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Metagame Fortemons
- Thread starter KaenSoul
- Start date
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1...Stl_pdZ1OsFQSja3yMq4fujbmuEwtTQ/viewanalytics
Hello all, you may now view the results of the survey. Let me start by prefacing just because we had not voted on something on the previous ban slate, or we did not end up taking any action on something doesn't mean we can't revisit and potentially tier it again. The survey will still be used to steer any potential tiering actions we may take the remainder of this month, as well as tiering actions next month.
Hello all, you may now view the results of the survey. Let me start by prefacing just because we had not voted on something on the previous ban slate, or we did not end up taking any action on something doesn't mean we can't revisit and potentially tier it again. The survey will still be used to steer any potential tiering actions we may take the remainder of this month, as well as tiering actions next month.
U-Turn is the most common pivot move (which allows teambuilding creativity) and the other pivot moves could easily be abused with U-Turn to create a cycle of constantly dealing damage with fast attackers and switching out.
I am going to expand on my idea of a complex ban (or restriction? idk) of U-Turn that I said in the surveybecause I really do not want to see Lokix lose its viability from a U-Turn restriction.
Out of the four main viable U-Turn Pokemon (Dragapult, Infernape, Lokix, Greninja pre-ban), only Lokix used a move that did not have some sort of drawback (Cinderace also exists but it is literally a worse Lokix and there is no reason to use it over Infernape). Blast Burn and Hydro Cannon have a recharge turn, Draco Meteor lowers Special Attack, etc. First Impression, on the other hand, has a precondition, not a drawback. Given how Lokix is also a physical attacker, it faces a myriad of walls, Flame Body, 4x resist Pokemon, and other problems mentioned in #444. Compare this to the special U-Turners, who use much higher BP for U-Turning so they deal higher damage to special walls and have fewer reliable counters due to their high speed.
Clearly, these powerful moves with drawbacks being paired with with U-Turn are the issue, not U-Turn itself. If Greninja used Surf, Dragapult used Dragon Pulse, and Infernape used Flamethrower, I heavily doubt many would be asking for a restriction on U-Turn.
Because of these reasons, I would like to propose a complex ban/restriction: U-Turn is unable to be held in the item slot if the Pokemon also has a move with a drawback in its moveset.
Id rather ban the abusers not counting lokix as one of the strong -to the point of beeing disruptive for the meta- ones.
Anyways i find your analysis accurated :)
Confirming this is not implemented.
The issue is, the only time Draco Meteor and Hydro Cannon and Blast Burn are really used is when they are paired with U-Turn, so banning them doesn't make sense because they are terrible moves. U-Turn itself also doesn't deserve to be restricted either as said in #456 due to the existence of Lokix, which is a viable physical U-Turn user using a move without a major drawback and it is not broken.
I am worried that there will be too many Pokemon that could be potentially banned for this one specific combination due to people seeking out substitutes to the banned U-Turn Pokemon (Greninja, Inteleon, Infernape, Zoroark-Hisui, Cyclizar, Dragapult, Noivern).
Inteleon replaces Greninja, Noivern replaces Dragapult, etc.
Note that Hyper Beam also works with this combination.
The Fortemons council clearly does not want this, as said by ponchlake:
"Now can things change? Sure. But like I said though, we're not going to preemptively ban a whole move over 2 mons. If we ban Iron Treads and Archuladon, and more problematic users pop up, we'd simply ban those as well. If enough users come out to be problematic? Then we'll hit Body Press and unban the abusers."
My bad for spreading misinformation, I was only partially correct and the post should be updated to reflect this. If the previously used move is not copyable with Copycat or if the user of the move was holding such a move, Copycat cannot call it regardless of whether the user is holding an move such as Circle Throw. However, this also means that you cannot chain together Copycats like you previously could, which is why it is currently manageable.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2033773574
Turns out the truth is more complicated. Investigated today and managed to make this game happen:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2033773352
Note that mnomebaxfortop10 is one of my suspect test alts I still remember the credentials for.
Note that Copycat fails when Circle Throw Forte Riolu is trying to reproduce one of its own moves but passes and phazes when reproducing an opposing move. IMO, Circle Throw Forte Riolu is too inconsistent to do much, but I'm not quite sure how the best way to handle this is.
EDIT: Got ninja'd.
First Impression objectively has a pretty clear drawback - only being able to be used on the first turn out. If First Impression could be used willy nilly on any turn that the mon is out, it would pretty be a significantly better move than it is now.
Every move arguably has some kind of drawback given that a "perfect move" does not really exist, which would basically preclude a rule this abstract from ever existing.
I suppose I should have been more specific. By "drawback", what I really meant was "negative consequence as a result of using the move".
I personally think that u-turn should be restricted out of the item slot. Imo being able to switch out with no immunities for essentially free is too good. Flip turn and volt switch both have immunities and are mostly relegated to their types while u-turn isn’t. I propose that we either unrestrict flip turn or volt switch.
I don't think that will fix the problem. Electrode-Hisui can use Volt Switch Leaf Storm, Regieleki can use Volt Switch and Thunderbolt/Hyper Beam/Thunder, Inteleon can use Flip Turn Hydro Cannon, and Latios and Walking Wake can use Flip Turn Draco Meteor.
it does, using this on pecharunt atm
I've found a very abusive set of phazing while being asleep that immediately requires some sort of action.
Mew @ Dragon Tail
Ability: Synchronize
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Super Fang
- U-turn
Super Fang completely shreds HO and U-Turn allows for easy pivots to other Pokemon.
Mew @ Dragon Tail
Ability: Synchronize
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Super Fang
- U-turn
Super Fang completely shreds HO and U-Turn allows for easy pivots to other Pokemon.
Last edited:
Here's a kinda fun set I've been messing around with, Archladon at Home
Kommo-o @ bodypress
Ability: Soundproof
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Draco Meteor
- Drain Punch
- Iron Head
Kommo has a surprisingly robust set of defenses (75/125/105) and it's typing gives it a lot of nice resistances that let it get off an Iron Defense for free. It has actual recovery in the form of drain punch unlike Arch so it has an easier time getting full sweeps going. It doesn't have the absurd power of the Stamina + BP combo but it still does it's job well. Soundproof seems like the better of the abilities in a format without spore and the occasional Psychic Noise forte making him a hard counter. Iron Head is in theory a flex slot for whatever you'd like but in practice Iron Head comes up way more than any other option.
Kommo-o @ bodypress
Ability: Soundproof
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Draco Meteor
- Drain Punch
- Iron Head
Kommo has a surprisingly robust set of defenses (75/125/105) and it's typing gives it a lot of nice resistances that let it get off an Iron Defense for free. It has actual recovery in the form of drain punch unlike Arch so it has an easier time getting full sweeps going. It doesn't have the absurd power of the Stamina + BP combo but it still does it's job well. Soundproof seems like the better of the abilities in a format without spore and the occasional Psychic Noise forte making him a hard counter. Iron Head is in theory a flex slot for whatever you'd like but in practice Iron Head comes up way more than any other option.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2034983065-5xtl859iq9fyzmigrg9266pws96sjfvpw Assurance doesn't seem to be working as a Forte currently. Turn two, triple axel's power rises the amount you would expect in normal gameplay without the assurance forte applying for the second hit. The third hit seemed to somehow lower in damage, contrary to what it should with or without the forte.
Triple Axel's power raising is replaced with Assurance's effect, resulting in a 20/40/40 BP move. The third hit was weaker than the second because there is some RNG involved in the exact damage.
UPDATED VIABILITY RANKINGS
Hello all, with the help of some members of the community like InkyDarkBird and others in the OM room, we've created an up to date VR. This may be liable to change as we're currently in the middle of the month and may see meta developments.
Hello all, with the help of some members of the community like InkyDarkBird and others in the OM room, we've created an up to date VR. This may be liable to change as we're currently in the middle of the month and may see meta developments.
Forgive my ignorance, but Delibird with Present at A???? I've never seen in on the ladder or mentioned on the chat. How does Present work as a Forte and how does that make Delibird so effective in the metagame?
Present causes a move to have varying base power being either 40, 80 or 120 base power, or 1/4 health to the opponent.
Without a doubt. Some tiering will need to be redone.