Freed Pokemon

[Shouting]

Archen has pretty much handled any Yamna that I've come across quite well, as I don't even think Giga Drain 2HKOs (it might with stealth rock though, but spinning yay) and most Yamna seem to be carrying protect (beats me as to why they do, but I digress) so they either carry Giga Drain OR Hidden Power Ground which makes it easier to handle.

Honestly out all the unbanned stuff, Gilgar gives me the most trouble. Yeah, Sneasel is really annoying (especially when it's paired with gilgar, which 80% of them are) but I can't find a solid check to Gilgar. Swords Dance and Acrobatics is just really good, the support set is nice, but Gilgar is much scarier when it carries Swords Dance.

Tanglea is also annoying too, but not on the levels of the others.

 

[prem]

Why are Elekid and Sneasel being compared? Elekid doesn't outspeed the entire unboosted tier by itself, not does it have a boosting move to actually sweep. Also, even if Icicle Crash isn't currently compatible with Knock Off, how can one go wrong with a 65 base Power Dark move (already stronger than Bite / Punishment) that not only gets boosted against item-wielding opponents, but also either removes Berry Juices before consumption, as well as Eviolites so that the subsequent Knock Off would be just as strong? Just use Ice Punch and / or Ice Shard alongside Knock Off.

Even if I'm theorymonning as much as everyone else, I think Sneasel does deserve a good deal of its hype. Sure Fighting priority users keep it in check, but a little birdie told me priority Brave Birds are going to be big and Sneasel having STAB Ice Shard to counteract that is quite a boon.

my whole arguement is that theres too much hype not that the hype isnt deserved lol. also 65 base power is weak as hell and ive never seen a sd sneasel do something to me that a regular sneasel wouldnt have done to me and elekid does actually does outspeed the whole unboosted tier by itself not counting sneasel, so in the theoretical metagame where sneasel doesnt exist, i think of them playing the exact same role with sneasel just doing it better than elekid cause stats, but even then its moves are much weaker it just has more utility. i really do think that its infuriating to hear this hype use an ice punch and it fails to kill something. like my sneasel didnt even do 35% to a swirlix when i used ice shard. when i think broken i think untouchable god like murkrow last gen!

Can Meditite switch in on Yanma? No.
Can Sneasel switch in on Yanma? No.


So basicly, you're saying you don't mind Yanma because you 'only have to sac something to get Sneasel/Meditite in safely' ? how does that make it worse than Mixkrow, arguably the best offensive mon in Gen 5 LC, for whom you could say the same thing

they actually can switch into yanma you just have to predict well! its a a real thing.

and yeah i think thats a difference of what people consider broken. having to sack something to get rid of a major threat isnt a big issue to me as long as you are smart about it. i mean if its literally a 100% kill when it comes out it is a problem but if there are ways to prevent a death (predicting is the only way i can win in this game lol) i think its just complaining! i mean if i dont think yanma is okay cause you cant really revenge it due to speed boost, murkrow isnt okay cause lol go revenge a sucker punch have fun, but yeah im just defining shit

 

[Heysup]

I'll say this one more time, Elekid and Sneasel do not do the same thing otherwise you're misusing Sneasel. He's a revenge killer and late-game cleaner. Elekid is not as versatile is just the latter since its not faster than most scarfers or have double priority including one STAB.

Yanma is not difficult to handle specifically for me because I have Sneasel and Munchlax but otherwise it's really hard to stop.

I've been waiting for an excuse to use Icicle Crash, maybe this new ladder will give me a reason.

 

[Swan Songs]

Your points are completely valid. I was just stating my experiences with Yanma on my opponents team.
Also fairly sure that both Sneasel and Meditite can take a bug buzz and giga drain, and Sneasel may be able to take an air slash. This is just speculation; I haven't actually done any calcs.

Also referencing your post, yes I do sac things to revenge kill. My team is hyper offence so defensive synergy really doesn't matter much to me.

 

[Rowan]

A really good core using the freed Pokemon is Meditite and Sneasel.

Sneasel @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Poison Jab / Brick Break
- Ice Shard

Meditite @ Eviolite
Ability: Pure Power
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 236 SDef / 76 Def
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Bullet Punch
- Thunder Punch / Ice Punch

Nothing can really switch into Meditite without prediction and when it gets in, something is going to be severely hurt. Bullet Punch makes it really useful in this metagame, revenging Sneasel and Swirlix. I pair it with LO Sneasel and they are really good at wearing down physical walls together especially with Sneasel's Knock Off. Almost always, one of them can end up late-game sweeping. Sneasel checks things like Gligar and Misdreavus which give Meditite trouble, whilst Meditite can switch into Timburr or Croagunk that try to revenge Sneasel. Basically if you have these 2 on a team together, it's going to put a lot of pressure on the opponent and make them rely on prediction a lot, as they're 2 of the hardest Pokemon to switch into.

 

[Punchshroom]

my whole arguement is that theres too much hype not that the hype isnt deserved lol. also 65 base power is weak as hell and ive never seen a sd sneasel do something to me that a regular sneasel wouldnt have done to me and elekid does actually does outspeed the whole unboosted tier by itself not counting sneasel, so in the theoretical metagame where sneasel doesnt exist, i think of them playing the exact same role with sneasel just doing it better than elekid cause stats, but even then its moves are much weaker it just has more utility. i really do think that its infuriating to hear this hype use an ice punch and it fails to kill something. like my sneasel didnt even do 35% to a swirlix when i used ice shard. when i think broken i think untouchable god like murkrow last gen!

Ah you're right about Elekid, my bad.

About Sneasel's Knock Off having 65 base power, keep in mind this is buffed to 97.5 base power when hitting a target wielding an item, and you get to strip off their Eviolite / Berry Juice while doing so. This makes it remarkably hard to switch into Sneasel since Knock Off can very well soften them up for a 2HKO on the switch, especially when you consider Sneasel has 19-20 Attack (Adamant is very viable since Sneasel still hits 21 Speed) unboosted which is pretty freakin' high. Elekid doesn't even compare lol.

Curiously enough, I managed to get by using a Nosepass of all things in Sand to beat nearly any Murkrow variant (the reason Nosepass isn't used much is because it's such a liability against resists, like Fighting-types) so Murkrow is not "untouchable". On the other hand, I can't think of (m)any things that would like switching into Sneasel's Knock Off (which gets boosted & cuts their bulk) and powerful attacking options.

 

[Heysup]

A really good core using the freed Pokemon is Meditite and Sneasel.

Sneasel @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Poison Jab / Brick Break
- Ice Shard

Meditite @ Eviolite
Ability: Pure Power
Level: 5
EVs: 196 Atk / 236 SDef / 76 Def
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Bullet Punch
- Thunder Punch / Ice Punch

Nothing can really switch into Meditite without prediction and when it gets in, something is going to be severely hurt. Bullet Punch makes it really useful in this metagame, revenging Sneasel and Swirlix. I pair it with LO Sneasel and they are really good at wearing down physical walls together especially with Sneasel's Knock Off. Almost always, one of them can end up late-game sweeping. Sneasel checks things like Gligar and Misdreavus which give Meditite trouble, whilst Meditite can switch into Timburr or Croagunk that try to revenge Sneasel. Basically if you have these 2 on a team together, it's going to put a lot of pressure on the opponent and make them rely on prediction a lot, as they're 2 of the hardest Pokemon to switch into.

I've been experimenting with Sneasel + Meditite and Sneasel + Gligar and they are both excellent pivots. Even though the Pokebank ladder doesn't mean much I've yet to actually lose just using Sneasel with 5 pivots lol.

 

[prem]

I've been experimenting with Sneasel + Meditite and Sneasel + Gligar and they are both excellent pivots. Even though the Pokebank ladder doesn't mean much I've yet to actually lose just using Sneasel with 5 pivots lol.

how do you think i play this game always lol

and yeah nosepass sounds like it actually kinda beats murkrow but whatever no one ran that and its probably not to hard to get around

 

[Heysup]

Purely Sneasel + anti-Sneasel + anti-anti-Sneasel Pokemon on a team would kind of give a different idea than you've been supporting :P. My team is just Sneasel, Pokemon who can switch into Sneasels checks, and Pokemon that can deal with Sneasel.

 

[Twins]

Why use a core when you can run the whole ladder to the ground with all 6 (screw vulpix) of them?

This probably doesn't prove anything, but I haven't lost in 8 matches with that team (would do more but LC is slooow). In my experience, Yanma and Sneasel are definitely the strongest, easily sweeping entire teams by themselves. Meditite comes close. Gligar is kinda borderline. Tangela and Carvanha I feel could stay, although they certainly have reasons for being banned the past generation that still apply now.

 

[Heysup]

Seen a couple of those and they are strong enough for someone to win without even thinking, however those 6 simply don't have enough synergy specifically when using special attackers like Swirlix which can almost beat the whole team by itself.

And yea, Gligar is hard to judge at this point. Versatility is unmatched but its not too good at any one thing really, it's just able to do so much with so little moveslots. Same as usual, it will come to a philosophical reason whether or not it stays.

 

[Swan Songs]

Seen a couple of those and they are strong enough for someone to win without even thinking, however those 6 simply don't have enough synergy specifically when using special attackers like Swirlix which can almost beat the whole team by itself.

And yea, Gligar is hard to judge at this point. Versatility is unmatched but its not too good at any one thing really, it's just able to do so much with so little moveslots. Same as usual, it will come to a philosophical reason whether or not it stays.

Fake out+bullet punch Meditite revenges Swirlix easily.
I agree about your point on Gligar. If you predict that it's Acrogar or Support and it ends up baton passing +2 speed and +2 attack to something, or even one of those boosts you're in for a lot of pain. Same goes for thinking support and getting raped by Acro.

 

[Twins]

You don't need synergy (aside from not doing 3 different weathers) when you're running an Ubers team in OU. Same in LC.

 

[Swan Songs]

You don't need synergy (aside from not doing 3 different weathers) when you're running an Ubers team in OU. Same in LC.

Doesn't matter how strong the pokes are if other people run them as well and they check each other.

 

[Heysup]

You don't need synergy (aside from not doing 3 different weathers) when you're running an Ubers team in OU. Same in LC.

Not a relevant analogy because:

A) Fomerly Uber LC Pokemon vs Regular LC Pokemon is not the same as Ubers vs OU. It's be easy to argue that Mewtwo in OU is scarier than Sneasel in LC and other things.
B) All LC teams can use other formerly Uber Pokemon. It's not just you. And you're analogy seems kind of silly when you restate it as "Ubers team does not need any synergy when every other team is running Ubers and has synergy".
C) It's not true. It's easy to argue that if you run an Ubers team without any synergy you can lose to a counter-ubers team with synergy even if it's made without any Ubers.

 

[typon77]

I don't know why people are complaining so much about Sneasel and not Yanma. Yanma is easily the best of the Freed Pokemon in my experiences with it. Sneasel is incredibly easy to check, as its weak to the most common priority moves in the tier right now, such as Meditite's Bullet Punch and general Mach Punch. However, getting back to Yanma, it has saved me when I seem to be cornered and on the verge of a loss countless times. With a set of Protect/Bug Buzz/Air Slash/Giga Drain and Modest+LO, it is hands down the best late game cleaner in the tier. Pairing it with Fighting types works great (I'm using Meditite and Timburr), as they eliminate Steels and Sneasel, the two things that give this set the most trouble. It just seems like once you've spammed Knock Off for an entire match and weakened opposing walls, nothing can stop Yanma.

 

[Pen Ink]

I don't know why people are complaining so much about Sneasel and not Yanma. Yanma is easily the best of the Freed Pokemon in my experiences with it. Sneasel is incredibly easy to check, as its weak to the most common priority moves in the tier right now, such as Meditite's Bullet Punch and general Mach Punch. However, getting back to Yanma, it has saved me when I seem to be cornered and on the verge of a loss countless times. With a set of Protect/Bug Buzz/Air Slash/Giga Drain and Modest+LO, it is hands down the best late game cleaner in the tier. Pairing it with Fighting types works great (I'm using Meditite and Timburr), as they eliminate Steels and Sneasel, the two things that give this set the most trouble. It just seems like once you've spammed Knock Off for an entire match and weakened opposing walls, nothing can stop Yanma.

yeah i agree with this.

although protect is pretty shit on yanma.

 

[Heysup]

I do agree that Yanma is amazing but the reason people don't complain about it that much is because (as you alluded to) Sneasel is always there to check so many otherwise close to unstoppable Pokemon like Yanma. I guess that also helps partially answer why people complain about Sneasel. It's not as one dimensional as people think.

Also Protect vs Substitute is personal preference IMO. Simply risk vs reward, but Protect does stop Fake Outs which are common.

 

[typon77]

I might actually try Substitute over Protect. I think, in general, Substitute helps you beat more than Protect does. Protect is just useful if you aren't sure what they're going to do, and you know that you can switch out if you need to. I just thought HP Ground was unnecessary when teambuiliding (though it seems pretty useless in general), so I just threw on Protect because its the easiest way to get a free Speed Boost.

I've noticed that Yanma can get its first Speed Boost pretty easily just by coming in for a revenge kill on anything weakened. Even if they switch the pokemon, you still get that +1 boost, which puts a tremendous amount of pressure on your opponent. Basically, Yanma is really good, and you all should use it. For a second, I was thinking it got Tinted Lens like Yanmega, and I imagined the destruction a Specs set would cause, but I'm glad that's just a thought.. Ughh.

 

[Swan Songs]

I don't know why people are complaining so much about Sneasel and not Yanma. Yanma is easily the best of the Freed Pokemon in my experiences with it. Sneasel is incredibly easy to check, as its weak to the most common priority moves in the tier right now, such as Meditite's Bullet Punch and general Mach Punch. However, getting back to Yanma, it has saved me when I seem to be cornered and on the verge of a loss countless times. With a set of Protect/Bug Buzz/Air Slash/Giga Drain and Modest+LO, it is hands down the best late game cleaner in the tier. Pairing it with Fighting types works great (I'm using Meditite and Timburr), as they eliminate Steels and Sneasel, the two things that give this set the most trouble. It just seems like once you've spammed Knock Off for an entire match and weakened opposing walls, nothing can stop Yanma.

Mainly because it's pretty easy to revenge kill imo. Sneasel is everywhere with Ice Shard+Meditite has bullet punch and some run fake out.
Also taking 50% from SR means that fake out Meditite or Bullet Punch Meditite can revenge kill you, as well as most other things with priority.

 

[Chieliee]

SR really isn't that big of an issue. it's pretty much nonexistant

To be fair, i'm not unhappy with sacrificing 50% of Yanma's health to Meditite's BUllet Punch, just to OHKO a pretty big threat overall

Fuck sneasel. If we ban sneasel we might as well ban yanma instantly cause it WILL WRECK

actually don't ban it instantly i wanna play yanma in a sneaselless meta n_n

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Like nothing can switch into Sneasel and have a chance at touching it. There's Timburr's Mach Punch and Meditite's Pure Power Bullet Punch but both of those are moves from slow mons who are weak to Flying and so are easily dispatched by Gligar/Yanma/Murkrow. There's Intimidate Growlithe/Snubbull (Sneasel has access to Poison Jab though) that can come in and force it out ONLY after an inevitable sacrifice of another mon to get them in, and Sneasel just switches out to a check. Stealth Rock does little to limit Sneasel's switching out and in since Defog got its buff and its teammates can easily remove hazards for it.

95 base Atk with STAB Knock Off at 65 base power now deals too much damage in addition to item removal. And the only things that resist Knock Off AND Ice attacks are Carvanha (Base 20 defenses lol) and Pawniard. Pawniard and Scraggy both 4x resist Knock Off and can take a consequent Ice Punch and hit back, but Sneasel has access to Brick Break, which easily finishes them off after removing their Eviolites, regardless of their defensive investment.

 

[blarajan]

I don't think you lot understand. We are not talking about a Pokemon being broken. We are not even talking about it being unhealthy for the tier. We are not making posts that make it seem like a Pokemon should be banned.

We have an entire different fucking tier when Pokebank happens. and we have at least a month after that before we start suspect testing. This is the perfect time to experiment, to have fun, to learn new sets for new Pokemon, and to innovate. Limiting your creativity by assuming something is broken or by placing a Pokemon on every team because 'it's so good" is the exact opposite of what should happen right now.

Build three teams. Do not repeat a single Pokemon out of any of these teams. Have fun. Don't mind losing. Experiment. Test new things. This metagame is actually fun as fuck and there are so many different things we could play with. Complaining about something being too good is just useless griping for the next three months, seriously. It's useless, don't do it.

We have one forum rule, don't break it. Please don't make me infract for this.

 

[Brambane]

I'm not saying any one mon or another is broken

But its hard to experiment when all your test subjects are being oneshotted so all you reach as a conclusion is either "this pokemon is weak as fuk" or "this other pokemon is op as fuk"

I've been trying things, my post in the new movesets thread can attest to that. But I'll be the first to say it is VERY difficult to even do that without certain Pokemon roflstomping you because you aren't running them or their counters

 

[Ssin]

I made this thread to discuss the impact Sneasel has on our metagame and to figure out proper checks and counters. Whether Sneasel will be banned or not is irrelevant to this thread. Approved by Macle

Let's start off with looking at Sneasel's base stats. It's defenses arent very good (55/55/75), but that is not why it's such a threat. The real danger is in it s huge attack and speed (95/115), which make it reach up to 23 speed (22 if adamant) and 20 attack (19 if jolly), and it's amazing move pool, consisting of, but not limited to: priority STAB in Ice Shard, STAB Knock Off, STAB Pursuit, STAB Ice Punch, Brick Break, Aerial Ace, Fake Out, Shadow Claw, Poison Jab and X-Scissor.

What first comes to mind countering Sneasel would be priority, and with a 4x weakness to Fighting, Mach Punch would be your best bet. So Timburr does a pretty good job at countering Sneasel. However Timburr can switch in 4-5 times max without aerial ace, and if said Sneasel runs Aerial Ace, Timburr can switch in 2-3 times on AA (236 Atk (custom) Aerial Ace vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Timburr: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 11.33% chance to 2HKO). If Sneasel is paired up with a Misdreavus running Psychic, your Timburr is, excuse my language, fucked.

Meditite does a fine job with Fake Out+Bullet Punch, but if switched in on Aerial Ace (236 Atk (custom) Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 76 Def (custom): 14-18 (77.77 - 100%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO)+ice shard (Ice Shard: 38.88 - 50%) is a sure KO. It also cant repeatedly switch in on Knock Off/Ice Shard, therefor I wouldn't consider Meditite a counter, more of a check.

If Sneasel is hurt even a little bit, sashed Yanma can KO, it could even OHKO when Sneasel is at full hp, but i dont think people are going to rely on 1/16 damage roll (240+ SpA (custom) Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite (custom): 18-24 (81.81 - 109.09%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO). IMO a check at best.

These are all I can come up with at this moment, please leave whatever you found below, or comment on these, so we can make a proper checks and counters list.

P.S. yes this is my first time posting here.