they pass. It's not as if they're being put down by lethal injection like a death row prisoner would (which, studies show, may actually be excruciatingly painful).

 

[Stratos]

Oh, you meant in this thread. Sorry, I thought you meant your post was in that other, older thread.



How is assisted suicide for a terminally ill person so much different from a living will/DNR? At my law office, the health care proxy we use includes a living will that states the agent cannot withdraw feeding tubes or artificial breathing/heartbeats until 2 doctors have declared the patient beyond all hope of recovery. If someone has cancer and is told by multiple, reputed doctors that they have 3 months to live and will spend those 3 months in agony, why shouldn't they be allowed to opt out?

Gruesome and painful? According to whom? I find nothing especially gruesome about someone being put to sleep by a machine, then slowly given an injection that gently stops their heart function. They don't feel a thing when they pass. It's not as if they're being put down by lethal injection like a death row prisoner would (which, studies show, may actually be excruciatingly painful).

I'm sorry, the latter part of my post was referring not to people with terminal illnesses but people who were perfectly healthy but wanted to end their lives for other reasons, i guess i should have made that more clear.

 

[Turtle Soup]

Lethal injections are terrible. Have you ever seen a dog getting put down? You would think they get get an injection and just go to sleep. Well that's definitely not what happens. Poor things whining for like 10 minutes straight and has to be held down because he's going crazy, that stuffs hearth breaking. To tell the truth the guillotine was probably the most humane execution...

 

[DM]

Actually, that would be the firing squad. All the bullets pass right through the heart, the victim dies within 10-15 seconds. Decapitated heads have been known to live up to 2-3 minutes.

 

[Turtle Soup]

Yeah you're right I forgot about that, however I'm not sure firing squads were actually that accurate all the time. To tell the truth probably no execution was really humane.