Garchomp and this Metagame

[D3FAULT]

I honestly didn't read everyone's posts, so this may have been brought up, but I'll ask anyway: If we remove Garchomp, won't there be another Pokemon that will take his place? What I mean by that is, if we remove him, won't there be another Pokemon that gets used tons and tons, and continues to gain usage? (It would probably be Dragonite or Salamence, although that's just a guess.) Will we ban them too? Who was it before Garchomp that was causing "overcentralization"? Blissey maybe?

People are complaining that Garchomp is making the OU list shorter, but by removing him, you not only lose another Pokemon, but you possibly lose a lot of Pokemon who are OU that may be in there for the main purpose of countering him. (note: I said MAIN purpose, not ONLY purpose) Although no Pokemon comes to mind at the moment, I'm sure there is one.

EDIT: Might as well answer these questions while I'm posting here

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
Probably not, since there is the threat of other dragons, who I shouldn't have to name.
2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
I typically prepare for dragons in general, not Garchomp in particular.
3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
Like I said, I normally have several ways to deal with dragons in general, or a physical wall to deal with ANY physical attacker.
4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
Maybe a little, but doesn't most main OU threats? The point of most movesets is to cover a majority of OU Pokemon who you're likely to see.
5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp?
Salamence, Gyarados, Bronzong. You can expect to see a Bronzong on probably 1/3 teams or so. (random estimate)

 

[Alice]

I honestly didn't read everyone's posts, so this may have been brought up, but I'll ask anyway: If we remove Garchomp, won't there be another Pokemon that will take his place? What I mean by that is, if we remove him, won't there be another Pokemon that gets used tons and tons, and continues to gai usage? (It would probably be Dragonite or Salamence, although that's just a guess.) Will we ban them too? Who was it before Garchomp that was causing "overcentralization"? Blissey maybe?

perhaps yache-nite will the the closest thing, but...

you can't compare +1 outrage to the +2 outrage chomp has; nite doesn't even have Stabbed EQ (then again, chomp has +2 stabbed EQ...

and even if nite gets +1 speed, you can T-wave it, ending its sweep.


so I don't think so...

Yachemence is not worth it, IMO, and +1 Dragon claw or pulse doesn't hit hard enough to wreak havoc as +2 outrage, Draco Meteor is a one-shot so it can't sweep with it).

PS: don't even try with flygon, lacks the bulkyness and the power to pull-off a 'chomplike' sweep.

And other pkmn (such as Gengar or DDdos) have enough ways to deal with them w/o chomp (is not like chomp is a reliable gengar/DDdos counter, and there are many posts explaining why they aren't as dangerous as chomp).

 

[Kagster123]

There will still be a Pokemon who everyone thinks is "too good" and needs to be banned from OU play. That's just how it is. As far as who it will be, I have no idea. Though like I said, my guess is another Dragon.

And yeah, Flygon is a bit on the frail side. :P

EDIT: What about Salamence? He's pretty bulky, and with intimidate, he's a bitch to take down with physical attacks, forcing a switch depending on who is in, giving you a free DD.

Its either gonna be Dragonite, Ttar, Mence, or Gross.

I don't think any have the same power as chomp.

 

[D3FAULT]

Its either gonna be Dragonite, Ttar, Mence, or Gross.

I don't think any have the same power as chomp.

I think TTar has too many weaknesses to be a good Chomp replacement. Chomp can normally take non-STAB'd Dragon attacks, (from what I've experienced) leaving his only real weakness being Ice, which is taken care of by a Yache Berry. TTar has tons of weaknesses, however.

And just so everyone sees: WoW > Garchomp.

 

[Kagster123]

If you can get it to hit, while not being hit yourself >_>

 

[Alice]

I think TTar has too many weaknesses to be a good Chomp replacement. Chomp can normally take non-STAB'd Dragon attacks, (from what I've experienced) leaving his only real weakness being Ice, which is taken care of by a Yache Berry. TTar has tons of weaknesses, however.

And just so everyone sees: WoW > Garchomp.

Yeah, tell me how many pokemon can come into a +2 outrage and wow him, and don't forget wow has 75% accuracy and chomp has +20% evasion during sandstorm...

and there's the subsalac set too, which renders wow useless...



About the mence thing I've already explained why; and sadly, the most common ice attacks are Ice beam and HP ice, both being unaffected by intimidate.

and if it gets t-waved, then it's as good as dead.

 

[D3FAULT]

If you can get it to hit, while not being hit yourself >_>

Well yeah, but from a damage calc I did, A Spiritomb or Dusknoir (w/ max def/hp) are only 2HKO'd by a (1) SD'd + Life Orb + Adamant Outraging Garchomp that is burned. I think that's pretty impressive myself.

EDIT: WoWing him is a bitch, yes.. damn.

 

[Kagster123]

Well yeah, but from a damage calc I did, A Spiritomb or Dusknoir (w/ max def/hp) are only 2HKO'd by a (1) SD'd + Life Orb + Adamant Outraging Garchomp that is burned. I think that's pretty impressive myself.

EDIT: WoWing him is a bitch, yes.. damn.

>_>

Wont Work im afraid lol, especially in SS. Pain Split can wear him down for a revenge kill though.

 

[D3FAULT]

An Adamant Focus Sash Weavile can come in during an outrage and survive with 1 hp. An Adamant Weavile out-speeds even a Jolly Garchomp. So he comes in during an outrage, survives with 1 hp, then Ice Punches for an 1HKO, barring Yache Berry, although I'm not too sure how common those are on OutrageChomp. Of course SS or SR kill this strat.. but still, you know..

lol. Meh, I could probably come up with something if I wanted to piss away my night.. so I think I will.

Honestly though, I don't remember the last time an opposing Chomp caused me so much trouble. 0_o

 

[Kagster123]

Bronzong can take care of him pretty well. Coming in even on SD outrages. Reflect helps. Then gyro ball or hypnosis away. Intimidate shifting helps to. Believe it or not, Bulkyraptor did quite well coming into chompies EQ. Also, a fast Encore user like Lopunny, Alakazam, and Jumpluff can screw him over.

 

[Instinctive]

I don't have enough time to quote dig, but:

Old Man Jenkins: You entirely missed my point. You said Infernape OHKOs Cressy with a NP LO Fire Blast. I specifically said that somehtign with defenses that bad and a need to NP and use LO and an 85% Acc attack is not as threatening as a poke that can use a Yache Berry and kill you with absolutely no frailty whatsoever.

You say more teams are Gyara weak than Chomp weak. If that was true, wouldn't Gyara be 2 million points ahead of Chomp in weighted usage and not the other way around?

I specifically said that anything relatively quick (better than a base 90) that can take an unSTABed, base 80 move can revenge kill. You said that frail revengers will be OHKO'ed by ES. You obviously didn't even read my actual comment...

 

[Problem2]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?

Not entirely, but I'm sure that my more unique teams would have a much easier time winning

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?

Garchomp and Gyarados are both big concerns for me when building a team. I always check that I have bulky / scarfed pokemon with Ice moves and bulky / scarfed pokemon with electric moves.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

Skarmory can sometimes resist locked-in Outrage and whirlwind him out (I tend to have a lot of spikes on the field). Blissey has Ice Beam to take out Garchomp if he isn't powered up and ScarfChomp can revenge kill other non-scarchomps unless I miss because of Sandveil. Even then, Garchomp can sometimes still get the best of me.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?

Of course. Even though the point of competitive-mon is to use the full potential of pokemon with movesets that fully exploit each member of your team, it is also an inseparable part of pokemon that this game is about beating other pokemon that have been made with the same goal in mind. So in order to win, you must be able to eliminate your opponent's threat and execute your own.

However, I'm sure that you're aware of that so I will stop giving definitions and more info. First of all, plenty of walls and bulky pokemon are on teams everywhere. When I make a team, I think of the pokemon that are essential to my team's strategy/theme, then I add plenty of pokemon that counter common threats that would just wipe the floor with me.

Also, everything under the sun carries an ice move of some sort. Gliscor has Ice Fang, Blissey has Ice Beam (as opposed to using Thunderbolt / Shadow Ball for ghosts), and Cressilia carries Ice Beam too.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.

Deoxys-S is right up there with Garchomp. I've made teams before that were just fine until I realized that I have nothing that can take neutral damage from Deoxys-S's common moves. He's like Electivire with a Jet pack strapped to his back, and even better than Electivire, Deoxys-S has the potential to use either/both Special and/or Physical Attacks. Deoxys-S however is a little easier to defend against because he doesn't have a great STAB move though or a way to really stat boost. I usually can send in a Bulky pokemon that can survive a hit and hit it for decent damage or Twave it to cripple it completely... which can't be done to Garchomp.

But not every Deoxys-S is offensive. Since his defense stats are about the same as his offensive stats, sometimes a player can unexpectedly run into a Defense oriented Deoxys-S. With Taunt/S Toss/Recover/Cosmic Power, he's almost perfect at bulking up against threats and taunting any sort of counter. In order to beat such a set, you need to outspeed taunt (which can't be done b/c he's the fastest and taunts your speed move) or land a critical hit with a hard hitter such as Gengar w/ Shadow ball.

Really, you can go all theorymon if you want to. Is there a pokemon that can render this set useless 24/7, not even taking considerations that Deoxys-S can have buddies that could aid him?

 

[D3FAULT]

Bronzong can take care of him pretty well. Coming in even on SD outrages. Reflect helps. Then gyro ball or hypnosis away. Intimidate shifting helps to. Believe it or not, Bulkyraptor did quite well coming into chompies EQ. Also, a fast Encore user like Lopunny, Alakazam, and Jumpluff can screw him over.

And we're automatically assuming an obvious Forretress counter is dead right? I think that, with leftovers, Adamant, Life Orb'd, 1 SD'd Outrage only 3HKOs w/ Leftovers. So switch in, take the 2 Outrages, the explode?

Honestly, if we always assume the obvious counters are dead, then almost any Pokemon becomes a "huge threat" to any team, lol.

 

[Instinctive]

An Adamant Focus Sash Weavile can come in during an outrage and survive with 1 hp. An Adamant Weavile out-speeds even a Jolly Garchomp. So he comes in during an outrage, survives with 1 hp, then Ice Punches for an 1HKO, barring Yache Berry, although I'm not too sure how common those are on OutrageChomp. Of course SS or SR kill this strat.. but still, you know..

lol. Meh, I could probably come up with something if I wanted to piss away my night.. so I think I will.

Honestly though, I don't remember the last time an opposing Chomp caused me so much trouble. 0_o

Here are all the points wrong with your argument:

1. Sashed Weavile means you depend on having no SR, no Spikes, no TSpikes, and no Sandstorm when you come in on a Garchomp's Outrage. Good luck with that.

2. You probably don't remember the last time an opposing Chomp caused you much trouble because you are low on the ladder, so your opponents are as well. (Unless you use a different name on the ladder, I didn't see it anywhere close to the top at all...remotely close...at all)

3. SCARFCHOMP

 

[Kagster123]

I'd rather see a scarfchomp over any other type any day. It doesn't have as much as of a bite.

 

[Instinctive]

I'd rather see a scarfchomp over any other type any day. It doesn't have as much as of a bite.

Which is why any competent battler will use him at the very end to clean up when the opponent is weak and thus vulnerable to a quick death by Outrage/EQ

 

[D3FAULT]

Here are all the points wrong with your argument:

1. Sashed Weavile means you depend on having no SR, no Spikes, no TSpikes, and no Sandstorm when you come in on a Garchomp's Outrage. Good luck with that.

2. You probably don't remember the last time an opposing Chomp caused you much trouble because you are low on the ladder, so your opponents are as well. (Unless you use a different name on the ladder, I didn't see it anywhere close to the top at all...remotely close...at all)

3. SCARFCHOMP

I know that theory is lame, which is why I said what I said after that.

I only use Shoddy to test team ideas, and I do all my serious battling via Wifi. Depending on what type of Chomp it is, I normally put it to sleep w/ Gengar when I predict an EQ, or send in a almost dead/useless Pokemon to let it waste one of its Outrages on. I'm not going to sit here and name every situation possible though. >_>

ScarfChomp isn't all too scary to me.

 

[Lesha]

Garchomp can be rather a pain to deal with, but I think most people have stated that it can be stopped. I absolutely with a passion hate having to face Suicune as it is such a pain for most of my teams to fight. I would love to see it go, but like Garchomp, I don't expect to see it go any time soon as there is always the large following of a certain OU that will defend it to death, and it is , like Garchomp, a royal pain, but is still certainly beatable.

 

[rokuta]

I don't know why people complain about Garchomp. He is covered by any good team. I use:
Scarf Abomashow (100% blizzard)
Band Mamoswine
Band Weavie
HP ice Bronzong
Cress
Deoxys
Garchomp can usually only kill one of my pokes before I take it down. I don't have to worry about covering Garchomp at all.
He is so easy to revenge kill. No smart Garchomp user would ever switch out.
The problem is all of those other threatening OU pokes.
But look at all the space I have on my team to run my own strategy

 

[IggyBot]

I didn't plan on posting in this thread, but after re-reading it, I want to stop this usless comparing of Gyarados and Garchomp.

1.) Gyarados and Garchomp aren't similar enough to be compared, as they fill very different roles in a team. Gyarados, with it's typing and Intimidate, makes a great switch into physical attackers, and makes for a great defensive addition to teams as well. Not that Garchomp isn't bulky, but it's definitly not used the same way as Gyarados in the majority of cases.

2.) Gyarados gets Dragon Dance, Garchomp gets Swords Dance. So Gyarados boosts speed and attack +1 each turn. Garchomp doubles his attack, but already has that imporant 102 base speed. Garchomp also has a 100, and 120 base power STAB attack, both with 100% accuracy. Gyarados's strongest STAB attack is 90 BP with 90 accuracy.

And with the former I need to be able to handle all combinations of attacks, Waterfall with Stone Edge, EQ, or Ice Fang. Hell some even run Bite now to deal with Slowbro and Starmie

This brings me to my third point. Gyarados doesn't have the same type coverage. Unless I missed some big update, Gyarados isn't going to be using Taunt, Waterfall, Earthquake, Bite, Ice Fang, Stone Edge and Aqua Tail on the same set. So your Starmie is hit with bite? That means that Gyarados is missing Ice Fang, send in Garchomp to take it. You don't need a counter that can handle every possible combination of attacks, because if Gyarados is running one set, that opens it up to be beaten by other pokemon. If it's missing Stone Edge, Zapdos does great. Missing Bite? Starmie is your hero. Ice Fang-less Gyarados is easily beaten by Celebi.

But you're STILL in luck! Guess what, Porygon2 is a 100% counter to Gyarados! The strongest thing Gyarados can muster against Porygon2 is a 3HKO with a Life Orb'd, max attack Aqua Tail. And if you're using that specific set, Porygon2 does 92%-109% with Thunderbolt, so you're shit out of luck. This can't be said for Garchomp, considering even 252 Def / 252 HP Cresselia and Hippowdon can be 2HKO'd by a CB Outrage.

Gyara doesn't have the speed to effectively run Choice Band for anything more than a surprise

Gengar - Sleep absorber, anything with a decent attack, Gengar is countered because it has weak defenses, and it is often scarfed and thus locked into one move. Also quite predictable...and...BLISSEY!

TTar - HIPPOWDON! Tar is really really slow, and lots of things can deal with it on predicted attacks, revenge kills, etc...

Lucario - needs Specs or Life Orb to do respectable damage, lots of relatively bulky guys (i.e: Bronzong) can stop him by taking a hit (omg you can even PREDICT and take a resisted ES!!!) and then KOing. Residual damage hurts, and anything faster with the ability to take an ES wins.

Get some experience before posting this shit. You talk like you know what you're saying, but you clearly don't. Gyarados is a very effective Choice Band pokemon, and actually maxes out at a very respectable 287 speed. No, it doesn't have the 2HKO power of CB Garchomp or Heracross, but that doesn't make it not effective, especially considering Gyarados makes a very good switch into threats as I said earlier.

If you think Gengar is predictable, then you must get fucked over quite a bit. While there are obviously popular sets, Gengar is far from predictable, and Blissey is not a 100% counter, with Hypnosis, Substitute, Focus Punch and Focus Blast all attacks in Gengars aresenal.

Hippowdon beats physical Tyranitar sets, but not mixed or special. All it takes is 96 SpA EVs and an Expert Belt for Mixtar to 2HKO Hippowdon with Ice Beam.

There are very few pokemon that aren't OHKO'd by SD Lucario. Bronzong isn't one of them. Gyarados, Salamence, Cresselia, Hippowdon and Gliscor make good counters to SD Lucario (depending on the 4th attack), but they're all utterly destroyed by Specs Lucario.

I don't know what other comments have been made, as I haven't read the whole thread yet, I wanted to respond to these before I forgot about them.

 

[omgthatkid]

I think Garchomp is the most threatening in the Metagame.
ScarfChomp destroys things with its speed.
BandChomp destroys things with its raw power.
BrightPowderChomp is hard to hit and hits hard.
I don't really prepare for it much.
I guess I should...
I think my only decent counters are Zapdos and possibly Scizor.
Heatran if it's choiced.
And I love using Choice Band Garchomp. It's quite a handy sweeper.

 

[Angel Diva]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
Not exactly dramatically, but at least I know I can take more risks and use less ice attacks.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
Unfortunately, yes. I have to put at least 3 things with ice attacks to make sure he doesn't sweep my team.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
Already answered by the above question.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
Obviously, with almost all the HP's being ice type. FFS HP Ice on Bronzong and Celebi? This is getting really ridiculous.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.
No. I never really had many problems countering things like Gyara or Lucario. But Garchomp, is a big headache for my(and most other) teams.

And I totally agree with IggyBot. Gyarados is so much easier to counter than Garchomp. If it taunts, it means only 2 attacks. If the second attack is ice fang, waters can handle it. If the second attack is EQ, grasses and Salamence/Dragonite will take care of it. If it's stone edge, most grasses and bulky waters can still handle it. Fighters also get to switch in on Stone Edge. If it's bite, then anything bulky or resists water and not weak to dark will deal with it. If it has no taunt, then use t-wave/WoW/roar/reflect/whirlwind.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

The thing is, if Deoxys-E had been proven to be as dominating as Garchomp, we'd've moved it straight back to ubers. And I hate to say this, but I have a feeling that if Garchomp was a legendary, and he was, say, banned from the Battle Tower in-game, it would be uber right now.

I actually don't think it should be uber, but I would be very interested to have a month without Garchomp, just to see what it's like.

 

[Kittymew]

Garchomp on its own is not what is making Standard a 20-pokemon metagame. Garchomp is just one of the problems. Personally, I think UU/BL with a few specific OU allowed would make for a much more interesting and balanced format than anything we're currently playing. Don't based it on usage statistics, use real design principles and analysis instead. If anyone wants to try, I can help with the system analysis, I'm good at that.

 

[D3FAULT]

Garchomp on its own is not what is making Standard a 20-pokemon metagame. Garchomp is just one of the problems. Personally, I think UU/BL with a few specific OU allowed would make for a much more interesting and balanced format than anything we're currently playing. Don't based it on usage statistics, use real design principles and analysis instead. If anyone wants to try, I can help with the system analysis, I'm good at that.

This.

I always thought that we they should re-name the tiers, and instead of basing them on usage, base them on stats/abilities/move pools/type coverage/survivability, etc. I just don't see it happening though. This isn't the thread for the discussion though*. Regardless, I agree.

(*Maybe a thread about this should be made? I doubt it would gain enough traction for it to change anything, but it can't hurt too much to try. At least we could get some opinions on the matter.)