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Chatot discourages teambuilding, because although it has counters - probably some mons with own tempo - that's all the counters it has. Chatter makes it a 50-50, meaning it can very well beat anything that doesn't have soundproof/oblivious/own tempo.
It promotes lazy teambuilding where as instead of preparing for stall opponents slugishly puts a chatot on their team and calls it done.
Yeah, this is completely fair.
It isn't quite that bad, as both lum and Mr.Mime :) are a thing (and so are sound attacks of your own, there is a limit to how long you can be confused for) and regenerator, but that doesn't make it okay. ATM I'm just not sure its better VS Stall than, say MGar or Tauntrai, or that if it isn't its supposed better match up vs offense is a big enough factor.
As it happens, scarf Machamp is 1 speed slower (still oustpeeding Arceus by 1 point, which is nice because), while machoke has 70 extra speed with a scarf. Not all confuse Ray can be taunted, either- magic bounce does exist, although that has a ton more opportunity cost because you aren't dealing damage at the same time.
As far as strong priority goes, however, on most offense that is pretty much required, and stall can afford to run blissey, which takes about 0 from confusion damage or uninvested chatter (you aren't running sub+roost on a set with nasty plot), while regenvests like Slowking can pivot in and out basically for free. That's not even getting into the king of TS stall, mr mime.
To me, uncompetitive is a decent argument, but one I'm not sure is valid. For instance, confusion has only a 50% chance of immobilizing you, while serene grace shaymin-s has a 60% chance on a similarly powered attack. Not only that, but shaymin-sky is also faster, has leech seed for subseed, and can fit its main attack and boosting into one slot (seed flare), but isn't even close to banworthy. The best chatot set is probably sub plot chatter boomburst, which is an excellent stall breaker and not much else. Notably, offense destroys it, which in an ubers based metagame is huge.
Ghosts can still handle Dynamic Punches while confuse ray should only be run if you sole aim is to try to get ragequits.Not to mention you become insta-setup bait for Sub mons. The only reason i mentioned these is too show how confusion in general isn't uncompetitive but Chatter is since it has no true ways of avoiding it.
Shaymin-S is honestly a different argument altogether. Flinching can be extremely haxy but unlike confusion it requires you to keep attacking. Confusion on the other hand allows you to get a sub up or roost away damage and wait for your opponent's Ursaring to hit himself to oblivion while dying of Burn damage while Shaymin runs the risk of not getting the flinch and dying.
Agreed Blissey can just plomp itself into front of Chatot but what is it going to do? Sub prevents status and Chatot can just Roost away Seismic Toss damage. Not to mention Blissey is huge setup bait to a lot of mons.
SubPlot Chatot can be even more dangerous as hitting yourself even once can result in a sweep.
Anyways I'll say again that Chatot is in no way broken. But it does make games overly dependant on luck which is pretty annoying.
This is more of a question for the OM room than here, and heavily depends on what type of team your making. Some rules of thumb for TS offensive teams, however, to have some combination of strong priority, chatot, ursaring a normal resist or two (preferably at least one of which should be a ghost or have special bulk), and some sweepers like xerneas, pdon, or clamperl. Stall has to do the reverse, and find mons to deal with these such as a bulky wall, blissey/sylveon/slowking, rhydon/cofragious/aegislash/rhypherior, PDon, and alomonolomolmonola. Start there, and test out your team to find flaws, and then patch them.
Due to Electrode's hilariously good speed tier, it doesn't even need speed investment as it hits 392 speed without any EVs! So you can run a super fast bulky offensive set.
GOOD JOKE (Electrode) @ Life Orb
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Taunt
Thunderbolt is your main STAB move. Volt Switch lets you switch and gain momentum. HP Ice often OHKOes Rayquaza. Taunt makes your foe unable of setting up or statusing you.
Set Details:
Since you're going to be insanely fast, you don't need any speed EV investment, if you're crazy enough, go ahead and put full EV investment in speed, but you'll be less bulky. Soundproof makes it literally "CHATOTPROOF", making it immune to Chatter and Boomburst.
If anyone is interested, here is a comparison between Mawile (Now PU) and Mega-Mawile in power.
Mawile:
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile (125 Atk) Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 235-278 (58.1 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile (125 Atk) Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 265-313 (65.5 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mawile Sucker Punch (125 Atk) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 244-289 (60.3 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mega Mawile:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 247-292 (61.1 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 279-328 (69 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 330-390 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Regular Mawile now is slightly less powerful than its own Mega, but now has the same Defenses with more bulk, doesn't take up a Mega Slot, and is faster now.
Mega mawile doesn't have to worry about knock off, trying to use sheer force and mawile wasn't very good in ubers anyhow : / it's like how maril out classes azumaril now but just has no place in this tier even still
Mega mawile doesn't have to worry about knock off, trying to use sheer force and mawile wasn't very good in ubers anyhow : / it's like how maril out classes azumaril now but just has no place in this tier even still
With this tier having a lot of normal spam like most OM's and spinblocking having a pretty vital niche since Avalugg is a thing, Ghosts are definitely in demand.
While the're a lot of great PU mons that can fulfil this rule, for balance teams I would say the best mon is none other the God himself - Arceus.
This is the set i use mainly as a defensive switch in and rock setter.
Counters a lot of stuff though Guts Normal mons completely wall it and use it as bait. Focus blast over SR is an option but i prefered rocks for my team. The main thing that sets it apart from other bulkier mons is that speed, allowing it to outspeed mons like Rampardos. A pseudo resistance to Knock off helps as well. Avalugg can't do much at all except phase iyou out and you can just switch right in especially if you got a burn in.
May I suggest Golduck? He is great as s PG (Primal Groudon) counter, as he has access to cloud nine.
Golduck @ Expert Belt/ Life Orb
Ability: Cloud Nine
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
He does have some uses outside of being a PG check, like countering Flareon, but be careful with him, as he can be somewhat fragile if not used properly. I'd use him with weezing so you have a good physical switch in.
May I suggest Golduck? He is great as s PG (Primal Groudon) counter, as he has access to cloud nine.
Golduck @ Expert Belt/ Life Orb
Ability: Cloud Nine
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
He does have some uses outside of being a PG check, like countering Flareon, but be careful with him, as he can be somewhat fragile if not used properly. I'd use him with weezing so you have a good physical switch in.
You say it below, so I assume so, but do you mean check? PDon can do upwards of 70%, and if it runs dragon tail you aren't countering at all. In addition, golduck isn't all that strong (135 spa), so I'm wondering why I'd use it over, say, Pogre.
Outside if that, I'm working on a viability ranking right now, but I only have played offense in extreme tier shift, so anyone else who wants to help would be appreciated. VM me and I'll link the piratepad.
You say it below, so I assume so, but do you mean check? PDon can do upwards of 70%, and if it runs dragon tail you aren't countering at all. In addition, golduck isn't all that strong (135 spa), so I'm wondering why I'd use it over, say, Pogre.
Outside if that, I'm working on a viability ranking rn, but I only have played offense in eats, so anyone else who wants to help would be appreciated. VM me and I'll link the piratepad.
if anything I'd assume that they're confusing the terms "counter" and "check" with each other. it's an easy mistake to make I feel, particularly when one's talking about a meta that isn't really defined that well yet like ETS
on the note of Golduck, the main niche I see for it over P-Ogre, other than having 120/118 physical bulk compared to Ogre's 100/90 as well as being quite a bit faster, is that Cloud Nine can't be overwritten by Desolate Land under any circumstances to my knowledge whereas Primordial Sea can be gotten rid of simply by switching P-Don out and back in again. in the end though, Golduck's significant drop in power (135 Sp. Atk versus 180, plus no 1.5x boost to Water moves) means that it's generally not going to be very useful outside of checking P-Don more effectively. that's how I can describe my experiences with using Golduck myself, really: it checks P-Don well but other than that + Encore support (which I'm running over CM as Golduck isn't bulky enough to boost in ETS from my experience) it simply hasn't been that useful for me while laddering, and indeed I've found Marowak to be nearly as effective at checking slower P-Don variants (though it certainly struggles with Solar Beam variants) while not being deadweight in other matchups due to its insane damage output with Thick Club and solid bulk. so, while Golduck has a distinct niche it's not the sort of thing that should be run on every team, at least from what I've seen. (probably wrong about a lot of this but these are just my thoughts)
While Pdon is still an amazing mon that can be amazingly versatile, it isn't as metagame-defining as it was in ubers, so i really don't think that using an ordinary mon like Golduck can be justified merely because it checks Pdon especially since as Stocke mentioned, can be checked with better mons like Marowak.
Talking about Pdon, Solrock while looking like a perfect counter to it on paper, it fails to counter Solarbeam variants which are quite popular.
252+ SpA Primal Groudon Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Solrock: 306-360 (72.1 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Pikachu is a decently powerful electric type with an acceptable movepool. It comes short of sweeping most teams, however, so many people prefer other extremely powerful attackers like clamperl. If you are running Pikachu, may I suggest running nasty plot? It increases your power so you get key KOs, and allows Pikachu to sweep weakened teams.
Sadly for Pikachu, and most other eletric types as well, Primal Groudin exists and is extremely metagame defining, so it can't spam its stab.
Because I've been tired of not having any, have some. Viability Rankings S rank
Clamperl
Primal Groudon
Xerneas
A+ rank
Chatot
Ho-Oh
Mega Audino
Mega Salamence
Ursaring
A rank
Alomomola
Ghost Arceus
Darkrai
Arceus
Deoxys-S
A- rank
Blissey
Mewtwo
Mega Gengar
Yveltal
Swoobat
Tyrantrum
B+ rank
Primal Kyogre
Latios
Smeargle
Mega Diancie
Ground Arceus
Rotom
Audino
Cresselia
Klefki
B rank
Avalugg
Omastar
Flareon
Malamar
Ferrothorn
Marowak
Ditto
Mega Sableye
Giratina Origin
Flygon
B- rank
Cryogonal
Rayquaza
Golduck
Rotom-Heat
Latias
Pikachu
Gogoat
Deoxys-Attack
Espeon
C Ranks
Meganium
Vivilion
Bronzong
Miltank
Mega Mewtwo X
Frogadier
Hoopa-C
Xatu
Edit: as a clarification, the ranks are supposed to be alphabetic order and anywhere they aren't is just me being lazy- I'll get to them later. Just because they are higher up doesn't mean they are better. Clamperl, for instance, is not considered better than PDon- it's just that C comes before P
Nice viability ranking quantum. And nice how it still can be improved :D
'Ubers' I'd like to see added are definitely lugia and ferrothorn. Lugia and ferrothorn both do very well against the physical normal spam that's going on right now in the tier. Lugia was already a great uber but even more so now that a lot of physical normal types are introduced into the tier. I'd say A+ but A would work as well if people dont like stall.
I'd say ferrothorn is about A- with nice spikes seeding action. Defog doesn't seem to be run as much nowadays.
About overhype, I think chatot is too much of a one-trick pony to be A rank. 130 spA is good but not incredibly amazing in ubers, and though it has two good moves in chatter and boomburst they're also its only attacking moves pretty much.
Also marowak is alright but way overhyped in my opinion since its only really powerful attack is still bonemerang so any flyer/levitator/resister with a decent defense will have an easy time. Again it has good power but it wasn't in pu because of a lack of power but because of a lack of versatility. Also its speed is mediocre still. I'd put chatot in B+ and marowak in B-
A mon that I've used to decent success is Omastar, which is quite possibly the best Toxic Spikes user in the tier and a great HO lead. I'd put it in B+ above Rotom (yes, Marowak isn't that good) for it is not as consistent as Deo-S at its job but has high offensive presence, coverage of your choice and those T Spikes that Deoxys would kill for.
Also, I would just swap Diancie-Mega and Espeon. Psychic is just so bad defensively and while both don't have the best bulk, Diancies typing and coverage, plus utility moves are much better than stuff Espeon could do. This is especially prevelant in the stall matchup imo.
Also, why is Blissey ranked higher than Arceus? ._. Of course Normal-types are well-prepered for but Arceus still can choose its counters like no other. Also, ESpeed is offensive Support that is just second to none and a must on HO teams to check dangerous sweepers.
I have not used Rayquaza personally, but seeing how it can 2HKO even Mega-Audino and Alomomola with the Choice Band set, checks Primal Groudon and still has a decently strong ESpeed, it's no way C Rank below Meganium :o
I still don't think that Clamperl is the best mon in the meta. It does have very high offensive potential, but it's just outsped and severely damaged if not outright KOed by everything. It does have a decent Stall matchup but even then it hates status and Knock Off, so it can't really set up comfortably against a well-build team. People should really use SubSmash, it's just so much better at anything but hitting Kyogre. Imo it's S based on this set alone, but I'd put it in second ;)
Also, Bronzong does ~something~, so it should at least be included in some form. It checks a ton of stuff but is really passive so it would probably be fine somewhere at the bottom.
I'd put in Weezing somewhere in the viability rankings. I've found I win a lot more with weezing than without. I definitely agree with ghost arceus however, I've found him extremely useful. I've also been able to counter clamperl rather easily.
Nice viability ranking quantum. And nice how it still can be improved :D
'Ubers' I'd like to see added are definitely lugia and ferrothorn. Lugia and ferrothorn both do very well against the physical normal spam that's going on right now in the tier. Lugia was already a great uber but even more so now that a lot of physical normal types are introduced into the tier. I'd say A+ but A would work as well if people dont like stall.
I'd say ferrothorn is about A- with nice spikes seeding action. Defog doesn't seem to be run as much nowadays.
About overhype, I think chatot is too much of a one-trick pony to be A rank. 130 spA is good but not incredibly amazing in ubers, and though it has two good moves in chatter and boomburst they're also its only attacking moves pretty much.
Also marowak is alright but way overhyped in my opinion since its only really powerful attack is still bonemerang so any flyer/levitator/resister with a decent defense will have an easy time. Again it has good power but it wasn't in pu because of a lack of power but because of a lack of versatility. Also its speed is mediocre still. I'd put chatot in B+ and marowak in B-
marowak is def deserving of its current rank, its basically got groudon level bulk, which is still good bulk in this meta, while having an offensive stat that even some of the best mons in the tier covet. with the additional bulk, its versatility easily is bolstered now that its not just some "Frail, slow nuke" as now it can take on the roll of a REALLY hard hitting tank, or a super powerful wallbreaker or even a mix of both. its also got some insane coverage and options to choose from. double edge(due to rock head) EQ, bonemerang, stone edge, fire punch, knock off, stealth rock, swords dance. its VERY versatile, especially in this meta, since both offense and stall have a hard time tanking its hits and KOing back.
and whats this about bonemerang being its only strong attack? all of maro's attacks are
100 base power at the least. and 120 doubled is far from "laughable".
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 178-210 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
that is marowak almost 2hkoing the bulkiest monster in the tier. and before you say it doesnt 2hko:
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 122-144 (25.7 - 30.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
groudon doesn't even come close without its STAB
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg in Harsh Sunshine: 204-242 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
and doesnt manage it WITH stab fire punch if it still has leftovers.
252 Atk Choice Band Archeops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 236-278 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 70.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
stab choice banded archeops only barely manages to 2hko avalugg. choice banded stab stone edge off 170 attack. 70.3% chance to 2hko a ice type
actually...speaking about avalugg...why is it B rank? its typing is def not a "Hindrance" now that some of the biggest offensive behemoths are shrugged off by this monster tank. not to mention that hazard removal is pretty coveted, and avalugg is far from a "sitting duck" with 157 attack with a 120 base power nuke button lol. i get its specially weak, but lets be serious here, avalugg is the physical version of blissey...but with an offensive backbone and actual solid special bulk. at least give it A-, seriously, i encorage people to use it. its been a absolute god on my stall teams. and i dont think quags removal hits it THAT badly. i mean, its better then alomomola ngl...
anyways, back on point, time to show some bulky flying types/levitator/resists and how reliable they are now that ive shown that ava is a absoloute monster:
-1 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Stone Edge vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 240-284 (68.3 - 80.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Marowak: 318-375 (78.7 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ow but you win in the end even if you lose the 50/50.
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 180-212 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gogoat: 240-284 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(this set should never exist, but for sake of calc)
4 Atk Gogoat Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Marowak: 152-182 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 262-310 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 0 SpA Cresselia Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Marowak: 118-141 (29.2 - 34.9%) -- 11.1% chance to 3HKO (oops forgot to increase spc attack..but still you get my point)
of course, maro doesnt beat ALL of these 100% of the time ezpz...but that's still not "decent defense" having a "easy time" these are defensive ground immune/resisting titans being almost 2hkoed by common maro coverage.
marowak is def deserving of its current rank, its basically got groudon level bulk, which is still good bulk in this meta, while having an offensive stat that even some of the best mons in the tier covet. with the additional bulk, its versatility easily is bolstered now that its not just some "Frail, slow nuke" as now it can take on the roll of a REALLY hard hitting tank, or a super powerful wallbreaker or even a mix of both. its also got some insane coverage and options to choose from. double edge(due to rock head) EQ, bonemerang, stone edge, fire punch, knock off, stealth rock, swords dance. its VERY versatile, especially in this meta, since both offense and stall have a hard time tanking its hits and KOing back.
gonna have to second this, Marowak is good and its current rank definitely isn't overselling it. at the moment I'm using a Swords Dance wallbreaker set with 204 speed EVs (specifically to outspeed uninvested base 110s, namely Solrock and maybe some bulkier Latias variants though I haven't seen either of those much on the ladder) and it's worked out quite well while laddering as Marowak's decent bulk even with little investment allows it to set up fairly easily on slower 'mons lacking Knock Off or a move that can inflict burns. Marowak is extremely hard to switch into unboosted as it is, but Swords Dance boosts its power to the point that it's nearly unwallable. To put this into perspective, after a Swords Dance boost it can do things like potentially 2HKO fully-invested Tangela after Rocks with Earthquake (or Bonemerang, Earthquake is just my preference):
+2 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 178-210 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
That said, it's by no means perfect. A fast Knock Off and of course burns neuter it pretty effectively given that it's a physical attacker reliant on its held item for a significant portion of its damage output, and even with substantial Speed investment like I'm running it's by no means fast enough to outspeed most offensive threats, meaning that it can have trouble setting up against fast, offensive teams. That said though, most teams in ETS from my observation have at least one 'mon that Marowak can set up against, so I think for that reason I'd consider Swords Dance Marowak's best set at the moment.
Nice viability ranking quantum. And nice how it still can be improved :D
'Ubers' I'd like to see added are definitely lugia and ferrothorn. Lugia and ferrothorn both do very well against the physical normal spam that's going on right now in the tier. Lugia was already a great uber but even more so now that a lot of physical normal types are introduced into the tier. I'd say A+ but A would work as well if people dont like stall.
I'd say ferrothorn is about A- with nice spikes seeding action. Defog doesn't seem to be run as much nowadays.
About overhype, I think chatot is too much of a one-trick pony to be A rank. 130 spA is good but not incredibly amazing in ubers, and though it has two good moves in chatter and boomburst they're also its only attacking moves pretty much.
Also marowak is alright but way overhyped in my opinion since its only really powerful attack is still bonemerang so any flyer/levitator/resister with a decent defense will have an easy time. Again it has good power but it wasn't in pu because of a lack of power but because of a lack of versatility. Also its speed is mediocre still. I'd put chatot in B+ and marowak in B-
I think A is probably fine for it, as thats its ubers rank and it hasn't gained anything. While the increase in normals does help, the decrease in hazard removal greatly injures it- as does the fact that so many new wallbreakers were added, like ursaring (2hko's), Clamperl, Marowak... If someone else would like to weigh in that'd be great.
Ferro is a great idea, added preliminary at B but subject to change if a good argument is given one way or another.
Chatot is definitally great, though- Chatter is one of the best moves, boomburst is a nuke, it gets nasty plot for boosting, heatwave for steel coverage, uturn for pivoting, roost for longevity, Taunt to beat stall even worse than it already does... I can see it going down, but its stupidly effectibve and powerful.
A mon that I've used to decent success is Omastar, which is quite possibly the best Toxic Spikes user in the tier and a great HO lead. I'd put it in B+ above Rotom (yes, Marowak isn't that good) for it is not as consistent as Deo-S at its job but has high offensive presence, coverage of your choice and those T Spikes that Deoxys would kill for.
Also, I would just swap Diancie-Mega and Espeon. Psychic is just so bad defensively and while both don't have the best bulk, Diancies typing and coverage, plus utility moves are much better than stuff Espeon could do. This is especially prevelant in the stall matchup imo.
Also, why is Blissey ranked higher than Arceus? ._. Of course Normal-types are well-prepered for but Arceus still can choose its counters like no other. Also, ESpeed is offensive Support that is just second to none and a must on HO teams to check dangerous sweepers.
I have not used Rayquaza personally, but seeing how it can 2HKO even Mega-Audino and Alomomola with the Choice Band set, checks Primal Groudon and still has a decently strong ESpeed, it's no way C Rank below Meganium :o
I still don't think that Clamperl is the best mon in the meta. It does have very high offensive potential, but it's just outsped and severely damaged if not outright KOed by everything. It does have a decent Stall matchup but even then it hates status and Knock Off, so it can't really set up comfortably against a well-build team. People should really use SubSmash, it's just so much better at anything but hitting Kyogre. Imo it's S based on this set alone, but I'd put it in second ;)
Also, Bronzong does ~something~, so it should at least be included in some form. It checks a ton of stuff but is really passive so it would probably be fine somewhere at the bottom.
Done, but in B for now.
Done, completely true.
Blissey is the strongest special wall in the metagame, while Arceus is just yet another normal type. Still, it definitally does have the movepool+espeed, so It probably does deserve to rise.
Rayquaza doesn't ko mega audino or physdef alomomola:
252 Atk Choice Band Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 171-202 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 235-277 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
This seems to be a theme, so I clarified it in my post- The position in the ranking is not viability, its alphabetical. The only differences implied are between ranks (ie c+>c).
Done
marowak is def deserving of its current rank, its basically got groudon level bulk, which is still good bulk in this meta, while having an offensive stat that even some of the best mons in the tier covet. with the additional bulk, its versatility easily is bolstered now that its not just some "Frail, slow nuke" as now it can take on the roll of a REALLY hard hitting tank, or a super powerful wallbreaker or even a mix of both. its also got some insane coverage and options to choose from. double edge(due to rock head) EQ, bonemerang, stone edge, fire punch, knock off, stealth rock, swords dance. its VERY versatile, especially in this meta, since both offense and stall have a hard time tanking its hits and KOing back.
and whats this about bonemerang being its only strong attack? all of maro's attacks are
100 base power at the least. and 120 doubled is far from "laughable".
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 178-210 (37.6 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
that is marowak almost 2hkoing the bulkiest monster in the tier. and before you say it doesnt 2hko:
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 122-144 (25.7 - 30.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
groudon doesn't even come close without its STAB
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg in Harsh Sunshine: 204-242 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
and doesnt manage it WITH stab fire punch if it still has leftovers.
252 Atk Choice Band Archeops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 236-278 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 70.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
stab choice banded archeops only barely manages to 2hko avalugg. choice banded stab stone edge off 170 attack. 70.3% chance to 2hko a ice type
actually...speaking about avalugg...why is it B rank? its typing is def not a "Hindrance" now that some of the biggest offensive behemoths are shrugged off by this monster tank. not to mention that hazard removal is pretty coveted, and avalugg is far from a "sitting duck" with 157 attack with a 120 base power nuke button lol. i get its specially weak, but lets be serious here, avalugg is the physical version of blissey...but with an offensive backbone and actual solid special bulk. at least give it A-, seriously, i encorage people to use it. its been a absolute god on my stall teams. and i dont think quags removal hits it THAT badly. i mean, its better then alomomola ngl...
anyways, back on point, time to show some bulky flying types/levitator/resists and how reliable they are now that ive shown that ava is a absoloute monster:
-1 252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Stone Edge vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Mega Salamence: 240-284 (68.3 - 80.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Marowak: 318-375 (78.7 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO ow but you win in the end even if you lose the 50/50.
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 180-212 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gogoat: 240-284 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(this set should never exist, but for sake of calc)
4 Atk Gogoat Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Marowak: 152-182 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 262-310 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+3 0 SpA Cresselia Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Marowak: 118-141 (29.2 - 34.9%) -- 11.1% chance to 3HKO (oops forgot to increase spc attack..but still you get my point)
of course, maro doesnt beat ALL of these 100% of the time ezpz...but that's still not "decent defense" having a "easy time" these are defensive ground immune/resisting titans being almost 2hkoed by common maro coverage.
The marowak points are pretty much my thoughts exactly.
As for Avalugg, however, i cant really agree. Its typing is still a major hindrance (rock weak spinner+sturdy gogogo), and it loses to the three S rank mons and 3 of the 5 a+ rank mons. Furthermore, it has all of 1 resistance, and to a very rare type at that.
The reason it isn't ranked higher is that physical attacker are all either mediocre or deal very heavy damage to it, and special attacking is the rule of the meta.
There's a lack of fighting types in the rankings, so I'd like to nominate Hariyama for B-/C.
Hariyama has great 174/90 bulk when paired up with AV making it a good special sponge, with decent 150 offenses and a good offensive movepool, with priority & K-off. It separates itself from other fighting types with fake out and a great ability in thick fat, granting it two free resistances. However, It finds itself struggling against the majority of high ranked pokemon, forcing it to run coverage to reliably hit threats such as Xerneas & Mega-dino. It also faces competition from Blissey as a special wall as it has leftovers, reliable recovery, and has support moves to help its team. Nevertheless, Hariyama can be used on bulky-offense teams as a special wall with offensive presence & a good user of fake out.
However, It's bad points might severely weigh it down enough to not be ranked, or it might be outclassed by something I missed.
Nice rankings Quantum. Brings some life to this thread again. But i think it needs a bit off tweaking and additions :)
Rampardos for one is an amazing wallbreaker/sweeper/revenge killer depending on it's set and can smash every counter with the right moves. It's bulk is quite decent too. Really don't get how it's not on the list. It should be high A at least.
Leavanny deserves to be in there maybe at B because of the fact that entire teams can be based on Sticky Web, I've used one in the ladder and I've gone 45-5, reasonable proof that Leavanny has a definite niche.
NFEs that are better than their evolved counterparts like Kadabra- a pretty good revenge killer, Haunter, Servine and Machoke all deserve a place in about B-.
Volbeat with prankster Baton pass, tail glow, encore and t-wave has great utility in preventing set-up, crippling sweepers and creating chances to sweep.B+
Will add more when i think of them.
Some rankings that i think are a bit high -
Mega Audino at A+
MAudino is a good mon but A+? It usually turns into set up bait for physical sweepers like Ursaring, mons like Rampardos can 2ko with iron head and non-cm variants are way too passive.
Ho oh at A+ seems to be high as well. Mons have just got bulkier and there are even better rock setters than before. Not to mention the presence of powerful physical attackers. A- instead?
I don't see what Mewtwo does that other powerful special attackers don't, Kadabra for instance has similar speed and sp attack but a way better ability.
