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Flygon (Full Revamp) +
- Thread starter cim
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I have to disagree there Havak :/
Fire Blast is more useful on the CB set, in my opinion. It's worse against Special Defensive Bronzong but the ability to 2HKO Skarmory is pretty important. Also, with Magnezone support (as you suggest) Stone Edge becomes a very attractive option for Zapdos, Gyarados, and the like so you don't have to lock yourself into Outrage. I believe this should be mentioned on the set. Also, you should point out you are not guaranteed to 2HKO max/max Suicune even with Stealth Rock support (60% chance) and you are never going to without it. It should probably also be mentioned you can 2HKO the 401 HP / 297 Def Swampert with Outrage but even if one simply maxs out HP you no longer are guaranteed a 2HKO (although its extremely likely). Stealth Rock shouldn't just be recommended, it really should be mandatory. Also, you do not OHKO 252 HP / 220 Def Bold Celebi with a CB U-Turn, and you'll very rarely do it with SR support.
You only outrun Adamant Lucario btw. This is much more important to note in DPP since Lucario can now run Ice Punch on the SD set.
I also kinda don't like how through all the phrasing you seem to imply that this guy switches into Tyranitar and Heatran with ease. Even in the case of Heatran, a simple Life Orb Fire Blast can do 47% - 56% to Flygon. I wouldn't call that switching in with ease. You better be damn sure you are coming in on an EP before you switch Flygon into this since that's not exactly nothing damage as your analysis seems to imply. That's 2 switch ins to a resisted move with SR. With the CB set you aren't even running Roost so that's even worse. Not an ideal switch in at all.
The Screech set has some potential to it. I'd like to see the set comments oriented a bit more offensively. Why not Life Orb? Yeah, force switches with Screech and have Spikes that's great, but why not hammer the switches with a LO Outrage while you are at too? With Spikes and Outrage, you are taking major damage. If your opponent is foolish enough to stay in after a screech. Even better. You can switch in later and Roost off damage as well. I see Sub-Screech being such a waste on Flygon without taking advantage of his offensive abilities w/ Life Orb and Outrage.
On the Toxic stall set, why Timid ?_? Why not Jolly. Why weaken your STAB EQ?
I'm just going to put this bluntly. The Choice Specs set is garbage. Even with STAB Draco Meteor, it's just not worth it to Specs this guy with only 80 base Special attack. I'd really just scrap the set altogether. Try to work out a mixed set with Draco Meteor and then I can see some usefulness but the lack of SR weakness in no way would ever make me want to use this over Salamence.
Fire Blast is more useful on the CB set, in my opinion. It's worse against Special Defensive Bronzong but the ability to 2HKO Skarmory is pretty important. Also, with Magnezone support (as you suggest) Stone Edge becomes a very attractive option for Zapdos, Gyarados, and the like so you don't have to lock yourself into Outrage. I believe this should be mentioned on the set. Also, you should point out you are not guaranteed to 2HKO max/max Suicune even with Stealth Rock support (60% chance) and you are never going to without it. It should probably also be mentioned you can 2HKO the 401 HP / 297 Def Swampert with Outrage but even if one simply maxs out HP you no longer are guaranteed a 2HKO (although its extremely likely). Stealth Rock shouldn't just be recommended, it really should be mandatory. Also, you do not OHKO 252 HP / 220 Def Bold Celebi with a CB U-Turn, and you'll very rarely do it with SR support.
You only outrun Adamant Lucario btw. This is much more important to note in DPP since Lucario can now run Ice Punch on the SD set.
I also kinda don't like how through all the phrasing you seem to imply that this guy switches into Tyranitar and Heatran with ease. Even in the case of Heatran, a simple Life Orb Fire Blast can do 47% - 56% to Flygon. I wouldn't call that switching in with ease. You better be damn sure you are coming in on an EP before you switch Flygon into this since that's not exactly nothing damage as your analysis seems to imply. That's 2 switch ins to a resisted move with SR. With the CB set you aren't even running Roost so that's even worse. Not an ideal switch in at all.
The Screech set has some potential to it. I'd like to see the set comments oriented a bit more offensively. Why not Life Orb? Yeah, force switches with Screech and have Spikes that's great, but why not hammer the switches with a LO Outrage while you are at too? With Spikes and Outrage, you are taking major damage. If your opponent is foolish enough to stay in after a screech. Even better. You can switch in later and Roost off damage as well. I see Sub-Screech being such a waste on Flygon without taking advantage of his offensive abilities w/ Life Orb and Outrage.
On the Toxic stall set, why Timid ?_? Why not Jolly. Why weaken your STAB EQ?
I'm just going to put this bluntly. The Choice Specs set is garbage. Even with STAB Draco Meteor, it's just not worth it to Specs this guy with only 80 base Special attack. I'd really just scrap the set altogether. Try to work out a mixed set with Draco Meteor and then I can see some usefulness but the lack of SR weakness in no way would ever make me want to use this over Salamence.
The specs set IS viable though. It just.... works. Sure it pales in comparison to Salamence, but Flygon has a myriad of opportunities to get in and can use the somewhat surprise factor to do surprising damage. I mean Fire Blast 2HKOs Bronzong and OHKOs Skarmory, Earth Power is solid for STAB which can hit the things Specsmence does have trouble with, and Draco Meteor just hurts... it just does.
Choice Specs is Other Options material at most. It's one thing using an 80 base stat in a mixed set, such as using Fire Blast on a predominantly physical set; it's another thing to depend entirely on 80 base Special Attack, which, even with Choice Specs and Draco Meteor, is quite weak.
Tbh I was only a fan of Specs when Flygon couldn't otherwise 2HKO Vaporeon and Suicune, but now that you can I'll probably make it Other Options. I think Hippowdon is the only use for it and most don't even run Ice Fang anymore...
Caelum, how many Heatrans run Life Orb Fire Blast? Not really any of them now, they're all Scarfed... Mostly Timid Choice Scarf Flamethrower / Fire Blast, which Flygon can switch into a few times (two or three), especially with a neutral nautre...
The reason LO and Outrage suck on Screech is that the set by its nature needs to take hits. Also, you can't use a different move once you Outrage, so what ends up happening is you force something out to take a LO Outrage, praying that it's not a Steel type or whatever. The recoil biting you in the ass in a more defensive set is also a pain...
Toxic Stall is copypasted from Aldaron. I don't know anything about it to be honest...
Caelum, how many Heatrans run Life Orb Fire Blast? Not really any of them now, they're all Scarfed... Mostly Timid Choice Scarf Flamethrower / Fire Blast, which Flygon can switch into a few times (two or three), especially with a neutral nautre...
The reason LO and Outrage suck on Screech is that the set by its nature needs to take hits. Also, you can't use a different move once you Outrage, so what ends up happening is you force something out to take a LO Outrage, praying that it's not a Steel type or whatever. The recoil biting you in the ass in a more defensive set is also a pain...
Toxic Stall is copypasted from Aldaron. I don't know anything about it to be honest...
I haven't used it extensively (I have used it before, though), but I don't see why Specs Flygon should be scrapped. STAB Earth Power and U-turn is enough to differentiate it from Salamence in my opinion, as well as a Stealth Rock resistance that allows it more switch-ins. 80 Base Special Attack isn't exactly Palkia, but with those high-power moves I think it's more than just "Other Options" material.
It's not a matter of differentiation from Salamence. It's a matter of Flygon's stats making it a poor set.
I don't think its that poor, it is perfectly viable. It's not Salamence, and its not his best set but it IS viable. What separates Specs Flygon from Specs Swampert suggested a few pages back? Swampert has 5 base attack more, and lacks a 140 Base Power STAB attack.
My question is, what happened to Choice Scarf? It still works... I was using it fantastically yesterday. It's slightly weaker than Chomp obviously, but switching into shit not worrying about spikes / toxic spikes is fantastic.
[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move1: Earthquake
move2: Outrage
move3: Stone Edge / Draco Meteor / Fire Blast
move4: U-Turn
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Adamant / Naughty
evs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p> Flygon's resistances and immunities give it plenty of opportunities to switch in and score some surprise kills. Earthquake and Outrage are your primary STAB options, resisted only by Bronzong and Skarmory. Stone Edge allows you to revenge kill that Gyarados, and can pick off a weakened Zapdos. Draco Meteor allows Flygon to beat a weakened Physical wall and gets the jump on Salamence and Kingdra without locking yourself in. Fire Blast fries Skarmory for a 2HKO and is your best option against Bronzong.</p>
<p> If you go with Draco Meteor, switch your nature to Naughty and distribute those 80 HP EVs into Special Attack. This will give you the power to revenge kill Kingdra and Salamence, as well as to always a 2HKO Skarmory. Jolly nature can also be used to revenge kill a Dragon Danced Salamence, but the power drop makes it a poor option. </p>
My question is, what happened to Choice Scarf? It still works... I was using it fantastically yesterday. It's slightly weaker than Chomp obviously, but switching into shit not worrying about spikes / toxic spikes is fantastic.
[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move1: Earthquake
move2: Outrage
move3: Stone Edge / Draco Meteor / Fire Blast
move4: U-Turn
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Adamant / Naughty
evs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p> Flygon's resistances and immunities give it plenty of opportunities to switch in and score some surprise kills. Earthquake and Outrage are your primary STAB options, resisted only by Bronzong and Skarmory. Stone Edge allows you to revenge kill that Gyarados, and can pick off a weakened Zapdos. Draco Meteor allows Flygon to beat a weakened Physical wall and gets the jump on Salamence and Kingdra without locking yourself in. Fire Blast fries Skarmory for a 2HKO and is your best option against Bronzong.</p>
<p> If you go with Draco Meteor, switch your nature to Naughty and distribute those 80 HP EVs into Special Attack. This will give you the power to revenge kill Kingdra and Salamence, as well as to always a 2HKO Skarmory. Jolly nature can also be used to revenge kill a Dragon Danced Salamence, but the power drop makes it a poor option. </p>
Also the Mixed Scarfed set of Flygon on the actual strategy pokedex analysis is really useful, I've used it for a long time ago, and it works really good.
name: Choice Scarf
move1: Earthquake
move2: Stone Edge/ Fire Blast
move3: Draco Meteor
move4: U-Turn
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Naughty
evs: 252 Atk / 120 SpA / 136 Spe
name: Choice Scarf
move1: Earthquake
move2: Stone Edge/ Fire Blast
move3: Draco Meteor
move4: U-Turn
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Naughty
evs: 252 Atk / 120 SpA / 136 Spe
They are, but this is the platinum revamp. Therefore you need to include Outrage, and the EVs need to be changed to outspeed scarf heatran, hence my set.
Chris, can you please make the changes I suggested about 2HKOs in my previous post and the falsely claimed OHKO on Celebi. A reader could misunderstand what you mean if you are not more clear. Also, I do insist the Stone Edge should be an option on the CB set with Magnezone support and that Fire Blast is the much more attractive option but that's fine.
I can let my other suggestions be ignored since its not my decision but I have to insist you provide accurate information to the reader.
I can let my other suggestions be ignored since its not my decision but I have to insist you provide accurate information to the reader.
Well, Electivire (1) sucks and (2) has been Jolly in my experience. If you want to outrun Electivire, though, go ahead...
I'm really, really going to update it right now.
Specs Flygon pasted here in case someone really wants it in... For now it's OO material.
[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move1: Draco Meteor
move2: Earth Power
move3: Fire Blast
move4: U-Turn / Dragon Pulse
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest
evs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>While a Special Attacking Flygon doesn't quite have the offensive potential of the Choice Band set, it still has the potential to hit very hard, 2HKOing the average Swampert and Vaporeon with Draco Meteor. Earth Power is a reliable STAB attack that hits many Steel-types for Super-Effective damage, especially Heatran and Metagross. Fire Blast is for Skarmory, Bronzong, and the Bug/Steels, whom can all take Draco Meteor or Earth Power (except Forretress).</p>
<p>The last attack is basically filler as Flygon doesn't really need any other attacks. U-Turn allows for scouting and does a small amount of damage to whomever switches in. Dragon Pulse is for reliable STAB, although it's not as necessary on Flygon as it is on Salamence because Flygon has sweeping Earth Power STAB.</p>
I'm really, really going to update it right now.
Specs Flygon pasted here in case someone really wants it in... For now it's OO material.
[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move1: Draco Meteor
move2: Earth Power
move3: Fire Blast
move4: U-Turn / Dragon Pulse
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest
evs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>While a Special Attacking Flygon doesn't quite have the offensive potential of the Choice Band set, it still has the potential to hit very hard, 2HKOing the average Swampert and Vaporeon with Draco Meteor. Earth Power is a reliable STAB attack that hits many Steel-types for Super-Effective damage, especially Heatran and Metagross. Fire Blast is for Skarmory, Bronzong, and the Bug/Steels, whom can all take Draco Meteor or Earth Power (except Forretress).</p>
<p>The last attack is basically filler as Flygon doesn't really need any other attacks. U-Turn allows for scouting and does a small amount of damage to whomever switches in. Dragon Pulse is for reliable STAB, although it's not as necessary on Flygon as it is on Salamence because Flygon has sweeping Earth Power STAB.</p>
SR really makes Flygon KO everything, so I'll add emphasis.
Here will be a comprehensive damage calc table. So far it's just what skiddle had but with KO odds, I'll expand to this. If I'm missing a key Pokémon (I need Cress and Hippowdon here) then post please. Once I incorporate this the analysis is basically done.
The 2HKO with SR + Sand Stream odds don't factor in how Sand Stream "comes before" Leftovers, if someone could do that for me I'd be super happy.
Outrage vs. max HP / max Def Suicune: 43.56%-51.49% (60% 2HKO with SR, 100% 2HKO with SR + Sand Stream)
Outrage vs. max HP / max Def Vaporeon: 56.9%-67.03% (2HKO)
Outrage vs. max HP / max Def Swampert: 51.49%-60.64% (2HKO with SR)
Outrage vs. max HP / max Def Zapdos: 55.99%-66.15% (2HKO)
Outrage vs. max HP / max Def Cresselia: 38.51% - 45.5% (10% 2HKO with SR + Sand Stream)
Dragon Claw vs. max HP / max Def Zapdos: 37.5%-44.27% (55% 2HKO with Stealth Rock, 100% with Stealth Rock + Sand Stream)
Dragon Claw vs. max HP / min Def Rotom-f: 55.92%-65.79% (2HKO)
Earthquake vs. max HP / max Def Vaporeon: 47.63%-56.03% (2HKO with SR)
Earthquake vs. max HP / max Def Jirachi: 79.95%-94.06% (7% OHKO with SR)
U-Turn vs. max HP / 220 Def Celebi: 77.23% - 91.09% (20% OHKO with SR)
U-Turn vs. max HP / max Def Cresselia: 30.18% - 35.59%
Fire Punch vs. max HP / max Def Skarmory: 38.32% - 45.51% (10% 2HKO with SR / no Leftovers)
Fire Punch vs. max HP / max Def Bronzong: 43.2% - 51.48% (55% 2HKO with SR / Leftovers)
Fire Blast vs. max HP / min SpD Skarmory: 63.47% - 74.85% (2HKO)
Fire Blast vs. max HP / 92 SpD Sassy Bronzong: 37.87% - 44.97% (3HKO)
Here will be a comprehensive damage calc table. So far it's just what skiddle had but with KO odds, I'll expand to this. If I'm missing a key Pokémon (I need Cress and Hippowdon here) then post please. Once I incorporate this the analysis is basically done.
The 2HKO with SR + Sand Stream odds don't factor in how Sand Stream "comes before" Leftovers, if someone could do that for me I'd be super happy.
Outrage vs. max HP / max Def Suicune: 43.56%-51.49% (60% 2HKO with SR, 100% 2HKO with SR + Sand Stream)
Outrage vs. max HP / max Def Vaporeon: 56.9%-67.03% (2HKO)
Outrage vs. max HP / max Def Swampert: 51.49%-60.64% (2HKO with SR)
Outrage vs. max HP / max Def Zapdos: 55.99%-66.15% (2HKO)
Outrage vs. max HP / max Def Cresselia: 38.51% - 45.5% (10% 2HKO with SR + Sand Stream)
Dragon Claw vs. max HP / max Def Zapdos: 37.5%-44.27% (55% 2HKO with Stealth Rock, 100% with Stealth Rock + Sand Stream)
Dragon Claw vs. max HP / min Def Rotom-f: 55.92%-65.79% (2HKO)
Earthquake vs. max HP / max Def Vaporeon: 47.63%-56.03% (2HKO with SR)
Earthquake vs. max HP / max Def Jirachi: 79.95%-94.06% (7% OHKO with SR)
U-Turn vs. max HP / 220 Def Celebi: 77.23% - 91.09% (20% OHKO with SR)
U-Turn vs. max HP / max Def Cresselia: 30.18% - 35.59%
Fire Punch vs. max HP / max Def Skarmory: 38.32% - 45.51% (10% 2HKO with SR / no Leftovers)
Fire Punch vs. max HP / max Def Bronzong: 43.2% - 51.48% (55% 2HKO with SR / Leftovers)
Fire Blast vs. max HP / min SpD Skarmory: 63.47% - 74.85% (2HKO)
Fire Blast vs. max HP / 92 SpD Sassy Bronzong: 37.87% - 44.97% (3HKO)
Im wondering why in the CB set Adamant isnt listed? Itd be one thing if Fire Blast were the only listed option but since Fire Punch (and the other 2 Physical moves..) are there, and going off of what you said regarding Fire Blast vs Fire Punch, its really just a coinflip for most people. Perhaps put Adamant as the main Nature, then add Naughty/Lonely in the paragraph concerning FB vs FP?
Really nice over all imo tho.
Really nice over all imo tho.
Trim these down a bit and I'll add a calc table to the analysis. Eliminate the less obvious ones like "EQ OHKOs Tyranitar". The number of them are a bit excessive. After that I'll run through this and make some edits and try to get this on-site since flygon changed substantially and needs an update.