Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.

[Jenigmat]

Specsmence is beaten by Bliss, Empoleon, and Regice. Mixmence is beaten by Tentacruel (none have EQ BTW) or Cressilia, physical 'mence is beaten by bulky waters and Porygon2.

The biggest reason people complain about Garchomp is because it has no surefire counters. By your own admission, doesn't this indicate that Salamence has no counters?

And on the subject, you could say that nothing switches into Garchomp. Given that, what exactly can Garchomp switch in on? Anything physical that comes from a 115 Base Power from 130 Base Attack is gonna take off more than 50% of Garchomp's health, and from the special side the base power is 102. This is merely a STAB 70 Base Power Attack. If the 130 Base Attack seems too low, then certainly a stronger attack from a lower base is gonna be about the same. I'm sure the scaling is easily done in your head. There are a lot of things that are faster than Garchomp with 130 Base (Special) Attack. Weavile makes sure that Garchomp can't switch in, Gengar, Alakazam, Azelf and Starmie are all examples just from OU that are faster than Garchomp and have a good shot at OHKO'ing. I'm sure that you'll say that Sand Veil can help out here, but there's a good chance that two of these are going to be on your team. Let's say you have a TrickScarf Alakazam. Then one of a few things will happen when I use Trick (guaranteed to go first). Either you will have a SDChomp, of any kind, and the Scarf will cripple Garchomp. If not an SD, then either Scarfed or Banded. If Banded, then that implies a Jolly Garchomp, which means that any of my walls are going to both know that you cannot stat up and that you won't be doing tha much damage.

If you have a ScarfChomp, then not much happens outside of me knowing your set. I can try to Knock Off, but I think that if I assume two pokemon on my team you'll cry out "overcentralisation".

If my Trickzam has Specs, then the only difference in this entire scenario is that ScarfChomp's that switch in on the Trick are going to lose to my Timid/Jolly Salamence, at the cost of an Alakazam.

 

[Bourbon]

What I'm saying is, listing ridiculously specialized counters that no one in their right mind is going to use is just proving how overcentralizing Garchomp is.

Oh, you want a 100% Gengar counter? Spiritomb and Bronzong beat it all the time. Spiritomb OHKOs it, and Bronzong takes all it's hits easily and 2HKOs with Gyro Ball.

**If you want to say Hypnosis ruins the whole countering Gengar thing, take a look a Breloom; something has to go to sleep to counter that too.**

Now lets look at Infernape. Although it's unpredictable, one turn of observation and you know what it's gonna do. If it outspeeds something like Starmie, it's obviously scarfed. You beat it with smart prediction. If it uses Nasty Plot, reach for Tentacruel or Cress. If it Swords Dances, bust out your bulky water. Don't forget that Infernape has only 337 attack... sad.


Not only this, but you don't need a lot of power to dispatch Gengar or Infernape. any EQ, or Surf will OHKO 'Nape if you have even decent attack. Gengar loses to any non-resisted attack, or STAB Shadow BA all/Psychic/Dark Pulse. We are talking 60/60/75 defenses for Gengar and 76/71/71 for Infernape.

Garchomp has 108/95/85 defenses. You pretty much have to use a powerful ice beam, a 4x powered move, just to bring it down.


PS: Apparently you can't stop Azumarril, but people manage to beat it with prediction. If Salamence switches into something, there has to be a reason... use logic and find out what it's gonna do.

 

[Kira]

i wish people will stop with this. he is not broken people. its already been discussed that he destoyes basically all walls switching in but revenging killing is all in the realm of possibility and some calcs:

Yes, revenge killing is an answer.... but Garchomp has the magical ability to fucking switch out and doge the revenge kill.

 

[Jenigmat]

So you're saying that one can't use logic and find out what Garchomp's going to do? If you ask for a surefire Garchomp counter I ask for a surefire Salamence counter. Sure you'll say that it's easier to kill Salamence than Garchomp. I respond by saying that Salamence can boost its speed and use Hydro Pump, Flamethrower, and Draco Meteor off of 25 higher base Special Attack.

Life Orb'd Draco Meteor off of Max Special Attack Garchomp does 72-85% even the neutral 252/0 Hippowdon. Hippo I'm using the spread most people use, but no one ever is going to use a Max Special Attack Garchomp. Imagine a resistance now, and that's Skarmory, Bronzong and Forretress. Meanwhile, against 252/252 Impish Hippowdon my Timid SpecsMence does 90-110%, like a 50% to OHKO. Again, against Skarmory and Bronzong I can use Flamethrower or Hydro Pump. Hydro Pump is overkill off of a Timid SpecsMence against Hippo.

So I say that while Garchomp's Defenses let him take a hit or two from Hippo, a very common switch in, Salamence's Offense means that it can take out the Hippo while only taking the 6.25% coming from the Sand Stream on the turn Hippo switches in to die.

 

[umbarsc]

Oh, you want a 100% Gengar counter? Spiritomb and Bronzong beat it all the time. Spiritomb OHKOs it, and Bronzong takes all it's hits easily and 2HKOs with Gyro Ball.

Spiritomb is 2HKO'd by Specs Shadow Ball IIRC. Then there becomes a prediction game with Pursuit or Sucker Punch, as both have high risks, so it's not a 100% counter. Bronzong only 2HKO's Gengar with Gyro Ball, while Gengar 3HKO's with Specs Shadow Ball, and since Gengar is faster, Gengar wins.

Yes, revenge killing is an answer.... but Garchomp has the magical ability to fucking switch out and doge the revenge kill.

Not if it's locked into Outrage, which seems to pop up frequently in these "Garchomp has no counters!" discussions.

 

[Jiggy-Ninja]

PS: Apparently you can't stop Azumarril, but people manage to beat it with prediction. If Salamence switches into something, there has to be a reason... use logic and find out what it's gonna do.

Wait, you mean I actually have to think to counter some Pokemon? I can't just play Rock-Paper-Scissors and have sure-fire counters to a Pokemon? Oh man, that's way too hard! I hate having to think! Garchomp must be Uber! Gengar is uber! Salamence is Uber!

In fact, let's ban everything except Caterpie, Weedle, Metapod, Kakuna, Ditto, and Magikarp. Then we'll know how to counter everything, and we won't have to worry about having to predict.

For those of you with poor sarcasm detectors...get an upgrade.

 

[Bologo]

What I'm saying is, listing ridiculously specialized counters that no one in their right mind is going to use is just proving how overcentralizing Garchomp is.

If people have mentioned that they use those particular things that just so happen to counter Garchomp, are you calling them stupid or something? It's not bad for people to just mention that those things work against Garchomp, and I'm sure that they don't expect someone to just rant OVERCENTRALIZING every time they mention something.

Oh, you want a 100% Gengar counter? Spiritomb and Bronzong beat it all the time. Spiritomb OHKOs it, and Bronzong takes all it's hits easily and 2HKOs with Gyro Ball.

**If you want to say Hypnosis ruins the whole countering Gengar thing, take a look a Breloom; something has to go to sleep to counter that too.**

What exactly do either of those do if Gengar is holding Choice Specs?

Standard Spiritomb takes 50.33% - 59.21% from 252 SAtk EV Choice Specs Gengar. Can't switch in, slower, 2HKOed. Not a counter at all.

Standard Bronzong takes 47.93% - 56.21% from the same Gengar. Can't switch in, slower, 2HKOed. Not a counter at all.

Now lets look at Infernape. Although it's unpredictable, one turn of observation and you know what it's gonna do. If it outspeeds something like Gengar or Azelf, it's obviously scarfed. You beat it with smart prediction. If it uses Nasty Plot, reach for Tentacruel or Cress. If it Swords Dances, bust out your bulky water. Don't forget that Infernape has only 337 attack... sad.

Ok, so basically exactly what you're supposed to do against Garchomp, except with the nickname of Infernape.

Not only this, but you don't need a lot of power to dispatch Gengar or Infernape. any EQ, or Surf will OHKO 'Nape if you have even decent attack. Gengar loses to any non-resisted attack, or STAB Shadow BA all/Psychic/Dark Pulse. We are talking 60/60/75 defenses for Gengar and 76/71/71 for Infernape.

Still too hard for things to switch into those pokemon. Revenge-killing does not count as countering.

Garchomp has 108/95/85 defenses. You pretty much have to use a powerful ice beam, a 4x powered move, just to bring it down.

It's still hard to switch it into anything that's not an Electric attack, since it takes neutral from so much.

PS: Apparently you can't stop Azumarril, but people manage to beat it with prediction. If Salamence switches into something, there has to be a reason... use logic and find out what it's gonna do.

I'll be sure to do that against Garchomp too. -.-

 

[Bourbon]

Bronzong stops every Salamence out there. Only choice specs Fire Blast can pose a threat, and if it uses this, there's nothing stopping you from switching out from it. Gyro Ball maims Salamence pretty badly, or you can set up SR to keep it from showing up more. I would say 95% of the time you can switch Bronzong into Salamence without any fear.


BTW, seems to me that your definition of "stopping" Garchomp is more like "delaying it at the cost of your health". Skarmory, Forretress, and Hippowdon aren't really gonna do much to it. Bronzong might be able to dent it with Gyro Ball, but Subchomp can beat Bronzong easily.

PS: Once again, if Gengar has choice specs, and it does that much damage to Tomb or Bronzong, you obviously know it has specs and can beat it with... prediction. I pack Porygon2 with my spiritomb because against Gengar, they cover each other. Again, prediction is pretty much the best counter for these pokemon. You can say set X beats pokemon Y and so on, but basically, there's a counter for every pokemon and every set in the entire OU metagame. The reason Garchomp is up for debate is because even it's counters can't beat it all the time because it's tough and gets a free double team.

PSS: Infernape has a massive 337 attack. Max. Positive natured too. Yeah, Infernape is difficult to switch into, but if you predict wrong, it's not the end of the world, it's not gonna completely pwn the switch in (unless you send in Swampert, Parasect or Blissey into it... tsk tsk tsk)


Wow, me and Bologo seem to end up disagreeing about everything lol

 

[Jenigmat]

Not if it's locked into Outrage, which seems to pop up frequently in these "Garchomp has no counters!" discussions.

Having never actually used a Garchomp, and since Garchomp has never actually gotten the chance to use Outrage against my team, I can honestly say that I did not know that one could not switch out during Outrage. This makes all of my points about Skarmory taking 23-28% and Bronzong taking similar amounts that much more relevant.

EDIT:

@skiddle: Specs Flamethrower from Timid Specsmence does 74-95% against a 252/252 Sassy Bronzong (which no one uses), while Bronzong's Gyro Ball does at most like, 62%. So it maims it? And as for Stealth Rock, ok, fine. Setting up Stealth Rock is fine, but it doesn't make Bronzong a Specsmence counter.

Actually I take that back. Bronzong has 91 minimum speed, while Specsmence has 328. That's only 90 base power for Gyro Ball, which means 32-38% damage against Salamence. 'Zong can use Macho Brace to indeed max out at the 62% I mentioned above, but at the cost of being able to recover anything.

 

[Bourbon]

Gee, didn't you read the part that specifically says that if you have the unfortunate chance of switching into a fire move first turn (never the first choice of specsmence, at least what I've seen) not only can you switch out (yes, most players do switch out of super effective attacks) but you revealed the set.

In the analysis, it says Salamence's greatest asset is it's unpredictability. If I can take a very common pokemon, send it in no matter what and reveal the salamence's set, I just removed it's greatest advantage. Send in a bulky water if it's physical, send in special sponge if it's specs.

 

[Bologo]

BTW, seems to me that your definition of "stopping" Garchomp is more like "delaying it at the cost of your health". Skarmory, Forretress, and Hippowdon aren't really gonna do much to it. Bronzong might be able to dent it with Gyro Ball, but Subchomp can beat Bronzong easily.

Forretress's Gyro Ball is 109 base power against a regular Jolly Garchomp. It ends up dealing 31.93% - 37.54% to a 0/0 Garchomp, even when it has no attack EVs. = 3HKO It's 149 base power against an Adamant ScarfChomp. This deals 43.42% - 50.98%. That's a 3HKO or even a possible 2HKO with Gyro Ball. I'd say that's doing something.

Garchomp can't sub forever. It's going to have to try and attack sometime. There's also no guarantee that it'll get Sand Veil hax.

Skarmory with 56 atk EVs using Brave Bird deals 34.17% - 40.06% to 0/0 Garchomp. Also doing something.

Hippowdon does 35.29% - 41.46% from its 0 atk EV Earthquake to 0/0 Garchomp. Definitely also doing something.

Bronzong's Gyro Ball from 152 atk EVs is 132 base power and deals 44.82% - 52.66% to 0/0 Garchomp. 150 base power against Adamant ScarfChomp and deals 50.98% - 59.94%. Garchomp can't even switch in safely to that.

In the analysis, it says Salamence's greatest asset is it's unpredictability. If I can take a very common pokemon, send it in no matter what and reveal the salamence's set, I just removed it's greatest advantage. Send in a bulky water if it's physical, send in special sponge if it's specs.

For god's sakes, why the fuck can't you just do that with Garchomp? Is there just some magical forcefield that makes it so you automatically are not able to use prediction against Garchomp? Really, you're killing your own argument here.

 

[Jenigmat]

It's the D/P bulky water, the thing every team has, what is it? The bulky steel! And since every team has one, it's always going to be the first choice against the unpredictable 'Mence. I always Flamethrower first. Plus, Flamethrower either doesn't do enough to the switch in for the item to be obvious, or it OHKO's. If the switch in isn't weak to Fire, the fact that it's a Specsmence isn't obvious. It could easily be a MixMence. If you switch in Zong, yes, the Specs is obvious, at the cost of your Bronzong. It's a fair trade. And yea, you could say that Salamence's greatest asset is its unpredictability. I personally disagree. I think it's the huge movepool only 30%. The other 70% is the 135/110/100 offensive stats combined with Intimidate, which forces switches that generally make it more capable of doing damage than Garchomp.

EDIT: Actually, given that you brought it up, I'd say I'm more likely to say Rayquaza is OU than say that Garchomp is Uber.

 

[Bourbon]

Yeah... too bad the -10% of your health screams "MIXMENCE". If it doesn't have the life orb, it can't do it's job properly: 2HKO blissey and threaten everything else at the same time.



@Bologo: Yeah, so you can 3HKO Garchomp. Too bad you are spending your time NOT recovering and allowing Garchomp to kill you back, most likely at a much faster rate.

Also, who is dumb enough to switch Garchomp into a wall?! Yeah, great idea, I'll send my physical sweeper into a physical wall. This same logic could expalin sending Porygon-Z into Blissey. Bad idea.

 

[extra]

Now lets look at Infernape. Although it's unpredictable, one turn of observation and you know what it's gonna do. If it outspeeds something like Gengar or Azelf, it's obviously scarfed.

that was a pretty bad example. if it outspeeds something like gengar or azelf, it's safe to say that gengar or azelf is now dead and you've just sacrificed something to find out its set.

 

[Bourbon]

URGH, those were like the first two things I could think up of that NORMALLY outspeed Infernape, but wouldn't with a scarf. If you want to be that picky, I'll go back and say Starmie instead. Yes, I think I'll go do that. it's not like Starmie is gonna keel over and die by anything Infernape dishes out.

BTW, if they sent in Infernape on revenge against Starmie, I think it'd be safe to assume that it has some way of posing a threat to Starmie... and the only way it can do that is with Scarf.

 

[Bologo]

@Bologo: Yeah, so you can 3HKO Garchomp. Too bad you are spending your time NOT recovering and allowing Garchomp to kill you back, most likely at a much faster rate.

Also, who is dumb enough to switch Garchomp into a wall?! Yeah, great idea, I'll send my physical sweeper into a physical wall. This same logic could expalin sending Porygon-Z into Blissey. Bad idea.

Skarmory can Roost, there's nothing stopping that. It's not that hard. Especially if it's the sub variant, because then it can either be Whirlwinded out, or just get killed by Brave Bird. If it doesn't have Fire Fang, it's toast.

About your second statement, why do people switch Heracross into Dusknoir then? -.-

Y'know why not switch Garchomp into a wall if he can actually destroy the wall? Or is it that he can't get past the walls if he doesn't have a precious Swords Dance boost? You know, the boost that everyone seems to be assuming he has the turn he comes into the battle?

People can switch Porygon-Z into Blissey just fine. Some are mixed, and some have Hyper Beam. Sigh...

At your statement about Starmie not getting killed at anything from Infernape, it can't switch in. Grass Knot whoops Starmie since it's an 80 base power SE move against it. Especially if Infernape has a Nasty Plot already.

 

[Jenigmat]

Yeah... too bad the -10% of your health screams "MIXMENCE". If it doesn't have the life orb, it can't do it's job properly: 2HKO blissey and threaten everything else at the same time.



@Bologo: Yeah, so you can 3HKO Garchomp. Too bad you are spending your time NOT recovering and allowing Garchomp to kill you back, most likely at a much faster rate.

Also, who is dumb enough to switch Garchomp into a wall?! Yeah, great idea, I'll send my physical sweeper into a physical wall. This same logic could expalin sending Porygon-Z into Blissey. Bad idea.

All right, I'll give you that. If my first move is Flamethrower, which it usually is, about 70% of the time I'll reveal myself as being Spec'd and take out a bulky steel sent in to take a Draco Meteor and 30% of the time I'll reveal myself as being Spec'd and whatever switches in is going to get hit by a rather powerful Flamethrower. And I thought the Calc's I showed you demonstrated that Garchomp is not killing anything back at any faster rate.

And ok, what are you switching Garchomp into? Nothing on the list I gave you above, obviously. If you're not switching it into a wall such as Forretress, almost anything else you're switching it into is going to do more damage than the aforementioned walls, and let's say Garchomp is faster and kills it. The free switch in of my wall puts Chomp in the same position as if the wall had gotten an extra (more powerful) hit in, albeit a pokemon down. Yea, you can switch Chomp into things like Infernape and Lucario most of the time, but they can switch out too, or get in a strong hit and after they're killed they can switch to a wall. (Though if Lucario SD's on the switch, Extreme Speed is a 2HKO, making that not as safe as Infernape.)

I'll admit, I'm using sacrifices to do enough to Garchomp. But that's exactly like if SpecsMence is in against Hippowdon, if Garchomp is in against something that it's good against, the match-up will be favourable. Same with Salamence and actually pretty much every sweeper.

 

[Bourbon]

OK, I'm assuming stuff, and you're assuming stuff. Let's all stop assuming.

Anyways, in reply to the Skarmory thing: most garchomps pack a fire move these days. Therefore the only one Skarm beats is the sub version.

In reply to the whole Porygon-Z into Blissey thingy: Hyper Beaming blissey without the boost is just stupid. Should you get it in unscathed and un paralyzed, Choice Specs Modest Hyper Beam does 60.08% - 70.73% to max HP 0 special defense Blissey. It softboils. Porygon-Z must recharge. Then it can thunderwave you, then Softboiled again. lol?

The only reason people switch Herracross into Dusknoir is because it can get a potential boost, and then threaten it with Night Slash or pursuit. Garchomp has nothing to gain switching into a wall though, unless it has "Gyro Ball Absorb" which IIRC it doesn't have <_<



@Jenigmat:

Q: What are people switching Infernape into?




A: Not much.

Anyways, Gengar gets in easily, I agree. Main reason I use Dark Pulse before Aura Sphere every match. Thankfully his poor defenses render him somewhat mortal, and not unstoppable. Whew, thanks nintendo. (Gengar with even 80/80/80 could be uber O_O )

 

[Adamant_Torterra]

In fact, let's ban everything except Caterpie, Weedle, Metapod, Kakuna, Ditto, and Magikarp.

Why do you hate Wurmple, Silcoon and Cascoon so much? D:

 

[Blue Harvest]

Flamethrower from Timid Specsmence does 74-95% against a 252/252 Sassy Bronzong (which no one uses)

Yo. I use that.


All right by everyone's anti-Garchomp logic, Porygon Z is also uber because it is uncounterable. Tell me one thing that can switch into a Nasty Plot, Hyper Beam, Shadow Ball, HP Fighting Porygon Z and walk away without perfect prediction. Before you say it gets revenge killed easily after using its most powerfull attack, lol Garchomp.

I won't say Salamence is, because Cresselia can switch into almost any Salamence and threaten it with Ice Beam. Blissey or Hippowdon (without Draco Meteor) can take on other sets fairly well, and anything faster with Ice Beam annihilates it. Bronzong switches in decently, but most sets have Fire Blast.

Lucario isn't because Spiritomb can switch into basically any set and threaten it with Will-O-Wisp or Hypnosis. Specs Flash Cannon might 2HKO, but no one uses that (fuck, I would). Hippowdon stops physical sets, and Blissey stops specs sets (with help from a Ghost).

Infernape is horribly raped by Vaporeon / Gyarados / Tentacruel / Starmie unless it Thunder Punches on the switch in. Dragons rape it without HP Ice, and sturdy grounds tear it open a new asshole without Grass Knot. Skarmory kills it without Fire Blast / Flare Blitz and even Blissey can probably take it on without Close Combat (not very well).

These are all pokes with shaky counters. BUT the same is said for Garchomp. I've never been swept by the dragon because its NOT that hard to kill. It has good defenses, but its dumb to say its relatively tough since it generally has NO defensive EVs.

 

[Bologo]

OK, I'm assuming stuff, and you're assuming stuff. Let's all stop assuming.

I haven't assumed anything, just breaking down your statements to make you think. Especially for that rude statement about all the Garchomp supporters automatically just being wrong.

Anyways, in reply to the Skarmory thing: most garchomps pack a fire move these days. Therefore the only one Skarm beats is the sub version.

Yeah, and the sub version is the most common, which means that Skarmory beats Garchomp most of the time.

In reply to the whole Porygon-Z into Blissey thingy: Hyper Beaming blissey without the boost is just stupid. Should you get it in unscathed and un paralyzed, Choice Specs Modest Hyper Beam does 60.08% - 70.73% to max HP 0 special defense Blissey. It softboils. Porygon-Z must recharge. Then it can thunderwave you, then Softboiled again. lol?

It's supposed to be assumed that it has Nasty Plot. That's the only set that Hyper Beam is listed on in the analysis after all.

The only reason people switch Herracross into Dusknoir is because it can get a potential boost, and then threaten it with Night Slash or pursuit. Garchomp has nothing to gain switching into a wall though, unless it has "Gyro Ball Absorb" which IIRC it doesn't have <_<

Learn sarcasm. -.- <-- usually indicates sarcasm if you didn't know that...

 

[Jenigmat]

OK, I'm assuming stuff, and you're assuming stuff. Let's all stop assuming.

Anyways, in reply to the Skarmory thing: most garchomps pack a fire move these days. Therefore the only one Skarm beats is the sub version.

In reply to the whole Porygon-Z into Blissey thingy: Hyper Beaming blissey without the boost is just stupid. Should you get it in unscathed and un paralyzed, Choice Specs Modest Hyper Beam does 60.08% - 70.73% to max HP 0 special defense Blissey. It softboils. Porygon-Z must recharge. Then it can thunderwave you, then Softboiled again. lol?

The only reason people switch Herracross into Dusknoir is because it can get a potential boost, and then threaten it with Night Slash or pursuit. Garchomp has nothing to gain switching into a wall though, unless it has "Gyro Ball Absorb" which IIRC it doesn't have <_<

Ok, when you say that most Garchomp's have a fire move, and the only one that Skarmory walls is the sub version. But the sub version is the only one that makes use of both of the things that make Garchomp even potentially close to broken: Immunity to Status and Sand Veil. If you get rid of Substitute, then I'm sending in my Dusknoir which walls you with ease and Burns you.

And yes, you're right. A good percent of the time people do not switch sweepers into walls, except when someone is sure the sweeper will win. I wouldn't switch Garchomp in on Skarmory, even if I was packing Flamethrower, or whatever other fire move.

Look, I'm not saying your points are invalid. You've convinced me that Garchomp doesn't suck as much as I thought it did, and is in fact a solid OU. But, all of the things that make him OU have enough exceptions so as to not make him broken. Garchomp is simply a Salamence that trades offense for defense and trades a 1.5 defense boost on switch in for an evasion boost in sandstorm. (A sandstorm which negates all of your walls' Lefties, hurting your non-ground, rock and steel types, as well as taking a pokemon to set up.) I can, however, counter almost everything your Garchomp can do by switching in a Kingdra while Rain is up, for example. (Not hard to do. start with Zong, who dances, holding wet rock.) I've sent in this bronzong on your Garchomp. You fire fang me (doing 40%). I rain dance, you Fire Fang me, and next turn your fire fang may has like, a 50% chance of not killing. If you kill me, then fine, if not I Explode, doing a bit of damage. I'll assume I don't kill. Either way I send in a Kindgra, with 6 more turns of rain. (No Sand Veil Hax). If you send in hippo to try to set up sand again, you eat Ice Beam. If you send in TTar, then you're good sponging the Ice Beam, but the Waterfall or Surf I use the next turn will hurt.

 

[Bourbon]

Actually, assuming someone is switching Garchomp into those walls, what else would you call that?

(I don't know how to do multiple quotes, lol, here goes anyways)

** How on earth is Porygon-Z going to find the time to Nasty Plot and Hyper Beam if it switches into Blissey? O_O I'm pretty sure Porygon-Z isn't going to be able to pull a few free turns out of it's butt without getting Thunderwaved.

** I wasn't aware that Subchomp was the most popular, but if it is, OK, Skarmory is a decent counter to Garchomp a lot of the time.

** OK, I know what a sarcasm face is. I just for some reason used the other face when I posted... I seem to use that one a lot :P Sorry.


@jenigmat: Oh yeah, Kingdra is the shizz. Total agreement here. Glad that other people use him.

However, you don't have to sub to abuse Sand Veil. it works more often than you think, and you don't need brightpowder to make it effective. It's pretty much ensured to work with sub and brightpowder though.

 

[Bologo]

BTW, seems to me that your definition of "stopping" Garchomp is more like "delaying it at the cost of your health". Skarmory, Forretress, and Hippowdon aren't really gonna do much to it. Bronzong might be able to dent it with Gyro Ball, but Subchomp can beat Bronzong easily.

Actually, assuming someone is switching Garchomp into those walls, what else would you call that?

(I don't know how to do multiple quotes, lol, here goes anyways)

** How on earth is Porygon-Z going to find the time to Nasty Plot and Hyper Beam if it switches into Blissey? O_O I'm pretty sure Porygon-Z isn't going to be able to pull a few free turns out of it's butt without getting Thunderwaved.

** I wasn't aware that Subchomp was the most popular, but if it is, OK, Skarmory is a decent counter to Garchomp a lot of the time.

** OK, I know what a sarcasm face is. I just for some reason used the other face when I posted... I seem to use that one a lot :P Sorry.

I'm sorry, but I was just replying to that quote at the top when I "assumed" Garchomp was switching into those walls.

Just because P-Z is paralyzed, it doesn't mean he can't Nasty Plot and then send Blissey to hell with Hyper Beam after that if Blissey assumes it can stay in.

Heh, it's ok about the sarcasm face, it generally just looks like any disgruntled face. :P

 

[Bourbon]

Lol, I've never used Blissey, but I guess my use of Regice has made me treat my special wall with kid gloves. I wouldn't leave em in to eat a Hyper Beam, but maybe some people would.

Wow, how did this turn into Porygon-Z and Infernape discussions...