Spectral Thief alongside Bulk Up was deemed too much but i think Marshadow does deserve a suspect test
Just curious as to why this mon remains banned.
125/90/90/80/125/90 with no recovery really doesn't seem that overwhelming, especially with some of the defensive behemoths in the tier.
I'm not very experienced in this format, so I'd welcome an informed opinion on this from someone who is.
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Metagame Flipped
- Thread starter flying moose
- Start date
Steel Beam actually rounds up, so its better to use 252 HP. It's the same case with Mind Blown, although Blacephalon isn't exactly the best attacker lol. The rest of the set makes sense though.
TailGlowVM
Now 100% more demonic
I think bulky Substitute + Bulk Up sets might be considered a bit too much for the tier - it gets loads of setup opportunities with that bulk(and Drain Punch is sort of recovery?), and with its incredible STAB combination you can freely slot on a coverage move to deal with whatever usual check you want or Will-O-Wisp or whatever. While more niche because of Marshadow's poor special movepool, you also run the risk it could pull out a Calm Mind set and smack your physical wall with a +1 Focus Blast.
Just curious as to why this mon remains banned.
125/90/90/80/125/90 with no recovery really doesn't seem that overwhelming, especially with some of the defensive behemoths in the tier.
I'm not very experienced in this format, so I'd welcome an informed opinion on this from someone who is.
After playing like a billion games, here's my take on the flipped meta so far. This meta is very stally, with a big focus on bulky pivots, and wincons which aim to turn opposing bulky pivots into setup fodder. PP stall has been a factor in some games I've played, as well. Breakers are very important too, and there are some extremely powerful breakers to account for which benefit from the slow pace of the meta.
The best pivot in the metagame, it has great utility and neutral coverage with knock off and u-turn, and with AV it's probably the best special damage sponge you can use.
If you use this pokemon, please leave your room. Touch some grass. Your family misses you
It's easier to naturally check this pokemon now, but Sylveon is still one of the scariest breakers you can come across and should always be prepped for in teambuilding.
You can't really switch in on this thing as even Scarf Eruption OHKOs or 2HKOs nearly everything, and it can punish Water types or Flash Fire mons with its coverage.
Fishious rend go brr.
Sub DD is an amazing wincon and it easily maintains subs due to its bulk. Defensive sets using infiltrator to stop opposing setup are also crucial. A usable natural Torkoal resist.
Great revenge killer and is super cheap, punishing switch-ins with paralysis and flinch. It also has great coverage. Only downside is that it will struggle against some stalls due to relative lack of power
Basically runs the same sets as in standard but not as good, but also benefits from a relative lack of opposing bulky steels
Probably the most consistent rapid spinner, very bulky but really easily spinblocked, although it can maintain momentum with U-turn
Great bulk and pressure are good in a stally metagame. The biggest argument for Low Kick Mienshao. Body Press lets it maintain presence against special sponges. Dragon Dance is an unfortunate truth too.
Really fat annoying defogger. Similar utility to Mienshao but with a somewhat-less-favourable type. NP is viable too!
Excellent physical attacker. Can weaken its few switch-ins with knock off. Only downside is that it won't last forever with head smash, and it can be danced around with mienshao + poison resist.
Another great breaker with really unresisted neutral coverage, and priority too gives it great use overall.
Checks Dracovish, Sylveon. Toxic-immune and one of the best clerics, and is just great role compression.
Great defensive qualities. Trapper sets are usable too but less so.
Amazing breaker against all teams without an AV regen pivot, and even then can put in work with proper support. Defensive qualities too against Sylveon, Nihilego.
Great role compression. A lot of special mons in this run Ice Beam though, so watch out, use it more as a phys def mon.
The only remaining defensive Steel with instant recovery. Phys Def checks some key threats. Defog, Knock, Toxic are all good utility. CM is a viable late-game sweeper as it can even sponge weak fire moves when boosted.
Really omnipresent special attacker with great coverage and stats. Meteor Beam is explosively powerful. Really hates Mienshao though so it has fallen off a bit. To be more accurate, Mienshao is the main thing keeping it from dominating the meta.
Sylveon check with pivoting and defog and good bulk.
About as good as Moltres, they each have a few advantages over each other.
Great breaker with its STAB coverage as there aren't many defensive waters. Sylveon and Water check too.
Offensive psychic types are great in this due to the lack of defensive steels and not caring about Mienshao. Good offenses and enough versatility between CM and Specs to pose a threat.
Very bulky and annoying pivot, but competes with Espeon too much for a teamslot in many cases.
Rain is a viable archetype with some great breakers and sweepers.
Mantine is among the best rain sweepers. It's really powerful and has good coverage too. Flying coverage lets it destroy Roserade, Pheromosa, others.
Sub Bulk Up is a good bulky wincon, even if pretty stopped by Landorus-T.
Great coverage and attack result in a mon with no switch-ins. Rock Polish is usable too. It's still slow though.
Capable of filling defensive and offensive roles.
CB is best I think. A bulky threat that is decently strong with the right Download.
Defensive mon that blanket checks weaker physical attackers. Still need to try Sub Pressure.
I prefer this with Meteor Beam since it can be tough to revenge kill after Autotomize and Flying coverage lets it beat down Mienshao.
Good for hastening Nihilego's suicide and pivoting into Torkoal.
Not the strongest breaker but has nice utility with Flip Turn and Aqua Jet.
Generally worse that Dracovish, and a bit weaker than it. Sticky Web is a fun surprise.
Meteor Beam has favourable coverage for the meta. Other sets seem more niche.
Defensive water immunity and check to Rhyperior with good role compression.
Also checks Rhyperior and pivots too. Better only on teams that don't need a water immunity imo.
Very strong. Sturdy gives it great offensive matchups. A viable offensive spinner too. It's pretty stuffed by AV Mienshao.
Another offensive spinner that's pretty strong, priority for Rhyperior, but worse coverage than something like Regice. I actually think it's better overall than Regice, though.
Probably one of the better defensive flying resists, this helps with Mandibuzz, NP Torn and others.
CM mon with good bulk and healing. Compared to Kartana it's more vulnerable to Toxic and poison moves.
Best Hail + Veil mon. There are some pretty viable hail sweepers in this actually.
Love this with Specs, it's so hard to switch in on for most balance teams and punishes Regen cores hard. It's pretty slow though...
NP + Jungle Healing is the best set, but it's a bit too weak to Mienshao and Pheromosa to be a top threat.
Defensive Dog. Pretty great for destroying Sylveon but it has less utility than other options.
Copy that.
Can stick around and set SR in the face of Espeon. No recovery though and only really counters Nihilego.
Viable rain sweeper but like all Rock-type Meteor Beam sweepers it struggles with AV Mienshao.
Choiced sets compete with Magearna and Cresselia, Meteor Beam competes with Celesteela, still though this mon has a niche balance of defensive presence, power and Mienshao destroying capabilities.
Pretty usable Dragon Dancer. I prefer 3 attacks Soul Dew. Can beat down defensive mons like Roserade, Dragapult, Heatran.
Defensively it doesn't stick out enough imo. But I've seen this with DD as well and it's also viable.
Sylveon counter with a nice ability to poison everything. Lack of recovery makes it a little bit niche.
Pretty good special tank for Torkoal, Mandibuzz, Cresselia, others. Always invites in Mienshao and needs Wish support but it fills a niche.
Not a great defensive type but Knock Off immunity and Spikes are great.
Sub Bulk Up is good because it doesn't care much about Foul Play, Dragapult, or opposing setup, but it's a bit weak to Roserade.
Pretty good bulky mon. I'm not convinced it's better than Dragonite for most teams though.
Cleric, spikes setter, defogger.
CB Goodra can be tough to switch into, but it's a bit prediction reliant for my tastes.
Gets Swords Dances pretty easily. But it's a bit weak. Dragapult can be a thorn in its side.
Rhyperior but worse, with fire STAB. I would only seriously use this on a sun team.
Niche defensive mon. Magic Guard gives it a lot of freedom in this meta.
Pretty niche mon with a few usable sets. Hates the defensive fightings. I think it's best in a defensive role.
NP has pretty solid coverage and Weak Armor can help against offense too.
Very passive but has good utility, huge bulk but mostly just checks Torkoal.
Can be a strong breaker, but competes with Sylveon and is inconsistent.
Powerful with some utility, but too slow to be a massive threat. Something like Avalugg is better against offense. Spikes are cool though.
Really gimmicky. I will admit Thunder Cage + Rest + Rapid Spin makes for a spinner that can trap and stall some things.
There are fewer defensive steels in this meta, but Magnezone still has a strong niche in removing Kartana with Body Press.
Decent offensive mon, but it doesn't do great against some dragon types.
Interesting combo of fast taunt and great bulk make it viable, but idk how it stacks up to other defensive ghosts.
Very fat, passive, has some utility but doesn't impress me too much.
Sub CM is a usable wincon, SD can make use of Justified but struggles with Roserade, both sets dislike Dragapult too.
I've seen some players use it well. Notably shuts down STAB-only Diggersby.
I think it's a bit better than Carracosta. More niche rain sweeper, it struggles against AV Mienshao of course.
Decent Cleric / Defogger with nice physical bulk. Defensive typing is only particularly good against Goodra though.
Pretty decent bulky spinner. It overlaps with Espeon a bit though but it's really not bad at all.
LO NP is a pretty great balance breaker. Mienshao gets psyshocked, Kartana gets flamed, everything else gets hit by a water move.
This mon's niche is compressing a check to Torkoal and Nihilego with recovery and utility into one teamslot.
Yeah, Sub CM is legit. It has pretty good natural speed and bulk, and can make 101 HP subs for Alakazam or Blacephalon. Pressure is excellent. Watch out for Heatran, Dragapult.
Pretty usable offensively but hates defensive fires, Trick is nice though. Offensive Sylveon + Cresselia check?
A beastly mon tbh. Very fast in Hail, can even outspeed Adamant Chansey with a speed boosting nature. It has pretty solid coverage between Fishious Rend, Blizzard + Freeze Dry and probably Stone Edge (for Volcanion).
I used this a couple of times, infiltrator Toxic is really nice but it's super passive and didn't impress me much otherwise.
Pretty niche attacker but Misty Surge and usable coverage is great. Mixed 4 attacks can abuse common walls, choiced is probably viable too. Primarina is better at strictly physical sets though, so don't bother with those.
More niche than Mandibuzz. I've found it good against slow teams that rely on something like CB Diggersby or Sylveon for revenge killing.
Fast and reasonably powerful with Specs. Fairy types make it a matchup fish.
Makes your stall team safer against physical attackers.
Still bad. Very predictable, ruined by hazards, multihit, ability ignoring, and doesn't even hold enough power in return to be worth it. Imo keep it as a lead.
I was never a fan of this mon, now Mienshao and Pheromosa creep into its defensive niche way more. Triple Axel is a nice buff though, letting it be a credible threat sometimes.
Barely any reason to use this over Chansey imo. Belly Drum is not a consistent sweeper, and a speed tier lower than many scarf mons is rough.
I tried to make this work but it has really rubbish speed and not enough power. Still has a small niche against offense + spinblocking.
Probably the best Sturdy + Meteor Beam mon, but faces extreme issues with Mienshao. Rhyperior is just better than it in general
Everything I just said but worse. Regirock is even more outclassed than Aggron imo.
There's a lot of niche mons which impressed me, as you can judge from this list. All of these mons I have indeed used or fought. I think this meta has a lot of room to grow, would like to hear what others think.
The best pivot in the metagame, it has great utility and neutral coverage with knock off and u-turn, and with AV it's probably the best special damage sponge you can use. If you use this pokemon, please leave your room. Touch some grass. Your family misses you It's easier to naturally check this pokemon now, but Sylveon is still one of the scariest breakers you can come across and should always be prepped for in teambuilding. You can't really switch in on this thing as even Scarf Eruption OHKOs or 2HKOs nearly everything, and it can punish Water types or Flash Fire mons with its coverage. Fishious rend go brr. Sub DD is an amazing wincon and it easily maintains subs due to its bulk. Defensive sets using infiltrator to stop opposing setup are also crucial. A usable natural Torkoal resist. Great revenge killer and is super cheap, punishing switch-ins with paralysis and flinch. It also has great coverage. Only downside is that it will struggle against some stalls due to relative lack of power Basically runs the same sets as in standard but not as good, but also benefits from a relative lack of opposing bulky steels Probably the most consistent rapid spinner, very bulky but really easily spinblocked, although it can maintain momentum with U-turn Great bulk and pressure are good in a stally metagame. The biggest argument for Low Kick Mienshao. Body Press lets it maintain presence against special sponges. Dragon Dance is an unfortunate truth too. Really fat annoying defogger. Similar utility to Mienshao but with a somewhat-less-favourable type. NP is viable too! Excellent physical attacker. Can weaken its few switch-ins with knock off. Only downside is that it won't last forever with head smash, and it can be danced around with mienshao + poison resist. Another great breaker with really unresisted neutral coverage, and priority too gives it great use overall. Checks Dracovish, Sylveon. Toxic-immune and one of the best clerics, and is just great role compression. Great defensive qualities. Trapper sets are usable too but less so. Amazing breaker against all teams without an AV regen pivot, and even then can put in work with proper support. Defensive qualities too against Sylveon, Nihilego. Great role compression. A lot of special mons in this run Ice Beam though, so watch out, use it more as a phys def mon. The only remaining defensive Steel with instant recovery. Phys Def checks some key threats. Defog, Knock, Toxic are all good utility. CM is a viable late-game sweeper as it can even sponge weak fire moves when boosted. Really omnipresent special attacker with great coverage and stats. Meteor Beam is explosively powerful. Sylveon check with pivoting and defog and good bulk. About as good as Moltres, they each have a few advantages over each other. Great breaker with its STAB coverage as there aren't many defensive waters. Sylveon and Water check too. Offensive psychic types are great in this due to the lack of defensive steels and not caring about Mienshao. Good offenses and enough versatility between CM and Specs to pose a threat. Very bulky and annoying pivot, but competes with Espeon too much for a teamslot in many cases. Rain is a viable archetype with some great breakers and sweepers. Mantine is among the best rain sweepers. It's really powerful and has good coverage too. Flying coverage lets it destroy Roserade, Pheromosa, others. Sub Bulk Up is a good bulky wincon, even if pretty stopped by Landorus-T.Great coverage and attack result in a mon with no switch-ins. Rock Polish is usable too. It's still slow though.Capable of filling defensive and offensive roles.CB is best I think. A bulky threat that is decently strong with the right Download.Defensive mon that blanket checks weaker physical attackers. Still need to try Sub Pressure.I prefer this with Meteor Beam since it can be tough to revenge kill after Autotomize and Flying coverage lets it beat down Mienshao.Good for hastening Nihilego's suicide and pivoting into Torkoal.Not the strongest breaker but has nice utility with Flip Turn and Aqua Jet.Generally worse that Dracovish, and a bit weaker than it. Sticky Web is a fun surprise.Meteor Beam has favourable coverage for the meta. Other sets seem more niche.Defensive water immunity and check to Rhyperior with good role compression.Also checks Rhyperior and pivots too. Better only on teams that don't need a water immunity imo.Very strong. Sturdy gives it great offensive matchups. A viable offensive spinner too. It's pretty stuffed by AV Mienshao.Another offensive spinner that's pretty strong, priority for Rhyperior, but worse coverage than something like Regice. I actually think it's better overall than Regice, though.Probably one of the better defensive flying resists, this helps with Mandibuzz, NP Torn and others.CM mon with good bulk and healing. Compared to Kartana it's more vulnerable to Toxic and poison moves.Best Hail + Veil mon. There are some pretty viable hail sweepers in this actually.Love this with Specs, it's so hard to switch in on for most balance teams and punishes Regen cores hard. It's pretty slow though...NP + Jungle Healing is the best set, but it's a bit too weak to Mienshao and Pheromosa to be a top threat.Defensive Dog. Pretty great for destroying Sylveon but it has less utility than other options.Copy that.Can stick around and set SR in the face of Espeon. No recovery though and only really counters Nihilego.Viable rain sweeper but like all Rock-type Meteor Beam sweepers it struggles with AV Mienshao.Choiced sets compete with Magearna and Cresselia, Meteor Beam competes with Celesteela, still though this mon has a niche balance of defensive presence, power and Mienshao destroying capabilities.Pretty usable Dragon Dancer. I prefer 3 attacks Soul Dew. Can beat down defensive mons like Roserade, Dragapult, Heatran.Defensively it doesn't stick out enough imo. But I've seen this with DD as well and it's also viable.Sylveon counter with a nice ability to poison everything. Lack of recovery makes it a little bit niche.Pretty good special tank for Torkoal, Mandibuzz, Cresselia, others. Always invites in Mienshao and needs Wish support but it fills a niche.Not a great defensive type but Knock Off immunity and Spikes are great.Sub Bulk Up is good because it doesn't care much about Foul Play, Dragapult, or opposing setup, but it's a bit weak to Roserade.Pretty good bulky mon. I'm not convinced it's better than Dragonite for most teams though.Cleric, spikes setter, defogger.CB Goodra can be tough to switch into, but it's a bit prediction reliant for my tastes.Gets Swords Dances pretty easily. But it's a bit weak. Dragapult can be a thorn in its side.Rhyperior but worse, with fire STAB. I would only seriously use this on a sun team.Niche defensive mon. Magic Guard gives it a lot of freedom in this meta.Pretty niche mon with a few usable sets. Hates the defensive fightings. I think it's best in a defensive role.NP has pretty solid coverage and Weak Armor can help against offense too. Very passive but has good utility, huge bulk but mostly just checks Torkoal.Can be a strong breaker, but competes with Sylveon and is inconsistent.Powerful with some utility, but too slow to be a massive threat. Something like Avalugg is better against offense. Spikes are cool though.Really gimmicky. I will admit Thunder Cage + Rest + Rapid Spin makes for a spinner that can trap and stall some things.There are fewer defensive steels in this meta, but Magnezone still has a strong niche in removing Kartana with Body Press.Decent offensive mon, but it doesn't do great against some dragon types.Interesting combo of fast taunt and great bulk make it viable, but idk how it stacks up to other defensive ghosts.Very fat, passive, has some utility but doesn't impress me too much.Sub CM is a usable wincon, SD can make use of Justified but struggles with Roserade, both sets dislike Dragapult too.I've seen some players use it well. Notably shuts down STAB-only Diggersby. I think it's a bit better than Carracosta. More niche rain sweeper, it struggles against AV Mienshao of course.Decent Cleric / Defogger with nice physical bulk. Defensive typing is only particularly good against Goodra though.Pretty decent bulky spinner. It overlaps with Espeon a bit though but it's really not bad at all.LO NP is a pretty great balance breaker. Mienshao gets psyshocked, Kartana gets flamed, everything else gets hit by a water move.This mon's niche is compressing a check to Torkoal and Nihilego with recovery and utility into one teamslot. Yeah, Sub CM is legit. It has pretty good natural speed and bulk, and can make 101 HP subs for Alakazam or Blacephalon. Pressure is excellent. Watch out for Heatran, Dragapult. Pretty usable offensively but hates defensive fires, Trick is nice though. Offensive Sylveon + Cresselia check? A beastly mon tbh. Very fast in Hail, can even outspeed Adamant Chansey with a speed boosting nature. It has pretty solid coverage between Fishious Rend, Blizzard + Freeze Dry and probably Stone Edge (for Volcanion). I used this a couple of times, infiltrator Toxic is really nice but it's super passive and didn't impress me much otherwise. Pretty niche attacker but Misty Surge and usable coverage is great. Mixed 4 attacks can abuse common walls, choiced is probably viable too. Primarina is better at strictly physical sets though, so don't bother with those. More niche than Mandibuzz. I've found it good against slow teams that rely on something like CB Diggersby or Sylveon for revenge killing. Fast and reasonably powerful with Specs. Fairy types make it a matchup fish. Makes your stall team safer against physical attackers.Still bad. Very predictable, ruined by hazards, multihit, ability ignoring, and doesn't even hold enough power in return to be worth it. Imo keep it as a lead.I was never a fan of this mon, now Mienshao and Pheromosa creep into its defensive niche way more. Triple Axel is a nice buff though, letting it be a credible threat sometimes.Barely any reason to use this over Chansey imo. Belly Drum is not a consistent sweeper, and a speed tier lower than many scarf mons is rough. I tried to make this work but it has really rubbish speed and not enough power. Still has a small niche against offense + spinblocking.Probably the best Sturdy + Meteor Beam mon, but faces extreme issues with Mienshao. Rhyperior is just better than it in general Everything I just said but worse. Regirock is even more outclassed than Aggron imo.There's a lot of niche mons which impressed me, as you can judge from this list. All of these mons I have indeed used or fought. I think this meta has a lot of room to grow, would like to hear what others think.
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Hello! I loved your list, I had a question, what Makes Esp-eon so busted, and, to further my questions, and how did you decide on which mon got in which tiers? Also, what did you think of my teams and Analysis of my own? I'm trying very hard to provide good feedback and cool teams for people to use. Would love to have a discussion and hear your thoughtsAfter playing like a billion games, here's my take on the flipped meta so far. This meta is very stally, with a big focus on bulky pivots, and wincons which aim to turn opposing bulky pivots into setup fodder. PP stall has been a factor in some games I've played, as well. Breakers are very important too, and there are some extremely powerful breakers to account for which benefit from the slow pace of the meta.
There's a lot of niche mons which impressed me, as you can judge from this list. All of these mons I have indeed used or fought. I think this meta has a lot of room to grow, would like to hear what others think.
Not the same guy nor have I touched Flipped yet, but after spending an hour reading this entire thread Espeon's great 110 HP and 130 Def can be brutal to take down, even more than usual thanks to Magic Bounce denying a lot of common counterplay to walls. Having reliable recovery with Morning Sun helps a lot too.
zen mode may be broken (not overpowered)
the stats swapping seems to be altering the stats of opposing pokemon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8flipped-1547876114 example on chansey
the stats swapping seems to be altering the stats of opposing pokemon
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8flipped-1547876114 example on chansey
Way back before this meta was ever even playable I did a bunch of calcs on priority vs glass cannons, in this post. Hitmontop's powerful priority was a clear takeaway. Since then however, the meta has seen many new offensive threats with less frailty and/or fighting resistance, which has diluted Hitmontop's usefulness to an extent.
Yup, pretty much spot-on. Zeraora is great, and this looks even better, with a typing that's harder to counter, and Spectral Thief nullifying any attempt to do your own setup to outpace it. May be worth re-evaluating though.
I'm now going to share my thoughts on a bunch of mons I've played with. Will repeat some of what was already said in readytolose's great post, but will touch on some other pokemon as well.
New Pokemon
This isn't news to anyone who has played the meta, but RegenVest Mienshao is really, really good. It can tank special hits for days while also having decent physical bulk, and is simply an amazing pivot with utility. I have been loving Volcarona. Its physical bulk is insane yet it packs respectable damage, especially with STAB on U-turn, and Flame Body allows it to frequently punish opposing contact moves, and for those who avoid the burn it also has Will-o-wisp to get the job done. Its typing does give it some notable weakness that prevent it from blocking the full spectrum of physical attacks, but it also gives it a lot of interesting resistances, including to Sylveon. I've had success pairing Mienshao and Volc to make a pivoting duo extraordinaire. Here's a replay in which I lose in the end (well-played Nihilego that I should've burned) but showcases the two putting in a ton of work, basically carrying the team. And here are replays showing Volcarona surviving a Rock Slide (from Regice no less) and a Belly Drum Snorlax Body Slam. Really powerful wall breaker with great coverage. 90 speed gets you a lot further here than in OU, though it's still outsped by enough that it's not overwhelming. Pretty solid special attacker, benefitting from being one of the few who can seriously dent Mienshao thanks to Psyshock. I think it's best set is Choice Scarf (Psyshock, Flash Cannon, Shadow Ball, Trick), though it can also run Rock Polish. It suffers from having low base power moves however, making its damage output lower than desired. Notably, Scarf Metagross needs to be Modest to OHKO Rhyperior with Flash Cannon, and its Psyshock is only a 2HKO on Mienshao, meaning a full health Mienshao can land a painful Knock Off and then switch out, potentially healing enough to remain in play. The other powerful Psyshock user. It has natural speed at the expense of being frailer with only one STAB, though it has better coverage options. Because of its speed it can afford to do the Choice+Trick thing with Specs, allowing it to actually OHKO Mienshao. I haven't made a team where it can excel yet but it seems promising.I expected this to be so passive that it would be something of a gimmick, but I was wrong. It is the best Rapid Spinner in the meta and a great mixed defensive pivot, with Toxic, Foul Play, or Taunt complicating things for many switch-ins, depending on the move it's running. The fact that most flying attacks kinda suck make this even harder to destroy. Faster substitute users like Zeraora and Whimsicott are generally the best workarounds (provided you avoid Toxic when you get them in). Less powerful and frailer than I would like, but worth a mention for being basically unscratchable by Pheromosa.I thought this would be the premier spinner (Scald! Flip Turn! Recover! Natural Cure!) but I've been a little disappointed, as its defenses aren't quite good enough and it has some annoying weaknesses. Still I believe it's worth exploring further, as maybe it will shine when paired with the right defensive core.Like Pheromosa and Regieleki, another passive wall with amazing mixed defenses that is surprisingly good at aiding the team. Sets Rocks, Knocks items, has Roar to prevent setup, can pivot or spread Toxic.
Technically not new, but included in this section as the addition of a physical Ghost move brought it from zero usage to... some use, but still not good enough. It's a spinblocker with recovery and it has role compression as a cleric, with Cursed Body coming in handy, but Poltergeist just isn't reliable enough, given that only has 8 PP, and that it mandates that the rest of your team can't Knock items. Drifblim is better.Returning Pokemon
Even better than last time. Bulky Substitute set up is one of the best ways to abuse all the new passive mons in the tier.Fast Nasty Plot sweeper with the same strengths and weaknesses it had before (great speed and Espeon matchup, but not enough initial power) but overall I'd say the abundance of Pheromosa gives this mon a slight boost.Still great at what they do, but with slightly more competition and/or countermeasures. Not much to add.
Pretty much unseen due to Mienshao, but it is absolutely still viable (when paired with Espeon's Wish support, as before). Its role compression (AV special sponge, Rapid Spin, Knock Off, and Priority) is still as fantastic as ever, and it is still makes a great duo with our lavender Magic Bouncer.
Another often overlooked but still incredible mon. Prankster EncoreSubSeed is even better now that there are so many defensive pokes with low power.Give it Wish and/or Heal Bell support and this lizard will shine with its amazing support movepool. Stray Earthquakes do suck though.Thanks to its three very different sets, Dragapult is definitely still relevant. Sub+Dragon Dance, Infiltrator Wisp+Hex, and AV Infiltrator Dragon Tail are all excellent and are countered in completely different ways, so I believe this unpredictable pokemon is currently seeing less use than it should ultimately be getting.Still a great anti-meta pokemon, with the nearly unmatched combo of being able to both outspeed and destroy offensive pokemon like Rhyperior, and harass and outstall defensive pokemon with Sub + Roost + Pressure.This does seem to have dropped off a fair bit. Faces a lot of competition with Volcarona and Moltres as a defensive Fire pivot (and with all the other non-Fire pivots) and with other new Fire types that can both attack and defend like Volcanion and Victini. Also really doesn't appreciate its Intimidate being blocked by some new offensive threats like Regice. Certainly not unviable though.
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I would like to note that Landorus-I is legal and that mon quite decent with SF + LO or even leftoversAfter playing like a billion games, here's my take on the flipped meta so far. This meta is very stally, with a big focus on bulky pivots, and wincons which aim to turn opposing bulky pivots into setup fodder. PP stall has been a factor in some games I've played, as well. Breakers are very important too, and there are some extremely powerful breakers to account for which benefit from the slow pace of the meta.
There's a lot of niche mons which impressed me, as you can judge from this list. All of these mons I have indeed used or fought. I think this meta has a lot of room to grow, would like to hear what others think.
I considered making a weather team, but I hit a roadblock: what's a good weather setter? Torkoal is mainly used on Trick Room teams, Ninetales doesn't have enough defences back up its now-100 HP, and I can't decide if I should use Politoed for bulk or as a physical sweeper.
EDIT: I just got swept by a Slowbro.
EDIT: I just got swept by a Slowbro.
Use Pelipper, it does lose some def, spdef and speed while gaining Attack, HP and Sp. atk but its still the best rain mon
Greetings, I wanted to go a bit off meta with more offensively inclined choices and two that I've seen some decent successes with are the mysterious Latias and Zarude.
First:
Latias @ Soul Dew/Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Zen Headbutt
You can think of Latias as a physical latios that is bulkier but slower. The cool thing is that we don't have too many good setup sweepers with actually strong attacking stats, so Lati is pretty cool. Typing is nice as well, as mentioned psychic is a really strong type in the meta atm due to the lack of darks and steels. Really decent balance breaker I think, try it out! It's fun. If you don't like Life Orb recoil Soul Dew works as well.
Now for the monkey:
Zarude @ Life Orb
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Energy Ball
- Dark Pulse
- Giga Drain
- Nasty Plot
Zarude @ Choice Scarf/Choice Specs
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Dark Pulse
- Giga Drain
- Energy Ball
Zarude with Specs/NP destroys Espeon which is lovely(fuck that mon), but it's also somewhat fast and quite fat on the special side. It's special movepull is limited to stabs sadly but I think it gets the job done. Pretty fun as well.
Other notes:
Diggersby is frankly, disgusting. Hits really hard, has priority, and good coverage. If it comes in it gets a kill.
Cobalion is a nice rocks pivot, though it is unfortunate it is a steel without a psychic resist. Also Focus Blast's inconsistencies is hard to swallow.
Dracovish is really annoying to switch into unless you have Volcanion.
Volcanion is our best defogger and one of the best as a whole in the tier imo, it's really fat and annoys most physical attackers to no end.
And... that's all from me for now, I think. I do agree that this tier is mostly really fat but it's fun to find ways to punish fat stuff. Really enjoying this so far.
First:
Latias @ Soul Dew/Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Zen Headbutt
You can think of Latias as a physical latios that is bulkier but slower. The cool thing is that we don't have too many good setup sweepers with actually strong attacking stats, so Lati is pretty cool. Typing is nice as well, as mentioned psychic is a really strong type in the meta atm due to the lack of darks and steels. Really decent balance breaker I think, try it out! It's fun. If you don't like Life Orb recoil Soul Dew works as well.
Now for the monkey:
Zarude @ Life Orb
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Energy Ball
- Dark Pulse
- Giga Drain
- Nasty Plot
Zarude @ Choice Scarf/Choice Specs
Ability: Leaf Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- U-turn
- Dark Pulse
- Giga Drain
- Energy Ball
Zarude with Specs/NP destroys Espeon which is lovely(fuck that mon), but it's also somewhat fast and quite fat on the special side. It's special movepull is limited to stabs sadly but I think it gets the job done. Pretty fun as well.
Other notes:
Diggersby is frankly, disgusting. Hits really hard, has priority, and good coverage. If it comes in it gets a kill.
Cobalion is a nice rocks pivot, though it is unfortunate it is a steel without a psychic resist. Also Focus Blast's inconsistencies is hard to swallow.
Dracovish is really annoying to switch into unless you have Volcanion.
Volcanion is our best defogger and one of the best as a whole in the tier imo, it's really fat and annoys most physical attackers to no end.
And... that's all from me for now, I think. I do agree that this tier is mostly really fat but it's fun to find ways to punish fat stuff. Really enjoying this so far.
I have used Slowking a lot and it's a surprisingly good belly drum sweeper
Slowking @ Salac Berry
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Liquidation
- Zen Headbutt
- Substitute
- Belly Drum
Other notes:
- Galarian form is a option.. as it loses weaknesses to U-turn and getting poisoned and +10 SPDEF, but it loses STAB on Liquidation which can be the difference between a OKO and a 2HKO especially when half the tier is
- Those 12 HP EVs are to make sure this Pokemon's HP is divisible by 4 (had many a game where it didn't prock berry without it)
- If I had to be honest this Pokemon is VERY niche and only really performs well when given the opportunity to setup.
I tried using Belly Drum Slowking, but someone told me it didn't look good. Also, Galarian learns no physical Poison moves.
Yea... Other than Azu most preexisting Belly Drum sweepers got the short end of the stat spread stick. But here's my thoughts on some pokemon I noticed didn't get too much coverage (some for good reason)
Linoone - 100/61/50/61/70/78
Ouch. Lost a lot of speed and attack and gained some bulk.. which makes it a worse belly drum sweeper.
Cloyster - 70/45/85/180/95/50
Perhaps might be a good special attacker, but I'd say that speed drop might be killer in some cases.
Bisharp - 70/70/60/100/125/65
Ouch. Gains some bulk, but loses a lot of attack... Doesn't have many special moves to boot. Another crippled by the flip.
Galarian Moltres - 90/125/100/90/85/90
Gets some physical coverage... But the main strat I run with it without the flip isn't as effective.
Venusaur - 80/100/100/83/82/80
At first glance I thought this would be another victim of the flip. But, it has some surprisingly good physical coverage and physical boosting moves. Might be a option on sun teams.
This Mon isn't in the dex, but it is an interesting case:
Minior (Meteor) - 60/100/60/100/60/60
Instant access to high stats might be nice... But...
Minior (Core) - 120/60/100/60/100/60
Power Construct Minior?!
Probably doesn't get any better than flipped (especially if you're running shell smash) but it doubling it's HP after it hits below half is nice.
Linoone - 100/61/50/61/70/78
Ouch. Lost a lot of speed and attack and gained some bulk.. which makes it a worse belly drum sweeper.
Cloyster - 70/45/85/180/95/50
Perhaps might be a good special attacker, but I'd say that speed drop might be killer in some cases.
Bisharp - 70/70/60/100/125/65
Ouch. Gains some bulk, but loses a lot of attack... Doesn't have many special moves to boot. Another crippled by the flip.
Galarian Moltres - 90/125/100/90/85/90
Gets some physical coverage... But the main strat I run with it without the flip isn't as effective.
Venusaur - 80/100/100/83/82/80
At first glance I thought this would be another victim of the flip. But, it has some surprisingly good physical coverage and physical boosting moves. Might be a option on sun teams.
This Mon isn't in the dex, but it is an interesting case:
Minior (Meteor) - 60/100/60/100/60/60
Instant access to high stats might be nice... But...
Minior (Core) - 120/60/100/60/100/60
Power Construct Minior?!
Probably doesn't get any better than flipped (especially if you're running shell smash) but it doubling it's HP after it hits below half is nice.
I just learned the hard way that Salazzle is a great disruptive wall.
Is it just me or is Archeops pretty decent? Good bulk(110 HP/112 Def/140 Sp. Def), recovery, some decent support options, etc. Can pivot nicely as well with U-turn. Decent enough defensive typing as well(though not stellar and especially loses to meteor beam sweepers due to the stupid rock type chart).
(here's an Archeops set I've been using for a while)
Archeops (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Toxic
You can slot on Defog or heavy duty boots as well for hazard support, alongside some other cool options like tailwind, taunt, or switcheroo plus protect and substitute. It's got a surprisingly workable support move pool and for once isn't hampered by its ability. Super effective coverage is annoying(please gamefreak why do neither rock nor grass resist rock I just want viable Sewaddle).
(here's an Archeops set I've been using for a while)
Archeops (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Toxic
You can slot on Defog or heavy duty boots as well for hazard support, alongside some other cool options like tailwind, taunt, or switcheroo plus protect and substitute. It's got a surprisingly workable support move pool and for once isn't hampered by its ability. Super effective coverage is annoying(please gamefreak why do neither rock nor grass resist rock I just want viable Sewaddle).
This is coming from someone who just sort of wings it when it comes to teams, but I think there are a few Eviolite mons worth bringing up. Just for the sake of easy comparisons, I’ll be including the base stats of each Pokémon’s evolved forms as well.
Torracat - 90/50/80/50/85/65 (vs. Incineroar - 60/90/80/90/115/95)
Again, I’m not an expert. I‘ll openly admit that I try using some stupid Pokémon. This ain’t one of them, though.
There’s a case to be made for Torracat serving as an alternative for Arcanine. Its offensive stats are a fair bit lower, but with Eviolite, its bulk is actually slightly better. You lose access to the consistency of moves like Morning Sun and Teleport, but you get Fake Out and Parting Shot in return.
Kadabra - 105/70/120/30/35/40 (vs. Alakazam - 120/95/135/45/50/55)
Even with a boost, 35 Special Defense is less than ideal. At least it’s not on a Pokémon with some of the lowest HP around, though, and 120 Defense gives it some good physical bulk. Although this example doesn’t suffer from a trade-off in stats from evolving like Torracat, the disparity between Kadabra and Alakazam seems small enough to justify an Eviolite if you‘re going for something more support-based. Considering Kadabra mostly just misses out on moves even Alakazam wouldn’t be using here (stuff like Nasty Plot and Focus Blast), it’s fair to say the prior of the two can handle such a role. With access to recovery, fixed damage, a surprising amount of physical coverage and all the gimmicks you’d expect from a Psychic type, it seems like there are some potential niche uses here.
Seadra - 85/45/95/95/65/55 (vs. Kingdra - 85/95/95/95/95/75)
I’m less sure about this one than the others I’ve brought up so far, but it’s interesting enough to be brought up. Even without EVs or items, these two are essentially interchangeable in a fair amount of situations. Not being a Dragon type does have some relevant ramifications both for better and for worse, and 85/95/65 bulk isn‘t great. You’re going to have STAB Scald and tools like Clear Smog, Disable and Flip Turn either way, though, so do with that what you will.
Torracat - 90/50/80/50/85/65 (vs. Incineroar - 60/90/80/90/115/95)
Again, I’m not an expert. I‘ll openly admit that I try using some stupid Pokémon. This ain’t one of them, though.
There’s a case to be made for Torracat serving as an alternative for Arcanine. Its offensive stats are a fair bit lower, but with Eviolite, its bulk is actually slightly better. You lose access to the consistency of moves like Morning Sun and Teleport, but you get Fake Out and Parting Shot in return.
Kadabra - 105/70/120/30/35/40 (vs. Alakazam - 120/95/135/45/50/55)
Even with a boost, 35 Special Defense is less than ideal. At least it’s not on a Pokémon with some of the lowest HP around, though, and 120 Defense gives it some good physical bulk. Although this example doesn’t suffer from a trade-off in stats from evolving like Torracat, the disparity between Kadabra and Alakazam seems small enough to justify an Eviolite if you‘re going for something more support-based. Considering Kadabra mostly just misses out on moves even Alakazam wouldn’t be using here (stuff like Nasty Plot and Focus Blast), it’s fair to say the prior of the two can handle such a role. With access to recovery, fixed damage, a surprising amount of physical coverage and all the gimmicks you’d expect from a Psychic type, it seems like there are some potential niche uses here.
Seadra - 85/45/95/95/65/55 (vs. Kingdra - 85/95/95/95/95/75)
I’m less sure about this one than the others I’ve brought up so far, but it’s interesting enough to be brought up. Even without EVs or items, these two are essentially interchangeable in a fair amount of situations. Not being a Dragon type does have some relevant ramifications both for better and for worse, and 85/95/65 bulk isn‘t great. You’re going to have STAB Scald and tools like Clear Smog, Disable and Flip Turn either way, though, so do with that what you will.
Genesect @ Life Orb
Ability: Download
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Blaze Kick
- Shift Gear
- Leech Life
Yo Genesect be hittin' different
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8flipped-1556197762
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8flipped-1556201083 (I haxed the shit outta him, but the point still stands)
The severe lack of fire-type coverage in the meta from what I've faced gives Genesect a ton of opportunities to set up especially given it's 99/120/120 bulk. More often than not, I can set up multiple times in a row just due to its sheer bulk and the fact that there aren't a lot of leech life resistances that don't like taking Blaze Kick or Iron Head to the face so whatever extra damage Genesect takes, it can heal off later. The only mons that can stop Genesect are Fire types and Zeraora, and that's if they're healthy. pair this thing with lando, or really, any Fire type counter and you're golden to set up a sweep.
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It's been a couple weeks now and things have settled a bit--there's been time to establish some clear threats and for people to respond to them. I'm seeing more offense than in the first week, and far fewer teams that consist purely of hard stall. People are now making good use of some of the absurd breakers in the tier to muscle through the equally absurd stallmons. The typical playstyle actually seems to be one of balance, with, as readytolose mentioned, a lot of bulky mons pivoting and providing support to offensive threats.
As such, I'm actually not so sure we need to ban anything anymore, but the council would love to hear the community's thoughts on the matter. Several possible changes have been suggested, including the following.
Unbanning Selected Offensive Threats
We have discussed our reasons for keeping them banned before in this thread, but are willing to hear counterarguments. Marshadow is a terrifying setup sweeper in the mold of Zeraora but with dual STAB, less abusable typing, and most importantly, the ability to completely destroy opposing bulky setup with Spectral Thief. Melmetal would be the fastest relevant offensive threat in the tier apart from Snorlax and Chansey, while having amazing power and being insanely hard to wall with a regular STAB, a nuclear STAB, and BoltBeam coverage. For Melmetal, the best counterargument we can come up with is "Mienshao exists" and we haven't really had one for Marshadow, but we're curious to see if anyone else can convince us.
Unbanning Psychic Surge & Psychic Terrain
The council has been divided on this one for awhile now. Many setup sweepers have relatively low initial attacking stats, the tier is generally very tanky, and priority is already much less significant than it used to be, so the ability to provide priority immunity might be a reasonable boost to offensive teams without being broken (especially as you'd be required to run one of two otherwise terrible pokemon). On the other hand, there are many non-setup powerhouses with insane initial power that can be devastating with just a Choice Scarf, such as Torkoal, Dracovish, and Diggersby, and the ability to partner them with Psychic Terrain basically mandates checking them with defensive mons.
Banning Notorious Defensive Threats
This may be the most likely route for us to take. There are many insanely bulky defensive threats who we could assess, but few stand out as much as Espeon and Mienshao, who both provide incredible team support while being incredibly hard to kill. Special Dark types still are great at abusing Espeon at least in theory, but in practice it can still be tricky to remove since it often carries Toxic, and because of the fact that pokemon like Tyranitar and Mandibuzz have more trouble earning a spot on the team with the greater general bulk of the tier. For Mienshao, there has been a rise in tailored offensive cores that can break past it (usually with strong flying moves or Psyshock) as well as some other interesting workarounds like Weezing-Galar, but utilizing these options can still be fairly constraining. This is probably the topic we are most curious to hear the community's input on.
As such, I'm actually not so sure we need to ban anything anymore, but the council would love to hear the community's thoughts on the matter. Several possible changes have been suggested, including the following.
Unbanning Selected Offensive Threats
We have discussed our reasons for keeping them banned before in this thread, but are willing to hear counterarguments. Marshadow is a terrifying setup sweeper in the mold of Zeraora but with dual STAB, less abusable typing, and most importantly, the ability to completely destroy opposing bulky setup with Spectral Thief. Melmetal would be the fastest relevant offensive threat in the tier apart from Snorlax and Chansey, while having amazing power and being insanely hard to wall with a regular STAB, a nuclear STAB, and BoltBeam coverage. For Melmetal, the best counterargument we can come up with is "Mienshao exists" and we haven't really had one for Marshadow, but we're curious to see if anyone else can convince us.
Unbanning Psychic Surge & Psychic Terrain
The council has been divided on this one for awhile now. Many setup sweepers have relatively low initial attacking stats, the tier is generally very tanky, and priority is already much less significant than it used to be, so the ability to provide priority immunity might be a reasonable boost to offensive teams without being broken (especially as you'd be required to run one of two otherwise terrible pokemon). On the other hand, there are many non-setup powerhouses with insane initial power that can be devastating with just a Choice Scarf, such as Torkoal, Dracovish, and Diggersby, and the ability to partner them with Psychic Terrain basically mandates checking them with defensive mons.
Banning Notorious Defensive Threats
This may be the most likely route for us to take. There are many insanely bulky defensive threats who we could assess, but few stand out as much as Espeon and Mienshao, who both provide incredible team support while being incredibly hard to kill. Special Dark types still are great at abusing Espeon at least in theory, but in practice it can still be tricky to remove since it often carries Toxic, and because of the fact that pokemon like Tyranitar and Mandibuzz have more trouble earning a spot on the team with the greater general bulk of the tier. For Mienshao, there has been a rise in tailored offensive cores that can break past it (usually with strong flying moves or Psyshock) as well as some other interesting workarounds like Weezing-Galar, but utilizing these options can still be fairly constraining. This is probably the topic we are most curious to hear the community's input on.
I got the idea to make a team entirely out of untiered Pokémon partially because I like to try gimmicks, and partially because I was wondering if any of them had untapped potential.* My first match went surprisingly well. Relicanth OP pls nerf.
*This idea started when I realised that Miltank would have 105 base special attack here, but then I discovered it has no reliable special Normal moves, and its only special attack boost is Work Up.
*This idea started when I realised that Miltank would have 105 base special attack here, but then I discovered it has no reliable special Normal moves, and its only special attack boost is Work Up.
When the best argument for unbanning a Pokémon is the existence of another Pokémon whose ban is described as “likely”, that doesn’t bode well for the first one.Unbanning Selected Offensive Threats
We have discussed our reasons for keeping them banned before in this thread, but are willing to hear counterarguments. Marshadow is a terrifying setup sweeper in the mold of Zeraora but with dual STAB, less abusable typing, and most importantly, the ability to completely destroy opposing bulky setup with Spectral Thief. Melmetal would be the fastest relevant offensive threat in the tier apart from Snorlax and Chansey, while having amazing power and being insanely hard to wall with a regular STAB, a nuclear STAB, and BoltBeam coverage. For Melmetal, the best counterargument we can come up with is "Mienshao exists" and we haven't really had one for Marshadow, but we're curious to see if anyone else can convince us.
Banning Notorious Defensive Threats
This may be the most likely route for us to take. There are many insanely bulky defensive threats who we could assess, but few stand out as much as Espeon and Mienshao, who both provide incredible team support while being incredibly hard to kill. Special Dark types still are great at abusing Espeon at least in theory, but in practice it can still be tricky to remove since it often carries Toxic, and because of the fact that pokemon like Tyranitar and Mandibuzz have more trouble earning a spot on the team with the greater general bulk of the tier. For Mienshao, there has been a rise in tailored offensive cores that can break past it (usually with strong flying moves or Psyshock) as well as some other interesting workarounds like Weezing-Galar, but utilizing these options can still be fairly constraining. This is probably the topic we are most curious to hear the community's input on.
This got a bit long so I'm putting them in collapsibles. Basically my opinions on potential bans and unbans. I think the Flipped meta is actually pretty stable now, there aren't too many odious problems with it. It is of course a bulky meta but not in an unhealthy way imo.
For the brief time Melmetal was unbanned at the start of the month, it was a powerful, versatile threat. Being fast and specially offensive, it’s similar to Rhyperior. But it was overall easier to check defensively than Rhyperior. While Rhyperior can beat down nearly everything except AV Mienshao and SpDef Pheromosa with Meteor Beam + Coverage, special Melmetal had a few checks like Kartana, AV Mienshao, Excadrill, Seismitoad, SpDef Heatran, Blacephalon, SpDef Pheromosa, and some bulky offensive mons like Zeraora or Genesect. It made up for this with some other advantages, unparalleled Speed and the Steel typing made it a lot harder to revenge offensively than Rhyperior. So overall, it was powerful but manageable. My main concern with Melmetal is its ability to adapt to threats. Even in the brief time it was unbanned I saw CB and mixed attacking sets that abuse the busted Double Iron Bash to beat down and hax through special tanks. It is still a quite powerful move, even from 65 base attack, and the flinching effect on such a fast mon can be very cheap. The surprise factor of this set made me very hesitant to bring in my AV Mienshao on it. There are other reasons to run physical moves too: Earthquake destroys Heatran and Excadrill, and Superpower probably does enough to Kartana to invalidate it as a switch-in. This surprise factor made Melmetal a top threat in my eyes while it was allowed.
Overall, Melmetal is a bit of a risky unban, but I think it's lessrisky than the other options presented. With its powerful STAB on both sides of the spectrum and coverage that lets it outplay checks, it has very few true counters until its set is revealed.
This would be the best Sub + Bulk Up mon bar none. Spectral Thief is the key to its power, letting it win setup exchanges with any other mon. It's important to remember that Spectral Thief also goes through Substitutes. It can play a similar role as Dragapult on stall teams, dissuading opposing setup mons by bypassing subs. As a setup mon of its own, it has excellent neutral coverage, good bulk and a neutrality to Knock Off and Foul Play which lets it set up on a lot of defensive mons, in many ways exceeding Dragapult. Lastly, Shadow Sneak lets it potentially beat offensive teams. Sets that eschew Sub for Shadow Sneak would be excellent against offense.
Marshadow is another risky unban, riskier than Melmetal imo. It has the potentially to shape the meta around itself and would be able to fit on any type of team.
To me, keeping Psychic Terrain banned is a relic from when this meta was a lot more offensive. Priority was a key part of dealing with mons like Rhyperior and RP Steelix. Nowadays I think that unbanning it is a no-brainer. It should be noted that actually setting up and making use of this terrain is still clunky and awkward. Tapu Lele and Indeedee are both fairly clunky mons in this meta, being slow, with less coverage and power. While not completely unviable, I think Lele works only as a stallbreaker using Taunt + Nature's Madness and a decent STAB combo. Indeedee-F works as a CB mon that will mostly just trick espeon. Both are niche, and not great at supporting their team with their terrain. I'd also like to mention that there aren't any super broken Expanding Force abusers either. Cresselia is awkward because it levitates above the terrain, so the best option would probably be Metagross, but it gets the job done against AV Mienshao with Psyshock anyways.
Psychic Terrain and Psychic Surge are safe unbans, imo. I doubt this unban would even affect the meta much at all.
I briefly entertained the idea of a Steelix unban. With AV Mienshao and Torn, this should be a lot more manageable, right? But it still easily 3HKOs those mons. In fact, max SpDef AV Torn is even 2HKO'd by LO Flash Cannon! While they would be able to duel Steelix 1v1 (Tornadus-T needs to run Superpower) but any prior damage, hazard damage, or status damage can flip these matchups super easily. Steelix also gets Meteor Beam now which would destroy anyone foolish enough to use a Flying type to check Steelix. So basically it would further cement Mienshao as absolutely necessary while not really checking it unless at full HP with no prior conditions.
Steelix is an unsafe unban, more unsafe than Melmetal, I think it would still be broken.
I don't think Mienshao should be banned, it's just a very common mon but predictable due to its reliance on Regenerator and exploitable, being weak and turning over momentum to setup sweepers. In fact, I think Mienshao actually holds the metagame together with its presence. If we didn't have Mienshao, Rhyperior would probably be banworthy and a whole host of special attackers would rise up. Having a no-questions-asked check to the panoply of Meteor Beam abusers and powerful special attackers is very important for any sort of defensive play, and we've already seen many players adapt to Mienshao with sweepers or breakers that beat it down by virtue of typing and Substitute + setup mons optimized to turn it into setup fodder.
Whenever I play Espeon I want to rip my toenails off. It extends games with Wish and Heal Bell and makes me want to die. However, espeon is passive, predictable, and psychic. The standard Espeon has one of Psychic Fangs or Toxic, both of which are exploitable and turn over momentum to many viable mons. Espeon's defensive type and exploitably low Special Defense leave a lot to be desired. I feel as though Espeon mostly just walls opposing passive mons, but even passive mons have means of forcing status on it and making it waste a lot of Heal Bell and Wish PP. There is a bigger argument for Espeon being uncompetitive but I don't really think it's broken either. Still though, it feels less like a necessary evil and more just... evil. I'll admit its CM sets are unpleasant surprises. Okay, I'll admit Espeon is worth keeping an eye on, it's just harder to evaluate the factors that make this sort of mon broken or not.
This is, IMO the most broken mon in the meta currently. I shouldn't have to explain why as it is almost unchanged from standard. The most common + best check to it is Roserade, a flawed answer due to low Synthesis PP, exploitable / destroyed in Rain, and Psychic Fangs 2HKOs. Most water immunities aren't bulky enough to handle it consistently, defensive dragons get destroyed by Outrage, it's all familiar.
I felt this was broken for a while, and it kinda is, but my opinion has mellowed out a bit as I've come to appreciate Archeops and Tyranitar as well as defensive Dragons a little bit more. Still it is as close to Fire Dracovish as you can get. Scarf Eruption destroys even resists, it feels very cheap. Specs Eruption is even nuttier. Early game, before you can force damage on it with hazards, it's the worst to deal with.
Not broken but arguably centralizing and if Mienshao leaves it becomes broken.
This is similar to Dracovish, it's basically worse in nearly every way but does about the same damage, so similar arguments about it being uncompetitive can be levied against it. Just like Dracovish it has tech to beat its few checks, stuff like Ice Beam, Giga Drain and Leech Life get the job done.
TLDR;
Unban
Maybe unban
Don't unban
Don't ban
Ban
Maybe ban
Keep an eye on
For the brief time Melmetal was unbanned at the start of the month, it was a powerful, versatile threat. Being fast and specially offensive, it’s similar to Rhyperior. But it was overall easier to check defensively than Rhyperior. While Rhyperior can beat down nearly everything except AV Mienshao and SpDef Pheromosa with Meteor Beam + Coverage, special Melmetal had a few checks like Kartana, AV Mienshao, Excadrill, Seismitoad, SpDef Heatran, Blacephalon, SpDef Pheromosa, and some bulky offensive mons like Zeraora or Genesect. It made up for this with some other advantages, unparalleled Speed and the Steel typing made it a lot harder to revenge offensively than Rhyperior. So overall, it was powerful but manageable. My main concern with Melmetal is its ability to adapt to threats. Even in the brief time it was unbanned I saw CB and mixed attacking sets that abuse the busted Double Iron Bash to beat down and hax through special tanks. It is still a quite powerful move, even from 65 base attack, and the flinching effect on such a fast mon can be very cheap. The surprise factor of this set made me very hesitant to bring in my AV Mienshao on it. There are other reasons to run physical moves too: Earthquake destroys Heatran and Excadrill, and Superpower probably does enough to Kartana to invalidate it as a switch-in. This surprise factor made Melmetal a top threat in my eyes while it was allowed.Overall, Melmetal is a bit of a risky unban, but I think it's lessrisky than the other options presented. With its powerful STAB on both sides of the spectrum and coverage that lets it outplay checks, it has very few true counters until its set is revealed.
This would be the best Sub + Bulk Up mon bar none. Spectral Thief is the key to its power, letting it win setup exchanges with any other mon. It's important to remember that Spectral Thief also goes through Substitutes. It can play a similar role as Dragapult on stall teams, dissuading opposing setup mons by bypassing subs. As a setup mon of its own, it has excellent neutral coverage, good bulk and a neutrality to Knock Off and Foul Play which lets it set up on a lot of defensive mons, in many ways exceeding Dragapult. Lastly, Shadow Sneak lets it potentially beat offensive teams. Sets that eschew Sub for Shadow Sneak would be excellent against offense.Marshadow is another risky unban, riskier than Melmetal imo. It has the potentially to shape the meta around itself and would be able to fit on any type of team.
To me, keeping Psychic Terrain banned is a relic from when this meta was a lot more offensive. Priority was a key part of dealing with mons like Rhyperior and RP Steelix. Nowadays I think that unbanning it is a no-brainer. It should be noted that actually setting up and making use of this terrain is still clunky and awkward. Tapu Lele and Indeedee are both fairly clunky mons in this meta, being slow, with less coverage and power. While not completely unviable, I think Lele works only as a stallbreaker using Taunt + Nature's Madness and a decent STAB combo. Indeedee-F works as a CB mon that will mostly just trick espeon. Both are niche, and not great at supporting their team with their terrain. I'd also like to mention that there aren't any super broken Expanding Force abusers either. Cresselia is awkward because it levitates above the terrain, so the best option would probably be Metagross, but it gets the job done against AV Mienshao with Psyshock anyways.Psychic Terrain and Psychic Surge are safe unbans, imo. I doubt this unban would even affect the meta much at all.
I briefly entertained the idea of a Steelix unban. With AV Mienshao and Torn, this should be a lot more manageable, right? But it still easily 3HKOs those mons. In fact, max SpDef AV Torn is even 2HKO'd by LO Flash Cannon! While they would be able to duel Steelix 1v1 (Tornadus-T needs to run Superpower) but any prior damage, hazard damage, or status damage can flip these matchups super easily. Steelix also gets Meteor Beam now which would destroy anyone foolish enough to use a Flying type to check Steelix. So basically it would further cement Mienshao as absolutely necessary while not really checking it unless at full HP with no prior conditions.Steelix is an unsafe unban, more unsafe than Melmetal, I think it would still be broken.
I don't think Mienshao should be banned, it's just a very common mon but predictable due to its reliance on Regenerator and exploitable, being weak and turning over momentum to setup sweepers. In fact, I think Mienshao actually holds the metagame together with its presence. If we didn't have Mienshao, Rhyperior would probably be banworthy and a whole host of special attackers would rise up. Having a no-questions-asked check to the panoply of Meteor Beam abusers and powerful special attackers is very important for any sort of defensive play, and we've already seen many players adapt to Mienshao with sweepers or breakers that beat it down by virtue of typing and Substitute + setup mons optimized to turn it into setup fodder. Whenever I play Espeon I want to rip my toenails off. It extends games with Wish and Heal Bell and makes me want to die. However, espeon is passive, predictable, and psychic. The standard Espeon has one of Psychic Fangs or Toxic, both of which are exploitable and turn over momentum to many viable mons. Espeon's defensive type and exploitably low Special Defense leave a lot to be desired. I feel as though Espeon mostly just walls opposing passive mons, but even passive mons have means of forcing status on it and making it waste a lot of Heal Bell and Wish PP. There is a bigger argument for Espeon being uncompetitive but I don't really think it's broken either. Still though, it feels less like a necessary evil and more just... evil. I'll admit its CM sets are unpleasant surprises. Okay, I'll admit Espeon is worth keeping an eye on, it's just harder to evaluate the factors that make this sort of mon broken or not.This is, IMO the most broken mon in the meta currently. I shouldn't have to explain why as it is almost unchanged from standard. The most common + best check to it is Roserade, a flawed answer due to low Synthesis PP, exploitable / destroyed in Rain, and Psychic Fangs 2HKOs. Most water immunities aren't bulky enough to handle it consistently, defensive dragons get destroyed by Outrage, it's all familiar. I felt this was broken for a while, and it kinda is, but my opinion has mellowed out a bit as I've come to appreciate Archeops and Tyranitar as well as defensive Dragons a little bit more. Still it is as close to Fire Dracovish as you can get. Scarf Eruption destroys even resists, it feels very cheap. Specs Eruption is even nuttier. Early game, before you can force damage on it with hazards, it's the worst to deal with. Not broken but arguably centralizing and if Mienshao leaves it becomes broken. This is similar to Dracovish, it's basically worse in nearly every way but does about the same damage, so similar arguments about it being uncompetitive can be levied against it. Just like Dracovish it has tech to beat its few checks, stuff like Ice Beam, Giga Drain and Leech Life get the job done.TLDR;
Unban Maybe unban Don't unban Don't ban BanMaybe banKeep an eye on
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I'd like to add some underrated mentions:
. Archeops (110 / 65 / 112 / 65 / 140 / 75)
. Cresselia (85 / 130 / 75 / 120 / 70 / 120)
. Pheromosa (151 / 37 / 137 / 37 / 137 / 71)
. Archeops (110 / 65 / 112 / 65 / 140 / 75)
. Cresselia (85 / 130 / 75 / 120 / 70 / 120)
. Pheromosa (151 / 37 / 137 / 37 / 137 / 71)
Archeops has access to Defog and reliable recovery with Roost, while being able to cripple Pokemon with Toxic or Knock Off.
Archeops can run either a Physically Defensive Set (for Sylveon) or Specially Defensive Set (for Rhyperior):
Archeops @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD ; 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Knock Off / U-Turn
- Toxic
Archeops can run either a Physically Defensive Set (for Sylveon) or Specially Defensive Set (for Rhyperior):
Archeops @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Defeatist
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD ; 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Knock Off / U-Turn
- Toxic
Pheromosa is insanely bulky, and with the ability to pivot out with U-Turn, and access to reliable recovery with Roost, and being able to use Rapid Spin to remove hazards, make this thing a threat and a half. The only thing holding Pheromosa back is its 4x weakness to Flying.
Pheromosa can run a Physically Defensive Set (for Sylveon) or Specially Defensive Set (for Rhyperior):
Pheromosa @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Roost
- Rapid Spin
- Foul Play
Pheromosa can run a Physically Defensive Set (for Sylveon) or Specially Defensive Set (for Rhyperior):
Pheromosa @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Roost
- Rapid Spin
- Foul Play
Lastly, Cresselia; Cresselia is a terrific sweeper due to its fast Speed Stat and access to Calm Mind and Stored Power. It can reliably heal itself with Moonlight.
Cresselia will only run a Special Attacking Set due to its lack of Physical Moves:
Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Moonlight
- Moonblast
Cresselia will only run a Special Attacking Set due to its lack of Physical Moves:
Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Moonlight
- Moonblast
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Alas, my untiered team is no more because I kept adding and removing members when I realised they didn't work, and ultimately couldn't figure out what to put in my sixth slot without breaking the pattern. RIP OP Relicanth 2022 - 2022.