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Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.

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I hate Garchomp, doesn't mean I think he's broken. I think he's good, and he can be used well. I've had trouble against Garchomp. I've never, however, been in danger of being 6-0'd. I'm sure that more than 5% of Smogon are going to think that Garchomp isn't broken.
 
Yeah, but can't Togekiss hax even easier than that? The hax isn't even 1/5 with Togekiss, it's 3/5, which is quite unfair.

Really, against something like ScarfKiss, it can't be reliably countered, because of most of the stuff you just said.
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Agreed, if this is about a Poke haxxing its potential counters, Togekiss trumps Garchomp any day of the week. Flying/Fighting is only resisted by Zapdos (and Rotom but its defenses are a little low to be taking NP'd Air Slashes.) Togekiss has defenses about equal to Garchomp, along with a reliable recovery move that negates most of its weaknesses. Most of the Pokemon immune to flinching cannot switch in saftely (Lucario, Gallade, Alakazam) and Dragonite gets screwed by T-Wave anyway. So Togekiss really only has one counter(Zapdos), and it and any other Pokes that can stand up to Togekiss can be flinched to death rather easily. Now I'm not suggesting Togekiss be moved to ubers(though I would be overjoyed at the removal of that luck-based tramp), but Garchomp's Sand Veil is not the most luck-based ability oin the game, nor the most broken.

And 95% is an arbitrary and likely inaccurate number for people "hating" Garchomp
 
Could a Bronzong (with Levitate) with a Fire Resist Berry, and Max HP/Special Defense switch in on a Garchomp's EQ/Outrage/Crunch/Stone Edge and then stay in to take a Fire Fang/Blast and counter it back with HP ICE/Explosion?

Additionally Will Bronzong take less than 33% or less damage on the switch in from a fire move to counter it back with Explosion/Hp Ice?
 
Max HP/Special Defense Sassy Bronzong takes 34-40% from an Adamant 0 Atk, Garchomp Outrage, and 57-66% from the same Adamant 252 Special Attack Garchomp Fire Blast the next turn. On the flip side, HP Ice does only about 53-63% back. HP Ice isn't a good attack. Gyro Ball does less. It takes a good Explosion.
 
Remember, the berry reduces the Fire attack from 57-66% to 27-33%, and Bronzong uses Explosion. Additionally, it cannot switch from Outrage to Fire Fang/Blast unless it has been the 2nd or third turn, in which it gets confused and only has a 50% chance to attack.

Hmm I guess the best Bronzong counter would be:

252 EVs Hp, 128 Def, 128 SP. Def. (+Defense, - Sp. Attack) Nature, @ The Fire Resist Berry.

Trick Room
Rest
Explosion
Hypnosis

So that way it can switch into a 252 Ev Attack Adament Garchomp's Outrage and use TRoom+Explosion on it (taking 1 hit on the switch and another the turn it uses TRoom, then explodes), or switch into a Fire Fang/Fire Blast (using the berry up), and survive the fire attack the next turn as it TRoom+Explodes.

I think I just discovered a Garchomp counter! (And if they use Life Orb/Cband then simply adjust the EVs if you guys feel there is a better Surivability in a different EV Spread)
 
Its the same as a Gengar who uses Destiny Bond, it does have a purpose.

I only sugg. Explosion b/c Gyro Ball/Hp Ice doesn't cut it, and plus even after dieing Bronzong aids your team with TRoom, which means it doesn't die for little purpose.

Otherwise you can risk a 70% accuracy Hypnosis, which can I guess be seen as a "Counter" for disabling it.
 
-Cynthia- said:
Agreed, if this is about a Poke haxxing its potential counters, Togekiss trumps Garchomp any day of the week. Flying/Fighting is only resisted by Zapdos (and Rotom but its defenses are a little low to be taking NP'd Air Slashes.) Togekiss has defenses about equal to Garchomp, along with a reliable recovery move that negates most of its weaknesses. Most of the Pokemon immune to flinching cannot switch in saftely (Lucario, Gallade, Alakazam) and Dragonite gets screwed by T-Wave anyway. So Togekiss really only has one counter(Zapdos), and it and any other Pokes that can stand up to Togekiss can be flinched to death rather easily. Now I'm not suggesting Togekiss be moved to ubers(though I would be overjoyed at the removal of that luck-based tramp), but Garchomp's Sand Veil is not the most luck-based ability oin the game, nor the most broken.

And 95% is an arbitrary and likely inaccurate number for people "hating" Garchomp
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I totally agree with cynthia on this and last person who posted about togekiss. Luck is the matter of who has more luck, obviously Togekiss has more having mainly the same defenses and probally better offensive typing as well as the flinch rate, which is more than sand veil. Togekiss is just as bulky with the problem of being weak to rock and electric and ice, which are all cured, fixed by roost. Garchomp is considered cheap because of its level of usage, compared to togekiss. Togekiss has much more potential to make you angry then garchomp because of flinch and type coverage and abillity to heal. Garchomp is simply used more.
 
I agree, Togekiss is very hard to beat. However, without any speed boosts, it can be outsped so it can't flinch you. With scarf, it lacks power and recovery. If you can avoid Thunderwave via substitute, taunt, or immunity to it, it's not too hard to handle.

Garchomp may be less haxxy, but it hits much harder, and is a lot faster too.
 
Yea, it's a trade off. Arguably, the most devastating thing about Garchomp is that it has a lot of things at once. Not the most haxxy, not the most offensive, not the most defensive - but it it has all of that. That still doesn't make it broken, just good.
 
Its really hard to wall togekiss, and thats what I am going for, salac sub kiss kills teams without special walls, priority moves like extreme speed and ice shard hurt it, not kill, same as garchomp. Togekiss hits just as hard as spdef is generally lower than defense on almost everything.
 
Yeah, true... but Togekiss has to sub down to either 1 HP or 1/4 HP. I'm pretty sure the priority move will finish it at this point. There's no way it's gonna be able to sweep... sub-salac users rarely do (except maybe charizard, because it's not weak to ice shard or mach punch)

Choice Specs Lucario, a very common pokemon, deals 22.19% - 26.20% to a max HP calm togekiss... if it's sub-salac, this is HIGHLY unlikely. To a 0/0 Timid togekiss, it does 29.26% - 34.41%. This isn't even super effective.
 
I don't know if you're damage calculations are completely accurate since I've seen a lot of Garchomps KOed by weaker stats & some Garchomps having a tough time with Hippowdon, Donphan & the like.
It has points of being pretty broken, but a lot of counters were made for such, like Ice Shard for Donphan/Weavile & Ice Fang for Gliscor. Someone gave a point that if 'counters' survive, they guarantee KO since not many/no Garchomp runs Focus Sash & Yache Berry.
 
Wait, what? Are you saying... that the calcs are wrong? Perhaps the garchomps you are speaking of are the naughty mixed ones, or have sucky IVs. Hippowdon and donphan cannot OHKO without significant investment and an item boost.
 
We were talking about how substitute salac togekiss can sweep teams... in order to get a salac boost, you need to be at 25% or lower. well, here's how easy it is to kill:

All calcs were vs max HP calm togekiss.

-Specs Luacrio's Vacuum Wave: 22.19% - 26.20%
-SD Lucario's Extreme Speed: 31.28% - 36.90%
-With a swords dance: 62.03% - 72.99%

Technitop's Fake Out: 16.58% - 19.52%
Technitop's Mach Punch: 24.60% - 28.88%

CBgross's Bullet Punch: 31.28% - 36.63%

CB Weavile's Pursuit: (staying in) 26.20% - 30.75%
CB Weavile's Pursuit: (switching) 52.41% - 61.76%
CB Weavile's Ice Shard: 52.41% - 61.76%

CB Azumarril's Aqua Jet: 33.69% - 39.57%

Honchcrow's Sucker Punch: 39.30% - 46.26%

Life Orb Mamoswine's Ice Shard: 52.41% - 61.76%

Life Orb Ambipom's Fake Out: 33.42% - 39.30%

All pokemon are Adamant except for Weavile... because that's not standard ; )
Those are the most common priority moves seen in the game... there are more, but you probably won't see em in OU.

As you can see, there is no way that most individuals will be swept by subsalac togekiss. Now, "can we kindly stop talking about it" (lol, mekkah) and get back onto topic......
 
Know whats cool? Scarf Abomasnow outruns and OHKOs every singly Garchomp varient except scarfchomp (its faster) and Yache Berry chomp with significant defensive EVs.

Abomasnow Blizzard does 100-110% to YACHE Berry Garchomp.

I have Bronzong to take Scarfchomp.

Vaporeon if it decides to be an ass with Fire Fang.

Nidoqueen survives everything but EQ and hits back with Blizzard.

Hariyama can ruin it with paraylasis from Force Palm, or Whirlwind it out.

Dusknoir survives everything not Swords Danced and hits it hard with Ice Punch.


This is why I see a rise in Hail teams. Anti-Garchomp hype.

Its not that tough. Even my stall team had no trouble with it.

Hell, my NU team took down its share of chomps.
 
[off topic]

Lol, you won't believe this, but Crawdaunt took on a garchomp today. I thought he might Swords Dance on my Tentacruel, so I ice beamed, but he chose EQ and killed me.

I sent out Crawdaunt, and he switched in Gallade, who got OHKOed. He sent in Chomp again, but I took the EQ and killed it with Waterfall... basically just keep the pressure on it, and it can't set up on you. [/ off topic]

BTW, I have an abomasnow, now that you mention it, scarfing it would make it a great garchomp killer (if you can get in on EQ or Swords Dance of course)
 
Most of what can take down Garchomp can take down Rayquaza too, but he's still in the Uber catagory despite being killable. Everything is killable to some degree, it's just a matter of how much of your team you have to devote to it in order to counter it.

Also, Abomasnow would really fit the role of revenge killer moreso than counter, as it can't safely switch in on any attacks as far as I'm aware. It's only safe switch in would be Swords Dance.
 
Dane said:
Most of what can take down Garchomp can take down Rayquaza too, but he's still in the Uber catagory despite being killable. Everything is killable to some degree, it's just a matter of how much of your team you have to devote to it in order to counter it.

Also, Abomasnow would really fit the role of revenge killer moreso than counter, as it can't safely switch in on any attacks as far as I'm aware. It's only safe switch in would be Swords Dance.
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earthquake
 
I take back all I said about Chompy being broken. I am using a UU team currently and even my Claydol can 2hko the thing with Ice beam and it has pretty poor special attack.

Garchomp now seems so easy to bring down.
 
Kira said:
I take back all I said about Chompy being broken. I am using a UU team currently and even my Claydol can 2hko the thing with Ice beam and it has pretty poor special attack.

Garchomp now seems so easy to bring down.
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Of course you can take it down with 2 ice beams. It's x4 damage. That isn't the point. The point is, how are you getting Claydol in and surviving long enough to use ice beam twice?
 
It seems to me that the Garchomp craze is over. I myself haven't seen one for a while. Mabey I get one once a day, mabey... And as far as counters, why not this:

Weavile @ Life Orb/Focus Sash (if you say a counter has to be able to switch in on their attacks too...)
Adamant
252 Atk, 252 Spe, 6 HP
-Fake Out
-Ice Shard
-Pursuit/Night Slash (these last two don't matter for pure 'Anti-Garchomp.)
-Brick Break/Aeriel Ace

Either revenge kill with the Life Orb, or be able to come in with the Focus Sash. First turn you Fake Out to make it even easier to KO with Ice Shard. Then Ice Shard and the magic Garchomp is gone.

I myself don't see why this should be moved to Ubers. This will happen if it does:
-No more Garchomps to kill
-Other Pokémon such as Tyranitar, Dragonite, and Salamence will just take its place

Therefore, I don't see how moving it would help?
 
Blue Harvest said:
Know whats cool? Scarf Abomasnow outruns and OHKOs every singly Garchomp varient except scarfchomp (its faster) and Yache Berry chomp with significant defensive EVs.

Abomasnow Blizzard does 100-110% to YACHE Berry Garchomp.

I have Bronzong to take Scarfchomp.

Vaporeon if it decides to be an ass with Fire Fang.

Nidoqueen survives everything but EQ and hits back with Blizzard.

Hariyama can ruin it with paraylasis from Force Palm, or Whirlwind it out.

Dusknoir survives everything not Swords Danced and hits it hard with Ice Punch.


This is why I see a rise in Hail teams. Anti-Garchomp hype.

Its not that tough. Even my stall team had no trouble with it.

Hell, my NU team took down its share of chomps.
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You are talking about a timid scarf abomnsnow, your not going to be doing that much damage with neutral nature with 92 base spatk, modest scarf reaches 328 speed. So it does kill all the garchomps I use (cough jolly chomps suck). It is a good idea to get rid of its evasion.

Back to the topic of Togekiss, everything faster than it with a super efective move is a threat. Just so happens that Garchomp has the same problem :o. Ice beam and Ice Punch, Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, HP [ice], Outrage. Also anything boosted thats faster hurts both of them. They do have the same bulk about, except garchomp has akward hp and speed, to take advantage of base 100 pokemon. So Garchomp probally is easier to pull off a sweep, but that does not mean it is just as easy to pull off a kiss sweep.

A real question is why use something slower against garchomp? Garchomp hits hard. Faster pokemon can hit just as hard in limitations as using faster pokemon give garchomp less time to set up. Best counters to things are things that can kill them by outspeeding them, not risking nasty little crits and "sand veil" which works both ways I guess. I remeber when they thought that was the worse ability ever for him. :p
 
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