Metagame Fortemons

hey chief do moves that don't check accuracy not work as abilities?
As far as I'm aware, that is correct. Before I moved to using Secret Power/Tri Attack item on my Porygon-Z, I had it using Shock Wave as an item alongside Zap Cannon and Blizzard. The first couple of games with Shock Wave!Zap-Blizzard my luck was amazing as I hit with every attack, but on my third or forth they started missing.
 
By the way, sorry about this but, I don't know if everyone will agree with you.
That's a good thing. Healthy discussion about what's wrong with the tier is how we avoid bans/clauses that are unneeded, and improve the meta as a whole. If the consensus is that volt/turn itself is the problem then so be it.

I don't think a forte clause really resolves the problem, because pivot teams only really need 1 u-turn, 1 volt switch, and mew to be suffocating.
I don't think limiting teams to a single pivot really resolved the interaction between a pivot and shuffle Mew sets - unless we extend the one pivot rule to pokemon actually running u-turn/volt switch/parting shot (nothing does but consistency), at which point I think we should just ban it - but it would make them mildly less oppressive.
Throughout all of my battles so far Mew has been a huge thorn in my side, but I don't think it's suffocating at all. I only ever felt suffocated by these teams when every mon had either u-turn or dragon tail as a forte. Any less than that it just gets beat down by hazards and contact damage. Mew can't really switch in on a neutral/supereffective hit since every mon in this meta hits like a truck. I don't think Mew could out-recover the damage it takes, especially since it has -6 priority on every move. The only problem I have with dragon tail is the random chance aspect. Sometimes it's really REALLY bad for you, but other times it's really REALLY good.

I suspect a Forte clause will get rather untenable. You can stack Fortes with the same effect but unequal chances (e.g. Nuzzle and Discharge, Steam Eruption and Scald, Seed Flare and Psychic) and Fortes whose effects overlap (e.g. Flare Blitz and Fire Punch, Ice Fang and Iron Head). How are we supposed to handle those: ban them or free them?
I'll admit, I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at. As I understand it, the clause some people want to be put in place is: Every forte move must be unique. This doesn't stop people from using nuzzle as a forte, it stops people from using 2 different mons both having nuzzle as a forte. If you really wanted to, you could have a discharge forte alongside your nuzzle user, but there's little to no point. Same goes for the overlapping effects. You could (theoretically) have every single mon on your team have a 60% chance to flinch using 6 different moves in the forte slot; the only thing this proposed forte clause would do is make that harder to build around. Not to mention you can do all of this right now anyways, except much much easier. Please, correct me if I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.
 
Can we please get Snore fixed? I was hoping to use interesting Set-Up Move + Rest sets on Guts/Quick Feet Pokemon with Snore enabling them, indeed restricting them, to use their attacking moves while asleep. Snore still apparently bestows a 30% Flinch chance onto moves but does not currently bestow its unique sleep 'restriction' effect.

Here are some of my sets anyway:

Conkeldurr @ Snore
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Payback

Throh @ snore
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Bulk Up
- Circle Throw
- Payback

Ursaring @ snore
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Bulk Up
- Body Slam
- Shadow Claw

Ursaring @ snore
Ability: Quick Feet
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rest
- Swords Dance
- Frustration
- Shadow Claw

The idea is that you get a mon with an ability that benefits the Pokemon when sleeping to get the full utility out of Snore based strategies, while Rest ensures that you restore your HP and stay status-'free' but without destroying your momentum in this case.
 
Capture.PNG


I would like to express some concerns in regarding the meta and what I have used to reach the spot I am currently at.


Firstly, what I used to get there

Toxapex @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Baneful Bunker
- Scald
- Haze
- Recover

While Infestation might be the item of choice, Rocky Helmet has proven to be infinitely more useful. Due to the nature of u-turn being a contact move, every time Greninja, Tornadus, or other u-turner comes in they lose 1/6 of their health when they leave, and, in tornadus's case, baneful bunker makes sure they get poisoned, so it is possible to stall out the turn torn switches in, the protect turn, and the rocky helmet damage. I have seen garchomp and ferrothorn try to do what this set does to much less success as neither have regenerator or reliable recovery. This set also works well because knock off is nonexistent due to moves not being able to be knocked off making it mostly pointless. The things to look out for are hazard setters, as toxapex can't do anything about them or pokemon with reliable recovery as toxapex doesn't do enough damage to deal with them. The reason Def is maxed out rather than SpD is because all specail attackers barring zapdos and koko don't do enough damage for it to be a problem, and even if pex did run SpD they would still 2hko without the baneful bunker poison. this leaves u-turners and zeraora, which toxapex takes a little over half from, but because pex can recover and most teams aren't going to pack two pokemon that can 2hko pex easily this isn't a problem.

Latias @ Leftovers/Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

This set is a bit more outlandish, but can snowball very quickly. the only pokemon that beat it are buzzwole and sheer cold araquanid.

252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 186-222 (51 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO

While that may look subpar, so long as latias outspeeds one of them, it can go for another calm mind boost. the physical defense completely walls kartana, buzzwole, zeraora, and victini, allowing you to set up on them.

Now for the concerns:

several teams that I have encountered have been esentially just an OU team with a u-turn/volt switch item user or two or volt-turn teams entirely. The latter can be fixed with a limiter, but the former is what I fear will happen if the latter does. I have found much greater success with using strait OU mons with normal held items, I have seen mega scizors, medichams, heck I use hone claws aerodactyl with eq, edge and fire fang to outspeed and sweep volt-turn teams. The viability of moves as held items is shrinking and I feel that other than pivot attacking, fury cutter is the only other good option, and that is limited to sharpedo, mew, weavile (which I haven't seen in a minute), and kartana. I know that in due time if people start using rocky helmet, knock-off will become more common, which will then make pivoting more popular due to knock-off mostly beating u-turn damage and helmet doesn't even beat volt switch.

TL;DR: I am worried that non-move items will become more viable than move items thus making the metagame OU 2, as I have had great success using non-move item pokemon.
 
View attachment 146300

I would like to express some concerns in regarding the meta and what I have used to reach the spot I am currently at.


Firstly, what I used to get there

Toxapex @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Baneful Bunker
- Scald
- Haze
- Recover

While Infestation might be the item of choice, Rocky Helmet has proven to be infinitely more useful. Due to the nature of u-turn being a contact move, every time Greninja, Tornadus, or other u-turner comes in they lose 1/6 of their health when they leave, and, in tornadus's case, baneful bunker makes sure they get poisoned, so it is possible to stall out the turn torn switches in, the protect turn, and the rocky helmet damage. I have seen garchomp and ferrothorn try to do what this set does to much less success as neither have regenerator or reliable recovery. This set also works well because knock off is nonexistent due to moves not being able to be knocked off making it mostly pointless. The things to look out for are hazard setters, as toxapex can't do anything about them or pokemon with reliable recovery as toxapex doesn't do enough damage to deal with them. The reason Def is maxed out rather than SpD is because all specail attackers barring zapdos and koko don't do enough damage for it to be a problem, and even if pex did run SpD they would still 2hko without the baneful bunker poison. this leaves u-turners and zeraora, which toxapex takes a little over half from, but because pex can recover and most teams aren't going to pack two pokemon that can 2hko pex easily this isn't a problem.

Latias @ Leftovers/Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

This set is a bit more outlandish, but can snowball very quickly. the only pokemon that beat it are buzzwole and sheer cold araquanid.

252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 186-222 (51 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO

While that may look subpar, so long as latias outspeeds one of them, it can go for another calm mind boost. the physical defense completely walls kartana, buzzwole, zeraora, and victini, allowing you to set up on them.

Now for the concerns:

several teams that I have encountered have been essentially just an OU team with a u-turn/volt switch item user or two or volt-turn teams entirely. The latter can be fixed with a limiter, but the former is what I fear will happen if the latter does. I have found much greater success with using strait OU mons with normal held items, I have seen mega scizors, medichams, heck I use hone claws aerodactyl with eq, edge and fire fang to outspeed and sweep volt-turn teams. The viability of moves as held items is shrinking and I feel that other than pivot attacking, fury cutter is the only other good option, and that is limited to sharpedo, mew, weavile (which I haven't seen in a minute), and kartana. I know that in due time if people start using rocky helmet, knock-off will become more common, which will then make pivoting more popular due to knock-off mostly beating u-turn damage and helmet doesn't even beat volt switch.

TL;DR: I am worried that non-move items will become more viable than move items thus making the metagame OU 2, as I have had great success using non-move item pokemon.
This 100%. 4/6 of my team members don't even use move items because there's literally no reason to do so outside of using u-turn or volt switch, which I don't use because I'd be a hypocrite of I did.
 
I've found that Ferrothorn finally gets reliable enough recovery when it uses Giga Drain as the item. IMO, mons that use draining moves as items need to have uninvested Ferrothorn-size offences or above in order to recover enough from them, but there are enough such mons that I believe draining moves are still superior options to Leftovers in Fortemons. (Such mons besides Ferrothorn include Celesteela, Goodra, Reuniclus, and Tapu Lele.)

With that being said, I've found that Icy Wind and other speed lowerers are so lame as Fortes on mons with too many counters and harder checks that I've had success with Z-Crystals instead on Keldeo and Kyurem-B, and I've also found that Clefable is usually better off with Leftovers because it needs the >50% recovery (especially with Protect).

I love Rapid Spin as a Forte on mons that share teams with mons that are 4x weak to Stealth Rock, though.

And, IMO, the best item on Mimikyu is Payback. You get instant Z-move-sized offences at the low cost of going second, and I primarily use Mimikyu as an emergency check, especially against speed boosters.
 
View attachment 146300

I would like to express some concerns in regarding the meta and what I have used to reach the spot I am currently at.


Firstly, what I used to get there

Toxapex @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Baneful Bunker
- Scald
- Haze
- Recover

While Infestation might be the item of choice, Rocky Helmet has proven to be infinitely more useful. Due to the nature of u-turn being a contact move, every time Greninja, Tornadus, or other u-turner comes in they lose 1/6 of their health when they leave, and, in tornadus's case, baneful bunker makes sure they get poisoned, so it is possible to stall out the turn torn switches in, the protect turn, and the rocky helmet damage. I have seen garchomp and ferrothorn try to do what this set does to much less success as neither have regenerator or reliable recovery. This set also works well because knock off is nonexistent due to moves not being able to be knocked off making it mostly pointless. The things to look out for are hazard setters, as toxapex can't do anything about them or pokemon with reliable recovery as toxapex doesn't do enough damage to deal with them. The reason Def is maxed out rather than SpD is because all specail attackers barring zapdos and koko don't do enough damage for it to be a problem, and even if pex did run SpD they would still 2hko without the baneful bunker poison. this leaves u-turners and zeraora, which toxapex takes a little over half from, but because pex can recover and most teams aren't going to pack two pokemon that can 2hko pex easily this isn't a problem.

Latias @ Leftovers/Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

This set is a bit more outlandish, but can snowball very quickly. the only pokemon that beat it are buzzwole and sheer cold araquanid.

252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 186-222 (51 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO

While that may look subpar, so long as latias outspeeds one of them, it can go for another calm mind boost. the physical defense completely walls kartana, buzzwole, zeraora, and victini, allowing you to set up on them.

Now for the concerns:

several teams that I have encountered have been esentially just an OU team with a u-turn/volt switch item user or two or volt-turn teams entirely. The latter can be fixed with a limiter, but the former is what I fear will happen if the latter does. I have found much greater success with using strait OU mons with normal held items, I have seen mega scizors, medichams, heck I use hone claws aerodactyl with eq, edge and fire fang to outspeed and sweep volt-turn teams. The viability of moves as held items is shrinking and I feel that other than pivot attacking, fury cutter is the only other good option, and that is limited to sharpedo, mew, weavile (which I haven't seen in a minute), and kartana. I know that in due time if people start using rocky helmet, knock-off will become more common, which will then make pivoting more popular due to knock-off mostly beating u-turn damage and helmet doesn't even beat volt switch.

TL;DR: I am worried that non-move items will become more viable than move items thus making the metagame OU 2, as I have had great success using non-move item pokemon.
Sheer cold araqnuid? Do ohko moves work as fortes? I've tried guilliotine kartana and it fails.
 
I did say sheer cold by accident, I meant frost breath.

I forgot what pokemon i meant to put over buzzwole (I think mega medi) but my thought process at the time was "oh yeah, that fighting type" completely forgetting that buzzwole was bug type. I was also tired when I wrote that lol.
 
How does Acrobatics work?
It basically doesn't if you hold a move as an item. Think of itemized moves as Z-Crystals. (The simulator even claims opposing itemized moves are Ultranecrozium Z, probably to justifiably hide which one your opponent is using because you similarly don't know until it's too late.)
 

Snaquaza

KACAW
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Alright after a lot of thinking, requests, discussion and everything, I (honestly, we) have decided to add the Forte Clause. This means that no one move may be ran in the Item slot by more than one Pokemon per team. No moves are grouped together (not even Volt Switch and U-turn). We still hopes that this will go against the overcentralisation and allows for more creativity to happen.

Meanwhile, more Forte options should open up soon!
 
Why would we get rid of lele? cause its common?
Things are not banned because of being common (just look at landorus in ou or scizor in uu)
 
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I would like to point out the double standard between fury cutter and echoed voice. Both moves increase in power up to a maximum amount when used on consecutive turns. Fury cutter works as a forte as it says on the tin, however echoed voice does not. Exhibit A: Echoed voice Drampa failing to have its forte function: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7fortemons-823429347
I trust with all the discussions on fury cutter in this thread that I don’t need to provide an example of that one.
 
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Komala @ Facade
Ability: Comatose
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Wood Hammer
- Return
- U-turn
not sure if this has been discussed yet, but komala's ability of always being asleep in conjunction with facade makes it a super strong attacker
 

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