Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.

[Bankai]

A lot of people are saying that Garchomp is uncounterable. Look at stuff like Lucario and Gengar, list a 100% counter to those two. Are they being though of as uber? NO! Also one more thing, does it centralize the metagame? NO! On paper it looks uncounterable, but are all teams being torn apart by Garchomp? NO! Just my 6 cents.

There's one big difference. Lucario and Gengar both die to any decent stab attack. Lucario gets killed by every earthquake used, and every fighting attack used. Gengar gets killed by every psychic or other SE hit, and doesn't deal that much damage itself.

However, to kill garchomp you need to hit its 4x weakness with a special attack of, what was it, 386 with the latest 'Suicide sweeper' build? Oh, and you also need to be faster AND be able to take one of its attacks if you want to truly counter it.

If Lucario and Gengar were as hard to kill as Garchomp was, that point was valid. However, Garchomp is in an entirely different league of bulkiness.

 

[Eirei_Knight]

There's one big difference. Lucario and Gengar both die to any decent stab attack. Lucario gets killed by every earthquake used, and every fighting attack used. Gengar gets killed by every psychic or other SE hit, and doesn't deal that much damage itself.

However, to kill garchomp you need to hit its 4x weakness with a special attack of, what was it, 386 with the latest 'Suicide sweeper' build? Oh, and you also need to be faster AND be able to take one of its attacks if you want to truly counter it.

If Lucario and Gengar were as hard to kill as Garchomp was, that point was valid. However, Garchomp is in an entirely different league of bulkiness.

Just a little correction here, 266 is considered by many as the magic number to kill off Chomp(a 31(0)/31(0)/31(0) is ohko'd 100% of the time while a more "common" spread that people use which has 16 HP EVs giving it a 361 HP stat along with 226 Def(max IVs no EVs) and 206 SDef(max IVs no EVs) requires 269 in special attack to ohko). These calculations were made using a non-ice pokemon firing off an Ice Beam. The physical "magic number" for Ice Shard users is 463(iirc factoring stab in since Donphan is the only pokemon that can learn Ice Shard that isn't part ice at the least) this is a number not one of the Shard users can reach without the help of a CB, EB, Stat-upping move or LO(or at least as far as I know). For Ice fang it's 431(without STAB factored in). Finally for Ice Punch it's 374(again without STAB factored in). Standard SD Chomp run 330 Speed with only BP Chomp running a max speed of 333. ScarfChomp maxes out at 444. ChainChomp maxes out at 300 usually.

Feel free to correct me if I made any mistakes in my calculations(I am human after all).

 

[Bankai]

266, 366, it's not a big difference :P

 

[Eirei_Knight]

Actually you posted 386 and it is a big difference since 386 is a stat that's kinda tough to reach(for non stat boosting item holders, set uppers). In fact I can't think of any pokemon that reaches that SAtk(at least at the moment :P)....

 

[Jiggy-Ninja]

Actually you posted 386 and it is a big difference since 386 is a stat that's kinda tough to reach(for non stat boosting item holders, set uppers). In fact I can't think of any pokemon that reaches that SAtk(at least at the moment :P)....

386 is a SpA that is normally only reached by dedicated sweepers. Put it this way, Modest Alakazam and Porygon-Z, the two most powerful special sweepers in OU, max out at 405.

 

[Maroon3d]

Actually you posted 386 and it is a big difference since 386 is a stat that's kinda tough to reach(for non stat boosting item holders, set uppers). In fact I can't think of any pokemon that reaches that SAtk(at least at the moment :P)....

I don't know why but people seem to think Special Ice attacks are the only way to kill chomp. Ever heard
Weavile,Mamoswine,Swampert,Donphan,Hippodawn,Gliscor?

Weavile/Mamoswine both get a priority STAB Ice attack.
Swampert has a possible 120 base power attack firing off.
Donphan/Hioopdawn/Gliscor all can take hits and kill with Ice Fang/Shard.

 

[Blue Harvest]

I don't know why but people seem to think Special Ice attacks are the only way to kill chomp. Ever heard
Weavile,Mamoswine,Swampert,Donphan,Hippodawn,Gliscor?

Weavile/Mamoswine both get a priority STAB Ice attack.
Swampert has a possible 120 base power attack firing off.
Donphan/Hioopdawn/Gliscor all can take hits and kill with Ice Fang/Shard.

All of them are OHKOed or 2HKOed switching in.

 

[Ash Borer]

if only dugtrio had ice punch...

 

[Bankai]

Now, this is a typical bread and butter Garchomp set, with a little twist. For starters, adamant nature helps make up the slack lost from the EVs, giving you 347 attack. With these 180 Special Defense EVs, you get 250 special defense, which guarentees that Vaporeon (273 Special Attack) and anything less will fail to OHKO with Ice Beam. They will, however activate the Salac Berry, giving you the speed of scarfchomp.

Decided to dig up the Suicide sweeper thread. it was 274, not 386. My bad. I know it's a gigantic difference, but I really thought it was that >.>

The point still stands. While 266 used to be a magic number, even that magic number is no longer safe. 274 is pretty hard to reach, especially if you also have to outspeed the garchomp AND survive their first attack.

 

[Jenigmat]

Decided to dig up the Suicide sweeper thread. it was 274, not 386. My bad. I know it's a gigantic difference, but I really thought it was that >.>

The point still stands. While 266 used to be a magic number, even that magic number is no longer safe. 274 is pretty hard to reach, especially if you also have to outspeed the garchomp AND survive their first attack.

With a Plus nature and 252 ev's the, minimum base Special Attack needed to reach 274 is 76. Given that anything with base higher than 76 can reach that magic number, it suddenly doesn't seem so hard to reach. 76 is below the average Special Attack of all OU pokemon, which I remember being around 83. (Someone give me a real number please). Glalie, in all it's 480 BST suckiness, can reach that number.

Suddenly doesn't seem too hard to reach now, does it?

 

[Fenikkusu]

In general, the pokemon aiming for that magic number are walls/tanks/mixed sweepers. So you're sacrificing either your defenses (walls/tanks) or speed/attack (mixed). Purely special sweepers (the pokemon that generally use a 252 +nature) aren't the ones with the issue. Also keep in mind that anything that's going to be attempting to do that also needs to be able to soak a hit and either A) soak another hit from 'chomp or b)outspeed its 102 base speed or c) revenge kill.

 

[Hyra]

With a Plus nature and 252 ev's the, minimum base Special Attack needed to reach 274 is 76. Given that anything with base higher than 76 can reach that magic number, it suddenly doesn't seem so hard to reach. 76 is below the average Special Attack of all OU pokemon, which I remember being around 83. (Someone give me a real number please). Glalie, in all it's 480 BST suckiness, can reach that number.

Suddenly doesn't seem too hard to reach now, does it?

But then they sacrifice the defenses to withstand Garchomp's assualts or the the speed they need to go before it. It's already very hard for Cresselia and Suicune to reach those numbers, upping it just means they get worse.

And btw, the 274 SAtk gives you a shot at OHKO, before it used to be 273 would always OHKO any Garchomp. There's a big difference between the two. Here is MoP's post with the real calcs:

Wrong.

273 attack vs 250 defense, 95 power(*4), 358 max HP: 84.36% - 99.44%

If you did go over 273, you wouldn't even guarantee anything, you'd have like a 6% chance of OHKOing if you used 274. You would need 301 special attack just to have a 50% to OHKO that Garchomp and as much as 326 to always OHKO it.

 

[Jenigmat]

But then they sacrifice the defenses to withstand Garchomp's assualts or the the speed they need to go before it. It's already very hard for Cresselia and Suicune to reach those numbers, upping it just means they get worse.

And btw, the 274 SAtk gives you a shot at OHKO, before it used to be 273 would always OHKO any Garchomp. There's a big difference between the two. Here is MoP's post with the real calcs:

All right, that's a good point. I just want to point out that it isn't a very high number. Though the EV's necessary to do reach higher Special Attacks are indeed quite draining, 25 out of the 49 Pokemon currently listed under OU on the Smogon site have base Special Attack of 90 or higher. This is about where you can comfortably reach a relatively safe chance to OHKO. (And of course, for the things that aren't walls, Life Orb is a great choice.) That's about half. In this, not all may learn Ice Beam. However, a good many can learn Ice Beam, and a few are also quite fast. Out of this, I'm sure that one can serve to take down Garchomp.

Also, assuming Sand Veil hax is never useful. It's the same as assuming that you won't hit my Brightpowder Snow Cloak Glaceon that I'm switching to from Abomasnow. I could also easily have a Brightpowder Ninjask with Sand Attack, Baton Passing a Substitute to a Brightpowder Smeargle. I'm sure one of the attacks on the two would miss with about the same probability as Sand Veil, and with a sub up Smeargle could Baton Pass Belly Drum to say, a Mamoswine, which could either Ice Shard or Earthquake.

 

[chip_the_fox]

i wish people will stop with this. he is not broken people. its already been discussed that he destoyes basically all walls switching in but revenging killing is all in the realm of possibility and some calcs:

will be using CS weavile, CB mamoswine, and a surprise pokemon:

CS adamant weavile outspeeds all garchamp and OHKO with ice punch doing:
Damage: 150.98% - 177.59%

CB swine can strike back with ice shard doing:
Damage: 128.29% - 150.98%

these are the main chomp killers and also the main reason why chomp switches out when not stuck on outrage b/c the intelligent player knows hell either be outspeed or sharded for a OHKO.

now the main pokemon i want to share is CS timid froslass. it can kill the chomp, ties with gengars and OHKO them, can destiny bond to grab another kill, and even taunt something to shut down a wall that may switch in.

and the calcs:
ice beam: Damage: 146.22% - 171.99%
blizzard: Damage: 184.03% - 216.25%

reason why i mention blizzard is 1 of 2 reasons:
1) froslass is normally on a hail team and one can sac their abomasnow to get hail going and remove sand veil hacks

2) blizzard can even have a shot to OHKO even the yache berry version!! modest might even ensure that OHKO but then you fail to outspeed jolly garchomps.


call me anti garchomp, pro garchomp ,or whatever but i normally run weather teams ( not SS) to help prevent garchomp from running over me

 

[Fenikkusu]

Revenge killing is never an argument for a poke not being overpowered.

 

[Jenigmat]

Tell that to Wobbuffet.

 

[Bogmire]

i wish people will stop with this. he is not broken people. its already been discussed that he destoyes basically all walls switching in but revenging killing is all in the realm of possibility and some calcs:

will be using CS weavile, CB mamoswine, and a surprise pokemon:

CS adamant weavile outspeeds all garchamp and OHKO with ice punch doing:
Damage: 150.98% - 177.59%

CB swine can strike back with ice shard doing:
Damage: 128.29% - 150.98%

these are the main chomp killers and also the main reason why chomp switches out when not stuck on outrage b/c the intelligent player knows hell either be outspeed or sharded for a OHKO.

now the main pokemon i want to share is CS timid froslass. it can kill the chomp, ties with gengars and OHKO them, can destiny bond to grab another kill, and even taunt something to shut down a wall that may switch in.

and the calcs:
ice beam: Damage: 146.22% - 171.99%
blizzard: Damage: 184.03% - 216.25%

reason why i mention blizzard is 1 of 2 reasons:
1) froslass is normally on a hail team and one can sac their abomasnow to get hail going and remove sand veil hacks

2) blizzard can even have a shot to OHKO even the yache berry version!! modest might even ensure that OHKO but then you fail to outspeed jolly garchomps.


call me anti garchomp, pro garchomp ,or whatever but i normally run weather teams ( not SS) to help prevent garchomp from running over me

overcentralization, no?

 

[Fenikkusu]

Tell that to Wobbuffet.

Ok fine. 4/0/0 Rayquazza
CS 252 + nature Gengar Ice Beam does 142.61% - 167.61%
CS 252 neutral Weavile Ice Punch does 146.02% - 171.88%

etc etc.
Clearly Rayquazza is OU due to revenge killability.

Note: the above opinion is a projection based on a previous poster's logic, and may or may not reflect the true opinion held by this poster.

 

[Bourbon]

Seriously, all these garchomp defenders are just making it worse. If you need to have a weather team, or a choice scarfed ice type to beat a pokemon, you know something is wrong. We never had this problem with Salamence or Dragonite.



Specsmence is beaten by Bliss, Empoleon, and Regice. Mixmence is beaten by Tentacruel (none have EQ BTW) or Cressilia, physical 'mence is beaten by bulky waters and Porygon2.

Dragonite is super slow. it needs a + spe nature just to beat out 394 speed pokemon after a DD. All dragonites are beaten by Bulky Waters, and can be revenge killed easily. Unless it gets up two DDs, it's not gonna be doing much damage. And if you let it get that far, you suck.

Both of these dragons are weak to SR, Hail, and Sandstorm, so even forcing them out of play is enough to beat them. You don't have to worry about missing them because they don't gain a Double Team in a weather condition.

You don't have to worry about failing to kill them, because you only need 234 Satk to OHKO Mence with Ice Beam, and you need just 275 to OHKO Dragonite. These are guaranteed kills, because you can't miss, and they have no chance of survival even with minimum damage.. Weather effects and Stealth Rock (up ALL the time) mean you need even less power to net these KOs.

Not only that, but Salamence only has 299 speed, and Dragonite has only 259. Most of the OU metagame either ties or outspeeds Salamence easily. This makes defeating them even easier.

Salamence and Dragonite have surefire counters. Garchomp has none. If you want to compare him to Infernape and Gengar, well, show me one with 108/95/85 defenses, and then come talk to me.

 

[Jenigmat]

Ok fine. 4/0/0 Rayquazza
CS 252 + nature Gengar does 142.61% - 167.61%
CS 252 neutral Weavile does 146.02% - 171.88%

etc etc.
Clearly Rayquazza is OU due to revenge killability.

Note: the above opinion is a projection based on a previous poster's logic, and may or may not reflect the true opinion held by this poster.

Rayquaza's actually a great comparison to Garchomp. Let's look at what makes Rayquaza Uber: Massive offensive ability that's able to quickly set up and hit hard, with very few switch ins. Rayquaza also has the ability to hit very hard on both sides of the spectrum. This is crucial, because Skarmory has one amazingly great Uber use: After a DD Skarm can come in and Phaze Rayquaza out.

Now, let's look at Garchomp compared to that. Compared to Ubers, Garchomp's attack is about the same in effectiveness. We can even say that, toned to OU, Garchomp's Speed is much higher than that of Rayquaza's. They have the same defensive capabilities, and their typing is arguably equal. However, Garchomp lacks the ability to hit physical walls with the equivalent of Rayquaza's Overheat.

Let's look another example of a Dragon Outraging Skarmory. After a Swords Dance, Skarmory takes 47-55% from a Life Orb'd Adamant Outrage. Obviously, the Scarfed versions that are necessary to outspeed so many of the crucial threats will do less, doing 36-43%. Remember, this is after a Swords Dance that may be hard to get. Skarmory can easily Whirlwind it out and Roost. Obviously, when Garchomp switches back in, Skarmory will have some trouble Roosting, taking 80-94% from a Life Orb Earthquake with no boosts. But surely it's not too much to ask for whoever's using the Skarmory to be competent. If Toxic Spikes are out, and Garchomp has been Toxic'd, then Skarmory is sitting there taking 24-28% from unboosted Outrages while Garchomp is dying.

Obviously, I'm assuming that EQ and Outrage are Garchomp's only attacks. This may seem unfair, as Garchomp gets Fire attacks. But consider this. Everything that Garchomp gets, Salamence can do better, except for Sand Veil. Therefore I'm also assuming that Garchomp has Substitute, in order to help out getting in the Swords Dance that comprises Garchomp's moveset.

On the subject, Salamence can easily eat Garchomp for breakfast. Assuming that Garchomp has a Swords Dance equates to assuming that Salamence has a Dragon Dance, meaning that Salamence outspeeds and kills. You could say that Salamence can't switch in on Garchomp, but I say that Garchomp cannot switch in on Salamence.

 

[Bourbon]

Yeah... too bad unboosted Dragon Claw from DDmence doesn't kill Garchomp. Scarfchomp can switch in ALL THE TIME... lame.

 

[Jenigmat]

You mean the Life Orb Dragon Claw that does 112-132%? I used Life Orb on Garchomp, I use Life Orb on Salamence. Given that both Sub+SD Garchomp and DDMence carry Life Orb I thought it was fair.

 

[Bologo]

Seriously, all these garchomp defenders are just making it worse. If you need to have a weather team, or a choice scarfed ice type to beat a pokemon, you know something is wrong. We never had this problem with Salamence or Dragonite.

Umm so what? Now everyone who's defending Garchomp is automatically wrong because you said so?

You obviously haven't been reading people's posts very well, since NO ONE SAID YOU NEED TO HAVE ANY OF THE CRAP YOU MENTIONED.

Really, nobody said you NEED to have a weather team, or a choice scarfed ice type to beat him. They're just ways to beat Garchomp. Really you can't just jump down someone's throat every time they say a way to beat Garchomp and say that all teams automatically need it, therefore it is overcentralizing.

Let's see, your example for Salamence. Specsmence beaten by Bliss, physical mence by bulky waters/Porygon2. However, that is completely flawed, since the main complaint here for Garchomp seems to be that no one can switch into it because of its vast movepool. That goes for Salamence too, since nothing can switch into it without fear of getting a big hit. Therefore, it has no surefire counters.

How exactly is Dragonite beaten by bulky waters when it learns Thunderbolt? If it gets off 2 DDs, the opponent does not suck, it can easily do that if the pokemon with the Ice move is gone, which seems exactly the same for Garchomp. -.-

No one needs to show you an Infernape or Gengar with Garchomp's defenses. The point still remains that those are just as uncounterable as Garchomp since nothing can switch in safely on them. Don't forget that Garchomp's good defenses are also overrided by his extreme lack of resistances. Gengar can switch in on so much it's not even funny, since it has a lot of immunities, but Garchomp is only immune to Electric, and will be taking neutral damage from damn near everything else.

Sand Veil is annoying, I'll admit it, but seriously, Garchomp requires support from another pokemon to be effective, and I don't believe that Gengar, Infernape, Salamence or Tyranitar need support to be effective, they're perfectly fine on their own.

 

[Jenigmat]

Specsmence is beaten by Bliss, Empoleon, and Regice. Mixmence is beaten by Tentacruel (none have EQ BTW) or Cressilia, physical 'mence is beaten by bulky waters and Porygon2.

The biggest reason people complain about Garchomp is because it has no surefire counters. By your own admission, doesn't this indicate that Salamence has no counters?

And on the subject, you could say that nothing switches into Garchomp. Given that, what exactly can Garchomp switch in on? Anything physical that comes from a 115 Base Power from 130 Base Attack is gonna take off more than 50% of Garchomp's health, and from the special side the base power is 102. This is merely a STAB 70 Base Power Attack. If the 130 Base Attack seems too low, then certainly a stronger attack from a lower base is gonna be about the same. I'm sure the scaling is easily done in your head. There are a lot of things that are faster than Garchomp with 130 Base (Special) Attack. Weavile makes sure that Garchomp can't switch in, Gengar, Alakazam, Azelf and Starmie are all examples just from OU that are faster than Garchomp and have a good shot at OHKO'ing. I'm sure that you'll say that Sand Veil can help out here, but there's a good chance that two of these are going to be on your team. Let's say you have a TrickScarf Alakazam. Then one of a few things will happen when I use Trick (guaranteed to go first). Either you will have a SDChomp, of any kind, and the Scarf will cripple Garchomp. If not an SD, then either Scarfed or Banded. If Banded, then that implies a Jolly Garchomp, which means that any of my walls are going to both know that you cannot stat up and that you won't be doing tha much damage.

If you have a ScarfChomp, then not much happens outside of me knowing your set. I can try to Knock Off, but I think that if I assume two pokemon on my team you'll cry out "overcentralisation".

If my Trickzam has Specs, then the only difference in this entire scenario is that ScarfChomp's that switch in on the Trick are going to lose to my Timid/Jolly Salamence, at the cost of an Alakazam.

 

[Bourbon]

What I'm saying is, listing ridiculously specialized counters that no one in their right mind is going to use is just proving how overcentralizing Garchomp is.

Oh, you want a 100% Gengar counter? Spiritomb and Bronzong beat it all the time. Spiritomb OHKOs it, and Bronzong takes all it's hits easily and 2HKOs with Gyro Ball.

**If you want to say Hypnosis ruins the whole countering Gengar thing, take a look a Breloom; something has to go to sleep to counter that too.**

Now lets look at Infernape. Although it's unpredictable, one turn of observation and you know what it's gonna do. If it outspeeds something like Gengar or Azelf, it's obviously scarfed. You beat it with smart prediction. If it uses Nasty Plot, reach for Tentacruel or Cress. If it Swords Dances, bust out your bulky water.


Not only this, but you don't need a lot of power to dispatch Gengar or Infernape. any EQ, or Surf will OHKO 'Nape if you have even decent attack. Gengar loses to any non-resisted attack, or STAB Shadow BA all/Psychic/Dark Pulse. We are talking 60/60/75 defenses for Gengar and 76/71/71 for Infernape.

Garchomp has 108/95/85 defenses. You pretty much have to use a powerful ice beam, a 4x powered move, just to bring it down.