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Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.
- Thread starter xcfrisco
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I'm gonna use a point I've wanted to use for a while. Swords Dance Scope Lens Super Luck Absol crits high crit rate moves just about as much as, but slightly more than, a 100% accuracy attack missing against a Sand Veil Garchomp. So, let's say I have a Sashed Trick Room Solrock. First turn Trick Room, next turn boom. Guaranteed. That's my lead, so fuck you Sand Stream. Only thing that can set up as a lead most of the time is Hippo. (I think, I don't exactly remember how common TTar leads are. I imagine not very). Explosion does about 73% minimum to Hippo, which means that the Brave Scope Lens Absol that comes in isn't gonna have too much trouble cleaning things up. And, so that I'm not making dumb assumptions, my Absol has SD, Psycho Cut, Night Slash, and Baton Pass. The second you send out something that I don't think Absol can take I BP to DDMence. Now, with the same probability as the Sand Veil that works more often than I think, Absol is going to use a 210 Base Power Night Slash (including STAB) off of the same Attack as Garchomp. So, Absol trades the ability to take no damage for the ability to do much more than a SpecsMence Draco Meteor with no down side. And to things that aren't resistant to Dark (Fighting, Steel and Dark are resistant), I do an assload of damage. For Fighting types, I have the good Psycho cut, with a respectable 140 when it crits, and Steel and Dark I BP to either MixMence or DDMence. Of course, I haven't even thought about getting in an SD, at which point it's pretty much 4 more turns of rape.
So Sand Veil hax being a major point is like saying that after a SD Absol can OHKO a full health Hippowdon, working "more than I think."
I think Hippowdon is slower then -speed Absol.
So the 27% HP Hippowdon (33% after Leftovers) will outrun Absol and OHKO it, unless it holds a sash. In that case, Sandstorm will KO it.
So the 27% HP Hippowdon (33% after Leftovers) will outrun Absol and OHKO it, unless it holds a sash. In that case, Sandstorm will KO it.
No. It says absolutely nothing.
The problem with Sand veil hax is that, no matter how hard you're winning, no matter how horrible the enemy is, there is quite a high chance with brightpowder added into the mix, that you miss with your counter to Garchomp. And what happens if you miss with your counter? You lose the entire game, as Garchomp sweeps you. The chance of that happening isn't extremely high, but it is high enough that it starts to get gay.
It's odd, why haven't I ever heard anyone complaining about Sand Veil Gliscor who can Baton Pass shit to whatever he wants and still has this "gay" ability? Technically, it can sweep the team just as well by Baton Passing Rock Polish and Swords Dance to something like Marowak or Medicham, and can dodge Ice attacks with Sand Veil. Isn't that technically broken too if Sand Veil is so broken?
Just when you were winning, you messed yourself up with that terrible comparison.
The answer is: phase, a phaser is a lot more likely to stay alive against gliscor than garchomp.
The answer is: phase, a phaser is a lot more likely to stay alive against gliscor than garchomp.
Also, the thing getting passed to doesn't get Sand Veil, so your counter to it, if you have one, always works.
That and, as I'm sure you know, Gliscor has to stat up to be dangerous himself or to pass. Garchomp is dangerous without setup if you choose to run those sets.
Most of the arguments against Garchomp don't involve Sand Veil, it just gets brought up because it's the icing you're allergic to on the cake.
That and, as I'm sure you know, Gliscor has to stat up to be dangerous himself or to pass. Garchomp is dangerous without setup if you choose to run those sets.
Most of the arguments against Garchomp don't involve Sand Veil, it just gets brought up because it's the icing you're allergic to on the cake.
It gets fudging annoying when your counter's attacks are missing the sub while they continue to SD up.
I can see what you're getting at, but Garchomp shouldn't be moved to Ubers. If he were to be moved there he wouldn't last too long. Due to his lack of speed compared to some Ubers he will be destroyed by attack/special attacks of 438 or higher. Garchomp is too easily defeated in OU, at least from what I can see. Teams nowadays design a Garchomp counter, and that is ALWAYS. CB Chomp will crash and fall if it uses Earthquake, because most teams carry at least one levitater or at least a flyer. Garchomp is really only OHKO or more on Pokemon if supported by 1-2 SD. I personally ran my Garchomp with Salac Berry ensuring I am faster than most Pokemon. Also, you should still be aware of CB Mamoswines which will kill your Garchomp with Ice Shard. Yache Berry won't help it much but the item is still good against Weavile's Ice Shard. That's basically all I can say.
Also, the chance for Sand Veil hax is just about the chance that using a Hazerider Primeape will activate Anger Point. So, the chance that a counter will switch in and miss a crucial attack is the same as the chance that Primape gets a free Belly Drum.
EDIT: @Koishii: What you said about how he does in Ubers doesn't change anything. It doesn't matter how well he does. And the whole, every team has a Garchomp counter is kinda besides the point. The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't that hard to counter Garchomp in general, without trying too hard.
EDIT2: @everyone: Ok, I think I should clarify exactly what I think. Sand Veil is a good ability, I'll admit that. But I'm also going to say that there are other abilities that do similar or better things with equal or higher probability (I'd say an Absol getting a crit is just about the same as Ice Beam missing, because they both get a free hit. Anger Point activating I'd say is better, but the fact that Primeape sucks cancels out the fact that it has a higher chance to activate.).
Garchomp is good, but he is not broken by any means. Listing off all of Garchomp's good things is great and all, but in practice he doesn't live up to his alleged brokenness. I could go ahead and say that if you can't counter Garchomp it probably indicates a flaw in your team rather than a flaw with Garchomp, but in actuality most of you are probably better battlers than I am. But I am going to say that Sand Veil is not hard to get rid of, simply by changing weather, and Garchomp's offensive stats are, while good, not the best. Yes, Garchomp has good defenses for a sweeper. But since Garchomp doesn't have Rhyperior's physical defense with the special defense of Tentacruel I don't think that his defenses are a major problem. A lot of things don't OHKO Garchomp with Ice attacks, but Garchomp doesn't OHKO many things himself. For example, at best with no boosts Garchomp fails to 2HKO Hippowdon, even with Life Orb. With a SD in, Garchomp fails to OHKO, meaning that if they're both in, Hippowdon can Ice Fang until Garchomp dies. You could appeal to Sand Veil, saying that it all racks up, but I'm gonna think it's safe to say that you can get at least one Ice Fang in. A Garchomp with 40% health can still hurt, but it dies to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, anything with a priority attack, (especially the one Garchomp is 4x weak to), and many other things. And again. Note that. Garchomp's 180 Base attack that's supposed to be so good actually isn't. After he uses it and Sand Veil makes Hippo's second Ice Fang miss and Garchomp gets the 3HKO, you can switch in to any Steel type with good defense, who just has to wait out the rest of the Outrage, not a big feat. If you worry about Fire attacks, you can just pack a Heatran, who can absorb the Fire Attack and easily outspeed with a Scarf. A Modest 252 Sp. Atk Heatran can easily OHKO a lot of Garchomp's with no ev investment in Garchomp's good HP.
EDIT: @Koishii: What you said about how he does in Ubers doesn't change anything. It doesn't matter how well he does. And the whole, every team has a Garchomp counter is kinda besides the point. The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't that hard to counter Garchomp in general, without trying too hard.
EDIT2: @everyone: Ok, I think I should clarify exactly what I think. Sand Veil is a good ability, I'll admit that. But I'm also going to say that there are other abilities that do similar or better things with equal or higher probability (I'd say an Absol getting a crit is just about the same as Ice Beam missing, because they both get a free hit. Anger Point activating I'd say is better, but the fact that Primeape sucks cancels out the fact that it has a higher chance to activate.).
Garchomp is good, but he is not broken by any means. Listing off all of Garchomp's good things is great and all, but in practice he doesn't live up to his alleged brokenness. I could go ahead and say that if you can't counter Garchomp it probably indicates a flaw in your team rather than a flaw with Garchomp, but in actuality most of you are probably better battlers than I am. But I am going to say that Sand Veil is not hard to get rid of, simply by changing weather, and Garchomp's offensive stats are, while good, not the best. Yes, Garchomp has good defenses for a sweeper. But since Garchomp doesn't have Rhyperior's physical defense with the special defense of Tentacruel I don't think that his defenses are a major problem. A lot of things don't OHKO Garchomp with Ice attacks, but Garchomp doesn't OHKO many things himself. For example, at best with no boosts Garchomp fails to 2HKO Hippowdon, even with Life Orb. With a SD in, Garchomp fails to OHKO, meaning that if they're both in, Hippowdon can Ice Fang until Garchomp dies. You could appeal to Sand Veil, saying that it all racks up, but I'm gonna think it's safe to say that you can get at least one Ice Fang in. A Garchomp with 40% health can still hurt, but it dies to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, anything with a priority attack, (especially the one Garchomp is 4x weak to), and many other things. And again. Note that. Garchomp's 180 Base attack that's supposed to be so good actually isn't. After he uses it and Sand Veil makes Hippo's second Ice Fang miss and Garchomp gets the 3HKO, you can switch in to any Steel type with good defense, who just has to wait out the rest of the Outrage, not a big feat. If you worry about Fire attacks, you can just pack a Heatran, who can absorb the Fire Attack and easily outspeed with a Scarf. A Modest 252 Sp. Atk Heatran can easily OHKO a lot of Garchomp's with no ev investment in Garchomp's good HP.
Also, Heracross has no counters, and has arguably better typing than Garchomp because none of his weaknesses are very common, and has useful Ground and Fighting resistances.
And before you say "Heracross has to use gimmick shit like Specs to beat Gliscor", my Flame Orb, Swords Dance, Facade version beats Gliscor and Weezing.
Gliscor can Taunt any attempts to Phaze, so that's a moot point.
And before you say "Heracross has to use gimmick shit like Specs to beat Gliscor", my Flame Orb, Swords Dance, Facade version beats Gliscor and Weezing.
Gliscor can Taunt any attempts to Phaze, so that's a moot point.
I stopped reading here. People have said this before, and the answer now is the same as the answer then; it's overcentralizing if you have to either waste one of your precious 24 moveslot to counter him or have an abomasnow on your team. And Garchomp's "not the best" offensive stats are still more than enough to KO whatever you are using to change the weather anyways, so your point is moot.
If you don't use one of your 24 moveslots on a threat, then how do you expect to counter anything? If you go by this logic, Gyarados is uber; you have to use one of your "precious" 24 moveslots on Thunderbolt. Even Combee would be uber, since you have to use one of your "precious" 24 moveslots to beat it.
Um, you didn't read my example I used earlier. Bronzong comes in. He takes 40% from a correctly predicted Fire Fang from Garchomp. Garchomp hits him again and Bronzong takes another 40%, and then uses Rain Dance. Here there's about a 50% chance that the next Fire Fang will KO, and I use Explosion. Either way Bronzong dies and the Kingdra that I use on my Rain Dance team comes in and Ice Beams, clearly outspeeding Garchomp.
That's not even an over specialised example. I don't use Kingdra to counter Garchomp. It just so happens that I do, however.
My point was, you aren't using the weather for anything but Garchomp unless you have a weather team which means its a wasted slot for most of us. With Thunderbolt, Gyarados isn't the only thing it counters, but what else does weather counter?
Weather doesn't just counter Garchomp. It doubles Kingdra's Speed letting it use nice attacking stats and good STAB. It makes Glaceon somewhat better by firing off 180 Base attacks off of a 130 attacking stat while getting a free evasion boost (sound familiar). Actually given that Garchomp requires weather, I'm gonna say that you're wasting a precious Pokemon slot just giving Garchomp an ability.
Are you saying Tyranitar or Hippowdon are a waste of a pokemon slot?
The thing is, most teams don't have Kingdra, Glaceon, etc., because MOST TEAMS AREN'T WEATHER TEAMS! If you need a weather team to beat him, he's overcentralizing. TBolt works on (almost) everything, but rain dance doesn't do shit except if you have a weather team or are facing Garchomp. And don't even say it counters weather, because Hail and Sandstorm don't have to use a move, they can just switch in.
@Blue Harvest: I was being Sarcastic, responding to how Adamant Torterra said that having any sort of weather setter upper was a waste of a slot.
@Adamant Torterra: No one has said that you absolutely need a weather team to beat him. I'm not even saying that people use weather teams just to beat Garchomp. And ok, if you're using Sand Veil, aren't you using a 'weather' team? You using a Sand Streamer to set up Sand is the same as me using Abomasnow to set up Hail. And Hail teams also beat Garchomp. And people don't just use Hail teams to counter Garchomp. Plus, if you don't want to use a weather team, there are still a gajillion other ways to kill Garchomp.
Now, I'm going to ask you what defines overcentralising. That's your whole argument, isn't it? Garchomp is overcentralising? If you actually have a good solid definition for it, then your argument is going to be worth something. So far all you've said is that Garchomp is good, not broken.
I'm going to say that if you need a fire move to beat Bronzong (because everytime I bring up Bronzong you bring up fire moves). Because you need to have a fire move, Bronzong is overcentralising.
See? It sounds dumb.
@Adamant Torterra: No one has said that you absolutely need a weather team to beat him. I'm not even saying that people use weather teams just to beat Garchomp. And ok, if you're using Sand Veil, aren't you using a 'weather' team? You using a Sand Streamer to set up Sand is the same as me using Abomasnow to set up Hail. And Hail teams also beat Garchomp. And people don't just use Hail teams to counter Garchomp. Plus, if you don't want to use a weather team, there are still a gajillion other ways to kill Garchomp.
Now, I'm going to ask you what defines overcentralising. That's your whole argument, isn't it? Garchomp is overcentralising? If you actually have a good solid definition for it, then your argument is going to be worth something. So far all you've said is that Garchomp is good, not broken.
I'm going to say that if you need a fire move to beat Bronzong (because everytime I bring up Bronzong you bring up fire moves). Because you need to have a fire move, Bronzong is overcentralising.
See? It sounds dumb.
Have you seen February's usage statistics? You dont even need a Sand steamer to set up Garchomp, your opponnent will set it up for you 1/3 of the time! Besides, Hippowdon and TTar are good anyways, and most teams have at least 2 or three rock/ground/steel types. You already have two if you are using Chomp and a streamer. You only need 1 more to make your team 1/2 sandstorm immune, and almost everyonne has at least one steel on their team.
Garchomp is overcentralizing because it requires either a very specialized counter or a weather team to beat it consistantly. Really, there are about 4 definitions of overcentralizing ITT, why do you have to ask me?
I haven't brought up fire moves a single time, you are probably confusing me with a different poster. Either way, as I have said twice, Fire moves are useful for other steels, grasses, ices, etc., Rain Dance is only useful against Garchomp unless you have a Rain Dance team. That means Rain Dance is only useful as a counter to garchomp on a rain dance team, because if you don't have a rain dance team it's a waste of a moveslot. Same with Sunny day. If the only counter to Garchomp is a weather team, it is way too overcentralizing. If it isn't give us something else that counter Garchomp reliably.
If you aren't using a Sand Streamer then don't assume that Sand Veil is worth it. Hippowdon shares a very common weakness with Garchomp, and most things that hit TTar SE hit Garchomp for at least neutral. That means that by having both of them together you are setting yourself up for a few common weaknesses, meaning that something like Swampert or Slowbro which is in against one of your Sand Sandstreamers is going to prevent any switches against Garchomp. There, it's an inherent weakness in having both a Sand Streamer and Garchomp.
I think that almost everything that I've listed as a counter is not overspecialised. You don't need to have a Rain Dance team to set up rain for just one pokemon. I've had a team that had both a Rain Dance Bronzong and a Sunny Day Butterfree, setting up Kingdra and BellyZard, which ended up having something like a 30-12 win-loss record. Not a weather team, but still gets rid of Sand. You don't need your counters to be too overspecialised. This entire thread is full of things that on their own, without being intended to, counter Garchomp. I'm asking you because if something is good, it's going to centralise. I'll admit that. Blissey is awesome, and people try to specifically counter Blissey. People do crazy shit like put Hyper Beam on Porygon or Explode their Azelf/Gengar/Heatran. Blissey centralises. Where's the cutoff between that and overcentralising?
And again, weather teams aren't the only thing that counter Garchomp. There's things like CBMamoswine, which, even though it may not be able to switch in on all of Garchomp's attacks, Garchomp can't switch in safely to a lot either. CBMamo EQ does 78-92 to Garchomp. So no switch in there. Not an overspecialised counter, not a weather team.
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