How does naughty naughty thief work for this meta? Can you just yoink their item?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame Fortemons
- Thread starter ponchlake
- Start date
ponchlake
cult of personality cult leader
No. You can’t interact with Fortes that way, nor can you Knock Off Fortes. They effectively act as mega stones.
It’s already been implemented. You can start playing again.
Would this set be decent?
Toucannon @ Rock Smash
Ability: Skill Link
Tera Type: Normal
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Blast
- IDK
- IDK
Similar to the previous
set, multi hit shenanigans with a half decent chance to make your attacks stronger mid-attack. Interesting?
Toucannon @ Rock Smash
Ability: Skill Link
Tera Type: Normal
- Bullet Seed
- Rock Blast
- IDK
- IDK
Similar to the previous
set, multi hit shenanigans with a half decent chance to make your attacks stronger mid-attack. Interesting?
I was using Rock Smash SS Urshifu-Rapid. Got way too unlucky tho with 1 proc over 6 games
Iron Crown @ psychicnoise
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Tachyon Cutter
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
I've had good success with this Iron Crown set, and while I am still low ladder this set works pretty well. Psychic Noise Iron Crown completely shuts down any healing strategies like Hatterene or Clefable. It also stops any respective healing like Recover and can stop the blobs, making this a very effective sweeper. Unfortunately 98 speed screws it over, and Volcanora, Enamorus, and the sort can snipe it. A solid mon but not really a top dog.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2026312006-db89trjchffj97drynhtcwl71jph68bpw Turn 16
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2026318173 Turn 4
Heavy Slam seems to be bugged when used with payback as a forte
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2026318173 Turn 4
Heavy Slam seems to be bugged when used with payback as a forte
Last edited:
Sad since the quirks that this set use BOTH got banned, so might as well share my most beloved set ever.
Perrserker @ terablast
Ability: Steely Spirit
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- U-turn
- Double-Edge
- Metal Burst
This does exactly what you think it does. Transforms Fake Out into a Steel type move and powers it up with STAB + Steely Spirit. It was enough to OHKO many many mons and do easily 40-50% to resists. So sad both Fake Out and Tera Blast got banned but honestly.. I get it. That was annoying to play against and even though I didnt see any Perrserkers doing this against me I'm sure my opponents were pissed.
Perrserker @ terablast
Ability: Steely Spirit
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- U-turn
- Double-Edge
- Metal Burst
This does exactly what you think it does. Transforms Fake Out into a Steel type move and powers it up with STAB + Steely Spirit. It was enough to OHKO many many mons and do easily 40-50% to resists. So sad both Fake Out and Tera Blast got banned but honestly.. I get it. That was annoying to play against and even though I didnt see any Perrserkers doing this against me I'm sure my opponents were pissed.
Noticed this a little while ago but got around to testing it just now. It seems like Assurance as a forte does not interact as one would expect with Triple Axel. The third hit of the attack doesn't gain any extra damage as normal and hits for the same range as the second. The assurance boost seems to be kicking in and stopping the Triple Axel boost from working.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2026344808
The first Weavile is holding a irrelevant item (Expert Belt) and the second has an Assurance Forte.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2026350343
Other multi-hits function as expected so it's likely something to do with Triple Axel. Presumably also Triple Kick but, on a brief glance, Hitmontop doesn't have any doubling moves to check it with.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2026344808
The first Weavile is holding a irrelevant item (Expert Belt) and the second has an Assurance Forte.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2026350343
Other multi-hits function as expected so it's likely something to do with Triple Axel. Presumably also Triple Kick but, on a brief glance, Hitmontop doesn't have any doubling moves to check it with.
ponchlake
cult of personality cult leader
This’ll happen when you have a Forte like Payback or Avalanche that modifies damage modifiers and you use a move like Heavy Slam or Gyro Ball which have variable BP.
We’ll just chalk this up to another technical doohickey. This is in all likelihood a low priority issue due to how niche it is so no guarantees on when it’d be fixed. Besides even if Assurance is fixed to apply damage increases per hits on stuff like Triple Axel or multis, then we’d potentially have to hit it anyways.
Last edited:
Remember to make bug reports in the corresponding forum, this thread should be for metagame discussion.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/introduction-to-the-ps-bug-reports-forum.3733412/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/introduction-to-the-ps-bug-reports-forum.3733412/
Not sure if this is a bug or not. But terrain pulse does not give 2x power while in terrain. It does give grass move 1.3 boost, but that's just grassy terrain.
Arboliva @ Terrain Pulse
Ability: Seed Sower
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Giga Drain
- Earth Power
- Memento
Volcarona @ absorb
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2026717957
Arboliva @ Terrain Pulse
Ability: Seed Sower
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Giga Drain
- Earth Power
- Memento
Volcarona @ absorb
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2026717957
i've been testing this strategy quite a while and i found it interesting as a niche
Slowking-Galar @ Avalanche
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 196 HP / 252 SpA / 60 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic Noise
- Sludge Bomb
- Fire Blast
- Chilly Reception
G-King hits like a truck when gets hit by something. Avalanche seems a nice strategy to break some bulky pokemon overall. I like using it as a slow user, with the option of chilly reception, switching to:
Beartic @ Frost Breath
Ability: Slush Rush
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 64 HP / 220 Atk / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Jet
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
Beartic hits really hard after a swords dance boost. Frost breath makes it even stronger turning all the attacks critical. I had some succes caugthing off guard some hatterenes and enamorus. I even had succes against a sun team.
i think this could potentially work if its combined with the right suppport
Slowking-Galar @ Avalanche
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 196 HP / 252 SpA / 60 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic Noise
- Sludge Bomb
- Fire Blast
- Chilly Reception
G-King hits like a truck when gets hit by something. Avalanche seems a nice strategy to break some bulky pokemon overall. I like using it as a slow user, with the option of chilly reception, switching to:
Beartic @ Frost Breath
Ability: Slush Rush
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 64 HP / 220 Atk / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Aqua Jet
- Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
Beartic hits really hard after a swords dance boost. Frost breath makes it even stronger turning all the attacks critical. I had some succes caugthing off guard some hatterenes and enamorus. I even had succes against a sun team.
i think this could potentially work if its combined with the right suppport
Looks like it is working as intended to me, and Terrain Pulse does give 2x Power from terrain. Keep in mind that Earth Power got turned into a Grass type move by Terrain Pulse, which is also why it was not very effective against Volc. Using Terrain Pulse in the calculator and setting its BP to 90 gives the result below, which lines up with the Earth Power damage roll (meaning it also got the 2x power just like Terrain Pulse). The low damage is simply because is was doubly resisted.
252+ SpA Arboliva Terrain Pulse (180 BP Grass) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona in Grassy Terrain: 97-115 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Yes
ponchlake
cult of personality cult leader
I've climbed to #2 on the ladder, and I'm probably done with the tier for a short bit until some potential changes happen. I'll share some sets, and giv my thoughts on the meta . With that said, I'm gonna announce that we will be posting a tiering survey for the community to give their input on sometime during the weekend or at the latest the start of next week. It is quite extensive at ~36 questions right now, but that's because we've been listening to what you guys have had to say on here and in the OM room on PS. We've made sure to include all of the relevant ones, so please look forward to that and participate to help us help you. Also expect a ban slate sometime before the weekend as well with things that we believe need to be looked at immediately. Moving onto the sets..
Ceruledge @ Flame Charge
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bitter Blade
- Poltergeist
- Close Combat / Shadow Sneak
This feels fairly underprepared for at the moment despite being an insane breaker with a ton of sweeping potential. With the right MU's this thing can just devastate teams once you set-up. It has amazing MU's against common cores like Trick Room, Psychic Terrain, and HO. Bitter Blade healing goes along way to keeping you healthy while doing massive damage. Close Combat is replacable depending on the team or your preferances. Shadow Sneak can pick off low mons and give you +1 in the process, and sometimes you don't even need SD to do a lot of damage. I think Weak Armor is overkill on this, and the Fire immunity is great vs Weather Ball or Sun teams.
Terapagos-Terastal @ rapidspin
Ability: Tera Shell
Tera Type: Stellar
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tera Starstorm
- Calm Mind
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
I feel like people gave up on this thing as soon as Tera was banned, but it's still a really potent set-up sweeper with Rapid Spin Forte having great utility on top of it. It does lack some immediate power even at +1, but the bulk is quite nice and the coverage is fantastic. I think the damage issue can be resolved by sticking some hazards on your team to help Terapagos pick up kills more easily. Tera Shell is also a goofy ability that allows for some shenanigans if you're at full. I think people should give this thing another try.
General thoughts of the meta though: we hope that we can slow the overall pace of the meta down just a smidge through some tiering action. I quite like fast paced metas, but there is a thing as too fast. I think the meta is leaning a little bit over that, so we're gonna try to get that going at least the speed limit. I think the main things we ought to keep an eye out through this month is mainly Body Press and Speed boosting Fortes. The former I think is balanced but there are outlier users that are too powerful IMO, and the latter I think we need to hit in a manner similar to U-Turn, where options are available but we don't want there being too many different ways to boost Speed. Speaking of which, U-Turn is something we're potentially banning and in turn replacing with one of Flip Turn or Volt Switch. You're not gonna have both for obvious reasons. But that's a short check in from me. Expect some bans soon and then a tiering survey and shortly after. Have fun this month y'all.
Edit: I've climbed to #1 now, and I lied about not playing anymore.
Last edited:
Base Power modifiers from fortes overwrite other base power modifiers, this is why Assurance seems to reduce Triple Axel's damage output and why weight based moves do no damage when paired with a forte with a base power modifier.
Shed Tail or Terapagos need a ban immediately. Behind a Substitute, Terapagos can set up two or even three Calm Minds and completely sweep your team with Rapid Spin and Tera Starstorm. It is utterly uncounterable unless you decide to use Infiltrator Dragapult, which still likely loses if you do not send it in time. Terapagos can easily go for an early game sweep with nearly zero risk.
ponchlake
cult of personality cult leader
Comfey, Meowscarada, Urshifu-Rapid Strike, and Shed Tail is banned from Fortemons. Weather Ball is restricted from Fortemons.
| ponch | KaenSoul | Dark Koopatrol | Results: | |
| Comfey | Ban | Ban | Do Not Ban | Ban |
| Meowscarada | Ban | Ban | Do Not Ban | Ban |
| Urshifu-Rapid | Ban | Ban | Ban | Ban |
| Shed Tail | Ban | Ban | Ban | Ban |
| Weather Ball | Ban Abusers | Ban | Ban | Ban |
Draining Kiss Forte gave all of its attacks +3 priority and 75% healing even on powerful attacks like Stored Power. Though it did fall off in power with the banning of Tera, it still remained an incredibly powerful threat that required a hard counter or two on every team. It was shut down by Psychic Noise and anti-priority measures like Psychic Terrain and Armor Tail, but not every team can realistically fit those onto it. Despite having counters, we believe the payoff is more than worth the risk and the times you get Comfey to work is more times than not, and Comfey working usually means it sweeps you or puts massive pressure on your team.
The mascot of Fortemons has gotten too powerful this DLC with new MU's it feasts on and Triple Axel giving it the breaking power it lacked pre-DLC. The speed is uncontested and most Pokemon that do outspeed it usually drop to Sucker Punch. Low Kick is absurdly strong into the Steel heavy meta we're in currently and completely ignores Defense boosts. It also resisted most common forms of priority save for a few, which made it difficult to revenge kill. Meowscarada feels suffocating at the moment with few reliable checks which isn't healthy.
People stopped using this as much once the Tera Blast bug was fixed, which is strange to me given that it's still Urshifu. SD + 3A roasted everything in the format, and Surging Strikes crits meant Body Press mons couldn't hope to beat you. Trailblaze item meant +3 Speed on a single Surging Strikes or +1 from Aqua Jet. It had the coverage to hit anything it desired as well. Just because we started seeing it less didn't make it any less of a threat. I have no doubts people would have circled back to it anyways given enough time.
You don't need me to explain this to you. Fat sub passing for your sweepers is dumb in every format.
Weather ball has been contentious for its power for two months now, making weather teams unbearably strong at times. We've gotten more threats with the DLC for Sun and Rain teams. This was originally going to be a Kingdra ban, as even Damp Rock ban wasn't enough to rein in the power level of Rain. Kingdra outsped everything and OHKO'd almost everything under Rain. Then people started experimenting with Sun teams and using Ninetales-A offensively. With the increase of Weather Ball abusers, it's become too powerful to stay legal.
Kris poke
Body Press mons essentially render most defensive play worthless thanks to their ability to run mixed movesets while running extremely powerful moves like Draco Meteor and Overheat without any downsides. Offensive potential aside, they're also just genuinely good Pokemon, which ends up making it so one of them is on every team. I think Body Press is the biggest reason for the lack of any attempts at anything fatter than balance offense in the current meta, and axing it would make building way less monotonous.
I'd like to second this one.
Even if you ignore the problem of defensive counterplay, Body press effectively turns Iron Def into a zero drawback +2 Spa +2 atk + 2def boost
I've been abusing H-goodra and can confirm that this should not exist
Anklebreaker( Zapdos-G) @ thunderouskick
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- Stomping Tantrum
- Low Kick
- U-turn
Probably my favorite opening mon in the game right now. -2 defense guaranteed with Dual Wingbeat (if you can handle occasionally missing) and cripples a lot of mons from the get go. Stomping Tantrum takes out Glimm’s that don’t run sash and gholdengo’s that switch in on a Low Kick. Low Kick does a surprising amount of damage and goes well against Archaludon, as the forte cancels out Stamina. U-turn can support mons like Fell Stinger Overqwil to get an easy ko. Also goes well against Body Press / Unaware Mons.
Main counters I’ve seen have been Meow with Triple Axel (who got banned :] ), Comfey (who got banned >:]]]] ), Clear Body Pult, Serp and Enamorus.
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dual Wingbeat
- Stomping Tantrum
- Low Kick
- U-turn
Probably my favorite opening mon in the game right now. -2 defense guaranteed with Dual Wingbeat (if you can handle occasionally missing) and cripples a lot of mons from the get go. Stomping Tantrum takes out Glimm’s that don’t run sash and gholdengo’s that switch in on a Low Kick. Low Kick does a surprising amount of damage and goes well against Archaludon, as the forte cancels out Stamina. U-turn can support mons like Fell Stinger Overqwil to get an easy ko. Also goes well against Body Press / Unaware Mons.
Main counters I’ve seen have been Meow with Triple Axel (who got banned :] ), Comfey (who got banned >:]]]] ), Clear Body Pult, Serp and Enamorus.
Last edited:
Logged in to say this.. body press is a problem, someone explained it a few posts before so I don't need to explain.
And why U-turn is allowed while volt switch and flip are restricted; Are we going to have the hyper beam, hydrocannon, draco meteor, etc. auto switches? Not sure on this but wasnt this banned last time for how bad it was?
And why U-turn is allowed while volt switch and flip are restricted; Are we going to have the hyper beam, hydrocannon, draco meteor, etc. auto switches? Not sure on this but wasnt this banned last time for how bad it was?
ponchlake
cult of personality cult leader
Comfey, Meowscarada, Urshifu-Rapid Strike, and Shed Tail is banned from Fortemons. Weather Ball is restricted from Fortemons.
ponch KaenSoul Dark Koopatrol Results: Comfey Ban Ban Do Not Ban Ban Meowscarada Ban Ban Do Not Ban Ban Urshifu-Rapid Ban Ban Ban Ban Shed Tail Ban Ban Ban Ban Weather Ball Ban Abusers Ban Ban Ban
Draining Kiss Forte gave all of its attacks +3 priority and 75% healing even on powerful attacks like Stored Power. Though it did fall off in power with the banning of Tera, it still remained an incredibly powerful threat that required a hard counter or two on every team. It was shut down by Psychic Noise and anti-priority measures like Psychic Terrain and Armor Tail, but not every team can realistically fit those onto it. Despite having counters, we believe the payoff is more than worth the risk and the times you get Comfey to work is more times than not, and Comfey working usually means it sweeps you or puts massive pressure on your team.
The mascot of Fortemons has gotten too powerful this DLC with new MU's it feasts on and Triple Axel giving it the breaking power it lacked pre-DLC. The speed is uncontested and most Pokemon that do outspeed it usually drop to Sucker Punch. Low Kick is absurdly strong into the Steel heavy meta we're in currently and completely ignores Defense boosts. It also resisted most common forms of priority save for a few, which made it difficult to revenge kill. Meowscarada feels suffocating at the moment with few reliable checks which isn't healthy.
People stopped using this as much once the Tera Blast bug was fixed, which is strange to me given that it's still Urshifu. SD + 3A roasted everything in the format, and Surging Strikes crits meant Body Press mons couldn't hope to beat you. Trailblaze item meant +3 Speed on a single Surging Strikes or +1 from Aqua Jet. It had the coverage to hit anything it desired as well. Just because we started seeing it less didn't make it any less of a threat. I have no doubts people would have circled back to it anyways given enough time.
You don't need me to explain this to you. Fat sub passing for your sweepers is dumb in every format.
Weather ball has been contentious for its power for two months now, making weather teams unbearably strong at times. We've gotten more threats with the DLC for Sun and Rain teams. This was originally going to be a Kingdra ban, as even Damp Rock ban wasn't enough to rein in the power level of Rain. Kingdra outsped everything and OHKO'd almost everything under Rain. Then people started experimenting with Sun teams and using Ninetales-A offensively. With the increase of Weather Ball abusers, it's become too powerful to stay legal.
Kris poke
We're moving to Sleep Move Clause from Sleep Clause