Metagame Fortemons

This was the Zamazenta-C set I was using pre-ban. I remember Dragapult not really checking this set unless it has Will-O-Wisp, but this set being stuck between dealing with Kilowattrel/Iron Moth/Volcarona/Zapdos and dealing with Water/Fighting-types and Toxapex. This set also can end up with trouble with bulky waters period (maybe Iron Defense sets don't?). Outspeeding and OHKOing Ninetales-A before it can set up Aurora Veil, +1/+1 Enamorus-I, Darkrai, Meowscarada, and more was pretty nice.

:SV/Zamazenta-Crowned:
Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Stone Edge / Wild Charge
- Behemoth Bash

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now for the new unban - Regieleki!

I recommend EVs along the line of this set:

:SV/Regieleki:
Regieleki @ Rapid Spin / Thunder Cage
Ability: Transistor
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 32 Atk / 128 Def / 252 SpA / 96 Spe
Naive / Timid Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Volt Switch
- Tera Blast / Body Slam / Acrobatics / Thunder Wave / Rapid Spin
- Thunderbolt / Electro Ball

A Speed-boosting nature and 96 Speed EVs are needed to outspeed all Deoxys-S. 128 Defense EVs are needed to survive Ceaseless Edge Forte Samurott-H's Sucker Punch after 2 layers of Spikes (note that you cannot lower the chance that move OHKOes after 3 layers of Spikes to 0% without chopping into Special Attack or Speed EVs):

252 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge Forte Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Regieleki: 211-250 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes
 
out of curiosity, if you have hex as a forte and use venoshock on a poisoned pokemon, does it do x4 damage? Probably not any good, I'm just envisioning a really stupid toxapex set
 
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...Stl_pdZ1OsFQSja3yMq4fujbmuEwtTQ/viewanalytics

Hello all, you may now view the results of the survey. Let me start by prefacing just because we had not voted on something on the previous ban slate, or we did not end up taking any action on something doesn't mean we can't revisit and potentially tier it again. The survey will still be used to steer any potential tiering actions we may take the remainder of this month, as well as tiering actions next month.
 
Zenpoppa said:
Is there a reason U-Turn is allows a forte Flip Turn and Volt Switch are banned?
Click to expand...
U-Turn is the most common pivot move (which allows teambuilding creativity) and the other pivot moves could easily be abused with U-Turn to create a cycle of constantly dealing damage with fast attackers and switching out.
 
ponchlake said:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...Stl_pdZ1OsFQSja3yMq4fujbmuEwtTQ/viewanalytics

Hello all, you may now view the results of the survey. Let me start by prefacing just because we had not voted on something on the previous ban slate, or we did not end up taking any action on something doesn't mean we can't revisit and potentially tier it again. The survey will still be used to steer any potential tiering actions we may take the remainder of this month, as well as tiering actions next month.
Click to expand...
I am going to expand on my idea of a complex ban (or restriction? idk) of U-Turn that I said in the surveybecause I really do not want to see Lokix lose its viability from a U-Turn restriction.

Out of the four main viable U-Turn Pokemon (Dragapult, Infernape, Lokix, Greninja pre-ban), only Lokix used a move that did not have some sort of drawback (Cinderace also exists but it is literally a worse Lokix and there is no reason to use it over Infernape). Blast Burn and Hydro Cannon have a recharge turn, Draco Meteor lowers Special Attack, etc. First Impression, on the other hand, has a precondition, not a drawback. Given how Lokix is also a physical attacker, it faces a myriad of walls, Flame Body, 4x resist Pokemon, and other problems mentioned in #444. Compare this to the special U-Turners, who use much higher BP for U-Turning so they deal higher damage to special walls and have fewer reliable counters due to their high speed.

Clearly, these powerful moves with drawbacks being paired with with U-Turn are the issue, not U-Turn itself. If Greninja used Surf, Dragapult used Dragon Pulse, and Infernape used Flamethrower, I heavily doubt many would be asking for a restriction on U-Turn.

Because of these reasons, I would like to propose a complex ban/restriction: U-Turn is unable to be held in the item slot if the Pokemon also has a move with a drawback in its moveset.
 
InkyDarkBird said:
Because of these reasons, I would like to propose a complex ban/restriction: U-Turn is unable to be held in the item slot if the Pokemon also has a move with a drawback in its moveset.
Click to expand...

Id rather ban the abusers not counting lokix as one of the strong -to the point of beeing disruptive for the meta- ones.
Anyways i find your analysis accurated :)
 
Imw0rstadP0keM0n said:
welp, pecharunt is legal in OU now.

Complex ban is a solid no.

Either u-turn itself is too polarizing, or these moves are too polarizing.
Click to expand...
The issue is, the only time Draco Meteor and Hydro Cannon and Blast Burn are really used is when they are paired with U-Turn, so banning them doesn't make sense because they are terrible moves. U-Turn itself also doesn't deserve to be restricted either as said in #456 due to the existence of Lokix, which is a viable physical U-Turn user using a move without a major drawback and it is not broken.

JangMoo-Moo said:
Id rather ban the abusers not counting lokix as one of the strong -to the point of beeing disruptive for the meta- ones.
Anyways i find your analysis accurated :)
Click to expand...
I am worried that there will be too many Pokemon that could be potentially banned for this one specific combination due to people seeking out substitutes to the banned U-Turn Pokemon (Greninja, Inteleon, Infernape, Zoroark-Hisui, Cyclizar, Dragapult, Noivern).
Inteleon replaces Greninja, Noivern replaces Dragapult, etc.
Note that Hyper Beam also works with this combination.

The Fortemons council clearly does not want this, as said by ponchlake:
"Now can things change? Sure. But like I said though, we're not going to preemptively ban a whole move over 2 mons. If we ban Iron Treads and Archuladon, and more problematic users pop up, we'd simply ban those as well. If enough users come out to be problematic? Then we'll hit Body Press and unban the abusers."
 
kokorikopi said:
Confirming this is not implemented.
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My bad for spreading misinformation, I was only partially correct and the post should be updated to reflect this. If the previously used move is not copyable with Copycat or if the user of the move was holding such a move, Copycat cannot call it regardless of whether the user is holding an move such as Circle Throw. However, this also means that you cannot chain together Copycats like you previously could, which is why it is currently manageable.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2033773574
 
kokorikopi said:
Confirming this is not implemented.
Click to expand...
Turns out the truth is more complicated. Investigated today and managed to make this game happen:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2033773352

Note that mnomebaxfortop10 is one of my suspect test alts I still remember the credentials for.

Note that Copycat fails when Circle Throw Forte Riolu is trying to reproduce one of its own moves but passes and phazes when reproducing an opposing move. IMO, Circle Throw Forte Riolu is too inconsistent to do much, but I'm not quite sure how the best way to handle this is.

EDIT: Got ninja'd.
 
InkyDarkBird said:
I am going to expand on my idea of a complex ban (or restriction? idk) of U-Turn that I said in the surveybecause I really do not want to see Lokix lose its viability from a U-Turn restriction.

Out of the four main viable U-Turn Pokemon (Dragapult, Infernape, Lokix, Greninja pre-ban), only Lokix used a move that did not have some sort of drawback (Cinderace also exists but it is literally a worse Lokix and there is no reason to use it over Infernape). Blast Burn and Hydro Cannon have a recharge turn, Draco Meteor lowers Special Attack, etc. First Impression, on the other hand, has a precondition, not a drawback. Given how Lokix is also a physical attacker, it faces a myriad of walls, Flame Body, 4x resist Pokemon, and other problems mentioned in #444. Compare this to the special U-Turners, who use much higher BP for U-Turning so they deal higher damage to special walls and have fewer reliable counters due to their high speed.

Clearly, these powerful moves with drawbacks being paired with with U-Turn are the issue, not U-Turn itself. If Greninja used Surf, Dragapult used Dragon Pulse, and Infernape used Flamethrower, I heavily doubt many would be asking for a restriction on U-Turn.

Because of these reasons, I would like to propose a complex ban/restriction: U-Turn is unable to be held in the item slot if the Pokemon also has a move with a drawback in its moveset.
Click to expand...

First Impression objectively has a pretty clear drawback - only being able to be used on the first turn out. If First Impression could be used willy nilly on any turn that the mon is out, it would pretty be a significantly better move than it is now.

Every move arguably has some kind of drawback given that a "perfect move" does not really exist, which would basically preclude a rule this abstract from ever existing.
 
my boss tiffany said:
First Impression objectively has a pretty clear drawback - only being able to be used on the first turn out. If First Impression could be used willy nilly on any turn that the mon is out, it would pretty be a significantly better move than it is now.

Every move arguably has some kind of drawback given that a "perfect move" does not really exist, which would basically preclude a rule this abstract from ever existing.
Click to expand...
I suppose I should have been more specific. By "drawback", what I really meant was "negative consequence as a result of using the move".
 
I personally think that u-turn should be restricted out of the item slot. Imo being able to switch out with no immunities for essentially free is too good. Flip turn and volt switch both have immunities and are mostly relegated to their types while u-turn isn’t. I propose that we either unrestrict flip turn or volt switch.
 
ZarbyXar said:
I personally think that u-turn should be restricted out of the item slot. Imo being able to switch out with no immunities for essentially free is too good. Flip turn and volt switch both have immunities and are mostly relegated to their types while u-turn isn’t. I propose that we either unrestrict flip turn or volt switch.
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I don't think that will fix the problem. Electrode-Hisui can use Volt Switch Leaf Storm, Regieleki can use Volt Switch and Thunderbolt/Hyper Beam/Thunder, Inteleon can use Flip Turn Hydro Cannon, and Latios and Walking Wake can use Flip Turn Draco Meteor.
 
I've found a very abusive set of phazing while being asleep that immediately requires some sort of action.

Mew @ Dragon Tail
Ability: Synchronize
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Super Fang
- U-turn

Super Fang completely shreds HO and U-Turn allows for easy pivots to other Pokemon.
 
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Here's a kinda fun set I've been messing around with, Archladon at Home

:Kommo-o:
Kommo-o @ bodypress
Ability: Soundproof
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Draco Meteor
- Drain Punch
- Iron Head

Kommo has a surprisingly robust set of defenses (75/125/105) and it's typing gives it a lot of nice resistances that let it get off an Iron Defense for free. It has actual recovery in the form of drain punch unlike Arch so it has an easier time getting full sweeps going. It doesn't have the absurd power of the Stamina + BP combo but it still does it's job well. Soundproof seems like the better of the abilities in a format without spore and the occasional Psychic Noise forte making him a hard counter. Iron Head is in theory a flex slot for whatever you'd like but in practice Iron Head comes up way more than any other option.
 
GeniusMike said:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2034983065-5xtl859iq9fyzmigrg9266pws96sjfvpw Assurance doesn't seem to be working as a Forte currently. Turn two, triple axel's power rises the amount you would expect in normal gameplay without the assurance forte applying for the second hit. The third hit seemed to somehow lower in damage, contrary to what it should with or without the forte.
Click to expand...
Triple Axel's power raising is replaced with Assurance's effect, resulting in a 20/40/40 BP move. The third hit was weaker than the second because there is some RNG involved in the exact damage.
 
flying moose said:
Forgive my ignorance, but Delibird with Present at A???? I've never seen in on the ladder or mentioned on the chat. How does Present work as a Forte and how does that make Delibird so effective in the metagame?
Click to expand...
Present causes a move to have varying base power being either 40, 80 or 120 base power, or 1/4 health to the opponent.
 
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