Metagame Flipped

temp

legacy
is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Driver Alumnus
dropping a few sets; I played a few games with these and had some success. click the sprites for potential sets

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108/72/90/129/90/91

Cobalion comes in with 108/90/90 bulk and a massive 129 special attack stat. Cobalion's typing is solid defensively and offensively too, so there's a lot of versatility with this Pokemon.

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40/55/55/130/140/115

Rhyperior has solid natural special defense and really solid speed. With 130 special attack and some great special coverage, Rhyperior is a solid special breaker. It can even afford to run Rock Polish on sets to be a cleaner late-game.

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78/77/50/77/56/85

Diggersby now has 77 base attack on top of Huge Power, so it can hit harder than it already did. Scarf sets are likely the best, but I imagine that Choice Band and SD 3 Attacks can make great use of Quick Attack to pick off frailer Pokemon.
 
What ? I'm really surprised by that ban, especially about the reasoning. "Improving priority moves" to balance a meta seems pretty odd to me. Sure, I didn't play a lot of games, but metas super priority-oriented seems quite unhealthy.
Moreover, Snorlax doesn't hit that hard out of the box, and will have a hard time to set-up. Rhyperior doesn't learn any special set-up move, and 130 BS seems good but not broken to me. For Cloyster, I don't know, the only one I face didn't had time to set-up ; but it's a very specific mon, and if anything, I would rather suspect Cloyster itself than psychic terrain which could make it broken.
 
Interesting enough to see Psychic Terrain banned cuz it isn't mentioned anywhere in this forum before. Great decision though, anyways, here's some theorymons + some mons from above that I think is p great/slept on:
:ss/rhyperior:
Rhyperior @ Choice Specs/Choice Scarf
Ability: Solid Rock/Lightning Rod
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower/Fire Blast
- Focus Blast

While physically frail, it actually has a p nice special defense and solid SpA/Spe. It surprisingly has amazing special coverage, allowing it to hit most of the theory-special-walls mentioned above and scoring a nice OHKO on Snorlax. It can alternatively run Lightning Rod which further boosts its Special Attack.
252 SpA Choice Specs Rhyperior Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Snorlax: 362-426 (180 - 211.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Rhyperior Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Snorlax: 240-284 (119.4 - 141.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

:ss/cloyster:
Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shell Smash
- Ice Beam
- Surf/Hydro Pump
- idk

Cloyster @ Assault Vest
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump/Surf
- Ice Beam
- Ice Shard
- idk
Surprised it wasn't mentioned much. Shell Smash with a whooping 180 spA is extremely strong, even if it's unable to outspeed many Pokemon after the boost. It can even run a Bulky Choice Specs/Assault Vest set considering it still retained a 70/85/95 bulk. edit: omg it has 0 special moves

:ss/araquanid:
Again, only mentioned once or twice before. Has 132 Attack AND Water Bubble, and normally it's already strong with 70 Attack. Underspeeds the base 70 crowd tho, but it has a niche of being able to set webs on its own. idk about setting webs/its set but it has basically the highest Attack in the meta. (and still somehow weaker than a normal vish-eous rend.)

:ss/hitmontop:
Hitmontop @ Leftovers?
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Mach Punch
- Rapid Spin
- Sucker Punch/Drain Punch

I'd say this is the strongest anti-offense mon out of the list in page 2, as most of the hyper-offensive mons are weak to Fighting, plus it gets Fake Out for breaking Sash/Sturdy, Rapid Spin to safely bring in your own glass cannons and Sucker Punch for more priority.

:ss/accelgor:
Accelgor @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Recover
- U-Turn
- Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Encore
- Yawn

Accelgor is fun with 145/100/70 bulk, reliable recovery, hazards and Yawn + U-Turn. Keeps momentum on your side and blanket check to physical breakers. Also always immune to hazards cuz Boots can't be knocked off. Neat

:ss/hawlucha:
Hawlucha @ Leftovers
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Roost
- U-Turn
- Defog
- Taunt/idk

idk bout Hawlucha, but 118/74/92 bulk with recovery, slow pivoting, Defog and not weak to rocks looks promising. Also has Limber cuz I think para spam would be p great in this meta.

:ss/jolteon: :ss/espeon:
Espeon/Jolteon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce/Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 idk
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Wish
- Protect
- Psychic Fangs/Volt Switch
- Toxic/Heal Bell

These two bois are great Wish Passers. You may think that Espeon is the obvious Superior here, but Jolteon has higher HP and slow pivoting, which I think is really important in such a glass cannon meta(safely bringing in breakers and chipping the opponent). both are great team support

uh that's all for my initial thoughts, some honorable mentions include Kyurem, Togekiss, Goodra, Primarina, Mimikyu, Sylveon and all those paper nukes. I also think that para spam/Trick Room would be really good as the former provides great speed control, while the latter makes all the Scarfers cry. Let me know if you have any suggestions/comments on the sets!

oh also, rip aegislash
 
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Hi guys :), today I will make some predictions for the Viability Ranking
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in A+
Stats: 60/130/110/65/65/95
At first I thought it was a terrible gimmick, but then I decided to try it and I realized that it is an excellent glass cannon, although it does not have such good coverage, Dig is an option that I have been testing a little and Ground + Fairy is a great double stab , Double-Edge / Facade or Body Slam / Quick Attack / Dig is more than enough to beat the vast majority of offensive builds and even with the right support it can beat defensive builds, is very nice mon and even when the island of armor drops, it will still have an interesting niche in the metagame, A+ rank is very adecuate for this, is some versatile too, with two screens + two attacks, Band or Pixie Plate Standard set, is a monster.

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in A+
Stats: 110/95/130/60/65/65
Espeon is an excellent utility mon, he has quite a few useful movepool like Wish, Reflect, Light Screen, Yawn, Heal Bell and Morning Sun. Now that the glass cannons are really good and common, Espeon has taken a very solid place in the metagame as a support for the teams and it is also a great wall and Magic Bounce makes him immune to Taunt and altered states, I think It could be a first level wall and a great support and a really good wishpasser, it should definitely be A+.

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in A
Stats: 80/115/120/95/50/85
Togekiss suffers a lot of competition with Sylveon who has Ground + Fairy coverage, Play Roughs does not fail at all times and is faster, Togekiss has very useful niches, Hustle + Extreme Speed + Aerial Ace is a not inconsiderable niche and has better bulk Generally, it also has certain coverage moves like Thunder Wave and direct recovery with Roost, although Sylveon is a bit better, Togekiss on A or A- would be fine, is a good sweeper, but depends much on luck.

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in A+
Stats: 30/65/55/200/85/75
Steelix is a cool sweeper that can really equip a lot of items like Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Life Orb or Expert Belt and can carry any of its abilities except Rock Head, Sheer Force + some enhancer item just hits very powerful and Sturdy is also great for endure moves more safely, I think it's really versatile and could be A+

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in S
Stats: 40/55/55/130/140/115
Rhyperior has solid natural special defense and really solid speed. With 130 special attack and some great special coverage, Rhyperior is a solid special breaker. It can even afford to run Rock Polish on sets to be a cleaner late-game.
It is a very good brief explanation of what Rhyperior is, it is great and somewhat versatile, just like Steelix can carry Scarf, Specs or Life Orb and it has two pretty good abilities, Solid Rock on the one hand reduces damage from super-affective movements, which makes it a little more durable and Lightining Rod on the other hand if you make a good prediction, it can be DEVASTATING in this metagame, is really good and S rank for Rhyperior because is the best Flipped mon without a doubt and is banworthy in the future.

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in B+
Stats: 65/130/60/110/65/95
Umbreon is a pretty good mixed attacker despite being weak to common types, Sucker Punch + Dark Pulse is a combination to beat many walls of the metagame, Psychic is good enough to beat the fight types and also lacks cover and is under pressure for many threats, but it is a very decent Sucker Punch user and is a niche sweeper, B+ is good

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in A
Stats: 81/125/100/79/60/95
Coil + Recover + 2 Attacks is a pretty good set, its typing is quite valuable for many teams and it is versatile because it can carry the mentioned Coil set, Dragon Dance, a more defensive set with Hypnosis + Coil and Choice Band Milotic is not so bad, she has a pretty good movepool like Dragon Dance, Iron Head, Waterfall, Aqua Tail, Coil, Recover and Dragon Tail are great moves, A rank is a good rank for her.

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in A or even A+
Stats: 78/77/50/77/56/85
Diggersby is a top notch threat, CB Diggersby easily sweeps all non-ghost monsters with Quick Attack and can be paired with monsters like Sylveon and Togekiss to beat monsters like Dragapult and Umbreon who are troublesome. The SD set is great too, it hits a lot of the metagame really hard and under screens it can destroy, Diggersby is one of the best metagame sweepers and I wouldn't be surprised to see him banworthy alongside Sylveon and Rhyperior, A or A+ would be fine.

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in A
Stats: 60/116/126/74/74/80
Primarina is not far behind either, it is a pretty good physical sweeper with Aqua Jet, it hits hard with Aqua Jet + Torrent + Sash, it is basically a lead, it enters, kills or wears out one or two opposing Pokemon and then dies, there is not much more What to say, its role is quite basic but effective for HO, A rank for Primarina because it can weaken one or two pokemon without previous support, in HO Spikes it is where it works best.

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in A+
Stats: 30/110/65/65/110/160
It is very fast, a great glass cannon in many teams that hits the metagame hard, it is the fastest pokemon of the whole metagame and although it is weak to priority attacks like Quick Attack Sylveon and Diggersby or Extreme Speed Togekiss (which does not achieve always hit because Togekiss gets along with Hustle), but outside of this it is a really cool mon, the psychic ban arises was certainly not beneficial, but it is still a great option for teams with Screens.

I don't know if I can talk about this here, but I really needed to talk about this, cya bros
 
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What ? I'm really surprised by that ban, especially about the reasoning. "Improving priority moves" to balance a meta seems pretty odd to me. Sure, I didn't play a lot of games, but metas super priority-oriented seems quite unhealthy.
Moreover, Snorlax doesn't hit that hard out of the box, and will have a hard time to set-up. Rhyperior doesn't learn any special set-up move, and 130 BS seems good but not broken to me. For Cloyster, I don't know, the only one I face didn't had time to set-up ; but it's a very specific mon, and if anything, I would rather suspect Cloyster itself than psychic terrain which could make it broken.
Our main reasoning is as follows: there are a lot of strong, frail sweepers and breakers in Flipped that have a big weakness to priority. See Post #36 for how priority is helpful against a large swathe of Pokemon which otherwise have unrivaled Speed tiers and terrific offenses. Psychic Terrain nullified this crucial weakness of these Pokemon without requiring much set-up, almost exclusively through running Indeedee with Psychic Surge. By simply switching in a Pokemon, you could remove a primary weakness of your best breakers/sweepers and let them run loose with unmatched speed and/or power. Indeedee itself has a lot of excellent support moves it can use to further enable its teammates.

More specifically, we felt that banning Psychic Terrain was needed to properly assess which Pokemon are unhealthy for the tier and which aren't. Pokemon like Snorlax, Steelix, Rhyperior, Avalugg, Torkoal, and Coalossal seem a lot stronger when one of their best counterplay options is completely unavailable. Removing the Terrain itself requires another terrain setter or use of Defog, which can be blocked. With PT removed, it's easier to tell which of these aforementioned Pokemon are too powerful and which fit well in the metagame.

I have worried about priority and fast sweepers both being too powerful and creating a "broken fixes broken" situation. Right now it is hard to tell with the metagame being so recent. It is entirely possible that certain priority users are broken along with certain fast attackers as well. Psychic Terrain got in the way of this process by pushing the advantage towards the fast Pokemon.

I would not be opposed to a Psychic Terrain re-implementation suspect further down the line once we settle on more manageable Speed tiers and Power levels. Should the metagame slow down and become much less offensive, I don't see Psychic terrain being nearly as much of an issue. Furthermore, if there's sufficient support for the re-introduction of Psychic Terrain as things are now, reverting our decision is certainly an option.

Once again, we appreciate feedback on our decisions and want to see what players feel is too powerful or uncompetitive. Having only three people and a small communicating playerbase makes it harder for us to make changes people want.

Just as an aside, I have developed a "watch-list" on Pokemon which I feel are extremely strong ATM and all of them are either the fast sweepers/breakers or the priority users (some both!). Once I get more data, experience, and user input, I'll put it forward.

EDIT: shoutouts DrPumpkinz for making me realize that Psychic Terrain was even stronger than I mentioned. 18-hour brain is not doing me any favors.
 
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More specifically, we felt that banning Psychic Terrain was needed to properly assess which Pokemon are unhealthy for the tier and which aren't. Pokemon like Snorlax, Steelix, Rhyperior, Avalugg, Torkoal, and Coalossal seem a lot stronger when one of their best counterplay options is completely unavailable outside of the few airborne Pokemon that can use strong, reliable priority, and this . Removing the Terrain itself requires another terrain setter or use of Defog, which can be blocked. With PT removed, it's easier to tell which of these aforementioned Pokemon are too powerful and which fit well in the metagame.
Just a note: it doesn't matter if the priority user is airborne. Psychic Terrain doesn't prevent the use of priority moves, but rather protects against them. So all that matters is whether or not the target is grounded.
 
snhowshner beat me to what I had to say, but that part of my post was already finished so I'll post it anyway.
What ? I'm really surprised by that ban, especially about the reasoning. "Improving priority moves" to balance a meta seems pretty odd to me. Sure, I didn't play a lot of games, but metas super priority-oriented seems quite unhealthy.
Moreover, Snorlax doesn't hit that hard out of the box, and will have a hard time to set-up. Rhyperior doesn't learn any special set-up move, and 130 BS seems good but not broken to me. For Cloyster, I don't know, the only one I face didn't had time to set-up ; but it's a very specific mon, and if anything, I would rather suspect Cloyster itself than psychic terrain which could make it broken.
The problem is that Psychic Terrain enables much more than just Snorlax, Rhyperior, and Cloyster. They are notable examples, but there are many more fast, powerful threats. Consider Coalossal, Hippowdon, and Avalugg, who naturally outspeed most of the meta, or Steelix, Torkoal, Araquanid, Goodra, and the Galar fossils, who can either setup or use a scarf to outpace most unboosted opponents. It's hard to counter this wide range of opponents, and Psychic Terrain puts them over the edge. We felt that these pokemon have no business getting one of their main weaknesses removed essentially for free. If it turns out that priority users have a field day with this ban, to the point of precluding many of the above pokemon, then we will reassess the situation, perhaps with a suspect test. But I expect that these threats will continue to see frequent use despite the ban.

Shame the Isle of Armor mons will be missing this by a month, flipped Azumarill with 50/80/60/80/50/100 stats backed up by Huge Power would be an absolute monster.
Azumarill will certainly be killer when it arrives, but while I look forward to using it, Volcarona, and even Aurorus, I'm really excited that we get a chance to play the tier before it becomes inundated with legendaries. We'll have another chance to play with these guys eventually. The before-after comparison will be really interesting.

Here are my thoughts on a couple mons.
:Jolteon:Jolteon seems underwhelming so far. I had high hopes that it would be an amazing Wish-passer, enabling cool things like Persian-A, Salazzle, and Liepard, but alas, it can't do anything to ground types, giving a free switch-in to beasts like Steelix and Rhyperior, meaning that you are afraid to play it for most of the match.
:Roserade:I haven't made a team that does a great job at utilizing it yet, but Roserade seems promising. 90/105/125/65/70/60 makes it quite bulky on the physical side, and it has the movepool to make use of it. Synthesis, Toxic Spikes, Spikes, Aromatherapy, Leech Seed are all nice to have, and with 105 attack, it is a far less passive spiker than Accelgor. Natural Cure means it doesn't get that attack permanently ruined by burns. Perhaps most importantly, it may be one of the best counters to Sylveon and Primarina. Could be a good partner to Hydreigon.
:Excadrill: Excadrill is better than I expected, though still not top tier. Rapid Spin + Stealth Rock is great consolidation for offensive teams, and with its great speed and special defense, I've found it saving me from opposing Avalugg more than once. Its low attack doesn't let it kill much else, but it's certainly something.
:Cobalion:Lots of other people have already mentioned it, so all I'll say is that I've really been enjoying Cobalion as an offensive Stealth Rocks lead. I like Thunder Wave over Focus Blast.
:Gourgeist:One of the best special attacks on something that's not made of paper. Grass/Ghost/Fire coverage is nice, and it has Trick to plant its Specs on a wall. Can pick between two different size statlines to be either a wall-breaker or a set-up sweeper with Nasty Plot. Also a good offensive spin blocker and a switch-in to choice locked Snorlax.
 
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anaconja

DUHH PUPLE FOG!!!DUHH BURPLE FROG???PURPLE FROG!!!
is a Tiering Contributor
Being offense-oriented is kind of an inherent part of this meta - there are few mons who have high stats in Attack, Special Attack, and Speed (and the ones who do usually don't have reliable recovery or even good defensive/utility moves), and a lot of mons who have high stats in HP and a defensive stat. IMO the most centralizing mons that may have to go are:

:steelix: I don't think I have to explain this one. 200 Special Attack is bonkers and with Sheer Force + Life Orb it at the very least 2HKOs the entirety of the meta. Sturdy + HDB is also an option but the power drop is pretty noticeable. If it gets in free, nothing can safely switch in:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Steelix Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragapult: 263-309 (53.8 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

:diggersby: Also self-explanatory. With Choice Band you OHKO basically everything as long as you don't hit a resist. The only mons that can kind of switch into it is Dragapult (252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dragapult: 273-322 (55.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and Accelgor (252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Accelgor: 232-274 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO), but that's about it.

:araquanid: Pretty slow but if you force a switch you kill something unless it's Dragapult.

I think because of these three, the meta has more or less centered around Focus Sash users, Sturdy mons (Steelix, Avalugg), priority users (Sylveon, Hitmontop), and revenge killers (Snorlax, Scarf Rhyperior?). There are a couple other archetypes, namely rain and TR, which are fairly viable but usually also have to use one of these three roles to "get around" the Steelix-Diggersby-Araquanid trifecta. I'd be glad to see these three banned (you could ban Huge Power instead of Diggersby ig) to try to shift the meta away from hyper-offensive hell.

Bans aside, some cool mons/sets I've played with are:
:slurpuff: People are using Ribombee for some reason but I think this mon is better at setting webs because of Unburden Sash and Magic Coat. At +2 it outspeeds everything up to stuff like Scarf Rhyperior and Endeavors them so that's pretty cool.
:ferrothorn: Another good suicide lead, it has the perfect tools: Stealth Rock + Spikes, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, Steel Beam, and Explosion. It can even break some sashes with Iron Barbs. Its only weakness is its low speed.
:gourgeist-super: Pretty good spinblocker with Yache Berry to take a hit from Avalugg and Cloyster, and a powerful special attacker with Nasty Plot.
:snorlax: Surprisingly, Scarf Snorlax has the most consistency for me. 110 Attack is good enough to revenge kill most breakers (which are usually frail) and with the extra speed it can stop setup sweepers in their tracks. Speed tying Ditto is pretty cool too.
:runerigus: Very powerful in TR with 145 Special Attack and Nasty Plot. It's really frail, though, so sometimes it can have trouble setting up.
 

Darth

Formerly Seraphus
Psychic terrain ban is both redundant and odd; but the former takes precedence.
Most Psychic terrain teams lost because they can't use priority themselves (and usually don't carry it for that reason) and can't break out of a pinch once the shell smash brigade opens its mouth.
So yay? I guess.

Shell Smash is honestly a much bigger issue.
Torkoal, Cloyster, Turtonator, all these mons that are usually slow even after a shell smash (yes I included cloyster) are now fast monsters that outspeed the entire tier bar Snorlax w/ scarf. That is added to the fact they hit with 140, 180, and 135 spa respectively, with Torkoal setting drought for itself, Turtonator in general being a bit bulkier than torkoal (not a lot but enough) and cloyster having 180 spa why do you need more info than that?

It's not like anything walls them, at all.
 
Psychic terrain ban is both redundant and odd; but the former takes precedence.
Most Psychic terrain teams lost because they can't use priority themselves (and usually don't carry it for that reason) and can't break out of a pinch once the shell smash brigade opens its mouth.
So yay? I guess.

Shell Smash is honestly a much bigger issue.
Torkoal, Cloyster, Turtonator, all these mons that are usually slow even after a shell smash (yes I included cloyster) are now fast monsters that outspeed the entire tier bar Snorlax w/ scarf. That is added to the fact they hit with 140, 180, and 135 spa respectively, with Torkoal setting drought for itself, Turtonator in general being a bit bulkier than torkoal (not a lot but enough) and cloyster having 180 spa why do you need more info than that?

It's not like anything walls them, at all.
After boosting, 252 Timid Torkoal is still outsped by any scarfer with 350 Speed or more. So that includes Snorlax, but also Rhyperior and Coalossal, both of which can absolutely crush Torkoal with their STAB and/or coverage options. Turtonator and Cloyster are even slower and thus more susceptible to a larger amount of Pokemon.

Some calculations:

+2 252+ SpA Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hydreigon in Sun: 297-349 (74.2 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragapult in Sun: 270-318 (55.3 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Those are two of the bulkiest Pokemon we have right now, and they get crushed. Of course, this requires a max BP Eruption, which can be difficult to maintain. Fire Blast/Overheat still do great damage but have their own downsides such as accuracy or stat drops.

Either way, Torkoal is definitely nigh-impossible to wall, and can afford to invest heavily in Speed while not losing much of its destructive power. Similar can be said for Turtonator, whose STAB combination is extremely potent in this metagame. Cloyster is still really slow so I don't see it as grossly powerful as the other two are, but it also has base 180 Special Attack and can afford to run other sets due to its respectable stat spread.

I didn't even mention Blastoise, our fastest Shell Smash user and a very good one at that thanks to ample coverage and the ability to run physical, special, or even mixed sets. Also can run priority in Aqua Jet to beat some of its would-be checks.

Shell Smash is definitely something we've been concerned with. The smaller roster of defensive answers and the dramatically increased offensive stats of these Pokemon makes them hard to beat without using very fast Pokemon or strong priority attacks.
 
you would think shuckle would benefit from this but 5 / 230 / 10 / 230 / 20 but now the poor guy can't even get a single attack of without dieing.
 
Idk if anyone's mentioned this but:

:darmanitan:/:darmanitan-zen:
Darmanitan @ Salac Berry
Ability: Zen Mode
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Belly Drum
- Fire Punch
- Zen Headbutt

Zen-Darm stats: 95/105/140/105/30/105

Zen-Darm is finally usable (kinda)! While you'd need to rely on a switch out or a stall mon to set up, it can potentially be a strong set up sweeper. However, you have to be wary of Iron Barbs/Rocky Helmet and priority since you're at such low HP after Stealth Rocks/Substitute/Belly Drum. Still underspeeds Scarf Rhyp and Snorlax :(
 
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Idk if anyone's mentioned this but:

:darmanitan:/:darmanitan-zen:
Darmanitan @ Salac Berry
Ability: Zen Mode
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Belly Drum
- Fire Punch
- Zen Headbutt

Zen-Darm stats: 55/105/140/105/30/105

Zen-Darm is finally usable (kinda)! While you'd need to rely on a switch out or a stall mon to set up, it can potentially be a strong set up sweeper. However, you have to be wary of Iron Barbs/Rocky Helmet since you're at such low HP after Stealth Rocks/Substitute/Belly Drum. Still underspeeds Scarf Rhyp and Snorlax :(
HP isn't affected by form changes, so Zen Darm's actual base stats are 95/105/140/105/30/105. You're also probably able to set up on a few special attackers, as you start out as regular Darm whose stats are 95/55/30/55/140/105. Even uninvested, that's some impressive special bulk.
 
After observing discussion and playing a lot of games since the first day, I feel pretty confident on what things are currently are unhealthy or could be in the future for the Flipped metagame. If anybody has anything to add/critique it would help solidify my statements and opinions on the current state of Flipped.

:cloyster: :blastoise: :torkoal: :turtonator:Shell Smash has been brought up before both in our council discussion and here. With the high defensive stats of your typical Shell Smash user turned into incredible offenses, one boost is often enough to cleave through teams. This one moves feels like the primary reason Pokemon like Cloyster or Torkoal are so powerful, since their Speed stats aren't terribly good unless boosted, and their ability to break is severely cut down as well. General consensus seems to be that this, or the users, need to go first.

:sylveon:Sylveon is something I've used a lot and seen a lot. Double Edge, Body Slam, and boosted Facade are all extremely powerful, and Priority Pixilate Quick Attack hits extremely hard. Although it has a barren physical movepool, I feel like the general lack of strong Fairy-resists viable right now make it easy to go full-STAB, and it can harass the few Pokemon which can switch into it with Toxic or Yawn. Sylveon might be good solely as a result of how offensive the Metagame is, since there are some very strong answers to it (Arcanine immediately comes to mind), so I'd be more keen on looking into it later rather than now, but it's definitely established itself as one of the most dangerous Pokemon around.

:steelix:Steelix is a weird combination of linear but versatile. It's low Special coverage makes its moveset predictable, but having 200 Base Special Attack and powerful abilities in Sheer Force and Sturdy doesn't make it any easier to handle. It's duties are reserved towards fast special offense, but it can approach this in a multitude of ways, with Life Orb, Specs, Scarf, and Autotomize/Rock Polish all very powerful.

:snorlax:Snorlax is leagues ahead of any fast Pokemon in the metagame. It's Speed Tier is very hard to beat and it comes packing with great offensive potential. Band is immediately threatening, but one wrong move and you can find yourself facing a +6 Snorlax that you have little hope for revenge killing depending on team composition or current gamestate.

:rhyperior:Rhyperior is phenomenal. It's got amazing Special Attack and coverage, a great Speed stat, and a variety of sets it can run. I've fell in love with Scarf. It beats out so much of the Metagame, including a lot of otherwise game-ending sweepers like Torkoal and Rock Polish Modest Steelix, and can easily plow through weakened teams, though this is by no means it's only option. Pokeseba was definitely onto something with their S-Rank nomination, though I'm not in total agreement.

:diggersby:Diggersby is extremely good and I only see it getting better moving forward. It's STAB combination is brutal combined with Quick Attack, Knock Off, U-Turn, and Swords Dance. I haven't seen it too much but there's been a lot of discussion.

A few other things which I think are really good but have some glaring issues:

:avalugg:Avalugg is fast, has an insane Special attack stat, and a great combination of Sturdy + Rapid Spin + Heavy Duty Boots, allowing it to switch in and potentially remove hazards while setting itself up in one move, and maintaining Sturdy in the process, so it can take at least one hit. However, it is one of the frailest Pokemon in the metagame by far, and it's easily exploited by bulky Water and Steel types due to limited coverage options. It has the looks of an overbearing Pokemon but I can't say it feels like one.

:goodra:Goodra's combination of bulk, speed, raw power, and sizable movepool is pretty ridiculous, but it suffers a lot from requiring Outrage to truly shine. Once it uses Outrage, it's easy for a Fairy or some Steels to come in and wreck havoc in response. Without a Fairy it's a lot harder, but being unable to switch while locked into Outrage still leaves it open to counterplay. I've heard some things about Goodra but, while really good, I see it as pretty tame compared to the other Pokemon I've mention. Really curious about people's thoughts on Goodra in Flipped.

:araquanid::ribombee::galvantula:Sticky Web is pretty powerful and annoying to fight against with all the strong Pokemon running around, but that might be it: the metagame is currently really favorable towards it, and a shift towards more balanced play could do a lot. I haven't lost to a lot of Webs teams but they are frustrating to combat, and very common from what I've seen, so I am, again, looking for other's thoughts on the matter.

:dracovish::dracozolt::arctovish::arctozolt: Fishious Rend/Bolt Beak and their subservient users have been problematic in both standard play and a lot of OMs. Of course that's not a reason for them to be immediately banworthy here, and I haven't seen any of these much on the ladder, but I am concerned about how simple and effective these are to use. They could easy have restrictive effects on Speed tiers and team-building down the line.

:togekiss:Togekiss had a good amount of hype around it but seems to have trailed off. Hustle makes it unreliable compared to other options which are of similar strength and without having to worry about missing their attacks. Could it be too much? Potentially, but I haven't seen it played much, nor a lot of discussion about it which views it as problematic.
 
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Wailord @ Focus Sash
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Toxic
- Dive
- Protect
- Substitute
I built this gimmick off the fact that Wailord is the only non scarfed mon (besides Wobbuffet who can't really do anything) that can outspeed Snorlax.
Basically it's a subtoxic set and when you run out of health to sub you use dive to buy more time, dive also works for beating some of the extreme glass cannons like shuckle. The main problem this set has is it's lack of recovery.
 
Very cool looking meta, excited for whats to come. I haven't really played yet but from what I've seen so far I think I support the psychic terrain ban. The counterplay seemsto it seems p basically unviable, limited to switching in opposing terrain setters, defogging, or setting your own manual terrain a la Hail Alolan Ninetales. The only other terrain setters currently in the game are Galarian Weezing, which may have role worth exploring but also has far more viable abilities, and pincurchin which is even worse than usual in this meta.

Personally I'm very interested in exploring some setup Iron Defense/ Body Press sets with the likes of Duraludon and Kommo-O (the special Clang set seems more immediately threatening but idk if the 75 base speed stat will be enough at +1)

Trick Room is a fave playstyle of mine and it looks initially like it could be viable but I've yet to fully explore, will def come back to this.

Also can we talk about bulky Mean Look Perish Trap Gengar???
110/75/130/60/65/60
the physical bulk + typing being immune to hitmontop's Mach Punch / Sylveon's stab looks kinda good on paper
 

Darth

Formerly Seraphus
I think there are a couple issues in the meta that make it less fun than it could be.

- Shell smash
- Hitmontop
- Sylveon
- Rhyperior

Shell Smash speaks for itself and I don't care to elaborate about it

Hitmontop at its core is a product of the meta. That being said, 110 atk technician 4x priority is c- and not something I like seeing in a meta. It doesn't keep anything in check and it doesn't cause less HO dominance, it just causes the game to be a mirror of hitmontops. It's boring.

Sylveon is in the same boat. It has no business hitting as hard as it does and pixilate only furthers this by making sylv's priority stab. Some of its KOs are downright dirty.

Rhyperior is the most verstatille of all special sweepers and he is downright broken because of it. Unlike Steelix and avalugg who have 1 or 2 viable sets, rhyperior can just run specs, LO, scarf, ebelt (meme), you can't predict it and its coverage will kill most of your team as a result.
 
Hitmontop at its core is a product of the meta. That being said, 110 atk technician 4x priority is c- and not something I like seeing in a meta. It doesn't keep anything in check and it doesn't cause less HO dominance, it just causes the game to be a mirror of hitmontops. It's boring.
You're definitely right about it being a "product of the meta," but still being a threat beyond that. Fake Out + Mach Punch from Top hits really hard and is effective against a lot of Pokemon. Brutal Swing or Sucker Punch can help it break past Ghost-types that would otherwise cause it trouble. Whenever I use Hitmontop it's always putting in work, consistently getting at least one KO per game and many more depending on the opponent's team.
 
Very interesting meta. Usually i don't like OM's but this one is really fun (yet). What makes it so different, is that mons don't get a ton off additions, but instead just changes with pros and cons.
Actually i enjoyed so much, that i accidentially laddered up to #2. Could have been #1 but i got haxed down 30 pts at once and then lost the pleasure. However, good job whoever thought of this meta. It's a really original idea.

Now, to give this post some value, here my thoughts of the meta.

Threats out of my head:

Sylveon- Fairy prio, Strong ATK and DEF but ass SpDef. You definitely need to prepare for this. What makes it even better, is the huge presence of dragon types.

Avalugg - Huge SpAtk, especially dangerous with scarf. But pretty frail. Wouldn't run rpolish or spin, because it gets revenged easily, but i've seen it every now and then.

Hitmontop - Seen not often, but always a threat. Strong Prio with Technician boost. Bulk also is solid enough. Mostly CB or LO with wish support.

Goodra - Simple Attacker. CB, Scarf, Lo or AV. But the moveset is always the same. Simple but effective.

Kyurem - Probably the biggest threat in the meta. Overall good stats, 130/130 Def which allow it to calmy set up DDs. Can easily decide matches if you don't pay attention.

Snorlax - Probably the most used monster in the meta. Mostly Belly drum, CB or LO. Personally i didn't have that much problems with it, it's atk is the same after all+ it's much more frail but it surely gets one or another kill.

Dragapult- 2 Sets, Either DD or some kind of wisp+hex. I don't think it's that good as it's usage might imply, but it tanks a powerful hit.

Kobalion - Rocks + Vswitch. Overall good Stats, both solid bulk and speed. One of the best leads.

Hydreigon- kyurem type situation, but with the alternative nasty plot. But not seen that often

Rhyperior - Not that popular, but an Avalugg kind of threat. Just with groundtype and little more bulk. Specs or LO.

Espeon - Physical wall, wish support. Not much to add.

Mew, Jirachi, Celebi - They are the same, but that doesn't make them less good.

Diggersby - The same, but stronger.

Kommo- o -Special set up sweeper. Can get very dangerous.

Ttar - Also kind of the same but trades ATK for Speed. I've seen various sets so far, DD, SpAttacker, AV

Now a few words about the mosters that i see a ton, but that never get shit done. Such as
Steelix, Cloyster and especially Shuckle. These mons are ass. And yes, even with trick room support. In best case you get a revenge kill, but you can also do that with an overall good mon that doesn't need support or dies in 1 hit. I've seen people playing boots on steelix just to get off one hit. Don't do that.

As a little Bonus, here is my team that i used (i used only this one):
Mandibuzz (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Weak Armor
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Air Slash
- U-turn
- Heat Wave

Excadrill @ Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Toxic

Celebi @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- U-turn
- Thunder Wave
- Psychic
- Recover

Torkoal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Drought
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power

Toxapex @ Choice Specs
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 12 HP / 252 SpA / 244 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam
- Knock Off

Mimikyu @ Lum Berry
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough
- Drain Punch
The gameplan is to chip Goodra and Dragapult, then sweep with torkoal.
Here a lose: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8flipped-1107869422-v1wslltclsu8xpk51hi38t1xwyvp9rgpw
One of my favourite matches: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8flipped-1107877114-8lnz7ulase0y1o22y3mj5fvoh1rw7aepw

In future, as this meta gets more popular, i definitely expect more stall and bulky offense. Also a rise of Steel types such as Corviknight and Duraludon. Hopefully the meta will stay enjoyable.
 
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Araquanid / 42/132/50/92/70/68
Mentionned once or twice before, but with 132 Attack, Water Bubble and Liquidation, this spider can OHKO many pokemons. Leech Life can also give a decent staying power and it can also set sticky web on its own.
 
Seeing as we don't really have the time for lengthy suspect-test periods (nor would some people, including myself, want to wait so long...), I'm issuing a last-minute call for any opinions on the following subjects the Flipped council has been looking at as banworthy material.

Shell Smash
We've seen a lot of this in-game and on the forums. There's not much else to say. Everyone knows what this does and how terrifying the best abusers are. Generally having one chance to set-up and the relative frailty of most Shell Smashers hold them back in some regards.

Sylveon
Extremely powerful Fairy-type attacker with access to priority, good Speed, decent Physical bulk, and a lot of ways it can work around checks, such as Facade to take advantage of status, or Toxic to incapacitate Pokemon looking to sit infront of it. There are pretty solid answers to it, however, including the fairly common Arcanine and some near-perfect counters like Salazzle and Roserade.

Anything else you want to mention is encouraged. These two have been what we discussed the most and have pretty strong feelings about
 

Ivy

resident enigma
is a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributor
Moderator
Shell Smash is more than welcome to go, but I don't really see what makes Sylveon intolerable. It has to run pretty one-dimensional band sets to get real damage output, and its only "coverage" comes in the aforementioned Toxic/Yawn and meme moves like Iron Tail, Double Kick, or Dig. Priority spam is definitely going to be in vogue when the psyterrain ban goes live with the next format hotpatch on the server, though, so it might be wise to wait a bit longer and see how it shapes up with both that and shell smash gone.
 
I've been playing for a few days now and honestly, right now don't think anything needs to be banned.

I don't usually have an enormous problem with any of the pokemon mentioned.

I think shell smash is deadly but can be defeated (now there's no psychic terrain at all).

Sylveon is scary but easily walled by the likes of an Arcanine and many other bulky mons.

If anything is scary rn more than anything is priority like Hitmontop. Powerful attack with technician and access to priority moves that can't be countered easily? That's crazy. But again, can still be countered by other priority and bulky mons.

I don't see anything that needs to be banned right now, maybe we should give it a few more days first.

On a side note, this Darmanitan that was mentioned before, is excellent. Easily countered, but can do some great damage at the start of a battle when opponents are more likely to use a status move like stealth rocks, here's some mad replays:

This first one, Darm wipes out the whole team 6-0:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8flipped-1108224216

A forfeit due to Darm's sheer presence:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8flipped-1108226348

A good battle where Darm kills almost half the team:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8flipped-1108228297

I LOVE this meta btw, great idea and I'm looking forward to exploring unnoticed viable mons!
 
Hi everyone. I'm going to chime in with my personal opinions on the potential bans.

To me there is no single mon that is clearly broken, but it's quite clear the meta leans on the offensive side. While every OM is different in whether it's biased toward stall, balance, or offense, I am of the opinion that a more balanced metagame is healthier, more dynamic, and ultimately more fun, and that it therefore in our interest to address something to take the edge off of hyper-offense.

To me, the simplest action that will have the broadest effect is to ban Shell Smash. This will mean that players will have to spend fewer teambuilding resources on preparation for multiple runaway threats (namely Torkoal, Cloyster, Turtonator, and Blastoise).

Once this pressure is taken off, I believe players will have greater flexibility to run counters to various key threats.

This includes Sylveon, our other potential ban at the moment. I personally believe it is far from broken. Yes, it is a very good, highly dangerous pokemon. But it can absolutely be countered. If you are having trouble dealing with Sylveon, I strongly recommend checking out these two mons:

:Arcanine:This pokemon is fantastic. With Heavy-Duty Boots, Fire Typing, Intimidate, and Will-o-Wisp, Arcanine is a phenomenal switch-in to the three most common priority users: Hitmontop, Togekiss, and in particular, Sylveon. This utility makes it valuable for both defensive and offensive teams. For its last slot (after Wisp, Morning Sun, and a fire attack) It can carry Extremespeed to pick off a weakened glass cannon, or Teleport to efficiently swap to a teammate.
:Roserade:I mentioned Roserade earlier and have used it much more since then, and it did not disappoint. Hard walls all Sylveon variants, and is one of the few who can withstand Fishious Rend or Water Bubble Liquidation. I preferred it as a spikes/t-spikes setter rather than a cleric, but both are great.

Once the Shell Smashers are gone, there will be less pressure from high-powered water, fire, and ice moves, freeing up players' ability to use mons such as these, making Sylveon less of an issue, and balancing the meta in general.

I say all this as an offense-player who managed to reach the top 5 on the ladder using a defensive team. So yes, defensive teams are certainly possible, and I think it will only get easier from here. This is the team I used, btw: https://pokepast.es/bfa1697f1349f913

Here are some other mons that feel deserve a closer look.
:Charizard:Another physically defensive fire mon with Will-o-Wisp, who would also hard counter Sylveon. Differentiates itself from Arcanine with Defog at the expense of Intimidate and special bulk.
:Gyarados:Looks to be practically the best Steelix counter you could ask for, if only it had recovery. With Wish support it could be a great phazer for defensive teams, and with Dragon Dance, offensive teams can clearly use it as well.
 
Got some (hopefully) hot takes here on some of the problematic elements so far. I feel strongly that Shell Smash as a whole is not broken, and we shouldn't be entertaining banning it as a whole. It would be a really weird decision, since there are very definitely non-broken Shell Smashers. I'll take a look at some individual Shell Smash users, but the move itself is not really a problem imo.

:cloyster:
Cloyster: It boasts a lot of power after a Shell Smash, that's for sure, but the fact that it has such unilateral coverage means that most water-types can stomach a hit from it. Cloyster's biggest limiting factor is that it's slow as hell. At +2 Speed it is still slower than any Scarfer with base 85 Speed or higher, meaning Scarf Diggersby or anything faster can revenge kill it. Non-scarfed Snorlax outspeeds it too. Not to mention priority, something all Shell Smash sweepers struggle with to an extent. Admittedly, it can feel a bit overwhelming if you're running a more defensively oriented team lacking bulky water-types, but offensively it is very easy to check with any good scarfer or priority mon. The fact that it is so matchup dependant really prevents it from being consistent enough to be considered broken at this stage, to me.

:blastoise:
Blastoise: Seems good, but faces a lot of the same problems as Cloyster does in that its coverage is fairly limited and reliant on its Water moves. Unlike Cloyster, it is fast enough to outspeed all scarfers bar Snorlax at +2, but it lacks a lot of power in comparison due to its lower offensive stats and single STAB. Keldeo, Virizion, Dracovish, Gyarados, Kingler, Dragapult, depending on set even Roserade or Araquanid are all mons that can take the hits and threaten back. It feels like a cop-out to mention priority, but when some of the most powerful mons in the metagame with little opportunity cost for running like Sylveon and Diggersby have very powerful priority, it goes a long way towards preventing these Shell Smashers from feeling too strong, at least to me. Blastoise is definitely more consistent against offense though, but in my experience it never felt like it was too much to handle.

:turtonator:
Turtonator: Haven't seen it yet. On paper it seems generally inferior to Torkoal, being slower and weaker, but it can hit Dragapult and Hydreigon harder with its Dragon moves. It is slow enough that anything faster than scarf base 97 can outspeed it at +2. Not much else to say about it.

:barbaracle:
Barbaracle: I have not encountered this yet either. Seems mostly worse than Blastoise honestly, since its special movepool isn't that amazing.

:torkoal:
Torkoal: I feel like Torkoal is the only Shell Smash user that feels potentially too good to me. Ridiculously strong with excellent coverage in Earth Power and Solar Beam, it's an amazing breaker or slow Scarfer even if you ignore Shell Smash. The fact that it has these alternate sets (mostly Specs which has no switch-ins) is part of what elevates it. Fast enough that you need a base 110 scarfer to outspeed it, Torkoal is one of the main reasons you would run scarf Rhyperior or Coalossal. It's super strong, able to wash bulky resists like Hydreigon at +2, and although it's frail, the fact that it resists Sylveon's Quick Attack makes that a bit more limited in dealing with it. Again, like the other Shell Smashers, priority or scarf Ditto handles it, but I always find myself having to prep for Torkoal more since it has fewer defensive AND offensive checks. I feel like Torkoal is really the only Shell Smasher that makes a case for broken cause of this versatility and the fact that it pushes speed and power to a higher level.

TLDR: Suspect Torkoal instead of Shell Smash imo
 

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