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EVO 1 - Process Vote

How should we proceed with the EVO 1 project?


  • Total voters
    213
  • Poll closed .
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It's still a game.... there's no point in wasting your time playing if you aren't going to have fun. Just using good pokes and winning is usually more fun than using your favorite pokemon and losing.

Err... I voted to stick with the current process until the end of EVO1, where we would then re-do it. Mainly because I don't see it as wasting time, and I think that we will still end up with a perfect viable pokemon regardless of the fact that the process has a few flaws.
 
Err... I voted to stick with the current process until the end of EVO1, where we would then re-do it. Mainly because I don't see it as wasting time, and I think that we will still end up with a perfect viable pokemon regardless of the fact that the process has a few flaws.
im not saying you cant make fetchd viable, i think its just another cap and this community needs a new start. the process is completely flawed and needs deep change. i don't feel like it's worth applying it to any project.
 
Elevator, CAP1 and CAP2 were flawed. We let them go. And know i read topics like "CaP revision - Syclant"... Can we avoid an "EVO revision" and redo it now plz?

P.S.: Plz, if the "redo party" wins, can we open a more mature PR - I mean mature because of the experiences of this first try - and discuss new fanboysm-proof rules? I proposed something, but probably more experienced members can surely dish out clever rules which will make mine seem naif and unaccurate...
 
might as well start suggesting a new process imo..
i agree with both the arctic one's and zarator's idea. i think the next step after choosing a poke/niche should be deciding WHAT we change, that is stats/movepool/ability/typing/look

obviously stats/movepool/look will always be changed. typing is up for debate but very often i would leave it as is (ex: in camerupt's case). ability is also up for discussion

whats important is that we need to really keep the niche in mind at all times and try not to be like *man it would rule if*. ex solid rock camerupt is interesting but i think flash fire would make it a better heatran/zapdos check all around.

Elevator, CAP1 and CAP2 were flawed. We let them go. And know i read topics like "CaP revision - Syclant"... Can we avoid an "EVO revision" and redo it now plz?
exactly lol
 
might as well start suggesting a new process imo..
i agree with both the arctic one's and zarator's idea. i think the next step after choosing a poke/niche should be deciding WHAT we change, that is stats/movepool/ability/typing/look

I still think that elder members will give a necessary and healthy improvement to the ideas we are suggesting, but i must note that the rule proposed by arctic and my own rule can perfectly work together.

Anyway, what i'd like people like Eric to understand is: I dont want to blame Farfetch'd. I just wish every topic could be like the last posts of this very topic: well-written, backed by reasoning, and open to serious and critic discussions. If some members of the community are not able or - i think - willing to enter this spirit, if it is impossible with good manners to create this spirit, i think we need rules to enforce it...
 
id like people to post reasons why thiey thing that farfetchd would be a good choice

ive only seen it referred to as "a mistake" for this process and if you are voting otherwise you obviously disagree.

mabye my thread didnt get locked because im recognized

but you know what i worked for that too you are all pretending like this is just a tribute to how people like me as if i have done nothing but whine. stop talking about "sway" like it ahs ANYTHING to do with my _actual arguements for camperupt/redo_

Absolutely.

Gormenghast I believe that you might be doing the right thing but you need some more effort on the presentation. Your spelling is off a lot, and this makes people most of the time disagree with you. It may not be your fault, as for all we know you may have dyslexia, but the fact that this is a repeated problem that can easily be fixed by using FireFox, or having a dictionary handy (like many non-English people on this forum do) might help you out a lot more. The same would go if we compare this to public speaking. If you stagger, mumble and have no confidence or eye contact you will lose the audiences attention and in doing so probably losing a lot more than just that.

Let's use a comparison for example because as many countless people have told me the way you type and post here is the way you would represent yourself. Let's use something interesting such as the presidential election. Barack Obama would never have been chosen if he had not represented himself in the manner he did. He didn't mumble, stumble, stagger, or lose eye contact, he was confident. He knew he could represent himself in the best manner. If he hadn't he wouldn't have even passed the primaries now would he?
 
i could have made my posts nicer and better structured but i didnt. as long as people understand me thats really all i care about.
i realize presentation is important but id rather focus on the actual issues. speaking of which do you have anything to say besides *i wish you had spelled better*
 
Would have saved everyone a lot of trouble if you did it though. For example, you would have had my support instantly.

Making people post a valid justification for their vote isn't elitism, it's common sense.

As long as it isn't one or two people going through and arbitrarily deciding what reasoning is legit and what is not (like with the Wobb uber vote), then indeed, it is common sense.
 
Voted to restart the poll. I think we need to wipe the slate clean completely and just restart this project from the very, very beginning. There is too much dissatisfaction and the evo selection process was perhaps not comprehensive enough. For the future success of the project I don't think that we should start off a project where the community is split over the most important issue. For my two cents I believe that a project with Farfetch'd could have yielded good results. This would be a precedent, and I want to it stay as that and not a regular occurrence. The CAP itself would fall apart if we do so; the evo project is new and there is little harm in starting over again, a tiny bit into the process if we keep this isolated.

More fundamentally, I think there is a difference in viewpoint in what the actual mission of the EVO project is; are we giving a viable pokemon a boost into a new potential niche or are we overhauling a pokemon, making a non-viable pokemon viable and give it the capabilities to fulfil whatever role it it has but is incapable of doing so due to shittyness (lol) .IMO, both intentions are worthwhile competitively, despite what some people have said or have argued. (Btw, why aren't we having a concept poll after pokemon selection? - I am a bit late but that is something that would make sense to include)

Gorm in principle had a good argument, but I am disappointed that his argument often ended up as "lol you are fanboys" and "no one will take you seriously" and insinuations that the previous CAP creations are basically shit with no competitive purpose (look at Fidgit if anyone truly believes that we just create random pokemon with no purpose). That just shows total disrespect, from someone who by their own admission has never given two shits about CAP nor has actually used the CAP pokemon and was the first person to steam in with fight/flying farfetch'd before criticising those who voted for it.
This is probably the best way to sum up how I and many others felt. The supposedly good intentions of this endeavor seemed to be masked by patronizing and ignorant comments, in my eyes, and now that gorm has admitted to having gone about this the wrong way to an extent, I can support redoing the process because it is, indeed, flawed. I'm not saying I definitely support Camerupt either, the issue is that we have to think a little bit harder about what niche we want our evo to fill.
 
Voted for revote. I really like the alien aspect argument Gorm brought up awhile ago. After each CAP project I keep telling myself just to jump in and get used to it. But the fact is with CAP, a new and very different guy is added and the more you wait it off, or just find out about it and take part of it, it's kinda difficult.

And with the current process with the EVO, it looked like the creation would be the same way. I mean what does the duck ( no matter how cool he is) really offer right now and what can he bring to the table if evolved? And that's the puzzling part, you can make him into anything really, and it will became another kinda CAP guy where your imagination goes wild.

An EVO with the new process meant to remedy platinum or find a pokemons niche and build off of it can really help bring me in better, and familiarize it to me and others new. And it like Gorm says actually helps an EVO, as they have the basis of what we need and you just build off of it. I mean why do we need to stick with the current process so badly, this is the beginning of a totally new project, and I think we really need to take advantage of it. I also hope I didn't post something really disagreeable in here, I really don't want to get really embroiled in something I don't want to. :-/
 
Beej, you cant deny that even in the CAP projects we have seen some uncompetitive arguments flawing the project itslef. Mainly because of that damn - sorry for the disrespect :-P - art submission thread influency. This is why i continue to say: on the next CAP, let loose on the stats/ability/movepool, and let artwork justify what we create instead of the contrary. Want to create a Levitate Rock/Ghost special tank? Let the artist create draws levitating ghastly pokemon then! I know what you mean, and i personally think that Fidgit is our more original and interesting creation (with your permission, thanks a lot Mag), but we must be honest and be ready to detect what critics address whatever person make them (and dont fall in an argumentum ad hominem fallacy^^).

Going COMPLETELY offtopic: Beej, Mekkah, can I know who stole the avatar from eachother? :-)

EDIT: Truthi for president haha^^ good point
 
Id just like to ask someone to post a good reason to vote no redo. as far as i can see it these are the main reasons:

We should just go ahead and learn from our mistakes and do Camerupt later if it wins in the polls

you are ignoring the fact that the process by which we would be evolving pokemons is flawed right now, as far as *getting serious about contributing to smogon goes*. it started with the selection of a pokemon when it would be much more beneficial to tart with the selection of a niche. The reason starting with a niche is better is because then we have a clear view of what we want to do, and we refine the details (stats/movepool etc) as we go along but always with the niche in mind, provided the niche would help the metagame

its too late The voters chose farfetch'd

the voters were following a process that admittedly (by darkie ihmself) "rushed" things. while thi doesnt mean everyone was underinformed, it means people who WERE underinformed voted for flavour and no one could stop them. whats worse is that the two "camps" in that vote were pretty much "i want this for flavour" and "that is a bad idea for this projects im voting against it"

thats not to say that houndoom isnt interesting, and i tihnk we could explore it during the do over.
fetchd on the other hand is *just another cap* and i really dont think tahts what ne need right now. if you want farfetchd to win, you should want it to win with good reasoning, with a good niche attached and some justification for that niche given farfetchd's current state (hint there is none). not the way it's going right now.

this has never happened before


i think it needs to happen now. i think this is a bad argument

whats wrong with just doing it and learning through trial and error

id much rather convince people taht running a project around farfetchd with the current process WONT bring anything new compared to making a whole new process and discussing everything alot more. I'd rather start with a strong and interesting project than a project that most people can agree with is evolving garbage into OU which is essentially cap.

you were offensive and insulted our community

first off it really not about me and my manners should have no bearing on your vote.
apart from that im sorry. what i should have said was: "while i respect the effort put into cap, i think it needs to change its processes in order to really contribute something tangible to smogon. i find the past outputs have been dissapointing in this regard"

i have a soft spot for fetchd ^_^

yeah see ya
 
Gorm is only relying to every post so he can catch up to Mekkah :p

And on a side note, i think I was the first on the forums to say that the process went wrong, Gorm is just a camerupt fanboy :P

Oh, and gorm, the first person so suggest Farfetche'd did it way before you did
in fact, it was before they even started voting in the first poll

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=766162&postcount=21

Haha fuck, what have I done? >_>

CAP 1 was so messy. Good thing we managed to sort things out.


And I was going to write a lenghty post about my choices in the first poll, but fuck it, now I'm just going to say I support a restart, and that people actually vote and back up their arguments with some competitive value. When I voted, I chose Banette, Jynx, Houndoom, Muk and [Girafarig/Pinsir]. I wanted Banette and Jynx totally for the fanboy factor, I admit. But I also wanted a Fire-type sweeper that could be more of a check to Azelf and others. And Muk was my main vote, in the end. My idea of a Muk evo would be something close to Muk's current stats (and trait, etcetera) in AA's Mod Server. Maybe it would be too much to create Mindless, but I fully support a new special tank with such an interesting typing and good offensive potential.

But then, Farfetch'd won. I'm not saying only fanboys voted for them, but the fact the poll easily attracts random fanboys'/newbies' attention and let them vote for the "cool samurai duck", and that we never had *any* base to start off with Farfetch'd (we could have it with Muk, Houndoom, Camerupt, Lanturn, etcetera etcetera) shows that something got wrong.

Bah, I don't think I've made myself clear :/ Well, long story short, yes to restart, yes to the_artic_one's method, no to Farfetch'd fanboyism (and to fanboyism in general), and yes to a fair Farfetch'd voting (again, see the_artic_one's method for a example or two).
 
Beej, you cant deny that even in the CAP projects we have seen some uncompetitive arguments flawing the project itslef. Mainly because of that damn - sorry for the disrespect :-P - art submission thread influency. This is why i continue to say: on the next CAP, let loose on the stats/ability/movepool, and let artwork justify what we create instead of the contrary. Want to create a Levitate Rock/Ghost special tank? Let the artist create draws levitating ghastly pokemon then! I know what you mean, and i personally think that Fidgit is our more original and interesting creation (with your permission, thanks a lot Mag), but we must be honest and be ready to detect what critics address whatever person make them (and dont fall in an argumentum ad hominem fallacy^^).

Going COMPLETELY offtopic: Beej, Mekkah, can I know who stole the avatar from eachother? :-)

EDIT: Truthi for president haha^^ good point
I don't really have trouble admitting this. I was going to bring up the subject of the Pokedex entry poll actually. I support the idea of all flavor-oriented aspects of the project going last, as long as time doesn't become a serious issue. One of the advantages to having the art/sprite polls during the true competitive polls is that they don't have to hold up the project later. Unless everybody is fine with playing with a question mark Pokemon for a while, which is entirely possible.

Also lol, that's Doomsday actually.
 
I voted for gorm's proposal, because i think there should have been a bit more discussion before we got launched into a vote.

That being said, farfetch'd did win, and we need to look at how binding our polls should be. There is no way we can avoid making errors in the future, what we have to decide is how to go about them, to leave them be, or allow for instantanious revisions.

While I know Doug stated that this would be a one time only occurence, i'm feel that we should figure out the correct process if (and there will be) more problems.

A: Polls are FINAL, we can't change the outcome, live with it.

B: Re-do the poll after a discussion topic on why it is bad. (I don't see this working because there is no way to decide which polls to re-do.)

C: If there is a flaw, then make a policy review, vote on the parts that are problematic (a simple 50% should not suffice, because we would have to re-do multiple parts of the project, and we would need to know a huge majority agree with changing it(about 66-75%)). A huge renewal of the project. However, a CAP/EVO could have to restart at any time.

I'd like to see what the community thinks about fixing future errors.
 
Okay I brought this up with users in the server a while ago and I felt what I have to say may be beneficial to the EVO process and future CaP processes as well, possibly eliminating some of the fanboy-ism which would sway some votes during both processes. I am bringing this up here because I wouldn't want there to be further controversy and confusion down the road in what is already a shaky start for a new process.

Anyways, what I am proposing is way to handle art, niche, and movepool, and well, essentially the whole process in a manner that I find will be more beneficial to the purpose of CaP and EVO. I opt that we first determine a niche or role we want in the current CaP Metagame. This is helpful when selecting a pokemon to choose for the EVO process as there is now real specifications for what kind of movepool, typing, and stats are needed for our EVO.

There should then be some form of discussion as what pokemon that are possible candidates for the EVO process would be suitable for the niche we are trying to fill, with arguements for different pokemon and such. After doing so a vote commences for which pokemon should be evolved.

There should then be some form of discussion on typing, with clear and prominant arguements presented for type changes or keeping it the same, stating why either choice would be more effecient in the evolution of the chosen pokemon. There was a lot of discussion of typing with fetchd, with people saying steel flying and fighting flying types would be cool. I think this is perfectly fine, but there should be more to prefered typing for an evolution than just what would be flavor. If a specific typing is wanted than some good competitive arguement should be made in its favor.

Speaking of flavor, I opt that art is not submitted or a thread opens for for it until AFTER a main movepool is established. By having art before the movepool, people will have an idea of what their favorite design might be, and this might influence some movepools to center around flavor rather than the actually competitive aspect of the pokemon's movepool. A poll for a main movepool should be established, after a base stat poll or course, to determine what moves should be added to the pokemon to make it better fit its niche and accomplish its main goals for the CaP metagame. After the main movepool is established, art, pokedex, and other miscellaneous features of the pokemon can go on, but any flavor related aspects of the creation of a new evolution should wait until the competitive and metagame related aspects are fully dealt with, and then editting of the final pokemon can commence based on what flavor moves and/or abilities it has recieved that would change how it fits its desired niche in the metagame.

I believe in doing so, the pokemon will be better off than some rather impulsive and fanboyish decisions that might skew results.

One more thing that I may feel might aid this process: avoiding standard click polls as much as possible. For many important decisions, there should be an explanation behind the voting. It would take longer, yes, but it would insure that all votes are made with a knowledgeable background. Essentially what I am looking for here is a vote similar to one conducted a while back (for the life of me I can't remember for what) where votes were reviewed and it was determined by jumpman and other users if the vote was really made with acceptable understanding. Granted, there shouldn't be just one person doing this, as it would skew results, but rather having a committee of sorts that oversees the voting, not just the Project Leader, to insure proper votes are made and random unsupported votes that would otherwise skew results are not counted. These should be members that have contributed significantly to the CaP server and overall project.

I understand I haven't actually been active in these CaP processes recently, however, I have been watching them and have seen several flaws in how the processes are ran. I am hoping that my suggestion might remedy problems that this EVO project, should it be restarted (which I have opted for for the sake of making sure that the farfetchd vote was really right; I am not here to argue about that), be dealing with, and that everything runs as smoothly as possible with the best possible results.

Thanks for reading/considering my proposition even if you just read the bold parts. I am not saying that this is exactly how the process should go, I am merely suggesting fashions in which the processes would run better, so feel free to point out flaws in what I have to say or say that I am wrong about something when I am not trying to be right about anything, rather giving my input on the situation.
 
Personally, I think that the process SHOULD run down the same path as a CAP, with the some process. The only step that should be changed is the beginning step (using The_Arctic_One's idea, which is what I had been trying to say all along). The process has been proven to work so far, and I feel that we should use most of it for this process.
 
The process has been proven to work so far, and I feel that we should use most of it for this process.
id actually be up for disagreeing with this. cap's process imo puts alot of heft on flavour. i think we need to focus on the metagame before the pokemon personally. art should be influenced by movepool/stats like zarator said ealier itt.

but that's down the road ^_^
 
Gorm, that is not "down the road".

If you have a problem with it, it should be addressed NOW. I feel that it is OK to interrupt the process with complaints on how it works this early. It is NOT OK to do this when we are halfway through the process.
 
I agree with Gorm. A lot of decisions in the previous CaPs (I have gone and looked through them, so don't say I don't know enough about the CaP process) was influenced by more than metagame aspects, and there ended up being several revisions to some pokemon. Granted, it could be argued that this is due to the fact that they were the first few CaPs, but the problems are still somewhat prevelant and can be avoided if the current processes are changed somewhat.
 
Voted Keep going as there is no point in trying to change peoples' minds if they will probably only vote for the same thing that they voted for before.
 
Ummm does this poll have an end time? There have been over 200 votes and imo we have a pretty definitive conclusion.

Of course, it's understandable if we want to leave it open for more discussion.

EDIT: Man I miss shit...
 
"This poll will close on November 3rd, 2008 at 09:30 PM" (EST)

i think that next we need to decide weather to start over using The_Arctic_One's style of submission, or go back to the drawing bored with the process
 
If we restart and Camerupt wins, then the vote that restores my hope in the CAP project will (knock on wood) coincide within 24 hours of the vote that restores by faith in America. x)

Cammy go!
 
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