Follow The Leader [Pre Viability Ranking Discussion!]

[NOCturnal Hunter]

Gale Wings needs a suspect test DESPERATELY. It single handedly breaks almost everything in the metagame, and is spamable on almost ANYTHING. Between Landorus-T, Skarmory, and Salamence, these teams can tear apart the whole metagame, and essentially force you to use Tyranitar with Recover, and even THAT can be stopped.

On another note, Prankster is also very good in this metagame. It, in conjunction with GW teams, can break almost every team around. My current Prankster spam team is a Murkrow team (you heard that right, Murkrow). The team relies on Perish Song+Mean Look, supported via Defog, Roost, and Status moves. Unfortunately, offensive teams are more common, which mean that stall breaking teams like mine aren't really needed. Offensive teams also kill off my team.

Speaking of stall teams, this is a beta stall team that I just built to deal with SmogBird teams

Sally Stall

BOOM (Salamence) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Shadow Claw

Healz (Chansey) @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Defog
- Roar

Derp (Hippowdon) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Roar
- Toxic
- Earthquake

Nerf (Sableye) @ Sablenite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Roar
- Defog
- Crunch

Tyrant (Tyranitar) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Roar
- Toxic
- Stone Edge

Get Out (Hoopa-Unbound) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Crunch
- Roost

I haven't used it yet, but I hope it's good!

 

[Trex]

But aggron gets rock head lol

Well, some people can't read, and I am one of those people.

 

[Stocke]

I didn't see it mentioned, but this returned from MnM:

Sceptile(Heliolisk)@sceptilite
Electrify

Probably wasn't mentioned because Heliolisk doesn't really have the movepool to support an entire team. Its movepool isn't bad, sure, but its coverage and support options still leave a bit to be desired.

Also, was looking for donors of vacuum wave and breloom might be a nightmarish offensive donor. Technician priority on both sides and reasonable coverage (especially technician hp). Let diwn by hazards though. But spore on everything.

If you still want Vacuum Wave + Technician, there's always Scizor. Or Hitmontop.

edit: okay since I'm bored, I'll go ahead and weigh the pros and cons of basing a team off Scizor or Hitmontop:

Hitmontop: Has four different Technician-boosted priority moves: Quick Attack, Mach Punch, Bullet Punch, and Vacuum Wave. Has hazard control in the form of Rapid Spin, as well as decent coverage in Close Combat/High Jump Kick, Aerial Ace, Sucker Punch, and Rock Slide. In addition, it also gets Intimidate as an alternate ability to Technician. Doesn't get Swords Dance though, and its special movepool is very thin.
Scizor: Only three Technician-boosted priority moves: Quick Attack, Bullet Punch, and Vacuum Wave. Its hazard control takes the form of Defog instead of Rapid Spin. To distinguish it from Hitmontop, it has nice special coverage in the form of Technician Ominous Wind and Silver Wind, Flash Cannon, Bug Buzz, and Air Slash.

Overall, there are better choices for team leaders. Scizor and Hitmontop might be two of the best Technician leaders, though.

 

[Mega Ampharos]

Anyway, continuing with the whole leader-posting train thing:

Ability choices: Levitate (that's it)
Physical options: Body Slam, Crunch, Double-Edge, Dragon Claw, Dragon Tail, Earthquake, Façade, Fire Punch, Frustration/Return, Iron Tail, Outrage, Power-Up Punch, Quick Attack, Rock Slide, Stone Edge, Superpower, Thunder Punch, U-turn
Special options: Air Cutter, Boomburst, Bug Buzz, Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Earth Power, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Giga Drain, Ominous Wind, Signal Beam
Status options: Defog, Hone Claws, Protect, Roost, Substitute, Tailwind, Toxic

What it has: Ground immunities for everyone; hazard control; reliable recovery; the coveted Boomburst; more offensive options than Noivern could ever dream of; U-turn
What it lacks: hazards of its own (I was thinking it had Stealth Rock, but apparently I was mistaken); Taunt; any ability choice other than Levitate; any boosts going beyond +1

Sorry but Flygon doesn't have Boomburst. Without that it is outclassed by Noivern or just about any dragon for having a about-average movepool and a common Ability.

For everyone saying that Gale Wings is broken, it has its flaws. Talonflame has a bad below-average movepool and limited coverage except for Flying, Fire and Normal and the only form of hazard removal is a Magic Bounce Pokemon which are both Megas. Considering that on a Gales Wings team there are mostly flying Pokemon, they will be taking a lot of damage including a 50% by the leader itself.

 

[Mygavolt]

Sorry but Flygon doesn't have Boomburst.

Flygon gets Boomburst from Vibrava, and as far as I'm sure, moves obtained from pre-evolutions are not illegal.

EDIT: Even if it were, you would just use Vibrava as a leader (even though it's objectively worse), and the only moves I listed that are available to Flygon and not Vibrava are: Dragon Claw, Dragon Tail, Fire Punch, Iron Tail, Power-Up Punch, Stone Edge (but it still has Rock Slide), Thunder Punch, Fire Blast, and Flamethrower (in which case you'd have to use Heat Wave instead). Simply put, not much change, and the sets of the recipients I listed don't change much apart from Terrakion having to run a different option aside from its tertiary STAB (in which case I might use Earthquake or Crunch or some other filler option) and Glalie and Heatran having to run Heat Wave over Fire Blast and Flamethrower, respectively.

Also, Noivern doesn't get Ground coverage or Defog.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Sorry but Flygon doesn't have Boomburst. Without that it is outclassed by Noivern or just about any dragon for having a about-average movepool and a common Ability.

For everyone saying that Gale Wings is broken, it has its flaws. Talonflame has a bad below-average movepool and limited coverage except for Flying, Fire and Normal and the only form of hazard removal is a Magic Bounce Pokemon which are both Megas. Considering that on a Gales Wings team there are mostly flying Pokemon, they will be taking a lot of damage including a 50% by the leader itself.

Flygon does have boomburst lol.

You say this, but it doesn't matter. I have been running a mono flying team (on challenge admittedly, but even vs people who have fought me before have found it doesn't matter. Gale wings Landot, MMence, Staraptor are just so powerful that even resists cant save your opponent. On multiple occaions, I have powered through Rhydon (mew), Omastar (mew), Skarmory (murkrow/dragonite/mew), and even unaware teams that have had rhypherior/skarm. Further, it has an incredible mega in Aerodactyl and a great setup sweeper in Skarmory. It has flaws, but they really don't stop it from being what is likely the best leader. Its easily more broken than KYubey. You say it only has those coverage, but it does have uturn, and steel wing, and neat special options, plus natural gift if you feel lucky.

Also there are 3 magic bouncers (although 2 offensive ones I geuss), but why you would use any bar sableye on a balance birdspam team I have no idea.

 

[sin(pi)]

nO reCoiL (Conkeldurr) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Mach Punch
- Fire Punch

SD and Assault Vest aren't best buds.

Gale Wings needs a suspect test DESPERATELY. It single handedly breaks almost everything in the metagame, and is spamable on almost ANYTHING. Between Landorus-T, Skarmory, and Salamence, these teams can tear apart the whole metagame, and essentially force you to use Tyranitar with Recover, and even THAT can be stopped.

While I agree that GW is mindless and most likely suspect worthy, there are some counters/checks. Regirock, Ttar and Eviolite Rhydon are the 3 that come to mind - I think Wisp+Recovery Rhydon 6-0s Talonflame teams especially if you can get up rocks.

 

[NOCturnal Hunter]

While I agree that GW is mindless and most likely suspect worthy, there are some counters/checks. Regirock, Ttar and Eviolite Rhydon are the 3 that come to mind - I think Wisp+Recovery Rhydon 6-0s Talonflame teams especially if you can get up rocks.

For everyone saying that Gale Wings is broken, it has its flaws. Talonflame has a bad below-average movepool and limited coverage except for Flying, Fire and Normal and the only form of hazard removal is a Magic Bounce Pokemon which are both Megas. Considering that on a Gales Wings team there are mostly flying Pokemon, they will be taking a lot of damage including a 50% by the leader itself.

Did I not mention that even IF you are prepared to deal with it, you could always come across a stallbreaking like, say, my Murkrow team? Yeah, Gale Wings needs a suspect test more than Kyurem-B, and I helped start that suspect test.

Speaking of my Murkrow team, I've realized that every stall team has a very huge flaw: they can only use 1 mega evolution. That isn't a flaw? Okay, but they either need Mold Breaker or Magic Bounce (Magic Bounce to avoid being killed by teams like my PS team, Mold Breaker to reliable set up hazards), and the only way to get both is to use either a Mold Breaking leader (okay, how many Moldies do you know of that have a good defensive movepool? I thought so...) or a Magic Bounce Leader (while Xatu is good for its movepool, it does wish it had hazards), which don't have many good qualities.

Also, I don't think Aegislash is broken here. It doesn't have good ability/movepool (outside of King's Shield), making it a terrible leader, and as a follower, it can't access its Blade form and has horrid defensive typing, making it outclassed by Registeel/Skarmory/Heatran/Ferrothorn/Bronzong. Its only redeeming qualities are Head Smash (which his teammates hate, due to the damage taken) and King's Shield. What do you guys think?

Also, I was checking out Trick Room users. Hypno was one, so I decided to look through its movepool. Damn, it has one of the most bad ass movepools I've ever seen. Hypnosis, Belly Drum, Baton Pass, Wish, Disable, Oh My Lord. If only if it had a viable ability. Well, Insomnia would be good, only GW teams are the best teams around. And Lucario teams are also pretty good. Honestly, if GW gets banned, I expect that Hypno teams might be around B++ (not A to A+ because Clefable exists). Still, Hypno teams don't even NEED a belly drum sweeper, due to Hypno's access to Trick Room, Nasty Plot, Baton Pass, Trick, Switcheroo, and Hypnosis.

I really think we need to make a PiratePad labeling leader viabily ranks, just so we can develop this a little faster.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338236090
This is my birdspam team, Running straight through 2 bulky resists, 2 physical walls, and 2 decently bulky pokes. They had burns. They had recovery. They were nearly as prepared as it is possible to get. And they lost.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338239783
The closest I have gotten to losing, and its against another birdspam team.

Talonflame is broken as fuck, and honestly the fact that it isn't banned is dumb.

 

[Ghoul King]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338236090
This is my birdspam team, Running straight through 2 bulky resists, 2 physical walls, and 2 decently bulky pokes. They had burns. They had recovery. They were nearly as prepared as it is possible to get. And they lost.

... they lost by playing incredibly badly, constantly trying to setup and not heal or spread Burns or otherwise do anything except constantly try to set up, and with some iffy teambuild choices in general. Why was the only Cosmic Power user in the team apparently Sigilyph itself, for instance?

They should've won, if they'd played well. They didn't play well.

Gale Wings needs a suspect test DESPERATELY. It single handedly breaks almost everything in the metagame, and is spamable on almost ANYTHING. Between Landorus-T, Skarmory, and Salamence, these teams can tear apart the whole metagame, and essentially force you to use Tyranitar with Recover, and even THAT can be stopped.

Not sure why you're picking out Tyranitar when Rhydon with no Eviolite is bulkier than it. More HP and Defense. Also worth commentary is that Aggron with any kind of Fire protection (Thick Fat or Flashfire) is basically a hard stop to Talonflame teams, with the double Flying resistance and excellent stats. Relicanth is also bulkier than Tyranitar and laughs at pretty much anything Talonflame brings to bear except Natural Gift. Tyrantrum is another bulky case, throwing in double Fire resist.

I'm not sure what Gale Wings would do to beat Unaware Aggron without turning to Special attackers or Mold Breakers, and -atespeed is possible in the meta too -Mega Pinsir backing Dragonite or something will tear you apart entirely.

Gale Wings is definitely excellent, but I'm unconvinced that it's broken.

 

[NOCturnal Hunter]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338236090
This is my birdspam team, Running straight through 2 bulky resists, 2 physical walls, and 2 decently bulky pokes. They had burns. They had recovery. They were nearly as prepared as it is possible to get. And they lost.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338239783
The closest I have gotten to losing, and its against another birdspam team.

Talonflame is broken as fuck, and honestly the fact that it isn't banned is dumb.

I whole heartedly agree, although I still believe the only thing broken about it is Gale Wings.

... they lost by playing incredibly badly, constantly trying to setup and not heal or spread Burns or otherwise do anything except constantly try to set up, and with some iffy teambuild choices in general. Why was the only Cosmic Power user in the team apparently Sigilyph itself, for instance?

They should've won, if they'd played well. They didn't play well.



Not sure why you're picking out Tyranitar when Rhydon with no Eviolite is bulkier than it. More HP and Defense. Also worth commentary is that Aggron with any kind of Fire protection (Thick Fat or Flashfire) is basically a hard stop to Talonflame teams, with the double Flying resistance and excellent stats. Relicanth is also bulkier than Tyranitar and laughs at pretty much anything Talonflame brings to bear except Natural Gift. Tyrantrum is another bulky case, throwing in double Fire resist.

I'm not sure what Gale Wings would do to beat Unaware Aggron without turning to Special attackers or Mold Breakers, and -atespeed is possible in the meta too -Mega Pinsir backing Dragonite or something will tear you apart entirely.

Gale Wings is definitely excellent, but I'm unconvinced that it's broken.

Okay, then they just bring in Will-o-Wisp and watch you flail away at it. Flash Fire may work...If they don't have a Me First user.

Another thing I would like to mention is that I never said that GW can't be walled. It may be tricky, but it CAN be walled (proof: this). The real problem is that it kills balance, forcing you to use Intimidate users/Unaware users to beat it. And all of the counters you have mentioned? What else are they viable against? Special attackers aren't common, but they exist. When Rain and Sun get good users/teams, will those counters be able to do jack against weather? In fact, I might build a weather based GW team, since Talonflame gets Solar Beam! Where are your counters now?

Let's face it; Bird Spam is ridiculously good. It kills 90% of offense (yeah, Lucario/Dragonite teams are exceptions), and 20% of stall doesn't like it either.If something comes along and threatens their current build, they can change one of two moves and give that playstyle a run for its money.

On other, more productive, notes, we need more teams than just birdspam to be played. If we just sit here and complain how broken GW is, we won't be able to learn about playstyles that give it a run for its money! I'll be waiting for a PiratePad viability rankings for the Leaders of this OM.

Until we get a viability ranking for this meta, I will not mention BirdSpam in this thread again, unless I've defeated it in a replay.

 

[Ghoul King]

Okay, then they just bring in Will-o-Wisp and watch you flail away at it. Flash Fire may work...If they don't have a Me First user.

Another thing I would like to mention is that I never said that GW can't be walled. It may be tricky, but it CAN be walled (proof: this). The real problem is that it kills balance, forcing you to use Intimidate users/Unaware users to beat it. And all of the counters you have mentioned? What else are they viable against? Special attackers aren't common, but they exist. When Rain and Sun get good users/teams, will those counters be able to do jack against weather? In fact, I might build a weather based GW team, since Talonflame gets Solar Beam! Where are your counters now?

Let's face it; Bird Spam is ridiculously good. It kills 90% of offense (yeah, Lucario/Dragonite teams are exceptions), and 20% of stall doesn't like it either.If something comes along and threatens their current build, they can change one of two moves and give that playstyle a run for its money.

On other, more productive, notes, we need more teams than just birdspam to be played. If we just sit here and complain how broken GW is, we won't be able to learn about playstyles that give it a run for its money! I'll be waiting for a PiratePad viability rankings for the Leaders of this OM.

Until we get a viability ranking for this meta, I will not mention BirdSpam in this thread again, unless I've defeated it in a replay.

... wait, you think a Flashfire user doesn't have a Fire move to hit your Me First abuser with zero fear?

Arcanine also provides Extreme Speed, opening the way for -atespeed/giving it a powerful offensive tool, and Close Combat and Fire moves are actually good coverage for -atespeed. For that matter, Extreme Speed punishes Me First attempts.

I have no idea how you think Special weather-based Talonflame is any kind of answer to Flashfire teams. They all have a Fire type for sure, and frankly Heatran is a pretty obvious teammate in general for Flashfire teams, and utterly laughs at Talonflame's entire Special movepool.

Here's an Arcanine team vs a Talonflame team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338300990

Aggron and Heatran are beyond any Talonflame member's ability to do jack to. The other teammates are barely relevant.

It's not a gimmick team only effective at fighting Talonflame, either. In fact, only Aggron was specifically put on the team as a Talonflame stop -Heatran's functionality in that regard is just a bonus.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338302550

Here we have it against a Sableye stall team. I never even bring out my Goodra, and make some iffy plays, among other points getting Pangoro KOed completely unnecessarily. Even taking into account how strongly luck favored me throughout the match, it's not like this was a case where I would've for-sure lost if luck hadn't been on my side or something, and Sableye teams have some excellent tools available to them, among other things Metal Burst Chansey.

---

The terror that is Clefable!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338317492

Here's Clefable with Belly Drum Mega Metagross utterly stomping my team. Yeah, Clefable is scary-good as a Leader.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338319436

Rematch. This time I burn Mega Metagross on the Belly Drum turn. It helps, but the kills it grabs before finally going down still goes a long way toward deciding the match.

Clefable is a really good Leader.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

... wait, you think a Flashfire user doesn't have a Fire move to hit your Me First abuser with zero fear?

Arcanine also provides Extreme Speed, opening the way for -atespeed/giving it a powerful offensive tool, and Close Combat and Fire moves are actually good coverage for -atespeed. For that matter, Extreme Speed punishes Me First attempts.

I have no idea how you think Special weather-based Talonflame is any kind of answer to Flashfire teams. They all have a Fire type for sure, and frankly Heatran is a pretty obvious teammate in general for Flashfire teams, and utterly laughs at Talonflame's entire Special movepool.

Here's an Arcanine team vs a Talonflame team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338300990

Aggron and Heatran are beyond any Talonflame member's ability to do jack to. The other teammates are barely relevant.

It's not a gimmick team only effective at fighting Talonflame, either. In fact, only Aggron was specifically put on the team as a Talonflame stop -Heatran's functionality in that regard is just a bonus.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338302550

Here we have it against a Sableye stall team. I never even bring out my Goodra, and make some iffy plays, among other points getting Pangoro KOed completely unnecessarily. Even taking into account how strongly luck favored me throughout the match, it's not like this was a case where I would've for-sure lost if luck hadn't been on my side or something, and Sableye teams have some excellent tools available to them, among other things Metal Burst Chansey.

---

The terror that is Clefable!

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338317492

Here's Clefable with Belly Drum Mega Metagross utterly stomping my team. Yeah, Clefable is scary-good as a Leader.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338319436

Rematch. This time I burn Mega Metagross on the Belly Drum turn. It helps, but the kills it grabs before finally going down still goes a long way toward deciding the match.

Clefable is a really good Leader.

You don't even need flash fire- unaware works too. Here's an example-

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338341636
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 214-253 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery- the strongest non uber fire attacker. Feel free to moonlight/wishtect that off. Really, the only way talonflame teams could break through are megados (lol) or multiple mons with taunt+lo flare blitz, which even so falls pray to ice beam. I suppose you can do natural gift if you feel desperate, but it really isn't worth it.
You could also theoretically use sunny day or metronome, but thats really, really dumb.

Clefable teams have great abilities, wide movepools, and nice options. Really, if we rate on leaders its easily a+

 

[sin(pi)]

GW teams should probably be carrying at least one Natural Gift [Ground/Fighting/Water|Grass] (water and grass are essentially the same) to get around common counters ie Rock types. Rhydon is no longer an acceptable check to Grass/Water-type Natural Gift, Ground Gift nails Heatran and Aggron, while Fighting ruins Aggron and Ttar.
The fact that this option exists (and that it beats more or less every "counter" except recovery Regirock) pushes GW over the top imo.

 

[G-Luke]

Gale Wings is really powerful but it has crap loads of problems. EXTREMELY weak to hazards and no way of removal, walled by common threats and such and Talinflame's overall limited movepool. But keep up the discussion.

 

[Maleovex]

Also, aggron and heatran get destroyed by EQ, which Lando-T should ALWAYS be carrying

 

[Stocke]

Also, aggron and heatran get destroyed by EQ, which Lando-T should ALWAYS be carrying

except Lando-T on a Talonflame team won't be able to use Earthquake because Talonflame doesn't get it

 

[Maleovex]

except Lando-T on a Talonflame team won't be able to use Earthquake because Talonflame doesn't get it

That's the biggest derp I've EVER had, I'd say

 

[Stocke]

That's the biggest derp I've EVER had, I'd say

no worries, easy mistake to make if you're not used to the rules of this meta

Landorus-T on a Talonflame team can still run Natural Gift with an Apicot Berry for a pseudo-Earthquake, but that restricts its item selection quite a bit and since it can only be used once I can't say I'd recommend it. Probably best to just setup as many Swords Dances as possible and do what you can from there.

 

[Gurkenbrot]

You don't even need flash fire- unaware works too. Here's an example-

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338341636
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 214-253 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery- the strongest non uber fire attacker. Feel free to moonlight/wishtect that off. Really, the only way talonflame teams could break through are megados (lol) or multiple mons with taunt+lo flare blitz, which even so falls pray to ice beam. I suppose you can do natural gift if you feel desperate, but it really isn't worth it.
You could also theoretically use sunny day or metronome, but thats really, really dumb.

Clefable teams have great abilities, wide movepools, and nice options. Really, if we rate on leaders its easily a+

Keep in mind that Talonflame can learn some special moves.You could always run special mons. Heatran or Molteres might fit. Molteres is faster and gets priority STAB, Heatran is immune to poison.

252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 238-281 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 348-411 (90.1 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 243-289 (62.9 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Heatran Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 359-426 (93 - 110.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

 

[Ghoul King]

Gale Wings is really powerful but it has crap loads of problems. EXTREMELY weak to hazards and no way of removal, walled by common threats and such and Talinflame's overall limited movepool. But keep up the discussion.

... priority Defog is unable to remove hazards now?

Keep in mind that Talonflame can learn some special moves.You could always run special mons. Heatran or Molteres might fit. Molteres is faster and gets priority STAB, Heatran is immune to poison.

252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 238-281 (61.6 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 348-411 (90.1 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 243-289 (62.9 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Heatran Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 359-426 (93 - 110.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

It basically has some Fire moves plus Solar Beam, not counting Hidden Power. There's probably uses for its Special movepool -help it break through Physical walls, for one- but not a lot of benefit.

Charizard probably makes more sense than Moltres. For one thing, if you're going the Special route anyway, you might as well run it as Mega Charizard Y as a wallbreaker, at which point it hits way harder than Moltres. Moltres is only really better if you're going to use it as a Physical Gale Wings with backup Fire Blast to punch through certain Physical walls.

GW teams should probably be carrying at least one Natural Gift [Ground/Fighting/Water|Grass] (water and grass are essentially the same) to get around common counters ie Rock types. Rhydon is no longer an acceptable check to Grass/Water-type Natural Gift, Ground Gift nails Heatran and Aggron, while Fighting ruins Aggron and Ttar.
The fact that this option exists (and that it beats more or less every "counter" except recovery Regirock) pushes GW over the top imo.

You only get one shot at Natural Gift, and if you botch it that's it, you're done. To be able to cover all the possible walls of relevance you need multiple team members all spending their item slot and a moveslot on this, and the hard stops to Gale Wings are so effective at walling the entire team the opposition can potentially be overly cautious -you bring in your Fighting Natural Gifter on Flashfire Aggron, they switch out just in case. If you're actually something else, they may well have still scouted out the item (eg if it's Band, they can tell) and just bring Aggron back in. The entire rest of the team can die and Flashfire Aggron (Or whatever) still wins from 6-0 if any Natural Gifters of relevance have been removed.

I view Natural Gift as keeping Gale Wings competitive, instead of having to fear being rendered doomed in various matchups.

You don't even need flash fire- unaware works too. Here's an example-

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-338341636
252 Atk Choice Band Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 214-253 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery- the strongest non uber fire attacker. Feel free to moonlight/wishtect that off. Really, the only way talonflame teams could break through are megados (lol) or multiple mons with taunt+lo flare blitz, which even so falls pray to ice beam. I suppose you can do natural gift if you feel desperate, but it really isn't worth it.
You could also theoretically use sunny day or metronome, but thats really, really dumb.

Clefable teams have great abilities, wide movepools, and nice options. Really, if we rate on leaders its easily a+

Metronome? Talonflame doesn't get Metronome.

But yeah, Unaware Heatran is a huge problem for Talonflame too, and Clefable is an amazing donor and Swoobat is a fairly good donor and Quagsire is probably a very good donor in all honesty (It's surprising how wide its Physical and Special movepools actually are) so Unaware is absolutely meta-relevant -if you can't fight past Unaware you're probably going to struggle to be meta-relevant.

 

[Martin]

... priority Defog is unable to remove hazards now?

Talon doesn't get defog...

 

[Ghoul King]

Then we have an incorrectly constructed team in a replay, as one of Talonflame's teammates used Defog.

 

[EV]

Pangoro has three great abilities: Iron Fist, Mold Breaker, and Scrappy. Iron Fist can work with those elemental punches, otherwise Scrappy is great for any Fighting and Normal Pokemon. Mold Breaker has a niche for circumventing Magic Bouncers with Parting Shot, among other tools and circumstances I can't really think of at the moment. Anyway, here's the breakdown of its movepool, which is surprisingly deep! (Seriously, Dragon Claw? Surf? Infestation?):

Physical: Superpower, Knock Off, Crunch, Gunk Shot, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Iron Head, Circle Throw, Storm Throw, Foul Play, Body Slam, Sky Uppercut, Drain Punch, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Low Kick, Outrage, Zen Headbutt, Dragon Claw, Rock Slide, Poison Jab, Shadow Claw, X-Scissor, Power-Up Punch
Special: Focus Blast, Dark Pulse, Hyper Voice, Sludge Bomb, Surf, Snarl
Utility: Parting Shot, Taunt, Swords Dance, Bulk Up, Roar, Infestation
Lacks: Hazards, hazard control, healing, cleric, special setup (bar Work Up), most major status



Possible teammates:

Beedrill @ Beedrillite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Gunk Shot
- X-Scissor
- Earthquake

This can go quite a few ways. You don't even have to run Swords Dance, but it will make wallbreaking so much fun. Poison / Bug isn't that great of coverage, so you can always slash something like Superpower, Knock Off, or Fire Punch on there to hit more targets super effectively. Oh and with its great Speed and potential to cause switches Parting Shot is a great idea too.

Terrakion @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Superpower
- Stone Edge
- Fire Punch
- Parting Shot / Knock Off / Storm Throw / Drain Punch

Heh. Terrakion could also work with Iron Fist, but an unblockable Superpower is pretty cool. There are lots of coverage options for it. I prefer Parting Shot on choiced sets to maintain momentum while you scout the opponent's checks/counters to Terrakion.

Keldeo @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf / Choice Specs / Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Focus Blast
- Parting Shot
- Sludge Bomb?

It may not be as potent as other Keldeos or even its standard set, but it's workable for when you need a special attacker on your team.

Hydreigon @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive / Hasty Nature
- Knock Off / Dark Pulse
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Surf / Focus Blast / Parting Shot / Sludge Bomb

Parting Shot on everything! Seriously.

Any could use Scrappy with Hyper Voice and Focus Blast. The other two moves could be Surf and hm, Parting Shot?

There are still a ton of other things I can think of that work on a Pangoro team. Iron Fist Thundurus, Mold Breaker Landorus-T, Scrappy Staraptor, Mega Absol for Magic Bounce support with Knock Off, Gunk Shot, and (gasp!) Parting Shot, or even Prankster Mega Banette. I wonder what that would run?

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Pangoro has three great abilities: Iron Fist, Mold Breaker, and Scrappy. Iron Fist can work with those elemental punches, otherwise Scrappy is great for any Fighting and Normal Pokemon. Mold Breaker has a niche for circumventing Magic Bouncers with Parting Shot, among other tools and circumstances I can't really think of at the moment. Anyway, here's the breakdown of its movepool, which is surprisingly deep! (Seriously, Dragon Claw? Surf? Infestation?):

Physical: Superpower, Knock Off, Crunch, Gunk Shot, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Iron Head, Circle Throw, Storm Throw, Foul Play, Body Slam, Sky Uppercut, Drain Punch, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Low Kick, Outrage, Zen Headbutt, Dragon Claw, Rock Slide, Poison Jab, Shadow Claw, X-Scissor, Power-Up Punch
Special: Focus Blast, Dark Pulse, Hyper Voice, Sludge Bomb, Surf, Snarl
Utility: Parting Shot, Taunt, Swords Dance, Bulk Up, Roar, Infestation
Lacks: Hazards, hazard control, healing, cleric, special setup (bar Work Up), most major status



Possible teammates:

Beedrill @ Beedrillite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Gunk Shot
- X-Scissor
- Earthquake

This can go quite a few ways. You don't even have to run Swords Dance, but it will make wallbreaking so much fun. Poison / Bug isn't that great of coverage, so you can always slash something like Superpower, Knock Off, or Fire Punch on there to hit more targets super effectively. Oh and with its great Speed and potential to cause switches Parting Shot is a great idea too.

Terrakion @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Superpower
- Stone Edge
- Fire Punch
- Parting Shot / Knock Off / Storm Throw / Drain Punch

Heh. Terrakion could also work with Iron Fist, but an unblockable Superpower is pretty cool. There are lots of coverage options for it. I prefer Parting Shot on choiced sets to maintain momentum while you scout the opponent's checks/counters to Terrakion.

Keldeo @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf / Choice Specs / Leftovers
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Focus Blast
- Parting Shot
- Sludge Bomb?

It may not be as potent as other Keldeos or even its standard set, but it's workable for when you need a special attacker on your team.

Hydreigon @ Life Orb / Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive / Hasty Nature
- Knock Off / Dark Pulse
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Surf / Focus Blast / Parting Shot / Sludge Bomb

Parting Shot on everything! Seriously.

Any could use Scrappy with Hyper Voice and Focus Blast. The other two moves could be Surf and hm, Parting Shot?

There are still a ton of other things I can think of that work on a Pangoro team. Iron Fist Thundurus, Mold Breaker Landorus-T, Scrappy Staraptor, Mega Absol for Magic Bounce support with Knock Off, Gunk Shot, and (gasp!) Parting Shot, or even Prankster Mega Banette. I wonder what that would run?

Mostly good physical. For anything else its outclassed, although having mixed options is nice. Mostly the panda is sad it gets 6-0'd by tflame teams, but it does break oped stall very easily.

... priority Defog is unable to remove hazards now?



It basically has some Fire moves plus Solar Beam, not counting Hidden Power. There's probably uses for its Special movepool -help it break through Physical walls, for one- but not a lot of benefit.

Charizard probably makes more sense than Moltres. For one thing, if you're going the Special route anyway, you might as well run it as Mega Charizard Y as a wallbreaker, at which point it hits way harder than Moltres. Moltres is only really better if you're going to use it as a Physical Gale Wings with backup Fire Blast to punch through certain Physical walls.



You only get one shot at Natural Gift, and if you botch it that's it, you're done. To be able to cover all the possible walls of relevance you need multiple team members all spending their item slot and a moveslot on this, and the hard stops to Gale Wings are so effective at walling the entire team the opposition can potentially be overly cautious -you bring in your Fighting Natural Gifter on Flashfire Aggron, they switch out just in case. If you're actually something else, they may well have still scouted out the item (eg if it's Band, they can tell) and just bring Aggron back in. The entire rest of the team can die and Flashfire Aggron (Or whatever) still wins from 6-0 if any Natural Gifters of relevance have been removed.

I view Natural Gift as keeping Gale Wings competitive, instead of having to fear being rendered doomed in various matchups.



Metronome? Talonflame doesn't get Metronome.

But yeah, Unaware Heatran is a huge problem for Talonflame too, and Clefable is an amazing donor and Swoobat is a fairly good donor and Quagsire is probably a very good donor in all honesty (It's surprising how wide its Physical and Special movepools actually are) so Unaware is absolutely meta-relevant -if you can't fight past Unaware you're probably going to struggle to be meta-relevant.

The item metronome
But yes, gale wings natural gift is bad because choice band is much of what makes gale wings good.

Then we have an incorrectly constructed team in a replay, as one of Talonflame's teammates used Defog.

yes.