Resource Game Issues and Feedback Thread

[epicdrill]

If an item is removed by Sticky Barb does that count as being knocked off, or is that only with the move Knock Off? There should probably be an official ruling on this before it's actually relevant in a TLG, considering Eject Button only triggers if "the item wasn't knocked off".

Since this question never got an answer I'd like to revisit it.

A couple other minor things I noticed, since Imposter triggers on sendout it should probably get the #trigger tag, and it should probably also get the Trace treatment where if the trainer controlling Ditto sends out first then they get to choose which mon the opponent sends out to Imposter (although this is only relevant for doubles+, since in singles it would always automatically trigger on whichever opponent was sent out).

Also, the timing for Mega Evolution is set as Start of Round in the PHB, but its not listed in the effect timing section to specify when in start of round it occurs.

 

[nightblitz42]

For consistency's sake, Eject Button should lose to EButton, Magician, and other similar effects. Should probably get an entry in the [Effect Timing] section of the Handbook. Same treatment for Mega Evolution imo.

As for Mega Evolution, I do happen to know based on past rulings that it occurs after start-of-round Abilities trigger.

All your stuff about Imposter makes sense, will probably get addressed whenever overarching #Toggle revision happens.

 

[LouisCyphre]

This is a follow-up to this post, specifically addressing protection-bypassing and Substitute-bypassing moves.

As a result of this work, the following terms will be defined:

• Action: Refers to a move, command, or trigger. When a Pokemon is said to act, it is performing an action.
• Attempt: Refers to paying the costs of an action and trying to execute it. Certain effects can prevent certain actions from being attempted. Ordered actions that can't be attempted become Struggle instead.
  • example: A Taunted Pokemon can't attempt non-damaging actions.
  • Whether or not an action can be attempted is checked at the start of the step.
• Execute: Refers to the resolution of an action being attempted by a Pokemon. Certain effects and game states prevent actions from being executed. An action that can be attempted, but can't be executed, will fail if attempted.
  • example: Explosion can't be executed unless the user can pay its entire En cost.
  • example: Aqua Ring doesn't stack with itself, so it will only execute for users not under the effect of Aqua Ring.
• Protection: Refers to the effects of Protect, Detect, and so on that prevents all moves or certain types of moves from affecting the user, or the user's team. Protection can be specific.
  • example: "The user has protection from priority attacks."
• Prevent: A prevented action or effect does not apply any of its effects. Prevention can be specific.
  • example: "Prevent all effects of moves done to the user."
  • example: "Prevent all effects of opponents' nondamaging moves done to the user."
• Succeed: An action succeeds if it isn't prevented, didn't fail, and didn't miss. This is different from hitting a target.
• Fail: An action fails if it is attempted but cannot execute, or if an effect says that it fails. Many moves fail if they're used on a target that are already under their own effects.
  • example: A Pokemon is ordered to use Recover, but becomes Taunted before their turn. Their Recover fails to execute.
  • example: A Pokemon attempts to use Leech Seed on the same foe twice. The second attempt fails to execute.
• Hit: A damaging action hits its target if it wasn't prevented, wasn't blocked, and didn't miss. Many moves have effects that occur on-hit, such as secondary effects. Some moves or effects care about their user being hit.
  • example: "This move has a 20% chance on-hit to inflict Burn."
• Target:Defines an action's range of influence. Actions have to be ordered with targets specified in order to be attempted, unless there's only one possible choice.
  • example: Single-target move with only one foe.
  • example: A move that targets the entire field.

To sum up action processing (in short and only for now): If you can attempt a move, it can succeed or fail.

These terms are the first of many to make up an eventual Glossary for BBP. The hope is to eventually revise all effect descriptions to use coherent language with consistent meaning. Any terms or effects especially needing clarification should be brought to the mod team's attention.

Moves giving Protection
The relevant moves for this list are Protect, Detect, Wide Guard, Quick Guard, Spiky Shield, King's Shield, Baneful Bunker, Obstruct, Mat Block, and Crafty Shield.

These moves all provide protection against one or more types of moves, preventing their damage and/or effects. However, the following moves

Protection-bypassing Moves:

• The ability Unseen Fist causes the user's damaging contact actions to bypass Protection.
• Damaging Z-Moves apply 25% of their damage to targets under Protection.
• Quick Guard is bypassed by any action occurring at Priority 0 or later.
• Wide Guard is bypassed by any non-damaging action, or damaging action that doesn't have the target type "All other Pokemon", "All foes", or "Up to 3 foes".
  • This includes any single-target action.
  • This includes actions that target the field, rather than targeting Pokemon.
• Crafty Shield is bypassed by any action that has a BAP.
  • This includes actions with a BAP that don't end up dealing damage, such as due to a type immunity.
• The following protective moves are bypassed by any action without a BAP:
  • Baneful Bunker
  • King's Shield
  • Obstruct
  • Spiky Shield
  • Mat Block
• The following moves remove Protection from their target after bypassing Protection, except when combined with a move not on this list:
  • Feint
  • Hyperspace Fury
  • Hyperspace Hole
  • Phantom Force
  • Shadow Force
• The following moves bypass Protect, Detect, Spiky Shield, King's Shield, Baneful Bunker, and Obstruct; except when combined with a move not on this list:
  • Acupressure
  • Aromatic Mist
  • Bestow
  • Block
  • Confide
  • Conversion 2
  • Curse (Ghost version)
  • Decorate
  • Doom Desire (targeting and effect)
  • Egg Bomb: Trap (targeting and effect)
  • Feint
  • Flower Shield
  • Future Sight (targeting and effect)
  • Hold Hands
  • Hyperspace Fury
  • Hyperspace Hole
  • Mean Look
  • Perish Song
  • Phantom Force
  • Play Nice
  • Psych Up
  • Roar
  • Role Play
  • Rototiller
  • Shadow Force
  • Sketch
  • Spider Web
  • Spikes
  • Stealth Rock
  • Sticky Web
  • Tearful Look
  • Teatime
  • Toxic Spikes
  • Transform
  • Whirlwind

Substitute Cleanup
Substitute will be rephrased to refer to this list.

Substitute (old)
The user siphons 15, 20, or 25 HP of its life force and creates a Substitute, which acts as a seperate Pokemon with the marked HP. The cost of this move is 12, 18, or 24 energy respectively for the HP options. The Substitute can absorb damage and status attacks for the user, and if a Substitute is KOed, the Substitute is destroyed but the Pokemon comes to no harm unless the attack is a multi-hit move, in which case the excess damage is applied to the Pokemon behind the Substitute. While a Substitute is up, an opposing Pokemon will not take recoil damage from an attack with recoil, or take damage from Life Orb recoil. Substitute's HP is checked at the end of every attack, much like a standard Pokemon's HP - a substitute is broken once it is at or below 0.5 HP after an attack due to damage rounding rules, in the same way a Pokemon is KOed if it sits at 0.5 or less HP after an attack.
A substitute protects the user from all moves except for Attract, Curse, Destiny Bond, Encore, Grudge, Perish Song, Psych Up, Roar, Taunt and Whirlwind. Moves tagged as #Sound also ignore Substitute.

Substitute (new)
(En cost being listed as 12/18/24 is plenty clear enough to convey the meaning.)
The user spends 15, 20, or 25 HP to create a decoy doll with that much HP. Attacks that would hit the user instead perform damage calculation, and reduce the decoy's HP by that amount. Attacks can critically hit a decoy. Secondary effects can't occur when hitting a decoy, even if the holder is hit too. When the decoy runs out of HP, it is destroyed. If the user has a decoy when they attempt this move, Substitute fails.

Attacks that hit the decoy don't inflict any recoil. Multi-hit attacks, that deal more damage than the decoy has HP, will apply the rest of their damage to the decoy's holder. Nondamaging actions from other Pokemon that would affect the holder are prevented while the decoy lasts.

Some moves bypass the decoy. The list of decoy-bypassing moves is [here].

The old description erroneously mentioned Destiny Bond, and other sources mention Imprison, as bypassing decoys. These effects are user-targeted, and don't have any interaction with decoys at all.

Decoy-bypassing Moves

• The ability Infiltrator causes the user's actions to bypass decoys.
• Decoys are bypassed by any moves used by their own holders. (example: Acupressure)
  • Remember that reflected moves "belong" by the owner of the reflecting effect.
• Decoys are bypassed by any moves tagged #Sound.
• Decoys are bypassed by the following moves:
  • After You
  • Aromatic Mist
  • Attract
  • Bestow
  • Conversion 2
  • Curse (Ghost)
  • Disable
  • Encore
  • Fairy Lock
  • Foresight
  • Gear Up
  • Guard Swap
  • Haze
  • Heart Swap
  • Helping Hand
  • Hold Hands
  • Hyperspace Fury
  • Hyperspace Hole
  • Instruct
  • Magnetic Flux
  • Me First
  • Mimic
  • Miracle Eye
  • Odor Sleuth
  • Play Nice
  • Powder
  • Power Swap
  • Psych Up
  • Reflect Type
  • Role Play
  • Sketch
  • Skill Swap
  • Spectral Thief
  • Speed Swap
  • Taunt
  • Torment
  • Whirlwind

If no problems are found with these descriptions or lists, they will be implemented shortly.

But they're not implemented yet, so continue using external resources for just a bit longer.

 

[epicdrill]

Overall the above post looks pretty good, the one thing I'd like some clarification on is entry hazards. As currently written they target all foes, but they also currently bypass (and should bypass) Protect. Would setting entry hazards be considered an effect on the pokemon using Protect, or would that bypass Protect under the planned wording update?

 

[TMan87]

Entry hazards are weird because they should be field effects and not actually target a Pokémon, but they're targeted fields effects, given that Magic Coat will reflect them while it can't reflect, say, Sunny Day.
Would a new category just for them be too much bloat?

 

[epicdrill]

I like the idea of making them a new category (target: opponent's field, for example), especially since this would let us make special combo rules for them like we have for moves targeting the entire battle. This would also resolve the fact that, if the effect of entry hazard moves bypasses protect as written without specifically being added to the list, it would mean that Stealth Rock+Rock Slide would set Stealth Rock even if Protected against, for example. I don't know if that's a bad change, but I expect it would be an unintended change and it probably shouldn't be done without considering the balance implications.

 

[JJayyFeather]

Given that I see no reason to buff/nerf hazard-setting moves at all, I vastly prefer just hardcoding Hazard-setting moves to be in that last group of moves to making any changes that could alter the balance state of those moves.

 

[LouisCyphre]

While i've got my fingers in the DAT, was hoping to clean up some moves with outlier En Costs for their BAP. I don't see any reason to punish any of these moves with sneaky En modifiers, especially around the 5/6 En cutoff for Sluggish:

• Flame Burst - 6 En to 5
• Power-Up Punch - 4 En to 3
• Charge Beam- 6 En to 5

Charge Beam and Fiery Dance having the same En cost is silly and counter-intuitive.

 

[Mowtom]

The explanation I've been given for the sub rule "If a substitution includes any Attack Clauses, at least one of them has to be "positive" (e.g. "IF Taunt AND NOT Encore next action" is legal, but not "IF (chance clauses) AND NOT Move")" feels insufficient to me. It was apparently added to prevent subs like this one:

Flare Blitz - Fire Punch - Flare Blitz

IF Mr. Mime is not under the effects of a P/E move AND Mr. Mime is not under the effects of Magic Coat AND the field is not under the effects of Trick Room AND Mr. Mime is not ordered to use a Psychic-type damaging move on both a2 and a3 AND Mr. Mime is not to use Encore the following action AND Mr. Mime is not under the effects of Taunt AND you are not taunted THEN use Taunt and push actions back.

However, this sub is illegal even without the positive attack clauses rule! It tries to check for both Encore and a damaging Psychic move from Mr. Mime on the same action and is thus illegal under only one move clause per mon per action. Furthermore, had phoenix added a "AND you are to use a damaging Fire type move", the positive attack clause rule would be satisfied! Can someone please provide me an example where the positive attack clause rule is actually required? Preferably one where it can't be trivially circumvented by using the same type of move on each action?


Also, I have been told on Discord that the following setup is illegal because subs do not have modular legality:

X~X~X
IF you are to use X AND NOT foe is to use A this action AND NOT foe is to use B A3 THEN Y

Can we get that written in the handbook somewhere?

 

[epicdrill]

I'm not sure where this goes since technically people could change this if they want, but it's about what's currently viewed as default, so I guess I'll put it here?

There are significant problems with how subs work in doubles+ matches. Most of these problems arise from subs mostly being designed around singles, but I also think it would be worth considering increasing the default substitution limit in doubles in general. My rationale for this is simple: in singles, you have 3 subs applied to one mon to deal with one pokemon's movepool. In doubles, each pokemon gets 3 subs, but you have two movepools to deal with. And while you could argue that the number of subs doubles (in that you now get 6 subs total), the fact that you have to split these subs as 3 to each pokemon means that's not effectively true, since any threats you want to sub for often need to be subbed for twice, once by each pokemon. In addition, sub eaters in doubles are much more common than sub eaters in singles, by virtue of the fact that the best strategy in doubles is usually to focus down one pokemon, meaning Protect goes from spending a bunch of EN to nullify a single action to an automatic +1 turn and therefore a mandatory sub for both pokemon in most cases.

This is in addition to the fact that sub rules are clearly designed for singles, which is made obvious when playing doubles. It is unclear with sub rules as written if "IF X is targeted by/under the effects of Protect" is a legal sub in doubles, which if it is not would make passed protect substantially harder to sub against, as well as necessitating spending 2 subs on any other sub-eaters that both opponents have. In addition, if you want to split the targets of your moves (which is admittedly rare unless you're trying to secure an A1 KO), the fact that "redirect to the other pokemon" is not a legal action clause and "your target is to use Protect" is also of questionable legality for the same reason "IF X is targeted by/under the effects of Protect" is (there is nothing in sub rules stating what makes an action clause legal or not with regard to specifying which pokemon is using the move in question) means you need even more subs just for Protect.

While it is sometimes possible for a single thing you want to sub for to be covered by one sub from a single mon, usually this is not the case, especially if it threatens both pokemon. Thus, limiting doubles to 3 subs per pokemon instead of more (I'm not sure if 4 or 5 would be more appropriate, I'd be inclined to test with 4 first and see how that works) leaves what can be done with subs much more limited than in singles. It is possible this is fixable by reviewing sub rules to make them more doubles-friendly instead of increasing the number of subs per pokemon, and ideally that would be the first solution tried, but that is also substantially more work than just increasing the default sub limit in doubles matches.

 

[Mowtom]

Can we please re-legalize subbing for if you move second by speed order? I'm currently ordering first with a mon whose only answer to DE is Solar Beam, and there's no way for me to cover Icy Wind~DE~DE and Trick Room~DE~DE in one sub. It is actually absurd that I have to waste two subs on this.

 

[F Amadon]

Hey! Per current PHB and Data Audit wording, Skill Link boosts all Multi-Hit moves to 5 hits, not just ones that hit 2-5 times. Moves such as Twinneedle, despite being Fixed Hit moves, aren't exceptions to Skill Link, which says multi-hit moves and not variable-hit moves. The three moves that come to mind about it are Triple Kick, Triple Axel, and Twineedle- and while the first two are not on any Skill Link users, Twineedle is on Shellder and Cloyster, giving a potent 15 BAP Bug-type option with like a 65% chance to poison.

For reference, the relevant parts of the PHB and Data Audit:

Multi-Hit rules

[Multi Hit Moves]
Multi-hit moves have a BAP per hit, which is multiplied the number of hits before being inserted into the damage formula. They come in two varieties.
[Fixed Hit Moves]

• Fixed Hit moves are moves that always hit twice.
  • Triple Hit counts as a fixed hit move, but hits three times.
• Each hit of a fixed hit move can score a critical hit. 2 per critical hit is inserted into the Critical Hit field of the damage formula.

[Variable Hit Moves]

• Variable hit moves hit 2-5 times, with the number of hits assigned randomly.
  • Two Hits: 1/3 chance.
  • Three Hits: 1/3 chance.
  • Four Hits: 1/6 chance.
  • Five Hits: 1/6 chance.
• Add one hit to the number of hits for each Accuracy stage boost of the user. Reduce the number of hits by one for each accuracy stage reduction.
• The number of hits on a variable hit move can not exceed 5 or be less than 2.
• Each hit of a variable hit move can score a critical hit. 1 per critical hit is inserted into the Critical Hit field of the damage formula

Each hit of a Multi-Hit Move can apply any effects associated with the move. Roll the effect chance for each hit individually.

Skill Link
This Pokemon's skillful aim makes its multi-hit moves always hit 5 times. The Energy Cost of multi-hit attacks is increased by three (3).

 

[LouisCyphre]

Cool. It will now say "variable-hit moves". Consider this effective immediately.

 

[P2X7]

Can we change the spread move damage modifier from 0.67x to 0.75x? The latter multiplier is congruent with the way multi-target attacks' damage calculations are handled on cartridge without major effects on the balance forged by the current multiplier.

 

[LouisCyphre]

Nope! Major effects on balance is the point.

As it is, you're getting 4/3 (2/3 on each foe, or about 133%) of your attack's damage by hitting two targets, and it improves from there.

Changing the ratio is a major balance effect. You would get 6/4 (150%) of your move's usual for hitting two targets in this scenario, which is a 12.5% increase in damage and can shave a turn off of many KOs. The multiplier is where it is on purpose.

 

[P2X7]

Smeargle technically has 7 event moves. While previously unnecessary due to Smeargle's unlimited access to Sketch, the decision to restrict Smeargle's Sketched movepool to 25 moves or fewer means we could feasibly give it a few "extra" attacks for reaching Stage 4.

 

[P2X7]

I'm just curious: is there an ETA for Venomicon and/or updated Pyroak?

 

[TMan87]

FWIW Venomicon's data is ready, I'm just waiting for a ruling on whether Vile Vial will be an item or attachment here (and associated cost) to announce that it's fully playable.
As for Pyroak, epic (I think?) mentioned there was still a debate on modifying its stats and movepool so we're holding off on that for now.

 

[P2X7]

For what it's worth, I'd support Vile Vial as an exact translation of Griseous Orb—a Signature Item that boosts Venomicon's STAB moves' BAP by 3. Epilogue must find a total of +3 BAP to 4HKO targets that have 6 Defense and a weakness to Poison or Flying while using a "reliable" STAB move (e.g. Poison Jab / Dual Wingbeat). Given that this is practically the minimum offensive output for a usable Pokemon, that choosing an Attack-boosting Nature hurts one or both of Venomicon's formes, and that Epilogue has almost nothing in its movepool besides STAB moves and a few tricks, I would think that such an Item would be a reasonable option.

 

[P2X7]

Can we add the "Arm" Combo Subclass to Guillotine? The anatomies of six of the ten evolutionary lines that learn this move are such that Guillotine would be performed with its user's pincer, claw, or blade instead of its user's mouth.

 

[nightblitz42]

Can we add the "Arm" Combo Subclass to Guillotine? The anatomies of six of the ten evolutionary lines that learn this move are such that Guillotine would be performed with its user's pincer, claw, or blade instead of its user's mouth.

Good catch! Consider it done.

 

[Mowtom]

The item Pidgeotite and ability Klutz each contain an extra interaction with No Guard, since No Guard renders both Keen Eye and Klutz mostly (but not entirely) useless. Why is this on the Pidgeotite and not on the ability Keen Eye? Lycanroc-Midnight also gets Keen Eye and No Guard, but does not benefit from the interaction the way that Golurk and Mega Pidgeot get to.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

The combo subclass of Poison Jab does not accurately represent the capabilities of the Pokemon that learn the move. Currently, Poison Jab is classified as Body/Arm, but it is commonly found in the movepools of Pokemon which are anatomically unlikely to attack in this manner -- for example, consider horned Pokemon, such as Nidorino, Seaking, and Cloyster; serpentine Pokemon like Arbok, Seviper, and Dunsparce; and spiny Pokemon, including Qwilfish and Toxapex; the first group would rather strike with headbutts, while the latter two would probably attack by using their weapon-like protuberances or a bodily slam. Furthermore, there are certain outliers, such as Donphan and Hitmonlee, for whom an argument can be made to justify mouth- or leg-based applications. Therefore, I propose that the subclass either be changed to "All" or, to encompass only the relevant omissions, expanded to include "Head" and "Tail."

 

[nightblitz42]

S0L1D G0LD I'm not convinced that Poison Jab needs to be reclassified. It's pretty clearly supposed to be a punch-based move based on in-game descriptions, as well as portrayals in the manga and anime.

Although adding something like Head or Tail to the move might make sense for some specific Pokemon, it leads to combos that are unintuitive for most Pokemon, such as [Headbutt + Poison Jab] or [Aqua Tail + Poison Jab]. So I think it's best to leave it alone.

 

[Doduodrio]

I have noticed that P2X7 has been approving nearly all of the prize claims in the Prize Claiming Thread following the absence of Gemini Taurus with nightblitz42 occasionally helping out. Does anybody else think that more approvers are needed?