Metagame Fortemons

Turn 11: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7fortemons-833028603

The example at the top of the thread explicitly says that
an itemized Scald paired with Body Slam would have a 30% chance of burning, 30% chance of paralysis, and would be 85BP normal type physical attack, that makes no contact.
Yet in the battle linked above, my crunch does make contact, triggering my opponent’s Mummy ability, despite having an itemized giga drain, which does not make contact.
 
Turn 11: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7fortemons-833028603

The example at the top of the thread explicitly says that


Yet in the battle linked above, my crunch does make contact, triggering my opponent’s Mummy ability, despite having an itemized giga drain, which does not make contact.
Forte effects are additive, so you can add the contact effect to non-contact moves but you can't take it away.
OP should probably be updated with that.
 
Can we do something about Fury Cutter? Currently it doubles the power whenever you attack consecutively, even if you aren't using the same move twice in a row. Besides being kinda broken it doesn't really seem to work intuitively to how the move's original mechanics work, which would only double power when you're using the SAME move consecutively and reset if you switch moves.
 
Can we do something about Fury Cutter? Currently it doubles the power whenever you attack consecutively, even if you aren't using the same move twice in a row. Besides being kinda broken it doesn't really seem to work intuitively to how the move's original mechanics work, which would only double power when you're using the SAME move consecutively and reset if you switch moves.
It's probably due to the engine. Y'know, like if you use Protect then Detect, it'll still use the same counter. There's no other move like Fury Cutter, and because of that, the code probably doesn't limit itself.
 
I still need help with the viability rankings! If you think a Pokèmon should be added, please just reply to the (updated) VR rankings (Page 12 of the Fortemons OM) and tell me! You can also request Pokèmon to be raised or lowered in the viability.
I'm not that experienced with VRs (Or the meta) but here we go

B(-?)

Necrozma @ Photon Geyser


With Photon Geyser alone, Necrozma is insanely versatile. To start things off, it gets Mold Breaker basically, since Photon ignores abilities. But the most interesting part is that every move will run off of Necrozma's highest offensive stat. This allows Necrozma to run entirely new sets with much expanded coverage - Special sets get shiny toys like Earthquake or Stone Edge, and physical sets (Friendly reminder: Swords Dance) can get things like Physical Psychic, Heat Wave, Dark Pulse and Psyshock.

What's also great is that while Special Attack is higher than Attack, the opponent will never really know what EVs you are running because the moves' category no longer matters, meaning finding switch ins for Necrozma becomes mindgames.



Could be good, hadn't a clown dominated the meta it's speed been so low[/QUOTE]


B+
Latias-Mega @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt


Being a Mega, Latias obviously doesn't benefit from the meta's mechanics, but instead it's shaped around taking hits. It's one of the few mons who can reliably switch in against Hydro Cannon from Greninja, V-Create, Blast Burn Infernape, doesn't fear Zeraora as much and can even take Shadow Ball from a +1 Blacephalon, and even survives Fleur Cannon at full HP. What this set exploits is Pivot's innability to consistently deal damage over two consecutive turns, since the foe will switch out, allowing you to Calm Mind up, and just start to snowball from there. The lack of Choice Specs and Life Orb for the most part also benefits Latias, as in general Specs and Life Orb users who would otherwise threaten Latias now can be dealt with due to Calm Mind. However, it gets worn down by Toxic, and has trouble with Heatran & Blacephalon. Regardless, I think the ability to safely switch in on meta-relevant mons should be worth noting
 
zeraora needs to be s ranking
it's very fast, hits hard and the coverage moves with volt switch are op
pair it up with u-turn scizor and your opponent can't hit these 2 pokemon
 
Now this could be the dumbest thing people have ever head, or something legitimately smart (probably the 1st one), but I've found a somewhat good way to kill Zeraora and some others with Garchomp.
Garchump (Garchomp) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Outrage
- Fire Fang
Earthquake destroys Zeraora, and fire fang can be useful for stuff like Ferrothorn and Scizor, although it does mean you'll have to switch into something else, take a hit and switch back in and take more hits. Idk if it's better to run fire blast over fire fang, but either way fire is good coverage. The only issue is if your opponent has heatran since you'll need to do some predictions as I've seen. Not sure how good this set/idea actually is, but it's been really useful for getting Zeraora off my back. This is my first time ever sharing a set I've been using on the forums btw.

Also I'm still in the boat of U-Turn and Volt-Switch getting some kind of nerf. Dealing with Victini, Zeraora, and Greninja all spamming powerful moves all at the same time with no downsides gets annoying really quick.

Edit: And now people are using garchomp counters and my metagame experience is thus again ruined. Great.
 
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I definitely see the value of Zeraora as a pivot, but in my personal opinion, his potential is being GREATLY diminished when put into that role. While testing out some sets, I found a specific usage of Zeraora that greatly outstrips any value I've seen from the other pivots.

Zeraora @ drainpunch
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Fire Punch
- Bulk Up
- Close Combat

Don't underestimate what Bulk Up can do for Zeraora, it lets it take some serious physical blows and powers up its attacks greatly. A boosted Plasma Fists from Zeraora can tear through Celesteela, Toxapex, Tapu Lele, Blacephalon, and other common threats in the tier. Close Combat lets you rip through others like Mamoswine, while Fire Punch allows you to more easily cut through Ferrothorn, Kartana, etc., while also acting as a good option for taking out foe Zeraoras without lowering your defense to make yourself more succeptable. It also outspeeds basically everything short of Accelgor, and even has enough bulk with the Bulk Up to survive some otherwise dangerous moves, such as unfriendly Earthquakes.

It makes a good pivot, but it makes a much better sweeper
 
Glaceon @ Ice Shard
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 Hp / 4 SpD / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Hail
- Shadow Ball
- Signal Beam

Do not underestimate a Glaceon that always moves first. A base 130 SpA with boosted hail evasion and coverage moves, this thing is a major underdog for this om.
 
Goodra @ Body Slam/Leftovers
Ability: Gooey
EVs: 248 HP / 128 Atk / 124 Def / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rest
- Power Whip
- Toxic

If you encounter a non-boosted Blacephalon and Serperior or a Greninja, switch in for this guy. Blacephalon's moves are now Contact, with Gooey, Blacephalon's Speed will be increased by 1, only countered with Gooey. You can Blacephalon by using Earthquake.
Now for Greninja's case, a Hydro Cannon can't OHKO Goodra, and can hit it back with Power Whip.
Goodra can wall Serperior too, and can cripple it with Toxic. However, if Serperior gets boosted, it can counter Goodra with Dragon Pulse.

252 SpA Greninja Hydro Cannon vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Goodra: 72-86 (18.7 - 22.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Greninja Hydro Cannon vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Goodra: 72-86 (18.7 - 22.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Blacephalon Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Goodra: 102-121 (26.6 - 31.5%) -- 31.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Goodra: 70-83 (18.2 - 21.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Goodra: 78-93 (20.3 - 24.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 200 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Goodra: 170-202 (44.3 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
200 SpA Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Goodra: 86-102 (22.4 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

-Latios-

PLOT ARMOR INTENSIFIES
I definitely see the value of Zeraora as a pivot, but in my personal opinion, his potential is being GREATLY diminished when put into that role. While testing out some sets, I found a specific usage of Zeraora that greatly outstrips any value I've seen from the other pivots.

Zeraora @ drainpunch
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Fire Punch
- Bulk Up
- Close Combat

Don't underestimate what Bulk Up can do for Zeraora, it lets it take some serious physical blows and powers up its attacks greatly. A boosted Plasma Fists from Zeraora can tear through Celesteela, Toxapex, Tapu Lele, Blacephalon, and other common threats in the tier. Close Combat lets you rip through others like Mamoswine, while Fire Punch allows you to more easily cut through Ferrothorn, Kartana, etc., while also acting as a good option for taking out foe Zeraoras without lowering your defense to make yourself more succeptable. It also outspeeds basically everything short of Accelgor, and even has enough bulk with the Bulk Up to survive some otherwise dangerous moves, such as unfriendly Earthquakes.

It makes a good pivot, but it makes a much better sweeper
Doesn't Pivot Zeraora achieve nearly all of these feats regardless of +1?
Several of the Pokemon you listed (Blacephalon, Toxapex, Celesteela, Kart) wouldn't appreciate an unboosted hit anyways, and Zeraora gets the added benefit of a free switch—which is always valued in case they switch to a check.
 
Though I won't be surprised if Volt Switch gets banned soon, I want to add that Infernape makes an incredible offensive core with Greninja. Fire/Fighting/Ground covers Water/Dark/Ice really well, so I often find myself switching between the two of them, doing a ton of damage as they go. Add in Iron Fist Mach Punch, which provides a priority pivot to get Infernape out safely while wearing down its checks (like Zeraora), and you got an offensive pivot with incredible staying power.

Infernape can also run successful Flame Charge sets, so I would nominate it for at least an A-

Here are the sets I've been using.

Infernape @ uturn
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Blast Burn
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Mach Punch

Greninja @ uturn
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Cannon
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Hyper Beam
 
i did well with this team but it doesn't work at higher ladder

Zeraora @ voltswitch
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Close Combat
- Giga Impact
- Outrage

Scizor @ uturn
Ability: Technician
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Superpower
- Quick Attack

Doublade @ gyroball
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 168 HP / 252 Atk / 88 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Shadow Sneak
- Iron Head
- Rock Smash
- Retaliate

Tentacruel @ acidspray
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 208 HP / 48 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Sludge Wave
- Icy Wind

Serperior @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Giga Drain

Mew @ payback
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Flamethrower
- Aura Sphere
- Psychic
- Earth Power

i need a replacement for serperior but i have no idea what to use
zerora/scizor is really op, the opponent can't touch either of them
gyro ball shadow sneak doublade ohko a good junk of the tier
and tentacruel does well
mew can ohko a lot of things but seems useless against a lot of teams.

i replaced serperior for 50% burn entei and the team can't lose today
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7fortemons-834984009
 
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Under my alt of Requiem952, I have managed to place 28th on the ladder for Fortemons. Here's the team I used.

Capture.PNG

Kartana @ furycutter
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 19 Atk
- Swords Dance
- Sacred Sword
- Night Slash
- Leaf Blade

I saw people talking about Fury Cutter being potentially broken, and while I haven't noticed its effect doubling attacks even when a single one isn't spammed, I never really needed to. Sit this thing down in front of a non-fire, non-fighting physical mon, have it SD once or twice, then proceed to watch the fireworks as it absolutely demolishes the opposing team. It's IVs and nature are to ensure that Beast Boost ends up increasing Speed, turning it into a nigh-unstoppable sweeper when given the chance to score a kill. The only way to handle it after a Beast Boost is a priority Fighting or Fire move, both of which are shut down hard by the next 'mon on the roster.

Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast

Anti Prio. Absolutely a must, when everyone and their mother runs at least one threat to my team that happens to throw around priority like nobody's business. Scarf Lele is a remarkably potent revenge-killer, and with Psychic Terrain can do some pretty serious damage to anything that isn't a dedicated special wall or otherwise immune.

Scizor (M) @ uturn
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Superpower
- Roost

A powerful 'mon with the ability to switch out first OR last? Sign me the hell up. Being able to choose when Scizor switches out by choosing either Bug Bite or BP makes this thing a scary good pivot. Roost can also be replaced with Defog, albeit at the cost of survivability. Superpower destroys Traprans and dents Celes that try to switch in, or to take advantage if Rotom's Discharge-Switch scores a paralysis against the former.

Rotom-Heat @ voltswitch
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Pain Split
- Defog
- Discharge
- Overheat

Primarily acting as support and an answer to those physical threats that Kartana can't sit on, Heatom acts as a secondary pivot as well as my answer to hazards. Pain Split has proven to be a surprisingly effective tool at keeping it alive,

Porygon-Z @ triattack/secretpower
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Tri Attack
- Substitute

I haven't yet actually tried using Tri Attack as Porygon-Z's item, but I am wondering if that would give all its moves a 20% chance of proccing Burn/Freeze/Para and give Tri Attack two shots at that 20%. Regardless, Secret Power happens to work really well here too, since that 30% paralysis really gives me a fun time. It's not necessarily as 'necessary' as the others, but I find that Pory-Z is a good mixup option, and BoltBeam makes it even more... if not unpredictable, then 'concerning'.

Goodra @ absorb
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
- Thunderbolt
- Draco Meteor

I really have to say, there is something beautiful in sending this thing out and watching it clean house. The only problem that this monster faces in this meta are offensive fairy-types (read: Lele), Protect Traprans, and most physical 'mons. Granted, I have multiple answers to each in Timidtana and Heatom, so that's more or less mitigated. However, being able to fire off powerful attacks with that clean 350 SpA, and drain half the damage done, means that you basically need to send out a physical 'mon or Lele to keep Goodra from continuing its rampage. Combine that with a grass immunity in Sap Sipper (a middle finger to Celesteelas and the occasional Bulu), and you cannot sleep on this thing. It might not have the same way of handling Flame Charge mons like Blacephalon, but as far as I'm aware Charge-cephalon either needs a crit or Shadow Ball's 20% SpD drop to get rid of this thing before Goodra can get rid of it in return. Fear the slime dragon. Rawr.
 

-Latios-

PLOT ARMOR INTENSIFIES

Stakataka @ gyroball
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Lonely Nature
IVs: 15 Def / 0 Spe
- Iron Head
- Smack Down
- Stomping Tantrum
- Trick Room

Stakataka is such a beast. In my experience, it's best used on full on TR builds. Stakataka has such solid synergy with Pokemon such as Marowak-Alola and Crawdaunt, as they help wear down each others checks. This thing eats Pokemon like [Gyro Ball] Doublade alive even without Trick Room support. Gyro Ball affects the damage of Stakataka's moves based on its speed. It has an abysmal speed stat, which allows practically all of its moves to skyrocket to high power without drawbacks. Stomping Tantrum is used over Earthquake, as it has an affect that could potentially come into play. It basically has no flaws in comparison to EQ regardless. Smack Down allows something like Skarmory to still be targeted by Stomping Tantrum, and Iron Head provides a potential flinch chance.
1542155470611.png

Under Trick Room, Stakataka OHKOs a vast majority of the metagame. This is especially since people love just using frail, speedy, offensive Pokemon such as Greninja or Zeraora that cannot avoid Stakataka's meaty hits. A-, its current mark, is definitely a great spot for it, since it's so reliant on Trick Room to perform. (Just trying to say this is NO nomination or anything) I just want to bring up Stakataka, as it's something that I don't see on many builds whatsoever right now.
 
next thing on that needs to be in the banlist fury cutter
this thing just completely wipes out anything not ready for it
i got 6-0'd by a crawdaunt
 
First and foremost, I'd like to say that I love the concept of this OM. It's got incredible potential for teambuilding/setbuilding and let's a lot of unique mons shine. I've currently made about 12 unique teams, and between all of my accounts, I'd say that I've played just over 150 games. With that being said, one team archetype beats almost every single team I've created, even when I set out to counter it specifically; and that team would be volt/turn.

Facing off against a volt/turn team is just not fun at all. As of right now, you can run 4 - 6 U-turn/volt switch users and trap your opponent in an endless cycle of bologna. Yes, there are mons that "counter" this strategy (namely leftovers/helmet Ferrothorn and scarf/helmet Garchomp), but that seems to be it. Both of these mons can either be worn down easily, chunked by an unexpected coverage move (HP ice/fire), or switched out on anyways due to priority. Hazards are another good way to try and combat this strategy, but lot of common volt/turn users conveniently also get defog. Not to mention pokemon like Tsareena, Forretress, and Komala get rapid spin + free slow switch out anyways. Other viable (op?) volt/turn mons that can be used are Rotom (heat mostly, but all of them are usable), Scizor, Zeraora, Greninja, Magearna, Infernape, Staraptor, Victini, Koko, Torn-T, and Lando-T. Mix and match 4 - 6 of these bad boys and you've got yourself a team.

Priority users can break the chain, but that requires a safe switch in & your opponent not having Tsar/Lele or their own priority U-turn. Payback/similar moves can land you a cheeky KO on a switch, but that relies heavily on both getting a safe switch in and not being KO'ed yourself. If you do manage to live the hit, your opponent sacks their least useful mon and the cycle continues, except this time without your payback user. Like I said above, rough skin/iron barbs can wear down a volt/turn team, but they're very vulnerable without solid recovery, switching them in is always a risk due to coverage, and priority volt/turn is a thing that exists. Hazards seem to be the only true reliable way to chunk a volt/turn team down, but as I also mentioned above, it's not easy to get hazards to stick.

Even if this isn't considered 'OP', it's still incredibly oppressive and just not fun to play against. I don't believe it's volt/turn that's overpowered; more so the fact that you can run any amount of volt/turners and always have perfect coverage/type advantage. I believe that establishing an item clause (Every attack in an item slot must be unique) would be highly beneficial to the tier as a whole. This limits volt/turn down to 2 mons, making the aforementioned checks (ferro/chomp/payback/priority/etc.) much more viable, and nerfs volt/turn without taking away it's uniqueness from the metagame. I will admit, I haven't put much effort into thinking how this would affect the rest of the metagame, so feel free to respond and share some reasons why it would be a bad idea to implement this.
 
I believe that establishing an item clause (Every attack in an item slot must be unique) would be highly beneficial to the tier as a whole.
HMMMMMM
Can we just get a Forte clause already? Only one type of a Forte per team (Only one U-Turn, Flame Charge, Shadow Ball, etc.).
By the way, sorry about this but, I don't know if everyone will agree with you.
I suspect a Forte clause will get rather untenable. You can stack Fortes with the same effect but unequal chances (e.g. Nuzzle and Discharge, Steam Eruption and Scald, Seed Flare and Psychic) and Fortes whose effects overlap (e.g. Flare Blitz and Fire Punch, Ice Fang and Iron Head). How are we supposed to handle those: ban them or free them?
I don't think a forte clause really resolves the problem, because pivot teams only really need 1 u-turn, 1 volt switch, and mew to be suffocating.
I don't think limiting teams to a single pivot really resolved the interaction between a pivot and shuffle Mew sets - unless we extend the one pivot rule to pokemon actually running u-turn/volt switch/parting shot (nothing does but consistency), at which point I think we should just ban it - but it would make them mildly less oppressive.
And check the likes on this one. Even the leader doesn't like the idea.
I'm not saying give up. I'm saying we need more people to agree with us. I think you're finally breaking point.
You, someone way more experienced than me in the tier, was able to create many teams and say for a fact that one archetype breaks all of them.
I don't know if this tier needs anymore proof that it needs a Move Item Clause.
 
I would like to show this two fellows. Frost Breath as item is insane, even for Alolatails, who is not even close to be the stronger special attacker in the metagame.

Beartic with his speed doubled under hail and a 130 base atk always criting can really sweep an entire team. I used to run power up punch, but he doesn't have much time to setup, as hail stays only for 4 turns, from the moment he switches in and he is something frail. So, or he strikes hard or he dies.

Beartic @ frostbreath
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Icicle Crash
- Stone Edge
- Superpower

Ninetales-Alola @ frostbreath
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Blizzard
- Moonblast
- Hidden Power [Ground] (I use this to catch fire types, but this is a filler slot)
 

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