The bible says god is all loving, sitting back and doing nothing while people suffer and you could easily stop their suffering is not loving.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Evil means a Christian God cannot exist?
- Thread starter jc104
- Start date
I actually missed this post, which makes your response to my question make much more sense (at first I thought you were trolling).
You must remember that we are talking about the Christian deity. Read up on their mythology. In the book of Genesis god created the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So clearly the concepts of good and bad exist in the Christian deity's eyes.
Well, yes, I know that. I'm just saying that the brain is probably completely classical and that the actual usefulness of quantum physics is overstated, regardless of how it functions.
Additional speed can be useful, yes. But we don't know how useful it might be and we don't know about the overhead.
I am confused what you mean here. Do you mean binary versus trinary operations, which means functions that take two versus three bits? As far as I can tell, CNOT + single qubit operations are universal, so I'm not sure what ternary operations are going to bring to the table, besides marginal efficiency gains.
Do you mean as in three states in a unit rather than two? If so, ternary systems offer next to nothing over binary systems, functionality wise. Take two bits or qubits, juxtapose them, you get a quaternary system, that's all there is to it. A completely analog system would offer next to nothing over a binary system either, because returns decrease exponentially with precision - just allocate enough bits per value and you'll never see a difference. That doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't have ternary systems, but it certainly isn't going to be revolutionary.
The advantage of quantum computation lies in the fact that n qubits do not encode one n-bit value, but indeed a sort of distribution over all 2^n possible values, therefore exponentially more information. Unfortunately, we can only sample from that distribution, which typically means exponential time to retrieve all of it, and that's only if we can reproduce it consistently. However, using appropriate unitary transforms in an appropriate circuit, we can entangle and tweak the distributions of the inputs so that sampling from the end result gives the right answer with good probability. Essentially, classical is binary (2^n possibilities), and quantum is "super-binary" (2^(2^n) possibilities), which is a vast improvement despite the gotchas. Binary versus ternary, in comparison, will give you paltry returns.
Can anyone define "all loving", or maybe even quote a scripture that defines/displays what is mean by that? I think that may be the disconnect here, and in order to get anywhere we need to define the terms. Just because God wants you to spend eternity with him (a pretty big gesture of love) doesn't mean he will remove all suffering from our brief mortal lives. There is absolutely no place in the Bible that ever says that God loves humanity in such a way that he would actively remove all suffering from their lives. People in general might want to believe that, but it's not true.
Suffering is a part of Christianity. I mean, honestly today we in America have it really great, if we were hit by the kind of EQ that hit Hati it wouldn't affect us nearly as bad because of our good physical infrastructure, hosipitals, emergency personell, etc... But it wasn't that way for early Christians. They had a terrible, rough existence and were persecuted every day. Many of them lost their lives, but none of them saw their suffering as proof of God's non-existence.
While I think the OP did a good job of clearly stating his line of reasoning, I really believe the OP should try to clearly define his terms. Otherwise you will just say "God is "all loving"" and I will continue to say "No, God "loves you more than you ever deserve"" and we'll just keep arguing until the thread gets locked. :P
You're making the same kind of mistake other Christians in this thread do: you describe your beliefs, rather than argue them. The problem of evil is essentially that evidence all around the world strongly suggests that God could have done a much better job of making us happy and fulfilled. It's not really about scripture and what it says God does, it's more about what God should have done if he really was on our side.
He can love us with all his heart, but if he has nothing to show for it, I'm not going to be endeared.
Nobody is arguing for or against the existence of God. If God exists, he may very well be indifferent to us, antagonistic, deceitful - he might not be omnipotent. Evidence is against God being some sort of good, all-powerful, caring deity who never lies to us, but if he fails to meet some of these qualities, he's off that hook.
Admittedly, none of them saw their suffering as evidence that God maybe wasn't all that good... but they should have. The problem is that they are trained not to judge their religion and to accept its principles on faith, regardless of how little sense it makes. Few ancients ever questioned their religion regardless of what it was, anyway. Christianity, Islam, Roman/Pagan gods, Zoroastrianism, native American beliefs, and so on, all more of the same. People believe the darnedest things :(
In my opinion, I believe God to be some sort of 'safety blanket' for people. People who fear the unknown, who want to explain the unexplained as such. The Bible provides people with something to expect after they die, and a theory on how they came to be. Two of the topics that man cannot be truly certain of. No matter how horrible an unknown is, if a person is told exactly what will happen, it would be more comfortable for them to experience than the vast, unsettling thought of nothingness. People (generally) turn to religion if they cannot accept or understand something, a family member dies, they are truly plagued by the thought of death etc etc.
I mean there are always exceptions to rules, but I like to think this is a fair observation of religion.
Agnostic people like my self (I'm speaking from personal experience and limited discussions with other people of varying religious degrees) tend to either be oblivious of death, accepting of these unknowns, or truly nonchalant in their ignorance (like myself).
After all, they say ignorance is bliss, huh?
I mean there are always exceptions to rules, but I like to think this is a fair observation of religion.
Agnostic people like my self (I'm speaking from personal experience and limited discussions with other people of varying religious degrees) tend to either be oblivious of death, accepting of these unknowns, or truly nonchalant in their ignorance (like myself).
After all, they say ignorance is bliss, huh?
They also had no alternative; what could explain the world around them, if not God? Illness? They didn't have microscopes to see bacteria, so their only conclusion was something supernatural.
The problem with this discussion is that God, the Bible, and all of Christianity, was created by Man. It's a rather hypocritical thing, Christianity is, since Man were sinners by default, even when Christianity was at it's strongest.
Besides, "evil" is not really definable. One man, having killed his father, may be seen as evil, even despite him being mentally, emotionally, and physically abused by said father.
Besides, "evil" is not really definable. One man, having killed his father, may be seen as evil, even despite him being mentally, emotionally, and physically abused by said father.
In this case, "Evil" is anything that causes suffering. Since making this thread I have come to the conclusion that suffering would have been a more appropriate word overall. Edit: Yeah, they are not synonymous. What I meant is, the question should be "Why does suffering exist?" This is much broader and better defined.
But we don't call all actions that cause suffering evil. For example putting someone in prison causes them suffering.
Hmmm... I guess I'm not being clear.
Here's the OP's argument again, incase anyone is off track:
Again, here is his "issue":
I hope this was a bit clearer than my previous posts.
Here's the OP's argument again, incase anyone is off track:
The Bolded/Underlined is where I disagree with his line of reasoning. According to the Bible, God is all powerful (he can do whatever he wants). The Bibile also says that God is All Knowing (he knows everything that was, is, and is to come). However, the Bible never says that God is "All loving", at least in the sense that the OP seems to imply (though he still hasn't defined "All loving" to any degree). The bible says that God does desire for all humanity to be saved from an eternity imprisoned in Hell (II Peter 3:9, etc, etc...). In that sense, yes God is "All loving". However, it never once says that God desires to save us from any/all suffering here in our brief lives on Earth.
Again, here is his "issue":
My "answer" to his "issue" is that God never said he would stop evil/suffering in our brief lives on Earth. His love for us is more focused on providing an eternity with him in Heaven. Suffering (obviously) exists, but that doesn't proclude God's love for us, or his knowledge of said suffering, or his power to (if he so chooses) to end such suffering.
I hope this was a bit clearer than my previous posts.
mattj, If god wants everyone to have a favorable afterlife as you said, why did he create hell, and make it impossible to get out of it without believing in him and then make himself unknown to 2/3 of the world? Please don't reply with something like "people who don't believe in god are choosing to rebel against him" I do not lack a belief in god because I do not want to follow him, I lack a belief in god because I truly do not think he exists. If god exists he would be aware of this and also aware that be altering my circumstances that he could make me aware of his existence. If god chooses not to do this (as he has clearly done in the past for other atheist who died as atheists) then it shows that he did not want me to believe in him. If he sends me to hell for this disbelief then it shows that he hates me and cannot be all loving.
PS the bible states "god is love" which is where the all loving thing comes from
PS the bible states "god is love" which is where the all loving thing comes from
2 different debates there bud. Only one is on topic.
Again, I'm not saying he's "all loving" in the sense that he wants to remove all suffering from life. That was my point. The OP is trying to say that Christians say "that God is all loving in the sense that he wants to remove all suffering from life." I'm saying that's not Biblical.
PS Read the rest of that chapter to understand what that single section of a single scripture is talking about. "God is love" does not mean that God desires to remove human suffering on Earth.
you all know who the Devil was right? He was an Angel, he chose evil so was bannished from God. Hell isnt fire or whatever. Hell is absence of God, therefore if God is not Present on earth, then earth is hell. Evil is just there what started the big bang, what started anything for that matter? " Evil " is defying God... and we all have free will... so if you defy God that is Evil. the Devil was the first so to speak to defy God and he was bannished from heaven for it. thats where evil comes from
God is there to pick you up when you are Down, that is love not removing all evil. like it was said before.
Edit: btw Hell is a choice, not a punishment
God is there to pick you up when you are Down, that is love not removing all evil. like it was said before.
Edit: btw Hell is a choice, not a punishment
LOL but it IS a choice. You chose not to believe in him your reasoning is because its Logically impossible. So? We choose to believe in him, you dont have to and no one can force you too. God doesnt need you to believe in him you can if you wish? but you dont have to. And its a Choice i know its impossible but it doesnt matter to me, i believe by choice, the bible is all about choices...
but just for all you who enjoy paradox's as i do Here's one about god (; " Can God make a stone so heavy that he himself can not lift it? "
Once again, by a technical definition, it is, but this "choice" is analogous to me pointing a gun at someone's head and giving them two options: obey me and live or disobey me and die. They are perfectly capable to disobey me, but no one in their right mind would do so, and knowing this I would have exploited them into doing exactly what I want them to do. That is called control. And that is what religion has done, for better or worst, throughout history.
This debate, and the evolution debate, have both managed to wander off topic frequently. It's the nature of debates.
The rest of your points are addressing the original assumptions. Which is IMHO an entirely valid thing to do. Though one must be careful of referring to the Bible on Christian matters - while it is of course the key source for Christian belief, it is not the only one - many beliefs firmly held by at least some Christians and denominations of Christianity are not stated in the Bible. Beliefs about the nature of God may well be such.
@onceXExile: The nature of Hell is of course another question, relevant to but separate from the original topic. And I'm glad to see someone bringing up the concepts of Hell other than the popular fire-and-brimstone eternal torment.
If god is indeed omniscient the concept of choice is just an illusion. Thus, latios truly did not choose to be an atheist. It was predetermined since the beginning of time.
no one in there right mind? there are plenty of people who would rather die than let go of there belief's or to hold onto certain one's you cant speak for everybody :P
EDIT:
@Obsessed God himself is a contradiction you could have brought that up with the paradox i put up there and " choice is an illusion " might be true infact ive questioned that over and over, however that doesnt stop you from doing " what you wish" your choice IS destiny like the story of a father and a boy. the Father was told that one Day his son would kill him. The father then gave away the child to another family, when he was growing up the Boy learned that he was to kill his father, so he ran away from his adoptive parents (thinking that they were his real parents) for fear that he might kill his " father " One Day his real Father tried to steal from him and the boy killed him ( not knowing it was his real father) So theyre choices ultimatley lead to what was supposed to do. so you CAN choose but it all ends up the same. you choose which path you take to your destination that is all.
The story is called Oedipus the king, but I still think you don't understand what I'm saying. I'm not saying that you have a destiny and the ultimate outcome is set, there is no free will at any point in the process, If we assume that god exists and knows everything then he must know every single action we will do so all of our actions must be predetermined. Even if god does not exist free will is still impossible as it is mathematically impossible for a process to be neither determined nor random.
oh no latiOs i was telling that story to Obsessed. Now God doesnt have impossiblities even if we do. Actually if God does Exist and i were ever in his presence i would have a few questions to ask him. Till then i believe he doe exist and it all comes down to weather you want to or not. hm what youve said sounds familiar.... oh was is it Einstien who said " God does not play Dice " lol he wssnt reffering to God as in the christian God he was athiest he was reffering to the universe, so he said things COULD be determined and COULDnt be random but thats a whole differeent story WAY off topic
@ Cantab: lol your right just cause math cant explain it doeasnt make it impossible, negative numbers are impossible but we use them anyway :P
@ Cantab: lol your right just cause math cant explain it doeasnt make it impossible, negative numbers are impossible but we use them anyway :P
This is way easier than we've been making it for two millenia.
If God really is God then you will never ever ever ever understand him.
Please focus your intellect and attention on something we can all grasp.
Like Pokemon. :)
If God really is God then you will never ever ever ever understand him.
Please focus your intellect and attention on something we can all grasp.
Like Pokemon. :)