HJK is suicide to use right now. With most teams running a ghost to block rapid spin, using HJK is like saying "kill ma dewd fo me thx".
Which is bad.
Which is bad.
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Fun with Technician
- Thread starter Bourbon
- Start date
I forgot the numbers but I thought max atk/+nature Hitmontop's CB Mach Punch about OHKO'd T-tar.
Yeah, just had to recheck. Against a no HP/def T-tar (haha oh wow) it does:
Damage: 96.19% - 113.20%
Not too shabby.
Granted he can just use any other fighting move (hello Tri-kick) non-CB'd as he outruns T-tar any day of the week.
Way too overspecialized as a T-tar counter (takes Crunch and SE and has the Sp.Def to deal with Boah's attacks and subs) but could be turned more party-friendly with Rapid Spin and Endeavor. I still like him. :D
Yeah, just had to recheck. Against a no HP/def T-tar (haha oh wow) it does:
Damage: 96.19% - 113.20%
Not too shabby.
Granted he can just use any other fighting move (hello Tri-kick) non-CB'd as he outruns T-tar any day of the week.
Way too overspecialized as a T-tar counter (takes Crunch and SE and has the Sp.Def to deal with Boah's attacks and subs) but could be turned more party-friendly with Rapid Spin and Endeavor. I still like him. :D
You also forgot to mention Intimidate, that trait virtually renders Tyrannitar cannon fodder as far as Hitmontop is concerned.
Also with Hitmontop he has so many good options theres no real point in using Hi-Jump Kick. Revenge and Close Combat both exceed it in power significantly. Revenge is better if you wish to retain your defenses and Hitmontop although its not outspeeding anything anytime soon can take hits easily.
Thats actually a typo. Zoom Lens raises accuracy by 20%, not critical.
Success, I'm getting Tyrogues with mach punch ^_^
Now to get the right nature. Quirky and Lax... ugh.
EDIT: I jsut saw something about Revenge. Would Technician make it do 90 if you werent attacked (60 + 30) and 180 if you were? (90 * 2) This doesnt yet factor in STAB... (so it'd actually be 135 and 270 if this is the case)
Or, would it make it do 90 if you werent hit and 120 if you were?! (with STAB, 135 and 180 respectively)
No it isn't, it won't get the boost if revenge gets boosted because the power will be over 60, it's 180 or 135
The second case is true.
This would be the correct scenario, although Revenge always goes second you don't take a defense penalty like with CC and if you run Technician its only 10 weaker than HJK but with 100% accuracy when they don't hit you.
Either way its far more consistant and you do have Mach Punch for clean finishes if you come short of a kill. Since you also have two speed altering moves it means you can also pump all your EV's into defenses instead of speed to actually take advantage of its good defense and high s.def. Its a win/win scenario really.
Then just go with CC, moving last isn't really good.
Uh, there is one thing I'd like to point out. SInce this is antiboah, if a Tar switches in on a Blissey SToss and recovers HP, you assume its a SubPunch variant. Therefore you switch to Top next turn as they sub.
No matter what, they will always try to hit you on the turn they think it will take you to break their sub. Thats when you nail them with Trible Kick.
No matter what, they will always try to hit you on the turn they think it will take you to break their sub. Thats when you nail them with Trible Kick.
Then why use revenge 0_o. And srry, didn't know it was antiboah (if you're going antiboah, just use CB hera)
Well if its strictly for Boah counter than yeah Triple Kick is a much wiser choice. Revenge is more for power/reliability issues.
Actually it does have a small benefit that it can screw up subbing patterns.
Meaning you hit with Revenge first and break sub than Mach Punch them before they can resub putting them into critical health range and preventing another sub. Seeing Mach Punch does become a 90 base damage attack thats not particularly out of the ordinary.
Sides CC is only good if you heavily invest into speed and lets say 70 base speed and max of 317 attack isn't terribly desirable. You may as well invest into a Hitmonlee or Hitmonchan who gets some actual coverage.
I didn't need to mention it. I thought it was common knowledge and 'Top already has
many things on T-tar.
The real trick is trying to make him overtly useful versus OTHER pokemon, T-tar is beaten in the ground already.
As for Revenge v. Tri-Kick, breaking subs is VERY VERY important. Also, going last sucks (well, his speed is low anyway and if you have Mach Punch that's not so bad).
Well against other pokemon Triple Kick doesn't do as much as Revenge even at its weakest and more importantly its not 100% accurate. Statistically Revenge is a better move in both accuracy and raw power.
Therefore Revenge does hold better usuage against other Pokemon. If you really want to break substitute's that desperately than by all means use Triple Kick.
And theres no particularly difficult trick to making him useful against other Pokemon I used this set in Advance and it often equated to a sweep.
Hitmontop@Leftovers
Intimidate
Careful, HP188/Atk62/Def116/S.def144
-Revenge
-Rock Slide
-Mach Punch
-Bulk Up
The EV's were optimized for the Advance game however but I imagine it could easily be modified to this for D/P.
Hitmontop@Leftovers
Technician or Intimidate
-Revenge/Triple Kick
-Mach Punch/Bullet Punch
-Stone Edge
-Bulk Up
Though I can't comment on its usefulness since I find a Adamant-Technician-Stone Edge/Mach Punch/Bullet Punch/Fake Out set as my favourite at the moment. The spread/nature would require actual field testing and tweaking before you got a good layout.
You run Technician if you want Triple Kick or you run Intimidate if you want to switch in and set up on a Gyarados/Electivire/(Generic physical orientated sweeper).
Therefore Revenge does hold better usuage against other Pokemon. If you really want to break substitute's that desperately than by all means use Triple Kick.
And theres no particularly difficult trick to making him useful against other Pokemon I used this set in Advance and it often equated to a sweep.
Hitmontop@Leftovers
Intimidate
Careful, HP188/Atk62/Def116/S.def144
-Revenge
-Rock Slide
-Mach Punch
-Bulk Up
The EV's were optimized for the Advance game however but I imagine it could easily be modified to this for D/P.
Hitmontop@Leftovers
Technician or Intimidate
-Revenge/Triple Kick
-Mach Punch/Bullet Punch
-Stone Edge
-Bulk Up
Though I can't comment on its usefulness since I find a Adamant-Technician-Stone Edge/Mach Punch/Bullet Punch/Fake Out set as my favourite at the moment. The spread/nature would require actual field testing and tweaking before you got a good layout.
You run Technician if you want Triple Kick or you run Intimidate if you want to switch in and set up on a Gyarados/Electivire/(Generic physical orientated sweeper).
Against the hail Walrein set, hitmontop only has a chance of breaking Walrein's sub and actually hitting walrein with Technician (or a choice band). Granted, a chance of breaking the sub is indeed a very good thing, and you can probably run expert belt / black belt / whatever to turn the "almost break" into "break for sure".
I'll run a damage calculation later though...
But because hitmontop only has a chance to break Walrein's sub Technician+item boost, I don't think it would be a good sub breaker. However, I'd like to see calculations against Breloom, breaking Breloom's sub and causing it to flinch on the focus punch would be a good thing.
I'll run a damage calculation later though...
But because hitmontop only has a chance to break Walrein's sub Technician+item boost, I don't think it would be a good sub breaker. However, I'd like to see calculations against Breloom, breaking Breloom's sub and causing it to flinch on the focus punch would be a good thing.
You do realize that not every single set's/strategy usability in existent should be compared to your Walrein, right?
Well, that damn Stallrein is everywhere. You need something to counter it. You know, this might actually be worth a shot. If you can break its subs in the first two kicks, the third might actually do some decent damage. And the crit rate increases too with the no. of kicks, right? By that I mean that the possibility of getting a crit on that turn.
And that everything goes away with one layer of toxic spikes, right? Or a T-tar?
Well if they're everywhere, how does two teams of the same kind play out?
Please, no. That would be a boring battle which would put people off Pokemon.
Just a disgusting stallwar. I had the pleasure of battling Dragontamer today.
He was using the team he described in the topic, while I was using a stall team of my own.
It wasn't pretty. He won 4-0 in the end, but it took a little time.
Just a disgusting stallwar. I had the pleasure of battling Dragontamer today.
He was using the team he described in the topic, while I was using a stall team of my own.
It wasn't pretty. He won 4-0 in the end, but it took a little time.
I'm sorry, but when I think of Triple Kick, I think of breaking subs.
And what are some effective sets that rely on a substitute?
1. SubSeed or SubSpore Breloom
2. Boah
3. Walrein
Those are the top 3 that come to my mind. IMO, if Triple Kick is to be effective, it should take down all 3 sets with ease. We know it takes down T-Tar behind a sub, but it is a little iffy with Walrein's substitute according to my damage calculations (it has a chance of breaking it in 2 kicks, but on the average it will not)
I see it as a potential counter, but it has to be worked with and I'd like to see some damage calculations. Which is why I bring it up. Will it be overspecialized? I dunno, we'll just have to see. But if hitmontop can take down all substitute based strategies, I'd see that as a major advantage.
And what are some effective sets that rely on a substitute?
1. SubSeed or SubSpore Breloom
2. Boah
3. Walrein
Those are the top 3 that come to my mind. IMO, if Triple Kick is to be effective, it should take down all 3 sets with ease. We know it takes down T-Tar behind a sub, but it is a little iffy with Walrein's substitute according to my damage calculations (it has a chance of breaking it in 2 kicks, but on the average it will not)
I see it as a potential counter, but it has to be worked with and I'd like to see some damage calculations. Which is why I bring it up. Will it be overspecialized? I dunno, we'll just have to see. But if hitmontop can take down all substitute based strategies, I'd see that as a major advantage.
I checked on Marriland. With Technician, it looks like you have around a 50% chance of breaking the sub, if the first two hits are decent ones. This is an Adamant max ATK Hitmontop vs a Bold max def/hp Walrein.
HIT 1: 38-45 damage.
HIT 2: 72-84 damage.
-Sub breaks-
HIT 3: 138-163 damage.
Now, for a quick mach punch ; )
MACH PUNCH:138-163 damage.
If the walrein user is smart, he will run, so you mgiht not get to mach punch it.
So, as you can see, after the sub is broken, Walrein will take 276-326 damage. However, it will likely switch out. If the walrein is foolish enough to stay in, the Mach punch will do massive damage.
Now, lets try Ttar.
Once again, Adamant max ATK Hitmontop vs Adamant max HP tyranitar. (who has an impish tyranitar?)
So, this time, I will calculate Mach Punch first, as it will likely do major damage. Perhaps sufficient to 1-2HKO it. Triple kick WILL break the sub, period, and the last kick will do as mcuh as Mach Punch, so I won't calculate it.
MACH PUNCH: 328-386 damage.
Wow, jsut wow. Almost a kill. Unless Ttar is at like 90% health, it'd dead. Triple kick is a sure OHKO.
Ok, another common threat is Herracross. This thing, as all of us know, is a beast with the choice scarf/band
Close Combat: 220-259 damage
Holy cow. Thats a lot of damage. Obviously, if it has the choice band (that was adamant choice scarf) poor Hitmontop would kick the bucket. Well, saying he did survive, lets see what he could do back.
Aerial Ace: 446-525 damage.
OUCH. Herracross got owned.
Ok, so what was my last move? Oh yeah, Pursuit. Not the most interesting move, but hitting Gengar with it would be a pleasant surprise... (not for gengar :naughty: )
So, lets say we got ourselves a nice, juicy Timid gengar. Most don't have psychic, so I'll use shadow ball here.
Shadow Ball: 123-144 damage.
Heh, that didn't do much. Now for pursuit.
Pursuit: 178-210 damage.
So, wow. No matter what Gengar does, it's dead (unless it gets a crit XD)
Anyway, the moral of the story is, my moveset here can fare pretty good against a lot of common threats. Problem is, should I go for:
-Adamant?
-Impish?
-Careful?
Impish would help against herra, Careful against gengar, but if I don't go adamant, I have to knock 10% of all my damage. So, which should i go for? (I've already hatched an impish one, no such luck with the others... yet)
HIT 1: 38-45 damage.
HIT 2: 72-84 damage.
-Sub breaks-
HIT 3: 138-163 damage.
Now, for a quick mach punch ; )
MACH PUNCH:138-163 damage.
If the walrein user is smart, he will run, so you mgiht not get to mach punch it.
So, as you can see, after the sub is broken, Walrein will take 276-326 damage. However, it will likely switch out. If the walrein is foolish enough to stay in, the Mach punch will do massive damage.
Now, lets try Ttar.
Once again, Adamant max ATK Hitmontop vs Adamant max HP tyranitar. (who has an impish tyranitar?)
So, this time, I will calculate Mach Punch first, as it will likely do major damage. Perhaps sufficient to 1-2HKO it. Triple kick WILL break the sub, period, and the last kick will do as mcuh as Mach Punch, so I won't calculate it.
MACH PUNCH: 328-386 damage.
Wow, jsut wow. Almost a kill. Unless Ttar is at like 90% health, it'd dead. Triple kick is a sure OHKO.
Ok, another common threat is Herracross. This thing, as all of us know, is a beast with the choice scarf/band
Close Combat: 220-259 damage
Holy cow. Thats a lot of damage. Obviously, if it has the choice band (that was adamant choice scarf) poor Hitmontop would kick the bucket. Well, saying he did survive, lets see what he could do back.
Aerial Ace: 446-525 damage.
OUCH. Herracross got owned.
Ok, so what was my last move? Oh yeah, Pursuit. Not the most interesting move, but hitting Gengar with it would be a pleasant surprise... (not for gengar :naughty: )
So, lets say we got ourselves a nice, juicy Timid gengar. Most don't have psychic, so I'll use shadow ball here.
Shadow Ball: 123-144 damage.
Heh, that didn't do much. Now for pursuit.
Pursuit: 178-210 damage.
So, wow. No matter what Gengar does, it's dead (unless it gets a crit XD)
Anyway, the moral of the story is, my moveset here can fare pretty good against a lot of common threats. Problem is, should I go for:
-Adamant?
-Impish?
-Careful?
Impish would help against herra, Careful against gengar, but if I don't go adamant, I have to knock 10% of all my damage. So, which should i go for? (I've already hatched an impish one, no such luck with the others... yet)
Something to note but any battler worth their weight in salt would never lead off with a Close Combat on CBHera. Its just asking to be outpredicted, instead most would either use Megahorn or Stone Edge to try aim for neutral both of which Top actually resist.
CC is usually reserved for wall breaking or late game attacks when they lack switches.
As for Hitmontop's nature, Impish won't do jack really. You're better running Intimidate if you want defense.
Careful gives you some switches into bulky waters, Gengar as mentioned and alot of mixed threats not super effective on you. Also a general rule is if you don't plan on exceeding the max for a stat then a +nature in your highest base will give you the most EV's to work with.
Adamant obviously is only needed if you plan on all out attack and need every last bit of attack you need. This applies to sets like Fake Out/Mach Punch, Close Combat variety.
In short. Considering your running a full 4 attacks than you're going to need Adamant.
CC is usually reserved for wall breaking or late game attacks when they lack switches.
As for Hitmontop's nature, Impish won't do jack really. You're better running Intimidate if you want defense.
Careful gives you some switches into bulky waters, Gengar as mentioned and alot of mixed threats not super effective on you. Also a general rule is if you don't plan on exceeding the max for a stat then a +nature in your highest base will give you the most EV's to work with.
Adamant obviously is only needed if you plan on all out attack and need every last bit of attack you need. This applies to sets like Fake Out/Mach Punch, Close Combat variety.
In short. Considering your running a full 4 attacks than you're going to need Adamant.
But as soon as something becomes something that "any battler worth their weight in salt" wouldn't do, then you can do it because it would be totally unpredictable. Sure its still horrible considering that Dusknoir/Weezing/Gliscor don't mind any of those three moves, but considering the general reliablilty of CC is could pay off.