Figuring out Underused?

[RBG]

I'd prefer that the UU test starts as soon as the new January OU list is issued, which should happen as soon as Doug releases December's stats. I'm saying this since Doug's stats might not be released on January 1st.

Aggreed, thats what the current plan is.

 

[RBG]

There was only one bit that confused me. OU is done through usage statistics, so if a new Pokemon drops out of OU will it go into UU for "testing" or will it go straight into BL, secondly what would happen if a UU Pokemon was elevated to OU, and it then got relegated back down, would it go back into UU or BL?

My first question is what would happen in these two instances, and my second question is would there be any reason to treat these cases differently. Should we assume that already OU Pokemon won't fit into UU and should immediately go to BL, whereas one that was already in UU can go back down? As usage fluctuates a bit it would make sense to treat each case the same, but I guess I'm just a little confused on this one.

Sorry if I missed this in the PR thread I didn't see it there, but then again I do make mistakes.

Thanks =D

That is a good question. Currently, I feel that the best method of dealing with this is to just move the Pokemon to BL. I feel that it is easier to just move the previously OU pokemon to BL, rather than allowing them in the test. My main reason for this is that the Pokemon that fall out of OU are the Pokemon more likely to bounce out of BL/UU back to OU. If a strong enough argument can be made to have them dropped into UU for the test (in March), as well as an efficient way to deal with it, then I will have no problem.

Hi RB Golbat! :)

I was just wondering, do you have any plans to prevent the community banning Pokemon that don't actually need to be banned when we begin constructing the UU tier?

Basically, I understand that we want as few Pokemon to be put in BL as possible. If we're extremely lucky, we may have a relatively balanced metagame without having to ban a single Pokemon (or perhaps, with banning only one or two Pokemon). I know that this is very unlikely, but if it did happen, I fear that people will carry on with the bannings, when they're not actually needed, and we'll have dozens of interesting Pokemon that can't shine in any particular metagame, just like we have at the moment.

It's just that most people I talk to seem to be under the presumption that we're banning 20-30 Pokemon, when ideally, we won't have to ban a single Pokemon.

I know it's unlikely that less than 5 Pokemon will be needed to go to BL, but if it did happen, I think a lot of people would have a hard time getting to grips with it, and will still cry out for more bans when we won't need them. Do you have any way to get around this problem, or do you have a mathematical model to tell us when we've got a balanced UU (e.g. when there are 50 "OU" UUs, and no obvious centralizing Pokemon, we don't need to ban anything else).

To sum up, how will you determine when we stop bannings, as it seems that many members here are ready to ban 30 Pokemon in February and that is not supposed to happen? I just want to help ensure that the test goes right, and that those members who don't entirely understand what the aim of the test is don't ruin it for everyone.

Thanks in advance. :)

I agree, that is a problem that will most likely exist. This is even more amplified by the fact that there really is no definition for "Centralizing". The best we can do is hope that people will use the same judgment they used in the suspect tests voting and that unnecessary bans do not happen.

 

[obi]

I would rather put the previously OU Pokemon in UU and only stick it in BL if you have a reason. The whole basis of this test is that Pokemon are allowed until proven worthy of being banned, not the reverse.

 

[RBG]

Actually, I was kind of split on that issue, but now that I think about it more, the postives for doing that do outweigh the negatives.

Also, is there anyone who is against lengthening the first part of the test to 2.5 months? Like was mentioned early, this isn't really like the DP --> Pt transition, and lots of new things will be added and lots of strategies tested. I feel this is more comparable to early DP, and therefore, we should have a longer testing period for the first round.

 

[Tleilax]

Are we going to be testing Wynaut and Phione as well? Wynaut I can see not being allowed for being a lesser Wobbuffet, whom very few have positive feelings for, but with Manaphy being a future suspect perhaps Phione may be tested in the UU environment and we can come to an educated position regarding it's tiering.

Also, is there anyone who is against lengthening the first part of the test to 2.5 months? Like was mentioned early, this isn't really like the DP --> Pt transition, and lots of new things will be added and lots of strategies tested. I feel this is more comparable to early DP, and therefore, we should have a longer testing period for the first round.

I always thought a longer test was a given. This is the complete restructuring of a tier, and it will be in a state of constant flux. A longer test is necessary to allow more time for the many variables to reveal themselves, and allow some initial hype to wear down as well. I get the strong feeling that many bans will be called for very quickly.

 

[Imran]

I vote yes for Phione, there's never been any doubt as to it's current tier status in the current Underused tier, so I don't see why when we add in more powerful Pokemon it will suddenly become broken. Odds on it will become more underwhelming, so I think it should get a fair shot just like everything else.

As for Wynaut, I really don't know if it has the defensive stats to be pulling off six Tickles like Wobbuffet did, I mean 190 / 58 / 58 is clearly different to 95 / 48 / 48. It also has a max Speed of 159, so it won't be hard for a lot of walls (who are prime targets for it) to invest the nessecary Speed to avoid being Encored into the wrong thing, I can't see it coming around and encoring more than once against an intelligant player. I think that it should undergo testing with everything else. I am not sure why we have it banned from OU at the moment, but I think it is fair enough to give it a shot, it is noticably "worse" than Wobbuffet. This test is all about including more Pokemon in the game after all. Small edit: This shouldn't be a hard one, as there is only 1 "real" set that it can use, so we can test it in the first week or so, and can compare it to what Wobbuffet was like in OU and then make what will hopefully be a relativly simple descision.

As for increasing the time limit, I think that's an excellent idea, and Tleilax pretty much summed up my thoughts.

 

[RBG]

Phione isn't an NFE, it is currently UU so it will be tested

Wynaut is something that I am ready to test, becuase i dont think it will be force people think in this new meatgame

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

How soon will the changes be implemented? The new current BL/UU list is now in effect, meaning that the test should get underway soon. I'm looking forward to this new metagame.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I plan to put in the new UU tier with the next server update, which will hopefully be in the next day or two. I have a few other server features that I am trying to complete right now. I'd like to do it all in the same release. But, the plan is to do this sooner, rather than later.

 

[X-Act]

Wynaut should be tested, yes. I'll bet you it won't even be used that much in this new UU.

 

[TVboyCanti]

Edit: After reading SDS's post I realize that I was mistaking the term Uber for BL and overreacted a bit because of that. However, I still feel that there is no harm in testing Wynaut in both UU and OU simultaneously. But because I understand the logic for wanting to test Wynaut in OU before letting it down into UU, I will concede my position on this issue.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

There's a difference between "Has the potential to be Uber" and "Has the potential to be BL", and that's what you're missing. Presumably, the process will go like this.

Wynaut becomes a Suspect
Wynaut is voted Not Banned
Wynaut has jack shit usage in OU and becomes UU
Wynaut becomes a BL Suspect
Wynaut is voted on.

I just got done arguing this with Chris, and I suspect that its removal has nothing to do with the UU test, only that it's potentially broken in any metagame (Thus why it is Uber and not BL).