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Fun in the Sun: a UU Sunny Day Discussion
- Thread starter rayquazamaster776
- Start date
Someone brought up some good reasons why Typhlosion isn't the best fit on a Sunny Day team. Here's a thought to make use of Scarf Typhlosion in the sun without taking damage from Stealth Rock or anything else.
You basically need lead with Taunt to outspeed Uxie (the fastest user of Stealth Rock in UU), Sunny Day, and a way of getting Typhlosion in unscathed. Unfortunately, the speed requirement makes U-turn a poor option for getting something in without damage. It is also unfortunate that Electrode doesn't get Sunny Day, and as far as I can tell (I may have missed something) there's no other fast UU user of Taunt, Sunny Day, and Explosion. However, Persian and Purugly can use Taunt, Sunny Day, Hypnosis and U-turn. By using Hypnosis followed by U-turn, you can get Typhlosion in to launch full health Eruptions in the sun. Best yet, by switching with U-turn, you don't risk bringing him in on something he won't be able to maim or kill. The main point of this would be to weaken your opponent's best Fire resist to clear the way for a later sweeper. While Persian is usually better than Purugly, both of them get the necessary moves for this set, so Purugly's slightly higher bulk and access to Thick Fat (for Froslass and Moltres leads) might make it better in this case.
It's gimmicky, but I think it could work if you really want Typhlosion on your Sunny Day team.
UU pokemon not 2HKO'ed by a Sunny Day Eruption:
Altaria - 41.5% - 48.9%
Blastoise - 40.6% - 47.8%
Chansey - 38.5% - 45.6%
Special Tank Hariyama - 39% - 46.1%
Kabutops - 42.7% - 50.2%
Lanturn - 37.9% - 44.6%
Milotic (Def) - 37.1% - 43.7%
Omastar - 42.2% - 49.6%
Regirock - 36% - 42.6%
Gastrodon (curse) - 33.9% - 40.2%
Grumpig (thick fat) - 37.4% - 44.5%
Slowking - 31.3% - 36.7%
Magcargo - 31.9% - 37.5%
And all of the Flash Fire Pokemon. These calcs are taken from the most defensive set each pokemon runs (based on Smogon's calc).
You can see that aside from Slowking and Magcargo, most of these guys would be 2HKO'ed if you switched out the Choice Scarf for Choice Specs. Considering that people tend to assume Scarf, and that Sunny Day might prevent them from getting suspicious of the extra power, I think that using this strategy with a Specs Typhlosion could actually be a great way to get rid of your enemy's fire resist, provided they don't switch their water type into your lead cat of choice (and I personally would not reveal my Water-type so quickly due to the risk of a Grass-type sweeper). Flash Fire Arcanine is going to be pretty key for damage control against enemy Flash Fire switch-ins. Since Typhlosion is pretty fast for UU anyway, I think this could really work well. Later in the match, Fire Blast is still going to be helpful as well, especially if you can get your health down to Blaze levels.
You basically need lead with Taunt to outspeed Uxie (the fastest user of Stealth Rock in UU), Sunny Day, and a way of getting Typhlosion in unscathed. Unfortunately, the speed requirement makes U-turn a poor option for getting something in without damage. It is also unfortunate that Electrode doesn't get Sunny Day, and as far as I can tell (I may have missed something) there's no other fast UU user of Taunt, Sunny Day, and Explosion. However, Persian and Purugly can use Taunt, Sunny Day, Hypnosis and U-turn. By using Hypnosis followed by U-turn, you can get Typhlosion in to launch full health Eruptions in the sun. Best yet, by switching with U-turn, you don't risk bringing him in on something he won't be able to maim or kill. The main point of this would be to weaken your opponent's best Fire resist to clear the way for a later sweeper. While Persian is usually better than Purugly, both of them get the necessary moves for this set, so Purugly's slightly higher bulk and access to Thick Fat (for Froslass and Moltres leads) might make it better in this case.
It's gimmicky, but I think it could work if you really want Typhlosion on your Sunny Day team.
UU pokemon not 2HKO'ed by a Sunny Day Eruption:
Altaria - 41.5% - 48.9%
Blastoise - 40.6% - 47.8%
Chansey - 38.5% - 45.6%
Special Tank Hariyama - 39% - 46.1%
Kabutops - 42.7% - 50.2%
Lanturn - 37.9% - 44.6%
Milotic (Def) - 37.1% - 43.7%
Omastar - 42.2% - 49.6%
Regirock - 36% - 42.6%
Gastrodon (curse) - 33.9% - 40.2%
Grumpig (thick fat) - 37.4% - 44.5%
Slowking - 31.3% - 36.7%
Magcargo - 31.9% - 37.5%
And all of the Flash Fire Pokemon. These calcs are taken from the most defensive set each pokemon runs (based on Smogon's calc).
You can see that aside from Slowking and Magcargo, most of these guys would be 2HKO'ed if you switched out the Choice Scarf for Choice Specs. Considering that people tend to assume Scarf, and that Sunny Day might prevent them from getting suspicious of the extra power, I think that using this strategy with a Specs Typhlosion could actually be a great way to get rid of your enemy's fire resist, provided they don't switch their water type into your lead cat of choice (and I personally would not reveal my Water-type so quickly due to the risk of a Grass-type sweeper). Flash Fire Arcanine is going to be pretty key for damage control against enemy Flash Fire switch-ins. Since Typhlosion is pretty fast for UU anyway, I think this could really work well. Later in the match, Fire Blast is still going to be helpful as well, especially if you can get your health down to Blaze levels.
Although I have little experiance within UU, I have quite a bit within NU, and used to use a Sunny Day team before the drop of Charizard and Magmortar.
Victreebel is an absolute monster, both in, and out, of the sun, and, most importantly, is the only reliable physical Chlorophill abuser.
Due to Victreebel's ungodly speed in the sun, anything that dislikes Leaf Blade will have to switch out, usually, allowing for a free Swords Dance. While setting up in the Sun may seem against the premise of the idea of abusing Sun, it's vital to abuse OUTSIDE the sun as well.
The key to that is Sucker Punch. Victreebel is one of a very small group of pokemon who can abuse Sucker Punch + Swords Dance. While Absol gets STAB on Sucker Punch, Victreebel has higher defences, and can abuse the sun. In addittion, this makes Victreebel less fearful of priority [Although it resists Mach Punch, Vaccum Wave and Aqua Jet]. Outside of the Sun, Sucker Punch can be used to clean a weakened team.
Victreebel's final slot is somewhat dependant on the team. Weather Ball is better for while the Sun is up, but HP Fire is better for while it's down.
Sludge Bomb is worth a mention due to being able to OHKO Leafeon if you are weilding a Life Orb. While you lose out on Steels, and the Grass/Posions, you hit the Fire-Types that will inevitably switch in harder. Combined with the sure chance that you have a Fire-type anyway on a Sun-Based team, and all of a sudden, a Fire-Type move dosen't seem as needed. While useable [Especially in NU, where there are almost no Steels that are used], it's not the best option in UU.
Sleep Powder is excellent for team support, and allowing Victreebel to set up, and sop it's counters on the switch-in. If your foe has a sleeping pokemon, re-setting the sun later will be even easier. Under the sun, you don't even need to predict the switch, because you'll outspeed anything common in the teir outright, even most scarfers.
So, if you're planning on running the Sun in UU, give Victreebel a try!
Victreebel @ Life Orb
Adamant Nature
252 Attack, 252 Speed, 4 HP [May need tweaking of Speed, as some may be uneeded, so can go into HP]
-Leaf Blade
-Sucker Punch
-Swords Dance
-HP Fire/Weather Ball/Sleep Powder
Victreebel is an absolute monster, both in, and out, of the sun, and, most importantly, is the only reliable physical Chlorophill abuser.
Due to Victreebel's ungodly speed in the sun, anything that dislikes Leaf Blade will have to switch out, usually, allowing for a free Swords Dance. While setting up in the Sun may seem against the premise of the idea of abusing Sun, it's vital to abuse OUTSIDE the sun as well.
The key to that is Sucker Punch. Victreebel is one of a very small group of pokemon who can abuse Sucker Punch + Swords Dance. While Absol gets STAB on Sucker Punch, Victreebel has higher defences, and can abuse the sun. In addittion, this makes Victreebel less fearful of priority [Although it resists Mach Punch, Vaccum Wave and Aqua Jet]. Outside of the Sun, Sucker Punch can be used to clean a weakened team.
Victreebel's final slot is somewhat dependant on the team. Weather Ball is better for while the Sun is up, but HP Fire is better for while it's down.
Sludge Bomb is worth a mention due to being able to OHKO Leafeon if you are weilding a Life Orb. While you lose out on Steels, and the Grass/Posions, you hit the Fire-Types that will inevitably switch in harder. Combined with the sure chance that you have a Fire-type anyway on a Sun-Based team, and all of a sudden, a Fire-Type move dosen't seem as needed. While useable [Especially in NU, where there are almost no Steels that are used], it's not the best option in UU.
Sleep Powder is excellent for team support, and allowing Victreebel to set up, and sop it's counters on the switch-in. If your foe has a sleeping pokemon, re-setting the sun later will be even easier. Under the sun, you don't even need to predict the switch, because you'll outspeed anything common in the teir outright, even most scarfers.
So, if you're planning on running the Sun in UU, give Victreebel a try!
Victreebel @ Life Orb
Adamant Nature
252 Attack, 252 Speed, 4 HP [May need tweaking of Speed, as some may be uneeded, so can go into HP]
-Leaf Blade
-Sucker Punch
-Swords Dance
-HP Fire/Weather Ball/Sleep Powder
I've been using Tangrowth, but Victreebel is actually probably better due to Sucker Punch, as well as higher Attack and Speed. I'll definately change that on the SD team I use.
ALSO: Edited OP to show the team I'm using right now.
Tangrowth is totally bulky while Victreebel is frail. Anyway, both of you seem to have forgot about Shiftry, who learns SD + Sucker Punch as well as NP + Dark Pulse. STAB gives it more power than Victreebel. No Leaf Blade but Seed Bomb isn't that bad. Shiftry also gets Low Kick which should OHKO Registeel after an SD, something Vic can't do with Weather Ball (don't think it 2HKOs). Also, Shiftry gets Explosion. Boom.
Shiftry also has the power to beat Cresselia just watch out for Ice Beam and Thunder Wave
I tested the Purugly lead to set up a Specs Typhlosion in the Sun at full health, and it actually works pretty well. Enemy Froslass leads are easy fodder setup for it, which is nice. Taunt prevents the lack of attacks from turning it into setup fodder, and Thick Fat is useful for surviving various things. The main problem it has is that Hypnosis misses a lot. If it hits, you're pretty much guaranteed to get your best sweeper in due to U-turn. If it's a good switch-in for Typhlosion, you're pretty much guaranteed a kill, usless they use Special Defensive Milotic, Slowking, or a Flash Fire pokemon, which are all fairly rare. Most of the things not OHKO'ed by Eruption hate to see a sun boosted Victreebell come in instead. When they see Typhlosion, Stealth Rock becomes a big priority, so you often get a free switch on Uxie or Registeel as they use Stealth Rock, giving you another chance to fire away Eruption. With it's ability to 2HKO bulky waters, Regirock, and Chansey, it functions as a great early game wall breaker to clear the way for other fire types to sweep. Moltres also appreciates Purugly's ability to Taunt every Stealth Rock lead.
The main problems the combo suffers from are Hypnosis' accuracy, poor match-up against Ambipom leads, and being forced out by Azumarill, Ambipom, and Hitmontop after every kill. Aqua Jet can be handled by Grass sweepers, and Hitmontop by Moltres, but Ambipom can be a real problem. The other problem that the strategy suffers from is that Sunny Day isn't that strong in general. Still, I'd recommend it for anyone who likes using Sunny Day as it can definitely pay off once you get the hang of it.
The main problems the combo suffers from are Hypnosis' accuracy, poor match-up against Ambipom leads, and being forced out by Azumarill, Ambipom, and Hitmontop after every kill. Aqua Jet can be handled by Grass sweepers, and Hitmontop by Moltres, but Ambipom can be a real problem. The other problem that the strategy suffers from is that Sunny Day isn't that strong in general. Still, I'd recommend it for anyone who likes using Sunny Day as it can definitely pay off once you get the hang of it.
Hey guys! Check out the sunny day team I've been working on http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65916
I use a mixed Victreebel to tear through teams at the beginning of the match. It has ridiculous speed and power on both the physical and special side of the spectrum. I'm testing out a more specially-based "Mix"treebel though, due to the fact that solar beam and weather ball get a lot of use in the sun.
Anyway, check out my team and let me know what you think! It's a work in progress, so I'm always willing to hear some advice.
I use a mixed Victreebel to tear through teams at the beginning of the match. It has ridiculous speed and power on both the physical and special side of the spectrum. I'm testing out a more specially-based "Mix"treebel though, due to the fact that solar beam and weather ball get a lot of use in the sun.
Anyway, check out my team and let me know what you think! It's a work in progress, so I'm always willing to hear some advice.
I've recently decided to start UU after getting bored of OU's same old same old. I'm liking the look of Sunny Day and I'm thinking Jumpluff / Tangrowth / Exeggutor / Arcanine / Cresselia / Donphan? I like the look of Specially based mix Victreebel which is probably going in Exeggutor's spot.
And also, I think three grass types is too many, so what good leads are there apart from Jumpluff that could do well on the team? Maybe Moltres, Uxie(but then there are too many psychics for my liking) or even Hariyama who can handle Chansey, Houndoom and Clefable reasonably. But I also want Stealth Rock on my lead so Donphan doesn't have to give up a move...
And also, I think three grass types is too many, so what good leads are there apart from Jumpluff that could do well on the team? Maybe Moltres, Uxie(but then there are too many psychics for my liking) or even Hariyama who can handle Chansey, Houndoom and Clefable reasonably. But I also want Stealth Rock on my lead so Donphan doesn't have to give up a move...
Regirock and Rhyperior have great type synergy and get both set-up moves you need.
It shouldn't be the forgotten weather effect, seriously. These teams can be so much more diverse than Rain teams (Probably Hail and Sand too). You want HO?? Chlorophyll abusers and fire types do that for you. Want to stall?? Surprisingly, you can too. Jumpluff can QuickStall in the sun quite decently. It's more fun playing Sun because you can do more stuff.
Anyways, after seeing all the discussion of Typhlosion, I'd like to say Typhlosion's place on a Sunny Team is not one where he carries a Choice item. If you want him to be a sweeper, give him a Life Orb. You don't want to come in and Erupt onto a Flash Fire Pokemon or something like that and have to switch, wasting precious Sun time and getting hurt more from Stealth Rock and potentially Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Holding a Choice item on a HO team (Sunny Day included) is never a good idea unless it is late game cleaning, and your whole team aims to soften up the cleaner's counters. If we were to use Typhlosion, I'd suggest the SubBlaze set, Sunnybeamer set or the Choice Specs set but replace the item with a Life Orb.
But he risks being soemwhat outclassed by Zard in that respect. (minus the SR weakness)
I think a good choice would be to run the eruption set with lifeorb. Sure it gets weaker per shot, but you'll be dishing out a lot of damage with the added choice of switching to fireblast/overheat later on.
I think a good choice would be to run the eruption set with lifeorb. Sure it gets weaker per shot, but you'll be dishing out a lot of damage with the added choice of switching to fireblast/overheat later on.
I'm testing Regirock now and he's doing quite well. I've changed my lead to Uxie, put special Victreebel over Exeggutor and put Hitmontop over Donphan to better deal with Chansey and Clefable.
Edit: Uh...where are the UU Sunny Day users?
Cress ain't UU anymore
She did do a great job on my team, though. A real lifesaver against rain teams, which had nothing that could OHKO her, and solarbeam, though questionably effective against many threats, could tear through rain teams.
I'm still having trouble finding a replacement. I'm also tossing in that I'm not much of a fan of Victreebell, even with Sucker Punch. Specs typhlosion is where its at for my second dedicated sweeper.
I'm still having trouble finding a replacement. I'm also tossing in that I'm not much of a fan of Victreebell, even with Sucker Punch. Specs typhlosion is where its at for my second dedicated sweeper.
I wondered how long it would be till this thread got a boost. If Damp Rock had been banned im sure this would have become a hot topic.
I think Moltres should be first on any teams list when compared to Magmortar, Entei, Charizard.
Flare Blitz Entei would be great; Sunny Day/Flare Blitz/Solarbeam/Stone Edge looks good to me. (havnt put much thought into it though).
I prefer Exeguttor to Victreebel, going out with a bang is always good fun. Tangrowth is clearly the best sun sweeper IMO
I think Moltres should be first on any teams list when compared to Magmortar, Entei, Charizard.
Flare Blitz Entei would be great; Sunny Day/Flare Blitz/Solarbeam/Stone Edge looks good to me. (havnt put much thought into it though).
I prefer Exeguttor to Victreebel, going out with a bang is always good fun. Tangrowth is clearly the best sun sweeper IMO
Moltres is freaking broken under the sun. Have to use a fast taunt lead though or fast sleep powder lead but fire blast/solarbeam/air slash or hp rock/roost is just about the awesomeness.
but... have to carry a spinner as well which takes up valuable space. been running sunny day donphan (sunny day, rapid spin, stone edge, eq or sr)... usually just sunny day, rapid spin, let it die to get moltres back in.
but... have to carry a spinner as well which takes up valuable space. been running sunny day donphan (sunny day, rapid spin, stone edge, eq or sr)... usually just sunny day, rapid spin, let it die to get moltres back in.
Ive been using Moltres with heat rock FB,SB,Sunny Day, Morning sun. So that it can set sun up for itself, reducing switches. You lose coverage but you do gain the initial (if it isnt already obvious that you are using a Sun team) surprise, when they see Moltres and switch to Milotic as you Sunny Day.
What about Claydol; SR,Rapid spin, Sunny Day, Explosion. (theorymonned). Claydol doesnt get any love these days.
What about Claydol; SR,Rapid spin, Sunny Day, Explosion. (theorymonned). Claydol doesnt get any love these days.
I've had a lot of success with a team that has no spinner at all. I simply use an Ambipom lead for the Taunt, then get the party started right away. If you do it right, it's pretty rare that your opponent can get rocks out in time to do anything, and even if they can, you can often predict it and bring Moltres in for one last hurrah before he starts getting ganked on the switch-in.
I'm running a Moltres similar to Slashbolt, but I've got Roost instead of Morning Sun. More PP, I guess. Not that it matters most of the time.
I'm running a Moltres similar to Slashbolt, but I've got Roost instead of Morning Sun. More PP, I guess. Not that it matters most of the time.
You can also go with a Jumpluff lead here: Sleep Powder/ U-turn/ Encore/ Sunny Day. Jumpluff outspeeds Uxie and can put it to sleep. Encore can force switches so you can also get Typlosion in unharmed.
All good ideas;
especially Narulyg
But seriously; morning sun=extra recovery, roost = get rid of flying type
Jumpluff is an awesome poke, i love to use it but on a sun team you will have alot of grass types already, i would be worried about that in mid/late game.
What do you guys think is the right balance on a sun team?
2 Chloropyll
1 Fire Type sweeper
2 Sun set ups (one of them might be a Rapid Spinner)
and (taunt) lead.
Thats what most my sun teams look like.
especially Narulyg
That is an awesome name, why didnt i think of that? I am creating an Alt called Slashbolt right now.
But seriously; morning sun=extra recovery, roost = get rid of flying type
Jumpluff is an awesome poke, i love to use it but on a sun team you will have alot of grass types already, i would be worried about that in mid/late game.
What do you guys think is the right balance on a sun team?
2 Chloropyll
1 Fire Type sweeper
2 Sun set ups (one of them might be a Rapid Spinner)
and (taunt) lead.
Thats what most my sun teams look like.
Heh, you're welcome, Flashbolt.
My team is a bit odd, I think. I'm very much not a fan of switching back to a dedicated sunsetter every time it dies down. I've got:
2 Dedicated sweepers (1 fire, 1 chlorophyll)
2 Sweepers with Heat Rock and Sunny Day (1 fire, 1 chlorophyll)
2 Dedicated setters (Taunt Lead and Anti-RD Setter)
Works pretty well. Got me voting rights, at any rate. It's currently under Walkin' on Sunshine [UU Sunny Day Team] in the RMT boards if you wanna see specifics. Speaking of which, I'm going to go update a couple moves over in the thread and give Moltres Morning Sun. I think my aversion comes from being a greeny and giving a Stalltres MS instead of Roost. Bad choice. I've also KO'd a few Moltres on the Roost with a well-timed Earthquake, which would make me sad. Morning sun it is!
My team is a bit odd, I think. I'm very much not a fan of switching back to a dedicated sunsetter every time it dies down. I've got:
2 Dedicated sweepers (1 fire, 1 chlorophyll)
2 Sweepers with Heat Rock and Sunny Day (1 fire, 1 chlorophyll)
2 Dedicated setters (Taunt Lead and Anti-RD Setter)
Works pretty well. Got me voting rights, at any rate. It's currently under Walkin' on Sunshine [UU Sunny Day Team] in the RMT boards if you wanna see specifics. Speaking of which, I'm going to go update a couple moves over in the thread and give Moltres Morning Sun. I think my aversion comes from being a greeny and giving a Stalltres MS instead of Roost. Bad choice. I've also KO'd a few Moltres on the Roost with a well-timed Earthquake, which would make me sad. Morning sun it is!
there are a whole lot more pokemon that benefit from the rain than there are pokemon that benefit from the sun