Garchomp and this Metagame

[Mr.E]

Ah, but why would you miss Garchomp...?

 

[lilyhollow]

that's not his point and you know it >_>

if sand veil is broken then people should be complaining about froslass, glaceon, and especially gliscor. They aren't, and this is because Garchomp is already ridiculously powerful with or without sand veil.

 

[Shigen]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
Dear god, no. I might consider replacing Milotic with Vaporeon, but I doubt I would do even that. I don't even have a steel-type right now.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
A little bit, but not too much. Without him, I might replace My Deoxys's Ice beam with Psychic, though
3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?
My plan is to outspeed it and kill it. All of my team but gliscor does this, so more than 1, I suppose. Milotic doesn't outspeed it, but crushes any set without a Yache berry.

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
It causes Ice moves on a lot more pokes. It also makes CounterStar get played more

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.
Deoxys is more centralizing, Gengar and Wobbufet are more threatening, and Lucario is pretty bad as well. It forced me to run gliscor or die.

 

[Shigen]

if sand veil is broken then people should be complaining about froslass, glaceon, and especially gliscor. They aren't, and this is because Garchomp is already ridiculously powerful with or without sand veil.

Yeah, but the reason it's so bad on Garchomp is that unlike those, Garchomp sweeps powerfully. None of those outright kill you if you miss, and you get to attack them again usually. And don't bring up Dugtrio, cause people do bitch about Orbtrio with Sand veil

 

[Mr.E]

that's not his point and you know it >_>

if sand veil is broken then people should be complaining about froslass, glaceon, and especially gliscor. They aren't, and this is because Garchomp is already ridiculously powerful with or without sand veil.

Sand Veil is broken; there's a reason evasion moves are banned in standard play and Sand Veil is basically a free Double Team. (Brightpowder requires taking up your item slot and works half as well too, much more balanced.) However, it's only broken because Sand Stream allows it to be broken. Snow Warning/Hail is a much less forgiving weather condition than SS and extremely difficult to build successfully around. Just because Gliscor is defensive and thus generally won't punish you so severely for missing at the wrong time doesn't make Sand Veil any less broken on it. (And really, Gliscor can screw you over pretty well if it's the BP variety and gets a Swords Dance over to something faster and stronger.)

And no that wasn't his point, but that's essentially what it turned into. Plenty of pokémon can put out Garchomp-level damage but Garchomp itself is the only one dodging Ice Beams and Outrages. Garchomp isn't arguably broken solely because of the damage it puts out.

 

[Near]

I think that before someone said that we should only ban a Pokemon when it's used to its greatest potential, or something along those lines, and that we shouldn't ban individual items/moves on a Pokemon. Using hat logic, Garchomp should be banned and not the Pokemon that cause Sandstream (Tyranitar, Hippowdon) because Sandstream by itself isn't broken but only when combined with Garchomp and his Sand Veil ability.

But I'm not saying that this is the sole reason I think Garchomp is broken. However, it's definately one of the larger factors.

I'll try to find the original post, since I believe they explained it in a much clearer way. It may've been in the OHKO, Double Team, and Garchomp discussion topic.

 

[Drift]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how? Not dramatically, no. I'd might change some items and moves, but not the Pokemon themselves.
2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building? I take it into main consideration, so in a way, yes. But I try and take EVERYTHING into consideration, and break things up into categories. However, Garchomp has it's own category... So I suppose so, but it's only because a great deal of people seem to use one now, and if you're not prepared for one, then... Well yeah. <.<
3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it? I do, but it wasn't exactly planned.
4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon? I'd say so. There are some pretty nice Pokemon out there that I'm sure people are afraid to use just because of Chomp.
5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp? Well, sure. I don't have any specific examples, but there are more things that threaten me than just Chomp, but it also depends on the situation.

Just answering the survey thing. ._.;
​

 

[Volarion]

1: Would your teams change dramatically if Garchomp never existed and if so, how?
Dramatically? Not a chance because there are several other pokemon with stats similar to Garchomp that will still pose a large threat--pokemon like Salamence and Dragonite that are countered with methods similar to those that counter Garchomp. I will most probably make minor changes, yes, but I doubt I will even change pokemon on most of my teams.

2: Do you find yourself preparing for Garchomp more than other Pokemon when team building?
Again, perhaps these are my individual circumstances, but I happen to find myself in more of a bind when faced by some other massive threats that don't happen to have such large defenses (and such beneficial abilities), namely Gyarados and Infernape. I add that since Garchomp, dragonite and salamence have similar statistics and weaknesses, combatting one can be combatting all three.

3: Do you have more than one way of dealing with Garchomp on your teams or do you have exactly 1 counter or 1 way of dealing with it?

Surprisingly, I can get away with having just 1 ice move on some of my teams and still effectively counter Garchomp. Since the physcial variant is FAR more prevalent than others, I don't think that the ability to counter all variants should be stressed more by team buiders than concentrating on other threats. It does take a bit of improvisation, however, when I come accross a chainchomp (if ever).

4: Does Garchomp impact the popularity of certain sets or Pokemon?
Defnitely ice attacks. I still think that ice is a very good attacking type just because so many OU threats are weak to it (at times 4x). I doubt the popularity of ice attacks would decrease much if Garchomp is removed from the metagame.

5: Do you think there is any other Pokemon nearly as threatening or centralizing in the metagame as Garchomp.
I don't think Garchomp is necessarily the MOST threatening pokemon at all times. As with any top OU threat, it takes skill and prediction to take one out and a good player can really put the pressure on the defender; at times a +2 att Garchomp is nearly unbeatable. That said, the definition of centralization is really a moot point. I believe that there are several pokemon on the top 10 OU that are nearly as much of a threat of garchomp. THis is of couse simply my opinion, but I think the 4x ice weakness is enough to anchor Garchomp firmly in OU. The sand veil can get annoying though.



​

 

[Bourbon]

Plenty of pokémon can put out Garchomp-level damage

This is completely false. There is no other pokemon that can put out Garchomp level damage.

Here is a list of non-uber pokemon with 394 attack or higher:

Rampardos
Slaking
Regigigas
Rhyperior
Salamence
Tyranitar
Metagross
Dragonite
Machamp
Kingler
Flareon
Scizor
Ursaring
Breloom
Absol
Garchomp
Mamoswine

And here is a list of pokemon with 333 speed or higher:

Deoxys-E
Ninjask
Electrode
Jolteon
Crobat
Aerodactyl
Swellow
Weavile
Dugtrio
Alakazam
Sceptile
Persian
Starmie
Raikou
Floatzel
Ambipom
Purugly
Tauros
Gengar
Jumpluff
Espeon
Froslass
Infernape
Rapidash
Scyther
Manectric
Lopunny
Mismagius
Garchomp

OU pokemon are bolded.
Members with Swords Dance are underlined.

Huh, I see a trend. Look at how few of the "high attack" Pokemon get swords dance. Now look at how none of them are even remotely speedy, Kingler and Absol being the second fastest. Note how none of them are even close to Garchomp's speed, or have good movepools (absol uses rock smash!) or high power moves. Absol gets Sucker Punch, Kingler gets Crabhammer.



Garchomp is the only pokemon with 394 attack, a 180 base power move and the ability to double it's power in one turn. No pokemon can boast this ability. The closest is Porygon-Z, who has mediocre defenses, low speed and poor defensive typing.

In fact, Jolly Garchomp's Swords Dance Outrage does a whole 9% more than Timid Porygon-Zs Nasty Plot Adaptability Tri Attack, the strongest special hit in the game. No physical wall approaches Blissey's level of toughness either, so Garchomp literally 2HKOs everything in the entire game, no questions asked.

Couple that with his ridiculous STAB combination and 333 speed, and you've got a monster on your hands. Even without Sand Veil, Garchomp is no doubt the best sweeper in the game. Not only is it "uncounterable" but with Yache Berry it can beat most pokemon one on one.


I am getting tired of newer inexperienced members just spouting off garbage such as "ICE > CHOMP", "chomp is same as salamence and dragonite" and "weavile counters it"

If you don't know what you are talking about, don't say anything. Obviously you haven't gotten high enough in the ladder to see skilled players using Garchomp the way it's meant to be used. Either that, or you've been playing Wifi where every team has a PBR Electivire, Magmortar, and their starter on the team. That's not true competitive battling.

 

[Mr.E]

"This is completely false. There is no other pokemon that can put out Garchomp level damage.
...
Garchomp is the only pokemon with 394 attack, a 180 base power move and the ability to double it's power in one turn."

Whoa there, buddy! Bronzong is the only pokémon with 331 Defense, a variable power Steel move and the ability to pass both Reflect and Light Screen!

The point is you cherrypicked a set of characteristics that only Garchomp could possibly fit and act as if it's some sort of grand revelation. It sounds silly. Heracross, Lucario, and Infernape all come rather close to matching such figures at any rate. (And really, 394 Attack? How did Garchomp manage to get both 333 Speed and 394 Attack?) Heck, Infernape even has access to both Swords Dance and Nasty Plot and is faster. And you're still putting too much stock in Swords Dance and Garchomp's not all that I'm-basically-a-299-speeder-that-doesn't-tie-with-other-299-speeders Speed. Type coverage is also in favor of many other attackers, allowing them to deal additional damage that doesn't show up via raw stats. (Only the other Dragons have similarly poor type coverage.)

"In fact, Jolly Garchomp's Swords Dance Outrage does a whole 9% more than Timid Porygon-Zs Nasty Plot Adaptability Tri Attack, the strongest special hit in the game.."

Durka durrrr, Hyper Beam? Tri Attack is more comparable to Dragon Claw, the weaker of Garchomp's Dragon options without the nasty drawback.

"If you don't know what you are talking about, don't say anything. Obviously you haven't gotten high enough in the ladder to see skilled players using Garchomp the way it's meant to be used."

I'm not starting to play pokémon again just to "prove" something to a random.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Type coverage is also in favor of many other attackers, allowing them to deal additional damage that doesn't show up via raw stats. (Only the other Dragons have similarly poor type coverage.)

Really? There isn't better type coverage than Dragon/Ground/Fire...especially when you consider that Garchomp doesn't need type coverage because it 2hkos everything after only one turn of setup.

Durka durrrr, Hyper Beam? Tri Attack is more comparable to Dragon Claw, the weaker of Garchomp's Dragon options without the nasty drawback.

I wouldn't call being stuck in a 180 power move with a 20% evasion rate a really "nasty" drawback. It can be one, sure, but most of the time it isn't a drawback at all. At least its not even close the the drawbacks of Hyper Beam, which doesn't even let you attack.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Really?

Adaptability Tri-Attack has 160 Base Power, while Outrage has 180. Porygon-Z is possibly the most powerful special attacker in the game, backed by a Nasty Plot, but it's stuck with bad defenses, mediocre speed, and awful defensive typing. Garchomp has none of those drawbacks, and arguably all of the upsides. I'd say it's a pretty accurate comparison.

As for Garchomp-level damage, he's absolutely right. Nothing hits as hard as Garchomp in OU. The "cherry-picked statistics" are exactly how you calculate Garchomp's damage potential- its attack stat, its strongest attack, and its best boosting move. Nothing else comes close.

 

[IggyBot]

][/i]...Garchomp is the only pokemon with 394 attack, a 180 base power move and the ability to double it's power in one turn."

Whoa there, buddy! Bronzong is the only pokémon with 331 Defense, a variable power Steel move and the ability to pass both Reflect and Light Screen!

Well, if you're trying to compare pokemon to Garchomp, then what he said is right. There is no other pokemon that can be put on the same level. It could be the unique speed tier, the massive attack, Swords Dance, the unique STAB/type coverage, the defenses, or the ability, there is SOMETHING that sets Garchomp ahead of every other attack in OU. You're trying to compare damage output, and the fact is that their are only a couple of pokemon that do comparable damage to Garchomp. These would be Porygon-Z and Lucario. They would actually do MORE damage that Garchomp, simply because Garchomp is not normally carrying a Life Orb. But isn't there more to this comparison than damage output?

Speed is certainly a huge factor in determining damage output. Garchomp is faster than both Porygon-Z and Lucario, which means that it will hit more pokemon before they hit Garchomp then Porygon-Z and Lucario will. This makes Garchomp's damage output actually higher.

Infernape, while capable of dealing huge amounts of damage, is a different type of attacker (and by this, I don't mean Infernape is a mixed attacker compared to Garchomp as a physical attacking force), Infernape utilizes it's equally good special attack and attacking stats to surprise and keep opponents on their toes. In terms of sweeping, Infernape is certainly good. In terms of pure damage output, I wouldn't stick Infernape and Garchomp on the same level, unless you want to talk about Nasty Plot + Overheat.

Durka durrrr, Hyper Beam? Tri Attack is more comparable to Dragon Claw, the weaker of Garchomp's Dragon options without the nasty drawback.

I would actually think that Earthquake (something that Garchomp also gets STAB on) is more comparable to Tri-Attack than Dragon Claw.

 

[Mr.E]

Dragon and Normal both hit mostly neutral and are the primary attack types of Garchomp and Porygon-Z, respectively. Garchomp's EQ is mainly for Steel type coverage and a few other tough cookies, like Tyranitar.

"Well, if you're trying to compare pokemon to Garchomp, then what he said is right. There is no other pokemon that can be put on the same level. It could be the unique speed tier, the massive attack, Swords Dance, the unique STAB/type coverage, the defenses, or the ability, there is SOMETHING that sets Garchomp ahead of every other attack in OU...

Speed is certainly a huge factor in determining damage output. Garchomp is faster than both Porygon-Z and Lucario, which means that it will hit more pokemon before they hit Garchomp then Porygon-Z and Lucario will..."

Obviously true. Garchomp is very strong overall, what I take issue with is the whole, "Only Garchomp has X, Y, and Z characteristics. Overpowered!" Any pokémon can be uniquely described by two or three specific characteristics. That doesn't mean they're overpowered, it just "is." Garchomp IS ______.

Garchomp's Speed is, quite frankly, overrated. Lucario and PZ typically take up +Speed natures to outspeed the 299 crowd, who rarely take up a +Speed nature themselves in this metagame. The biggest perk of Garchomp's extra Speed is that it can match... itself, which is hardly a valid point of contention. In most cases, the same things that will outspeed Lucario would also outspeed Garchomp. In EVERY case, the only difference between Garchomp's Speed and the 100 base crowd is that it can match other Garchomp. (It also won't tie the 100 Basers, but getting lucky on 50/50 shots doesn't exactly scream broken.)

Swords Dance and Sand Veil are the major points of contention I hear repeated throughout the topic. "He's too strong! OMG my counter missed and it swept me! etc." I'm not going to go over for the hundredth time why the Dragon Dance carried by most all comparable attackers (Gyarados, Dragonite, Salamence, Tyranitar) is just as dangerous and I've already conceded the power of Sand Veil.

Adaptability Tri-Attack has 160 Base Power, while Outrage has 180. Porygon-Z is possibly the most powerful special attacker in the game, backed by a Nasty Plot, but it's stuck with bad defenses, mediocre speed, and awful defensive typing. Garchomp has none of those drawbacks...

These are drawbacks to PZ itself, not TA/DC vs. HB/Outrage; of course Garchomp is the better pokémon in general.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Dragon and Normal both hit mostly neutral and are the primary attack types of Garchomp and Porygon-Z, respectively. Garchomp's EQ is mainly for Steel type coverage and a few other tough cookies, like Tyranitar.

Except that Normal is an awful attacking type in D/P, whereas Dragon is not. Earthquake and Fire Fang are the perfect compliments to it, and it doesn't have to sacrifice anything in order to acheive perfect type coverage.

Obviously true. Garchomp is very strong overall, what I take issue with is the whole, "Only Garchomp has X, Y, and Z characteristics. Overpowered!" Any pokémon can be uniquely described by two or three specific characteristics. That doesn't mean they're overpowered, it just "is." Garchomp IS ______.

Garchomp's characteristics make it overpowered, since only Garchomp boasts all of those useful characteristics without the obvious drawbacks of things like Lucario and Porygon-Z. Garchomp has the offensive potential of Luke and P-Z, that is a decent comparison...but it ALSO has defenses comparable to Swampert's...its stab is unresisted except by 2 pokemon that still get 2hkod..it sweeps with only one turn of setup...then with Sand Veil blah blah... Just because every pokemon is unique doesnt mean that Garchomp's unique characteristics dont make it overpowered. I can't believe youre trying to trivialize the entire argument by saying "every pokemon is unique so this one isn't overpowered!!" How are Garchomp's unique characteristics not significant?

Obviously every pokemon is unique. Its Garchomp's unique characteristics that make him overpowered since nothing can even hold a candle to it in OU, which should be fairly obvious to anybody that has actually played in the last 10 months.

Garchomp's Speed is, quite frankly, overrated. Lucario and PZ typically take up +Speed natures to outspeed the 299 crowd, who rarely take up a +Speed nature themselves in this metagame. The biggest perk of Garchomp's extra Speed is that it can match... itself, which is hardly a valid point of contention. In most cases, the same things that will outspeed Lucario would also outspeed Garchomp. In EVERY case, the only difference between Garchomp's Speed and the 100 base crowd is that it can match other Garchomp. (It also won't tie the 100 Basers, but getting lucky on 50/50 shots doesn't exactly scream broken.)

Tieing in speed with the #1 most used pokemon in the game is overrated? lol. If that was actually true, you wouldn't be the only person to think that.

Matching other Garchomp is worth it, every single time. Have you even played in the last year? How could you possibly post something like "garchomps unique speed tier is overrated" and expect anybody to buy it?

Swords Dance and Sand Veil are the major points of contention I hear repeated throughout the topic. "He's too strong! OMG my counter missed and it swept me! etc." I'm not going to go over for the hundredth time why the Dragon Dance carried by most all comparable attackers (Gyarados, Dragonite, Salamence, Tyranitar) is just as dangerous and I've already conceded the power of Sand Veil.

Dragon Dance is NOT just as dangerous as SD, and this is obvious because nobody is saying that DDGyara or DDMence is broken, just SDChomp. You can go over dd vs sd all you want, but the simple fact is that its irrelevant. If DDmence were actually more dangerous than SDChomp, it would actually be used. If you really believe what you posted...then I don't even know what to say other than "lol". It's getting frustrating trying to explain all of this to you when you clearly have no comprehension of how the game is actually played.

 

[grizzly bear]

Fuck sand veil is all I have to say about this matter.

 

[umbarsc]

Speed is certainly a huge factor in determining damage output. Garchomp is faster than both Porygon-Z and Lucario, which means that it will hit more pokemon before they hit Garchomp then Porygon-Z and Lucario will. This makes Garchomp's damage output actually higher.

Um, ExtremeSpeed/Bullet Punch? Not to mention that no one will send in a slower Pokemon to Garchomp after their counter is dead unless they have no faster Pokemon (or it's a bulky Steel coming in on Outrage).

Fuck sand veil is all I have to say about this matter.

Then why say anything at all?

 

[IggyBot]

Um, ExtremeSpeed/Bullet Punch? Not to mention that no one will send in a slower Pokemon to Garchomp after their counter is dead unless they have no faster Pokemon (or it's a bulky Steel coming in on Outrage).

Lucario is forced to used either a 80 or 60 BP attack with terrible type coverage to hit everything faster than it. Garchomp already outspeeds a huge number of pokemon in the game (I have the exact percentage somewhere, I'll find it) and the number of pokemon that outspeed Garchomp compared to the number of pokemon that outspeed Lucario is a pretty big number.

Garchomp's Speed is, quite frankly, overrated. Lucario and PZ typically take up +Speed natures to outspeed the 299 crowd, who rarely take up a +Speed nature themselves in this metagame. The biggest perk of Garchomp's extra Speed is that it can match... itself, which is hardly a valid point of contention. In most cases, the same things that will outspeed Lucario would also outspeed Garchomp. In EVERY case, the only difference between Garchomp's Speed and the 100 base crowd is that it can match other Garchomp. (It also won't tie the 100 Basers, but getting lucky on 50/50 shots doesn't exactly scream broken.)

It's not the fact that Garchomp outspeeds base 100's in my opinion, it's the fact that Garchomp will never have to risk a tie (except against other Garchomp). Garchomp will either outspeed the pokemon, or be outsped. That's it. That's what makes the unique speed tier on ANY pokemon so valuable in my opinion.

 

[umbarsc]

Lucario is forced to used either a 80 or 60 BP attack with terrible type coverage to hit everything faster than it. Garchomp already outspeeds a huge number of pokemon in the game (I have the exact percentage somewhere, I'll find it) and the number of pokemon that outspeed Garchomp compared to the number of pokemon that outspeed Lucario is a pretty big number.

Saying it "has to" doesn't make any sense, because it's beneficial to it. That's what makes it harder to revenge-kill than Garchomp. Garchomp doesn't "have to" use it to outspeed +speed Salamence and timid Zapdos, but it doesn't "get to" use it against everything faster.

Lucario outspeeds most of the Base 100 speed Pokemon, as most of the common ones are defensive (Zapdos, Celebi, Jirachi). With a +Speed nature it will almost always be outspeeding them, as very few will run a +Speed nature.

Not to mention Lucario's sweep is stopped by more things. (Salamence/Dragonite/Garchomp/Gyarados/Gliscor)

If it's in the late-game, if Salamence doesn't have Roost it won't really be stopping his sweep if it's switching in to Stealth Rock unless it just showed itself to stop Lucario. Dragonite doesn't even have Intimidate and is slower, and Gyarados is as well, leaving them both open to Stone Edge or even Extremespeed (especially Dragonite). Gliscor fine (I could argue HP Ice but that's not exactly common on SD Lucario). Sending Garchomp out against Lucario is a waste as it could just ExtremeSpeed, which beats you if you Swords Dance, and if you Earthquake it will allow your counter to bypass its Yache Berry.

 

[grizzly bear]

Um, ExtremeSpeed/Bullet Punch? Not to mention that no one will send in a slower Pokemon to Garchomp after their counter is dead unless they have no faster Pokemon (or it's a bulky Steel coming in on Outrage).



I don't think that's an accurate comparison. The two aforementioned Dragon Dancers are weak to Stealth Rock and take Sandstorm damage, plus will be running Life Orb often on top of all of that. SD and DD are dangerous in different ways. SD will shit all over slower walls, whereas DD is dangerous for offensive teams and late-game sweeps.



Then why say anything at all?

the fuck does it matter to you?

 

[Brawley]

If it's in the late-game, if Salamence doesn't have Roost it won't really be stopping his sweep if it's switching in to Stealth Rock unless it just showed itself to stop Lucario. Dragonite doesn't even have Intimidate and is slower, and Gyarados is as well, leaving them both open to Stone Edge or even Extremespeed (especially Dragonite). Gliscor fine (I could argue HP Ice but that's not exactly common on SD Lucario). Sending Garchomp out against Lucario is a waste as it could just ExtremeSpeed, which beats you if you Swords Dance, and if you Earthquake it will allow your counter to bypass its Yache Berry.

Salamence isnt koed after stealth rock because it has intimidate and can just eq, dragonite isnt koed either and can earthquake, fire punch, or dd, and garchomp always survives and sd extreemespeed, also Im talking about the standard SD Lucario.

 

[umbarsc]

Stone Edge is a standard option on SD Lucario. Just because something isn't listed on Smogon doesn't mean it isn't standard.

And how is Garchomp broken if it's going to be at 30% when it's countered (assuming it takes the SD ExtremeSpeed)? I've never had a huge problem with Garchomp because it almost never will be in perfect situations.

 

[IggyBot]

Saying it "has to" doesn't make any sense, because it's beneficial to it. That's what makes it harder to revenge-kill than Garchomp. Garchomp doesn't "have to" use it to outspeed +speed Salamence and timid Zapdos, but it doesn't "get to" use it against everything faster.

Lucario outspeeds most of the Base 100 speed Pokemon, as most of the common ones are defensive (Zapdos, Celebi, Jirachi). With a +Speed nature it will almost always be outspeeding them, as very few will run a +Speed nature.

My previous post outlines why outspeeding base 100's isn't why Garchomp's unique speed tier is so powerful.

Forcing Lucario to use a low BP attack to hit the number of pokemon that outspeed it (which is quite a large number) is a disadvantage compared to Garchomp, who's naturally higher speed is much better. Only 7 OU pokemon currently outspeed Garchomp, while 13 pokemon outspeed Lucario. Basically, 16% of OU outspeeds Garchomp, while 30% will outspeed Lucario.

If Lucario had the speed Garchomp had, I'm positive that it would much rather use Close Combat / Crunch / Stone Edge or Hidden Power Ice along with Swords Dance instead of Extremespeed/Bullet Punch. The difference between being forced to use a priority attack, and having the option of a priority attack is huge.

The other reason Extreme Speed/Bullet Punch is a disadvantage to Lucario is because unless the faster pokemon is switching into the attack, it lacks the power needed to actually OHKO quite a few of the pokmon that outspeed it, including Salamence, Mamoswine, Yanmega, Garchomp, Starmie, Dragonite, and Gengar. Bullet Punch has a 75% chance of OHKOing Gengar without Stealth Rock, and will OHKO Mamoswine, but that leaves you potentially vurnable to Deoxys-E, Infernape, Electivire and Jolteon.

I really don't see how being forced to use a priority attack to "make up" for low speed is an advantage to Lucario when comparing it to Garchomp in terms of "power".

 

[Fatality]

Like umbsarc just said: almost never in a perfect situation.

How often do you face 100% HP +2 Garchomp (Yache still there)? And if you do, then you lose 2 pokes to kill it... (at most)

 

[umbarsc]

That's where I would disagree. If Garchomp had ExtremeSpeed I would be using it.

Saying 30% of OU outspeeds Lucario is inaccurate. How many Timid 252 Celebi have you encountered? Most Salamence will be Modest/Adamant and will be outsped by Jolly Lucario. Celebi/Jirachi/Zapdos/Tentacruel are almost always Bold/Impish with maybe minor speed investment. Even with an Adamant nature it still will outspeed the latter four.

These Pokemon CAN outspeed Lucario. But rarely will. For a truly accurate measurement we'd have to see how often these Pokemon run enough speed to outspeed Lucario (courtesy of Doug's statistics), but I'd be willing to bet it's fairly low.

ExtremeSpeed may be a burden when you lose a moveslot that could be used for better coverage, but then your opinion would turn around when Infernape comes out to Close Combat you, or Jolteon for Thunderbolt. If Lucario had 102 base speed I still think it would use ExtremeSpeed, as that is its main selling point.