EVO 1 - Process Vote

[Frosty]

I agree that the EVO project tends to attract more fanboyism than the regular CAP projects and, because of that, we should modify the process in order to make sure that fanboyism won't play a significant role on our polls, mainly the first polls.

Since the first polls regarding the poke that will be evolved are the most important ones, I do believe that we need to be more rigid when accepting bolded votes, maybe use artic's suggestion, or give the TL power to reject votes without solid reasoning on those initial polls or whatever.


BUT, I believe that what is done is done. If we stop the project everytime we detect a mistake, then discuss the problem, then decide on a solution and then restart the project, we would end up with almost nothing being done. And that is even worse on a project like EVO, which was supposed to be faster. That is why I voted to continue with the current EVO round with Farfecth'd (even though I really hated the choice), while we detect all issues with the process and fix them for round 2, like we did (sorta) with the CAP project.

But that is me.

 

[jagged_angel]

I don't think you've paid attention to what people have said here. It is not the choice that peple are against. It is the process that was used to get the final choice that people had a problem with, which leant itself to fanboyism and no specific goal to aim for. If you look a few pages back (I use 40 posts per page, so i dont know how far back it is) you can see the_artic_one's suggestion for how we should do it diffrently, much more akin to the CAP project and giving the project a set goal.

I have read every post regarding the discussion. Gormenghast would not have bitched about this to the extent he has had he been happy with the pokemon chosen. It's because he thought of a 'better' choice that he did this.

Yes the process is flawed as is any process but it fails completely when a 'respected' user with enough clout comes in and sabotages (his word) the whole thing.

I find it incredibly disappointing that his "OOH let's do Camerupt" thread wasn't immediately locked as if the exact same thread had been made from a new account it would have been locked, DJD has said this himself in the thread.

Gormenghast - you weren't there, you didn't care, and you've a hell of a nerve thinking you're doing what's best for the community. Way to alienate half the people who contribute to the project.

 

[shade]

I don't think you've paid attention to what people have said here. It is not the choice that peple are against. It is the process that was used to get the final choice that people had a problem with, which leant itself to fanboyism and no specific goal to aim for. If you look a few pages back (I use 40 posts per page, so i dont know how far back it is) you can see the_artic_one's suggestion for how we should do it diffrently, much more akin to the CAP project and giving the project a set goal.

Just because Dux is a renowned "cool" Pokémon, doesn't mean that every vote in its favour is "fanboyism". In fact, quite the contrary. Many people voted for Farfetch'd because they had a valid reason to do so, not because they think Fetch'd is a cooler Pokémon or because they are a "fanboy".

On the topic of the flawed system: I happen to agree. the_arctic_one's suggestion is a great suggestion and should be implemented in future EVO projects. The point of the matter is; we have chosen Farfetch'd. You people have to stick to it. Maybe next EVO project you can choose Camerupt, but the deed has been done, the majority picked Farfetch'd and it should not change.

 

[RBG]

I have read every post regarding the discussion. Gormenghast would not have bitched about this to the extent he has had he been happy with the pokemon chosen. It's because he thought of a 'better' choice that he did this.

Which may have been the case, but many of us have pointed out in that topic (including, might I add, the Topic Leader now agrees with) that the process might have gone a little too fast and there were problems with the process.

Yes the process is flawed as is any process but it fails completely when a 'respected' user with enough clout comes in and sabotages (his word) the whole thing.

He used that word after he was accused of it, i hope sarcastically. Again, gorm is not the only one who has seen problems with how the process of the vote happened. I have been saying since he made the thread that we jumped in too fast without enough discussion.

I find it incredibly disappointing that his "OOH let's do Camerupt" thread wasn't immediately locked as if the exact same thread had been made from a new account it would have been locked, DJD has said this himself in the thread.

I can understand this statement.

To everyone who is saying we should keep going:

We are barely into this new process, and our first step appears to have been rushed. There is a better way to do it, which will no doubt yield good results, and give everyone a goal to aim for, rather then the multiple places people could see this going (Fighting/Flying Physical Attacker, Steel/Flying Special Wall, Baton Passer) ect.

What would have happened if a user who was respected in the CAP had suggested that this be restarted? Maybe Gorm did it for the wrong reasons, but the fact that many people agree that it was done wrong and agree that it could have been done better is a good enough reason to consider starting over. We are barely into this project, and since this has been advertised on the front page, we need to make sure we do this right.

 

[Limbo]

In my opinion, bold vote polls backed up with reasoning should have been used the whole way thoroughout selecting the pokemon for EVO.
It would result in filtering out the fanboys who do not even care for the CAP metagame - just the aesthetic attributes that would result from choosing said pokemon.

As a newbie myself, it's pretty clear CAP and EVO encourage new people to take an interest in the projects - however, most of these new people do not understand the heart of the project when they are voting, which then ends up creates awkward poll results and such a large amount of disatisfication in the community.

 

[DoubleUnderscore]

I've not really contributed much before, just been lurking for the past few CAPs with the occasional vote when I see fit, but I feel I have to say something now. In the past CAPs, there have been things that in retrospect have not been great ideas. That is why there have been discussions to decide whether or not Syclant and Revvy should be changed and if so how.

I see absolutely no reason why we should reopen the polls. The poll was done, we got ourselves a winner, let's just carry on. I voted for Farfetch'd all the way through, not because of what Gorm said, but because as soon as the EVO project was mentioned, that was what came to mind. I'm sure the same is true for a number of people, which is why it won. If someone else wanted another Pokemon, they had their chance to suggest them. You miss the deadline, your idea doesn't get considered. That's the reason these discussion threads have deadlines.

In my opinion, therefore, the best thing to do is to continue with this project with Farfetch'd.

 

[gorm]

Just because Dux is a renowned "cool" Pokémon, doesn't mean that every vote in its favour is "fanboyism". In fact, quite the contrary. Many people voted for Farfetch'd because they had a valid reason to do so, not because they think Fetch'd is a cooler Pokémon or because they are a "fanboy".

everyone can *make up a reason* that farfetchd would have a cool evo but none of them are really based on *we need a check for these metagame threats* like my reasoning for camerupt and that is the kind of reaoning we should be looking for

On the topic of the flawed system: I happen to agree. the_arctic_one's suggestion is a great suggestion and should be implemented in future EVO projects. The point of the matter is; we have chosen Farfetch'd. You people have to stick to it. Maybe next EVO project you can choose Camerupt, but the deed has been done, the majority picked Farfetch'd and it should not change.

wow im really tired of hearing this. Can someone tell me what good it would do us to base this entire project on a vote that was conducted pretty much with no discussion?

On top of that i dont see the merit in pursuing a project for evo that pretty much has a cap process. that's a waste of a new project concept and i have yet to hear ANYONE give me a valid reason why it isnt

too late to change it? Give me one good reason apart from a weak majority that pretty much wasn't voting for the right reasons. if anyone wants to argue for a specific metagame niche that would be useful that can be directly tied to "a fectd evo" id love to hear it but the entire process selection which deemed choosing a poke to evolve more important than it's future function is -flawed- and should not be used as a basis for this project

I see absolutely no reason why we should reopen the polls. The poll was done, we got ourselves a winner, let's just carry on. I voted for Farfetch'd all the way through, not because of what Gorm said, but because as soon as the EVO project was mentioned, that was what came to mind. I'm sure the same is true for a number of people, which is why it won. If someone else wanted another Pokemon, they had their chance to suggest them. You miss the deadline, your idea doesn't get considered. That's the reason these discussion threads have deadlines.

you havent read any of my responses to the 1000000 posts like this.
im serious like 50 people having fucking told me its too late and i am kind of proving them wrong

why are you all supporting such a stupid process. if i am dissatisfied with the process i cant speak up because *its already ben decided on a while back*? if alot of people end being dissatisfied with the process they should ust *wait till the next cap?* whos ignoring the majority now? look at the poll lol.

In my opinion, bold vote polls backed up with reasoning should have been used the whole way thoroughout selecting the pokemon for EVO.
It would result in filtering out the fanboys who do not even care for the CAP metagame - just the aesthetic attributes that would result from choosing said pokemon.

this is an idea but tihnk of poor darkie ^_^^~

We are barely into this new process, and our first step appears to have been rushed. There is a better way to do it, which will no doubt yield good results, and give everyone a goal to aim for, rather then the multiple places people could see this going (Fighting/Flying Physical Attacker, Steel/Flying Special Wall, Baton Passer) ect.

yeah i dont understand why people dont get this, this is excetly right

What would have happened if a user who was respected in the CAP had suggested that this be restarted? Maybe Gorm did it for the wrong reasons, but the fact that many people agree that it was done wrong and agree that it could have been done better is a good enough reason to consider starting over. We are barely into this project, and since this has been advertised on the front page, we need to make sure we do this right.

eh i did it because i didnt want another rushed underdiscussed cap pretty much and the process was just gonna lead to that.

I have read every post regarding the discussion. Gormenghast would not have bitched about this to the extent he has had he been happy with the pokemon chosen. It's because he thought of a 'better' choice that he did this.

youre dense. i wasnt really about camerupt it was against a process which didnt allow us to take a step back. if you are naive enough to think camerupt is the only evo we can evolve and fit into a niche with simple boosts (an EVO) then thats too bad. we are restating because the process sucks, notbecause camerupt is awesome.

Yes the process is flawed as is any process but it fails completely when a 'respected' user with enough clout comes in and sabotages (his word) the whole thing.

why is this a bad thing. its flawed and i am making it fail. yeah!!!

I find it incredibly disappointing that his "OOH let's do Camerupt" thread wasn't immediately locked as if the exact same thread had been made from a new account it would have been locked, DJD has said this himself in the thread.

talk to DJD ebcause apparently when someone respected says interesting things he wants to hear about it.

Gormenghast - you weren't there, you didn't care, and you've a hell of a nerve thinking you're doing what's best for the community. Way to alienate half the people who contribute to the project.

tell me one way im wrong and ill listen to you. all youre saying is youre wrong, leave it alone and you have yet to tell me why

 

[TAY]

Guys I don't understand how some of you still have the audacity to make your argument as a personal attack on gorm. If want to attack him then you might as well attack me and Caelum too, because we shared his sentiments 100% when he made the post. Honestly I think "anyone could have made that post" is reason enough to stop bitching at him. If I had posted it would your reaction be any different? We were talking about it on shoddy just before he posted it, so feel free to bitch at me as well. I mean come on you can say what you want about special treatment, but his option is winning which shows that a lot more poeple shared his thoughts. This project has always been about welcoming new members, and I don't know when the hell it became so elitist, but it needs to stop. Guys gorm is a really smart dude, and you do not want to shove him away from this project, especially when this forum has the reputation as the second noob capital of the site, along with wifi. He has already contributed 10x more than most of the people bitching about him just by identifying a problem and fighting his balls off to fix it.

To sum up: This is not about gorm; this is not about camerupt. This is about problems with the initial process. Sometimes it is difficult to see the problem until the machine starts running, and I obviously don't blame this on darkie or tennis or doug. But there are problems with the current system, and if I had known that this vote would be an option I would have posted in the same vein as gorm myelf.

 

[Zoro]

Voted for keeping on this evo... I wont even try reasoning that ( <_< )

 

[sekian]

I'm new to posting on the forums, but have been lurking for a while. What my observations of what the idea of CAP is suppose to be is a place where the current metagame is studied, and new ideas are introduced. While the idea of a Farfetch'd evolution is great, I think it plays to much to our fanboyish side. I'll admit that I liked the idea myself, but after hearing of the idea for a Camerupt evolution and how it could influence the metagame, I changed my mind. Besides, look at all of the places that Camerupt could be taken. It could be a great tank, with Solid Rock and weaknesses only to ground (which is huge, considering EQ) and water. At the same time, it could break many of the walls in the current metagame, as well as countering multiple things that are huge, such as Scarf-Tran and Scizor.

I know that most of what I have said has already been posted, but it is still quite relevant.

 

[gorm]

thank you sekian :D

Voted for keeping on this evo... I wont even try reasoning that ( <_< )

yeah that's exactly the kind of vote we need... why even post? why even vote?

To sum up: This is not about gorm; this is not about camerupt. This is about problems with the initial process.

TAY you are 100% correct, thank you.

 

[Zoro]

yeah that's exactly the kind of vote we need.

Thank You.

 

[bojangles]

I'm voting to redo. in my opinion, it seemed like the initial suggestions was more like a popularity contest: "Hey Farfys pretty cool, lets evolve him". However, now we're stuck with Farfetch'd and Houndoom. Houndoom already can support himself in the OU metagame. He has a good special attack, the capacity to run mixed, and fair speed. On the other hand, what will improve by evolving Farfetch'd? Another Flying/Normal or Flying/Fighting in OU? Don't we already have Staraptor? One of them will outclass the other and then we'll be right back were we started from, one good flying type in OU.

This isn't just about going back and choosing Camerupt, its about taking more into consideration what this new pokemon could do for the current OU environment.

 

[gorm]

This isn't just about going back and choosing Camerupt, its about taking more into consideration what this new pokemon could do for the current OU environment.

yep, thanks ;D

 

[Wyverii]

Well though i'm of the belief that pulling back the project will cause problems with members in future i'm not going to cry if it does end up being so so long as this is an isolated event. The first EVO thread was quite a mess and it wasn't really anybodies fault. Now that the excitement for the new project's died down a bit i'm sure that we'll do better whether we keep going with Farfetch'd or redo the whole thing. The last thing I want to see right now is for bad feelings to be spread by this split of opinion.

As a final note. I'd happily support a Camerupt evolution.

 

[gorm]

thank you for your consideration for the project's best interest wyveri :)


edit: i didnt see any attacks in your post shade its mostly just people telling me im getting special treatment. i did however disagree with your post above ^_^:

 

[shade]

Guys I don't understand how some of you still have the audacity to make your argument as a personal attack on gorm.

I hope Gorm doesn't feel that my comments were a personal attack on him. I just put forward my rational views on the matter.

 

[TAY]

Shade I was not referring to you. You made an excellent post and argued your case well, even if some people don't agree with it ^_____^

 

[Jhonny]

First off, I dont give two shits about whether Gorm was rude or polite, or whether people were rude to him or not, everyone here already gets that that has no relevence on whether his argument is sound or not.

The initial vote wasn't given enough consideration by enough people, and I say this based on the number of posts that didn't have sufficient reasoning beyond liking the pokemon. That's not to say that there were not any, there just wasn't much in relation to the number of votes.

Whether or not the the framework for the process was messed up, I agree with the general sentiment in the thread that it's hard to identify certain problems before the process starts rolling along.

My initial reaction to all this was (and some people who've given this more thought than myself have said that this is a common argument) that we should be defensive of the process. My reasoning for this was that if we stopped and started whenever people didn't agree on things then we would never get a finished pokemon. However, this argument now seems flawed in that if this was found to be the case half way through the project then there would have been a lost of time wasted. Since this is an issue right at the beginning of the process it makes more sense to step down now to fix what was rushed.

 

[gorm]

First off, I dont give two shits about whether Gorm was rude or polite, or whether people were rude to him or not, everyone here already gets that that has no relevence on whether his argument is sound or not.

exactly

The initial vote wasn't given enough consideration by enough people, and I say this based on the number of posts that didn't have sufficient reasoning beyond liking the pokemon. That's not to say that there were not any, there just wasn't much in relation to the number of votes.

yeah thats pretty much what im arguing

Whether or not the the framework for the process was messed up, I agree with the general sentiment in the thread that it's hard to identify certain problems before the process starts rolling along.

yeah thats why im pulling for a process that we can all agree on AND modify along the way

My initial reaction to all this was (and some people who've given this more thought than myself have said that this is a common argument) that we should be defensive of the process. My reasoning for this was that if we stopped and started whenever people didn't agree on things then we would never get a finished pokemon. However, this argument now seems flawed in that if this was found to be the case half way through the project then there would have been a lost of time wasted. Since this is an issue right at the beginning of the process it makes more sense to step down now to fix what was rushed.

thank you for posting about your reconsideration. i really appreciate this post.

 

[sbc]

Voted to restart the poll. I think we need to wipe the slate clean completely and just restart this project from the very, very beginning. There is too much dissatisfaction and the evo selection process was perhaps not comprehensive enough. For the future success of the project I don't think that we should start off a project where the community is split over the most important issue. For my two cents I believe that a project with Farfetch'd could have yielded good results. This would be a precedent, and I want to it stay as that and not a regular occurrence. The CAP itself would fall apart if we do so; the evo project is new and there is little harm in starting over again, a tiny bit into the process if we keep this isolated.

More fundamentally, I think there is a difference in viewpoint in what the actual mission of the EVO project is; are we giving a viable pokemon a boost into a new potential niche or are we overhauling a pokemon, making a non-viable pokemon viable and give it the capabilities to fulfil whatever role it it has but is incapable of doing so due to shittyness (lol) .IMO, both intentions are worthwhile competitively, despite what some people have said or have argued. (Btw, why aren't we having a concept poll after pokemon selection? - I am a bit late but that is something that would make sense to include)

Gorm in principle had a good argument, but I am disappointed that his argument often ended up as "lol you are fanboys" and "no one will take you seriously" and insinuations that the previous CAP creations are basically shit with no competitive purpose (look at Fidgit if anyone truly believes that we just create random pokemon with no purpose). That just shows total disrespect, from someone who by their own admission has never given two shits about CAP nor has actually used the CAP pokemon and was the first person to steam in with fight/flying farfetch'd before criticising those who voted for it.

 

[gorm]

Gorm in principle had a good argument, but I am disappointed that his argument often ended up as "lol you are fanboys" and "no one will take you seriously" and insinuations that the previous CAP creations are basically shit with no competitive purpose (look at Fidgit if anyone truly believes that we just create random pokemon with no purpose). That just shows total disrespect, from someone who by their own admission has never given two shits about CAP nor has actually used the CAP pokemon and was the first person to steam in with fight/flying farfetch'd before criticising those who voted for it.

ive made mistakes (supporting fetchd) but im trying to fix it ^_^
as far as being disrespectful honestly diplomacy is not my forte right now so if ive offended people working on cap for a while i guess it wasnt really my intention. i really just want to brign some change to how this forum is looked upon.
i wont disagree that cap has improved, but i still think this project can accomplish alot more than *creating arbitrary pokemon* just because we restrict the creation process a little more means we can focus on the end result and what we want it to do for the metagame. that should be the basis we build on top of (see the_artic's_one's suggested process)

mostly i appreciate your post because it shows that you care about the end result more than a process that could impede it.

(Btw, why aren't we having a concept poll after pokemon selection? - I am a bit late but that is something that would make sense to include)

most people are agreeing that concept should go hand in hand with what pokemon you are suggesting to evolve (see the_arctic_one's post again ^_^)

 

[Chileno4Live]

Okay Gormenghast, you've convinced me with your hard work and stamina. I voted for Redo-ing this whole project.

Before i voted, i checked everyone's arguments carefully. First i was like Gormenghast get's special treatment and all that, im honest in what i think so i just tell you guys xD. But after some pages i've seen many argument that convinced me, the 1 that convinced me the most was TAY's.

Quoted from TAY:

To all you people saying, "gorm got special treatment" or "this is only because gorm is cool/has weight": just shut up. If you really want to talk about the issue at hand in this thread then do so by presenting your case. If you want to attack gorm for no reason, then just shup up an vote no. The fact is that this had a lot of support, even disregarding gorm. Just because he was bold enough to bring it up isn't a good reason to be a douche to him. He saw a problem and acted to try and fix it, and I applaud him for that.

This is the best defense Gormenghast could ever get, and it convinced me, even with all the other argument around. Gormenghast indeed tried to fix the whole meaning of this project, and i admire his stamina.

Camerupt is a wonderfull idea, it can actually bring something usefull to the metagame, just like Gormenghast said. It is a good heatran counter, which is why i want him to win. Also it's kinda a good pokemon especially in Trick Room, so how would his EVO be o.o

Note: I didn't agreed on Gormenghast's argument because im scared of what he's gonna say to me or what other people are going to say. I just looked over the arguments and found out Gormenghast's arguments made sense and it just convinced me, though i still like the Farfetch'd evo.

 

[gorm]

thanks, i really appreciate everything in your post.

 

[RBG]

Gorm is only relying to every post so he can catch up to Mekkah :p

And on a side note, i think I was the first on the forums to say that the process went wrong, Gorm is just a camerupt fanboy :P

Oh, and gorm, the first person so suggest Farfetche'd did it way before you did
in fact, it was before they even started voting in the first poll

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=766162&postcount=21