EXTREME Tier Shift

[Isa Simple]

So looking at the in progress Viability Rankings, I'm liking most of the placements regarding the Ubers mons, in fact most placements over all seem pretty justifiable. The only slight issue to me atm is that it's currently very thin (due to being new ofc), where I'd expect it to be a rather inflated VR, given that there are many viable mons from all tiers.

I've had decent success on the ladder (I think I peaked 9th) infrequently running the same team throughout the month, with 2 Ubers and 4 lower tier mons. Of which though none of the lower tier mons are currently on the VR, so I figure I may as well do a bit of a showcase to see if a few of them are worthy of being listed.

This first one however is certainly worthy of being listed, as it has received a lot of mention already and is undoubtably the most reliable and consistent pokemon on my team.
Solrock: 110/135/125/95/105/110
Solrock is awesome in this meta, being a fantastic physical wall capable of checking or countering a plethora of top tier threats. To give you an idea: Primal Groudon, Chatot, Ho-oh, Mega Salamence, Ursaring, Arceus, Mewtwo, Arceus-Ground, Flareon, Marowak, Zangoose, etc, are all either checked or countered by Solrock. Its combination of typing and bulk makes it naturally brilliant at taking on the meta. Plus it has all the tools it needs move pool wise to pull it all together. Will-O-Wisp is extremely crippling to Physical attackers, Stealth Rock provides fantastic team support, Morning Sun provides rather reliable recovery, and STAB Rock Slide from 135 Atk is just enough offensive presence to take out those weak to it. Definitely worthy of a ranking. I'd push for B as the absolute minimum, but I wouldn't mind seeing it as high as A-, as to my experience it has been one of the best physical walls out there. But seriously this needs to be on the VR somewhere.

For these next couple, I am honestly the only person I've ever seen using any of them, so whether or not they are worthy of being listed at all is far more open to debate.

Skuntank: 133/123/97/101/91/114
Skuntank is possibly the strangest of the mons on my team because I run a kinda a weird utility set that is different to standards, so I'll dump that here now.

Skuntank @ Assault Vest
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 232 Atk / 132 SpD / 144 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit
- Poison Jab
- Fire Blast

The spread isn't as special as it looks, having just been copied form the utility set on the calculator (I should probably change it tbh), but it has served me well so far so I've kept it constant. Basically the set has just been designed to be a reliable Pursuit trapper, which it has done perfectly, while also compressing a few other roles. Thanks to it's newfound Special bulk backed by Assault Vest, as well as its typing and resulting lack of weaknesses, Skuntank is extremely reliable in trapping a multitude of Pursuit weak pokemon such as: SD Arceus-Ghost, Deoxys-S, Mewtwo, Mega Gengar, Swoobat, Latios, Rotom, Deoxys-A, Espeon, Hoopa-C, Beheeyum, Kadabra, Haunter, etc. Sucker Punch is extremely useful for strong priority in revenge killing, Poison Jab is a nice STAB for bopping Fairies and has a high poison chance which can often be pretty clutch. Fire Blast is hardly used at all, but is helpful for catching certain mons off guard like Ferrothorn, it can be replaced with other situational options like Explosion or Crunch. Aftermath can also be surprisingly useful at times. So overall it's just a really useful offensive utility mon that can blanket check a lot of weaker or frailer special attackers. Could probably fit in amongst the mons in B-.

Magmar: 105/135/97/140/125/133
Seen a few Magmortar running around, but Magmar is where it's at. And not as a special attacker, as a Belly Drum cleaner. 133 speed is usually enough, but when it's not, Mach Punch is usually strong enough at +6 to kill the faster threats, it also hurts the Rock types that Fire Punch can't. Rounding out the set with Dual Chop gives near perfect neutral coverage, though Thunder Punch is also a decent option to kill bulky waters with less prior damage. Admittedly it relies on a lot of low base power moves, so it can struggle to take out a lot of mons without a bit of prior damage, but SR+1 layer of Spikes is often enough to roll through entire teams. Plus it's really easy to find set up opportunities with that nice special bulk. Also being a Fire type you don't have to worry about being burned, and Vital Spirit prevents sleep too (Rip Darkrai). This has been a extremely reliable win con for my team ever since Quagsire got a huge nerf. I honestly have no clue where I'd rank it, but I want people to know it exists.

Also shoutout to Vileplume <3

Here are a few replays that hopefully showcase the potential of these mons decently. Unfortunately I seem to have only kept mostly low ladder replays, but eh.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/extremetiershift-370511940
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/extremetiershift-368733484
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/extremetiershift-368729335
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/extremetiershift-368725890
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/extremetiershift-368722674

 

[Calista]

Rayquaza doesn't ko mega audino or physdef alomomola:

Ray should of course run Adamant in this meta. I think it is better than Flareon personally since it has so few actual switch-ins and puts in work versus offense as well whereas Flareon is set up on by Groudon and Salamence. Not even Avalugg is safe when you hit it with a Fire-type move on the switch-in.
I agree with Solrock being ranked, but B is fine imo. It has the typing and bulk to check many threats but lacks a means of counterattacking many times. It cannot touch Primal Groudon without Toxic, for example. Salamences bulky spread also avoids the 2HKO from Rock Slide and can referesh burns. This is especially tough if solrock was burned by Ho-Oh earlier in the game. This emerges the need of running a secondary check to most of the things, Solrock is meant to take on.

Ho-Oh should stay as high as it is. After all, this is the first time for good rapid spinners to be found in its tier, mostly those Ice-types Cryogonal and Avalugg, which have decent synergy with Ho-Oh as well (Flygon has very good typing to complement Ho-Ohs too and Defogs). You should probably bring a very bulky Ground-type though to take on Rampardos and other Rock-types. The main thing keeping it in this rank is Sacred Fire which invalidates just about any check bar Alomomola. And of course it still has good defensive utility with its bulk, typing and Regenerator.
I have not used Tyrantrum yet, so I can't really compare the offensive Rock-types in the tier, but someone who has should probably explain the stance of Rampardos - Tyrantrum - Arceus-Rock in the tier.

 

[Angel Knight Phil]

Is a mixed set good for Flareon or should I rely solely on that huge 170 base Atk alone?

 

[Mysterious Player]

Is a mixed set good for Flareon or should I rely solely on that huge 170 base Atk alone?

Stick to that attack stat. It gains no notable coverage, and flare blitz hits much harder then fire blast
0 Atk Flareon Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 205-243 (60.1 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Flareon Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 153-181 (44.8 - 53%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
and that if before the max attack investment and boosting item (band/toxic orb.)

Also, I am not sure where it should go, but Lilligant should be on the viability rankings. 140 special attack and 120 speed with Quiver Dance allows it to sweep teams rather well, and it can keep itself rather healthy thanks to being able to quiver dance on the switch, Giga Drain, take a neutral physical hit, and recover most of the health lost while KOing the opponent with a second Giga Drain. Sleep powder is also a nice tool to put a stop to it asleep (and there aren't many.) I run a set of Sleep Powder/Quiver Dance/Giga Drain/Hidden powder ice, and it has performed well for me. It also benefits from the fact that the only fire types that can wall said set (Ho-oh and Flareon, Pdon only checks.) are not too common on the ladder (I have not seen a single Ho-oh, although that may just be me. I have also seen few Blissey.) It does have flaws however, namely struggling with fire types (can't OHKO any of the relevant ones with HP rock, and is OHKOed back) and losing to things depending on the hidden power. However, Lilligants ability to put its answers to sleep and sweep rather easily makes me believe that a good starting point for Lilligant would be B rank.
Calcs:
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Lilligant Hidden Power Rock vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 395-468 (95.1 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

I don't have replays, but I will get them.

EDIT: Replays (not the best replays, but best I could do)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/extremetiershift-375424867
began setting up turn 17, and would have KOed the Armaldo if I had sleep powdered
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/extremetiershift-375459096
Shows Lilligant against sand. Easy 6-0 against it had the battle gone on (2HKOed everything but Cress,who just gets set up on.)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/extremetiershift-375468982
Although it did take prediction, Lilligant sgot a QD up on Primal Ogre, and proceeded to KO kecleon and weaken weezing (who doesent have reliable recovery.) Also KOed Primal Kyogre at the end. I did forget to mention that Poison type also deal with Lilligant well (but the only one on the VR is the frail Mega Gengar.)

 

[HumbleSpaceMan]

Agree with the Lilligant nomination. On the topic of Quiver dancers, Vivillon needs a place too. Accurate Hurricanes and Sleep powders with Quiver Dance make it a dangerous proposition.B

Blaziken-Mega needs a place too since after a speed boost it can sweep weakened teams surprisingly well. B+.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Vivillion doesn't own coverage. It's restricted to grass, fire or ground, and then you're so painfully essy to wall. Doesn't really have a reason to ranked. Same thing with Vivillion, any steel type or Primal Groudon (50% accurate in sun).

Deepseatooth or clamperl need to be banned, literally nothing isn't 2hkod after rocks and doing like 90% to Sp.Def don is insane...

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Vivillion doesn't own coverage. It's restricted to grass, fire or ground, and then you're so painfully essy to wall. Doesn't really have a reason to ranked. Same thing with Vivillion, any steel type or Primal Groudon (50% accurate in sun).

Deepseatooth or clamperl need to be banned, literally nothing isn't 2hkod after rocks and doing like 90% to Sp.Def don is insane...

Agree completely on vivilion, it isn't that great.

As for the other part, thats at +2- half the meta lives at +0, and when setting up its stupidly frail. Besides, I think the fact that it does have counters at +2 is what makes it not banworthy. For the record I'm talking about the sub+ss+Ice Beam+surf set, as it's far and away the best moveset. A few of these also wall the more niche HP grass set as well, though.
Alomomola (the best one, especially considering regenerator): +2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 276-325 (48 - 56.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after 2 turns of Leftovers recovery
Volcanion (if for whatever reason you need it 100% walled): +2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 107-126 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vaporeon (works after rocks without SPD investment): +2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Vaporeon: 141-166 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 4.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Arceus-Water (standard set): +2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water: 189-223 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
As well as even more niche picks like Lapras, Polywrath, Politoed, Frillish, and Lanturn. If we consider Clamper'ls default state to be unboosted, then the counters include further things like PDon, Gogoat, and EKiller. Even leaving that aside, however, this is a metagame that includes Primal Groudon. Care to name a single counter to that, much less one that does so after a turn of setup?
+2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 189-223 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina-O: 352-416 (69.8 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Agree completely on vivilion, it isn't that great.

As for the other part, thats at +2- half the meta lives at +0, and when setting up its stupidly frail. Besides, I think the fact that it does have counters at +2 is what makes it not banworthy. For the record I'm talking about the sub+ss+Ice Beam+surf set, as it's far and away the best moveset. A few of these also wall the more niche HP grass set as well, though.
Alomomola (the best one, especially considering regenerator): +2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 276-325 (48 - 56.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after 2 turns of Leftovers recovery
Volcanion (if for whatever reason you need it 100% walled): +2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 107-126 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vaporeon (works after rocks without SPD investment): +2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Vaporeon: 141-166 (29.1 - 34.3%) -- 4.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Arceus-Water (standard set): +2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water: 189-223 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
As well as even more niche picks like Lapras, Polywrath, Politoed, Frillish, and Lanturn. If we consider Clamper'ls default state to be unboosted, then the counters include further things like PDon, Gogoat, and EKiller. Even leaving that aside, however, this is a metagame that includes Primal Groudon. Care to name a single counter to that, much less one that does so after a turn of setup?
+2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 189-223 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina-O: 352-416 (69.8 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hey that doesn't seem fair. So you restrict Clamperl to it's worse set (sub) but your Primal Groudon apparently runs SD, Preciples blades, Dragon claw, Stone edge, Rock polish, Solar beam and fire blast? If you're implying Dclaw, edgequake is uncounterable please search Arceus-Ground

Depending on the set Primal Groudon has 2-3 counters, so you use the argument "You don't know what set it's running, so it's uncounterable, yet you don't apply the same rules to Clamperl?

Hp grass/electric, Surf and Ice beam is literally uncounterable because it 2hkos every single pokemon after rocks, and OHKOs 90%. It also lives any viabile priority attack, even at -1. It has 125 defence, setting up isn't hard.

So, it lives any priority hit, has zero counters and outspeeds like, everything bar some weird ass stuff. Why isn't it banned?

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Hey that doesn't seem fair. So you restrict Clamperl to it's worse set (sub) but your Primal Groudon apparently runs SD, Preciples blades, Dragon claw, Stone edge, Rock polish, Solar beam and fire blast? If you're implying Dclaw, edgequake is uncounterable please search Arceus-Ground

Depending on the set Primal Groudon has 2-3 counters, so you use the argument "You don't know what set it's running, so it's uncounterable, yet you don't apply the same rules to Clamperl?

Hp grass/electric, Surf and Ice beam is literally uncounterable because it 2hkos every single pokemon after rocks, and OHKOs 90%. It also lives any viabile priority attack, even at -1. It has 125 defence, setting up isn't hard.

So, it lives any priority hit, has zero counters and outspeeds like, everything bar some weird ass stuff. Why isn't it banned?

Where tf are you getting those numbers/statements from from?
Sub is its best set, by far, but if you want we can use grass/electric, too. In this case, the list becomes none, but this is stupid. Clamperl doesn't start out at +2- it has to set up- so anything that can live 1 of its attacks and ko back is a counter, especially if its like gogoat and has horn leech.
Also, easily live all priority? 28 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 238-281 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 199-235 (68.3 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Either can kill with a bit of chip, especially if, say, yveltal invests.

I'm using a set of SD/PBlades/SE/Dragon Claw.

+2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ground: 471-555 (106 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
At +2, Pdon is uncounterable by anything. Sure things can switch in while it boosts, but not afterwords.


So, if I make up blanket statements without bothering to calc or check my knowledge, can I get a pokemon banned?

 

[HumbleSpaceMan]

"Sub is it's best set"
What?

Sub is useful against stall teams to avoid the toxic but HP grass/electric is far more valuable against all other team archetypes ko'ing basically every bulky water mon and other niche stuff like Gastrodon and Volcanion.
+2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 286-337 (78.5 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Getting a guaranteed ko rather than a 2ko against stuff like Primal Kyogre is pretty important too.

+2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Hidden Power Grass vs. 142 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 348-410 (92.5 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Surf vs. 142 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre in Heavy Rain: 292-344 (77.6 - 91.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

On whether Clamperl should be banned or not, I really don't think it should be. Setting up is getting incredibly difficult, priority picks it off and it's extremely prone to Knock Off.


I only mentioned Vivillon because of the mention of Lilligant as though Lilli has better stats, Vivi has two stabs and a more accurate Sleep Powder.

 

[Mysterious Player]

"Sub is it's best set"
What?

Sub is useful against stall teams to avoid the toxic but HP grass/electric is far more valuable against all other team archetypes ko'ing basically every bulky water mon and other niche stuff like Gastrodon and Volcanion.
+2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 286-337 (78.5 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Getting a guaranteed ko rather than a 2ko against stuff like Primal Kyogre is pretty important too.

+2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Hidden Power Grass vs. 142 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 348-410 (92.5 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Surf vs. 142 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre in Heavy Rain: 292-344 (77.6 - 91.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

On whether Clamperl should be banned or not, I really don't think it should be. Setting up is getting incredibly difficult, priority picks it off and it's extremely prone to Knock Off.


I only mentioned Vivillon because of the mention of Lilligant as though Lilli has better stats, Vivi has two stabs and a more accurate Sleep Powder.

but Vivillon does not get STAB Giga drain. This matters because at +1/+2, you are not KOing many things. This forces you to take a hit. STAB Giga drain allows you to 2HKO the opponent while healing yourself, allowing you to take more hits while putting enough pressure so the opponent can't recover. While Vivillon can run roost and also have recovery, not only is it not doing damage at the same time (and due to only having 110/80/80 bulk, it will often take 50%+, which would make you lose), but you lose out on dual STABs and coverage, both of which Lilligant can have. While Vivillon can run giga drain, it does much less than what a lilligant's giga drain does.
252 SpA Vivillon Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 78-92 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- 42% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 130-154 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So due to Vivillon having a much harder time sweeping than Lilligant (either no recovery, or no coverage and worse recovery), but indeed having compound eyes sleep powder. I disagree with the Vivillon for B nomination (on post 307) and believe Vivillon Should be C rank at most

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Where tf are you getting those numbers/statements from from?
Sub is its best set, by far, but if you want we can use grass/electric, too. In this case, the list becomes none, but this is stupid. Clamperl doesn't start out at +2- it has to set up- so anything that can live 1 of its attacks and ko back is a counter, especially if its like gogoat and has horn leech.
Also, easily live all priority? 28 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 238-281 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 199-235 (68.3 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Either can kill with a bit of chip, especially if, say, yveltal invests.

I'm using a set of SD/PBlades/SE/Dragon Claw.

+2 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ground: 471-555 (106 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
At +2, Pdon is uncounterable by anything. Sure things can switch in while it boosts, but not afterwords.


So, if I make up blanket statements without bothering to calc or check my knowledge, can I get a pokemon banned?

Lol, Arceus

but Vivillon does not get STAB Giga drain. This matters because at +1/+2, you are not KOing many things. This forces you to take a hit. STAB Giga drain allows you to 2HKO the opponent while healing yourself, allowing you to take more hits while putting enough pressure so the opponent can't recover. While Vivillon can run roost and also have recovery, not only is it not doing damage at the same time (and due to only having 110/80/80 bulk, it will often take 50%+, which would make you lose), but you lose out on dual STABs and coverage, both of which Lilligant can have. While Vivillon can run giga drain, it does much less than what a lilligant's giga drain does.
252 SpA Vivillon Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 78-92 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- 42% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 130-154 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
So due to Vivillon having a much harder time sweeping than Lilligant (either no recovery, or no coverage and worse recovery), but indeed having compound eyes sleep powder. I disagree with the Vivillon for B nomination (on post 307) and believe Vivillon Should be C rank at most

Grass is also one of the absolute worst offensive typings, quite possibly only beaten by bug or steel. Fire, steel, flying, dragon are typings all teams have atleast one or two of. There's a reason there's only one Uber Grass type, to it Grass is a hinderance.

So how are you going to beat them? There's even multiple QUAD resistances to grass. And even then +2 Giga drain is piss poor. Why would I use this over Shatmin? It hits far harder of the bat, can flinch it's counters and has excellent coverage. You could argue that sleep powder is a niche it has, but why wouldn't I use Vivillion for that? More accurate, better stabs (although poor) and has Quiver dance. Vivillion should be C/C+, Lilligant doesn't have a niche. Hurricane hits harder than Giga drain, Vivillion can run Hurricane + Hp ground for excellent coverage while Lilligant is meh.

Because I've been tired of not having any, have some.
Viability Rankings
S rank

Clamperl

Primal Groudon

Xerneas

A+ rank

Chatot

Ho-Oh

Mega Audino

Mega Salamence

Ursaring

A rank

Alomomola

Ghost Arceus

Darkrai

Arceus

Deoxys-S

A- rank

Blissey

Mewtwo

Mega Gengar

Yveltal

Swoobat

Tyrantrum

B+ rank

Primal Kyogre

Latios

Smeargle

Mega Diancie

Ground Arceus

Rotom

Audino

Cresselia

Klefki

B rank

Avalugg

Omastar

Flareon

Malamar

Ferrothorn

Marowak

Ditto

Mega Sableye

Giratina Origin

Flygon


B- rank

Cryogonal

Rayquaza

Golduck

Rotom-Heat

Latias

Pikachu

Gogoat

Deoxys-Attack

Espeon

C Ranks

Meganium

Bronzong

Miltank

Mega Mewtwo X

Frogadier

Hoopa-C

So, to improve upon this:
What low tiered, viable mons have I missed?
What have I overhyped, or overrated?
What is undervalued on this list?
Where should the rest of the Ubers go, or should some of them not get ranked at all?

Edit: as a clarification, the ranks are supposed to be alphabetic order and anywhere they aren't is just me being lazy- I'll get to them later. Just because they are higher up doesn't mean they are better. Clamperl, for instance, is not considered better than PDon- it's just that C comes before P
[/hide]

cool stuff P11 :}

I'd like to suggest that a) All ubers should be ranked, in Ubers metagame all of them should be ranked as... Uh. Well they just do, since it's a different meta.

Moves: Drop Mega Audino to B

My justification for this is that it really isnmt that dominating. The boosted stats are lovely, and it's one of the bulkies mons in the tier, if not the most. However, it's painfully passive, only really having Dazzling gleam at it's disposal meaning Primal Groudon comes in and starts spamming Lava plume or sets up rocks/twace/ a Swords dance. It can't afford to not run toxic because of WishTect and heal bell. What does it really do? Fodder for both all three S rank mons and really only walls things weak to fairy, and Mega Gengar traps and easily beats it.

Drop:

Mewtwo to C - this gains nothing besides more counters
Smesrgle to unranked - has no niche, it can't baton pass and Deoxys-S is a better lead
Deoxys-S to B+ - it's good but very one dimensional
Golduck to unranked - you paired it side by side with the pokemon that outclasses it, Rayquaza. Ray does the same job, only better.

------------

On the Clamperl discussion, there's no resson to run it with sub lol. Why dodge status when you can just kill everything. Of course it's not flawless, priority can be annoying... But. it's so... Powerful. What, doesn't Clamperls minimum damage do 70% more than Xerneas at +2... Insane. It's bulkier than Mega Mawile lol

Edit. To p11 sorry, I formatted it poorly, the "arceus lol" part was me trying to respond to something else entirely :p

 

[Mysterious Player]

Lol, Arceus

Grass is also one of the absolute worst offensive typings, quite possibly only beaten by bug or steel. Fire, steel, flying, dragon are typings all teams have atleast one or two of. There's a reason there's only one Uber Grass type, to it Grass is a hinderance.

So how are you going to beat them? There's even multiple QUAD resistances to grass. And even then +2 Giga drain is piss poor. Why would I use this over Shatmin? It hits far harder of the bat, can flinch it's counters and has excellent coverage. You could argue that sleep powder is a niche it has, but why wouldn't I use Vivillion for that? More accurate, better stabs (although poor) and has Quiver dance. Vivillion should be C/C+, Lilligant doesn't have a niche. Hurricane hits harder than Giga drain, Vivillion can run Hurricane + Hp ground for excellent coverage while Lilligant is meh.

your underestimating the importance of recovery here. For starters, Hurricane hits just as hard as giga drain.
252 SpA Life Orb Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 169-200 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 169-201 (49.5 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
and lets say Lilligant runs HP ice. There are only 5 mons that are either poison, fire, or steel type on the rankings (one is PDon, who is neutral to grass, and I have seen like, 2 Ho-Oh, some flareon, and no ferrothorn/klefki, and hp rock is a possibility so you may not want to switch in Ho-Oh right away.) The reason recovery is important is because, as you said, +2 giga drain isent OHKOing things. It is 2HKOing things, so mons have to OHKO you. Vivillon doesent have recovery that also does damage, so it can be weakened and killed. You can't say the same about Lilligant due to giga drain. So Vivillon hits just as hard as lilligant, has a more accurate sleep powder, but loses recovery. You can put Lilligant lower, but to say Lilligant doesent have a niche is wrong.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

"Sub is it's best set"
What?

Sub is useful against stall teams to avoid the toxic but HP grass/electric is far more valuable against all other team archetypes ko'ing basically every bulky water mon and other niche stuff like Gastrodon and Volcanion.
+2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 286-337 (78.5 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Getting a guaranteed ko rather than a 2ko against stuff like Primal Kyogre is pretty important too.

+2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Hidden Power Grass vs. 142 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre: 348-410 (92.5 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Surf vs. 142 HP / 0 SpD Primal Kyogre in Heavy Rain: 292-344 (77.6 - 91.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

On whether Clamperl should be banned or not, I really don't think it should be. Setting up is getting incredibly difficult, priority picks it off and it's extremely prone to Knock Off.


I only mentioned Vivillon because of the mention of Lilligant as though Lilli has better stats, Vivi has two stabs and a more accurate Sleep Powder.

SUb is, in all my experience, its best set. Sucker punch is common on offense, and substitute lets it dodge that while not just making itself frailer like shell smashing again does. It also allows Clamperl to take advantage of things like leech seed, ease prediction, stop ditto from copying it, take on smeargle, avoid thunder wave, and be much harder to deal with reliably.

Lol, Arceus

Thank you for your stunning commentary. Your additions to this conversation are both insightful and appreciated.

Grass is also one of the absolute worst offensive typings, quite possibly only beaten by bug or steel. Fire, steel, flying, dragon are typings all teams have atleast one or two of. There's a reason there's only one Uber Grass type, to it Grass is a hinderance.

So how are you going to beat them? There's even multiple QUAD resistances to grass. And even then +2 Giga drain is piss poor. Why would I use this over Shatmin? It hits far harder of the bat, can flinch it's counters and has excellent coverage. You could argue that sleep powder is a niche it has, but why wouldn't I use Vivillion for that? More accurate, better stabs (although poor) and has Quiver dance. Vivillion should be C/C+, Lilligant doesn't have a niche. Hurricane hits harder than Giga drain, Vivillion can run Hurricane + Hp ground for excellent coverage while Lilligant is meh.

To be fair, a lot of the reason that there are no uber grasses is that there are very few grass types with stats of any sort. There are also a few like Ferrothorn and Amoongus that are decent in ubers as well. Shaymin also does appreciate the wallbreaking power of seed flare, although this isn't really relevant as almost any other type would do just as well/better if Shaymin-S had stab.
I can definitely see why vivilion has a niche, although the rocks weakness makes me leery (it's certainly no Ho-Oh). This only really precludes it from being, say, A ranked- C seems perfectly fine for it.

your underestimating the importance of recovery here. For starters, Hurricane hits just as hard as giga drain.
252 SpA Life Orb Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 169-200 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 169-201 (49.5 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
and lets say Lilligant runs HP ice. There are only 5 mons that are either poison, fire, or steel type on the rankings (one is PDon, who is neutral to grass, and I have seen like, 2 Ho-Oh, some flareon, and no ferrothorn/klefki, and hp rock is a possibility so you may not want to switch in Ho-Oh right away.) The reason recovery is important is because, as you said, +2 giga drain isent OHKOing things. It is 2HKOing things, so mons have to OHKO you. Vivillon doesent have recovery that also does damage, so it can be weakened and killed. You can't say the same about Lilligant due to giga drain. So Vivillon hits just as hard as lilligant, has a more accurate sleep powder, but loses recovery. You can put Lilligant lower, but to say Lilligant doesent have a niche is wrong.

Every mon that doesn't have a completely outclassed stat spread/movepool/ability has a niche. That doesn't make them good or relevant.
The idea that with a life orb lilligant hits as hard as vivilion? Laughable. Not only is flying an amazing type, Vivilion can just run a boosting item of its own. I could buy Petal Dance as a reason, but being locked in is rather suboptimal.

 

[Mysterious Player]

SUb is, in all my experience, its best set. Sucker punch is common on offense, and substitute lets it dodge that while not just making itself frailer like shell smashing again does. It also allows Clamperl to take advantage of things like leech seed, ease prediction, stop ditto from copying it, take on smeargle, avoid thunder wave, and be much harder to deal with reliably.

Thank you for your stunning commentary. Your additions to this conversation are both insightful and appreciated.

To be fair, a lot of the reason that there are no uber grasses is that there are very few grass types with stats of any sort. There are also a few like Ferrothorn and Amoongus that are decent in ubers as well. Shaymin also does appreciate the wallbreaking power of seed flare, although this isn't really relevant as almost any other type would do just as well/better if Shaymin-S had stab.
I can definitely see why vivilion has a niche, although the rocks weakness makes me leery (it's certainly no Ho-Oh). This only really precludes it from being, say, A ranked- C seems perfectly fine for it.

Every mon that doesn't have a completely outclassed stat spread/movepool/ability has a niche. That doesn't make them good or relevant.
The idea that with a life orb lilligant hits as hard as vivilion? Laughable. Not only is flying an amazing type, Vivilion can just run a boosting item of its own. I could buy Petal Dance as a reason, but being locked in is rather suboptimal.

I never said that lilligant hitting as hard as a vivillon was a point. Someone else just said that vivillon hits harder,and thats not necessarily true

Will drop the argument though I guess.

 

[colourcodedchaos]

So, is Eelektross any good in this meta? I mean, with a new statline of 105/135/100/125/100/70, it's certainly tough, and I doubt much of anything likes having to deal neutral damage to it with the AssVesTross set, especially if you go bulky... thoughts?

EDIT: I've also been wondering about Lickilicky. Here's a slightly non-standard set that makes use of its newly boosted statline:-

Pink'un (Lickilicky) @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Rest
- Belly Drum
- Return
- Power Whip

Given the fact that Lickilicky's new statline is pretty bloody monstrous (150/125/135/120/135/90, for those playing along at home), I definitely think that it's worth considering a Belly Drumming set. Admittedly, ChestoRest is its only recovery outside Leftovers, but I still think it's worth using. STAB +6 Return off a fully invested Attack stat hits like a speeding train, and while there aren't many options for coverage, you can generally do something. Power Whip savages bulky Water-types like Slowbro, for instance, while Hammer Arm and Brick Break can be used to smash irritating Steel-types. There's a bit of 4MSS here, but it's still not bad. At least, I don't think so, anyway. You guys be the judge. =]

 

[Calista]

Unfortunately, Eelektross has a stat spread that would fit better in OU than Ubers, where 120 is an average stat. It can't even come in on Ho-Ohs Brave Bird more than once and is easily outlasted by Regenerator and strong attackers like Yveltal can 2HKO with neutral special attacks. Also Primal Groudon destroys it even with Levitate.
Lickilicky does have a decent support set that can circumvent setup sweepers with Body Slam, Knock Off and Dragon Tail. Any offensive set is probably highly outclassed by the faster and more powerful Normal-types in the meta such as Arceus, Tauros and Ursaring. Also, base 90 speed isn't really what you want from a Belly Drum sweeper. It does have the surprise factor on its side, but every team is prepared for Normal-spam, so it likely won't be sweeping much.

 

[colourcodedchaos]

Unfortunately, Eelektross has a stat spread that would fit better in OU than Ubers, where 120 is an average stat. It can't even come in on Ho-Ohs Brave Bird more than once and is easily outlasted by Regenerator and strong attackers like Yveltal can 2HKO with neutral special attacks. Also Primal Groudon destroys it even with Levitate.
Lickilicky does have a decent support set that can circumvent setup sweepers with Body Slam, Knock Off and Dragon Tail. Any offensive set is probably highly outclassed by the faster and more powerful Normal-types in the meta such as Arceus, Tauros and Ursaring. Also, base 90 speed isn't really what you want from a Belly Drum sweeper. It does have the surprise factor on its side, but every team is prepared for Normal-spam, so it likely won't be sweeping much.

Thanks for the advice! I appreciate you taking the time to tell me why it wouldn't work. =]

 

[frogstomperful]

Can Beheeyem be looked at?

Beheeyem @ Life Orb
New stats (PU): 115/115/115/165/135/80
Ability: Analytic
IV's: 0 Attack, 0 Speed, 31's elsewhere
EV's: 252 HP, 252 SpA, 4 Defense
Nature: Quiet or Modest

- Psychic
- Thunderbolt / Shadow Ball / Signal Beam
- (one other of the above) / Energy Ball / HP Ground or Fighting
- Recover / Protect / Calm Mind / Nasty Plot

EDIT: Correction, every attack receives LO boost, period -- was thinking of the Sheer Force ability.

I don't know where on the chart it should be but I think it needs to be on the chart.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

Can Beheeyem be looked at?

Beheeyem @ Life Orb
New stats (PU): 115/115/115/165/135/80
Ability: Analytic
IV's: 0 Attack, 0 Speed, 31's elsewhere
EV's: 252 HP, 252 SpA, 4 Defense
Nature: Quiet or Modest

- Psychic
- Thunderbolt / Shadow Ball / Signal Beam
- (one other of the above) / Energy Ball / HP Ground or Fighting
- Recover / Protect / Calm Mind / Nasty Plot

Every attack but Hidden Power gets a Life Orb boost.

I don't know where on the chart it should be but I think it needs to be on the chart.

Why doesn't Hidden Power get a Life Orb boost? Unless there is something I'm missing, Hidden Power is an attack, and LO boosts the power of attacks. The only moves not boosted by LO should be the ones you have slashed in slot 4. Maybe you were thinking LO only boosts the power of moves with secondary effects? (That's the effect of Sheer Force [an ability] and the only thing I could find that connected the other moves and sorta fit in with what you were saying.)

 

[HumbleSpaceMan]

Beheeyem does look formidable on paper with those stats and movepool but in reality i find it quite underwhelming. Dark, Ghost and Bug moves are everywhere in this meta, especially Knock Off and that speed stat doesn't help. However looking at the rankings it definitely seems better than mons like Cresselia ranked at B+ for some reason(WHY?) and Espeon at B-(Xatu does Magic Bounce better).

Also i think this has been mentioned but Deoxys-S outclasses Smeargle completely so not sure why it's ranked so highly at B+.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Beheeyem does look formidable on paper with those stats and movepool but in reality i find it quite underwhelming. Dark, Ghost and Bug moves are everywhere in this meta, especially Knock Off and that speed stat doesn't help. However looking at the rankings it definitely seems better than mons like Cresselia ranked at B+ for some reason(WHY?) and Espeon at B-(Xatu does Magic Bounce better).

Also i think this has been mentioned but Deoxys-S outclasses Smeargle completely so not sure why it's ranked so highly at B+.

Cresselia is ranked at B+ for its great movepool, nice ability, decent typing, and amazing stats. In standard its good enough to be used in ubers; here, it gets buffed and takes on several of the new threats while providing the incredibly valuable lunar dance support. It can also set trick room, has magic coat to stop hazards, and decent iffensive stats to punish mons like MMence or Chatot.

Espeon has several advantages over Xatu, such as baton pass, better typing, a movepool, an offensive prescence (140 spa isn't terrible), and a better movepool with things like heal bell and wish. Xatu probably does deserve a rank, but I'd like to wait until someone uses it effectively before I pull it out of the C.

Generally speaking, we use "outclassed" when one mon does what the other one does better, not when one is more viable than the others. Otherwise, everything not an S-Rank would be outclassed.

 

[Calista]

I just realized Tauros is not ranked at all. It has good speed and decent attack boosted by Sheer Force on STAB Rock Climb allowing it to 2HKO any but Bold Support Arceus, which fall with a Spike up, given that Rocks are on the field. It can run special moves such as Ice Beam to OHKO Mega Mence or Fire Blast for the likes of Ferrothorn. But the bulk level in this tier is high, so its true advantage over Ursaring and EKiller is his higher speed from the get-go, greatly improving its matchup versus offensive teams and lets it hit fast threats around the 130 speed tier with the approriate coverage move (most importantly Chatot). Unfortunately it misses out on many OHKOes without the help of some hazards or even work up, which would decrease its coverage options. This leaves the opponent with the opportunity to set up a DD or Geomancy, so Tauros can't really do much until the Lategame. Unless, however, you put it on a Normal-spam team with EKiller and maybe even Ursaring or Chatot. There, it can either punch some holes or even clean after those holes have been punched by something else.
Overall, I think it fits in B rank for its good speed and decent power.
Also Klefki seems slightly better than the other B+ mons and I think A- suits it better.

 

[sin(pi)]

Espeon has several advantages over Xatu, such as baton pass, better typing, a movepool, an offensive prescence (140 spa isn't terrible), and a better movepool with things like heal bell and wish. Xatu probably does deserve a rank, but I'd like to wait until someone uses it effectively before I pull it out of the C.

Xatu also gets CM+BP, and Wish (I don't know why I know this), an arguably better movepool in general, and, debatably, a better typing. It's bulkier on both sides, faster, and while a fair bit weaker, 125 isn't bad. Now I've never played ETS, but in theory Xatu looks much better unless you want a cleric.

Comparison of stats and movepool:
Espeon(+10) - 75/75/70/140/105/120
Xatu(+30) - 95/105/100/125/100/125

Espeon - heal bell, semireliable 8PP recovery in morning sun, BP
Xatu - reliable 16PP recovery in roost, haze, defog (lol), twave, u-turn if you're into that, heat wave, tailwind

*sorry if I've made any mistakes, searching stuff on mobile is hard.

edit: BP is illegal with Magic Bounce on Xatu, rip

 

[Scarf]

Xatu also gets CM+BP, and Wish (I don't know why I know this), an arguably better movepool in general, and, debatably, a better typing. It's bulkier on both sides, faster, and while a fair bit weaker, 125 isn't bad. Now I've never played ETS, but in theory Xatu looks much better unless you want a cleric.

Comparison of stats and movepool:
Espeon(+10) - 75/75/70/140/105/120
Xatu(+30) - 95/105/100/125/100/125

Espeon - heal bell, semireliable 8PP recovery in morning sun
Xatu - reliable 16PP recovery in roost, haze, defog (lol), magic coat if you really hate mold breaker, twave, u-turn if you're into that, heat wave, tailwind

*sorry if I've made any mistakes, searching stuff on mobile is hard.

small nitpick, Espeon also gets Wish so it isn't necessarily reliant on Morning Sun for recovery: