I was just quoting the common analysis spread, that's all. It does make a lot more sense to put those SpD EVs into Defense for OU as that 45 SpD usually isn't worth salvaging.
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Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.
- Thread starter xcfrisco
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If you really want Cloyster to be an actual Garchomp counter (physical ones at least), then it's gotta have Icicle Spear & Skill Link. That way it can at least bust through the subs and deal damage after they're broken.
From a 0/0 Cloyster to a 0/0 Garchomp, Icicle Spear does 14.85% - 17.37% per hit. Multiply that by 5 and you get 74.25% - 86.85%.
That means it'll pretty much always 2HKO Garchomp, even through his subs. Pretty sweet if you ask me, and it actually gives Cloyster a reason to use Skill Link.
From a 0/0 Cloyster to a 0/0 Garchomp, Icicle Spear does 14.85% - 17.37% per hit. Multiply that by 5 and you get 74.25% - 86.85%.
That means it'll pretty much always 2HKO Garchomp, even through his subs. Pretty sweet if you ask me, and it actually gives Cloyster a reason to use Skill Link.
Cloyster seems decent as a Garchomp counter, but what else would it do? Icicle Spear / Ice Shard / Rapid Spin / filler (Toxic Spikes?)
Also Azurill is a normal type. Wow I just learned that.
Also Azurill is a normal type. Wow I just learned that.
EDIT: Completely wrong. Cloyster still needs Atk EVs to guarantee the KO with Icicle Spear and Ice Shard.
Icicle Spear is not like Triple Kick. It only needs to hit once to get all 5 hits in. It's still a 100% accuracy move, so it gets an 80% chance in Sand Veil anyway, which isn't bad.
I was so certain that wasn't the case. Well, Cloyster will still need Atk EVs to guarantee the 2HKO--with Ice Shard, anyway.
Just as much as P2 utterly utterly pwns Gyarados and non-rest talk Heatran, that does not necessarily mean it is the only counter.
Anyway, Cloyster honestly can't do very well against ChainChomp, can it? I mean, the Hippo is 2-hit KOed.
Cloyster can't counter Garchomp... despite the Stealth Rock, and lack of recovery move issues, here are some calculations.
Fire Blast from 6 Sa, Naughty (Scarf)Garchomp does 32.24% - 37.83% to 200 Special Defense, 252 Hp, Relaxed Cloyster. Assuming SR, he can't switch in safely more than once, and if no SR, that's still a hefty amount of damage on something that can't gain Hp back.
Scarfchomp's Earthquake vs. the standard (above) Cloyster does 32.89% - 38.49%. That's a Scarfed Pokemon, the weakest as far as power goes, of all Garchomps. This is another one that likes SR support, but still doesn't need it too much.
Then, of course, you can go into how Cloyster can't really take CB'd assaults, how it can't OHKO, or even 2HKO in some cases, how it can't take Stone Edges, Draco Meteors... Life Orbed Fire Blasts... but I don't think we need to. I'm not really sure if Garchomp should be uber'd, but Cloyster definitely doesn't counter it... I realize that Bologo points out that Cloyster would run more (physically) defensive spreads in OU. Either way, it still can't OHKO, it can't take Stone Edges (If Cloyster became a popular counter, Stone Edge might become popular on Garchomp), or CB'd assaults too well, and if it loses all of it's Special Defense EVs, Fire Blast gets at it (and Draco Meteor still does...).
Fire Blast from 6 Sa, Naughty (Scarf)Garchomp does 32.24% - 37.83% to 200 Special Defense, 252 Hp, Relaxed Cloyster. Assuming SR, he can't switch in safely more than once, and if no SR, that's still a hefty amount of damage on something that can't gain Hp back.
Scarfchomp's Earthquake vs. the standard (above) Cloyster does 32.89% - 38.49%. That's a Scarfed Pokemon, the weakest as far as power goes, of all Garchomps. This is another one that likes SR support, but still doesn't need it too much.
Then, of course, you can go into how Cloyster can't really take CB'd assaults, how it can't OHKO, or even 2HKO in some cases, how it can't take Stone Edges, Draco Meteors... Life Orbed Fire Blasts... but I don't think we need to. I'm not really sure if Garchomp should be uber'd, but Cloyster definitely doesn't counter it... I realize that Bologo points out that Cloyster would run more (physically) defensive spreads in OU. Either way, it still can't OHKO, it can't take Stone Edges (If Cloyster became a popular counter, Stone Edge might become popular on Garchomp), or CB'd assaults too well, and if it loses all of it's Special Defense EVs, Fire Blast gets at it (and Draco Meteor still does...).
You guys are thinking it should be uber because of it's good stats. The only reason Garchomp is powerful is because it has several usable sets and thats no reason for him to be uber at all. Just because your team can't counter garchomp effectively (even if there aren't that many counters out) doesn't give anyone any reason to complain about him. Since garchomp is primarily used as a physical user, many walls can counter effectively. Gliscor skarmory bronzong cresselia are just a few. Mixed chomps are probably the hard ones to counter but even they can be countered ussually by anyone that can fly or levitate and has a decent sp. def.
Counter doesn't get affected by Brightpowder or SandVeil and there are quite a few usuable Counterers out there like Glisor and Miltank. I find Miltank especially effective who can PsychUp a SD and survive the Outrage and KO with counter.
Sadly it has degraded to this. There is no complete counter to Garchomp. Accept it, and move on. That's the way most pokemon with insane movepools are. Salamence, Tyranitar, and to a lesser extent, Infernape and Lucario, have no guaranteed counters.
Sending in a counter is only one way to beat a pokemon. You can status it, use spikes to take away it's hp, even use a hail team. Unfortunately for pokemon like Garchomp, on its first move there is nothing that can reliably switch in, so other strategies must be used.
Dusky works as a "buffer" too.
Dusknoir @ Leftovers
Impish
252 HP/76 Spec. Defence/180 Defence
Ice Punch
Shadow Sneak
Wil-o-Wisp
Pain Split
The bolded moves are the ones that hamper/kill Garchomp. The battle would go like this.
Opponent sent out Starmie (Pick any pokemon)
I send in Dusknoir
A: I predict Garchomp to come in and Use Wil-o-wsip
B: I kill Starmie with Shadow Sneak. And Garchomp comes in.
I use Wil-o-wisp to hamper it, if its Specs/Chain/or anything special I would I punch after that. And for calcs...
0 Attack Dusknoir vrs. 0/0 Garchomp Damage: 64.43% - 75.91% (Which most likely does not set off any berries Garchomp think it should have)
That seems like nothing but any good player prepared for Garchomp most likely have Stealth Rocks. Which in that case would be 83% max. Which is a near KO after with Shadow Sneak: 13.17% - 15.69%. So ANY damage before hand = KO, and if Garchomp doesn't kill you after the first Shadow Sneak, you Shadow Sneak again. And for those who are thinking "But Garchomp has a good chance to survive" Think about packing another priority move. Ice Shard Mamoswine, Weavile, Lucario of any type.
Calculations: (All are Adamant Garchomps with a 252/252 spread and the Dusknoir mentioned aboved)
Choice Band Dragon Claw: Damage: 45.58% - 53.40%
Choice Band Outrage: Damage: 67.69% - 79.93%
Choice Band Earthquake: Damage: 56.80% - 66.67%
Swords Dance Dragon Claw: Damage: 56.80% - 66.67%
Swords Dance Outrage: Damage: 90.14% - 106.12%
Swords Dance Earthquake: Damage: 60.20% - 70.75%
(Non-Swords Dance/Band Garchomps are not included as damage is squat)
The rare Crunch is the only true way to 1hko Dusknoir.
So what do we see:
1.Garchomp must have an item to 2hko Dusknoir.
2.Prediction here will kill Garchomp.
3.Garchomp can be defeated by something that is low OU.
And since my Mamoswine killed a Garchomp earlier today...
Mamoswine @ Choice Band
Adamant
252 Attack/Speed
Ice Shard
Stone Edge
Earthquake
Ice Fang
Standard Choice band here always a KO with any of the Ice attacks but...
Damage: 72.30% - 85.04% from an Adamant CHOICE BAND Garchomp Dragon claw, so even with Stealth Rocks up, Mamoswine can say "Good day Garchomp".
And Garchomp's most feared way to kill, Swords Dance.
Damage: 96.12% - 113.02% Adamant Garchomp's Dragon claw after a Swords Dance.
And with good prediction Mamoswine will switch into a Garchomp's Swords Dance and make that Flygon impersonator flee.
so a 160 bp SE attack (80 *2) attack can OHKO noir but a 180 bp STAB attack cant (120 *1.5) interesting...
i revenge kill chomp with my timid scarf froslass adamant, jolly. banded or scarfed she dont care its still a OHKO with blizzard and ice beam and i dont miss due to i remove SS with abomasnow before i send in froslass.
A lot of people are saying that Garchomp is uncounterable. Look at stuff like Lucario and Gengar, list a 100% counter to those two. Are they being though of as uber? NO! Also one more thing, does it centralize the metagame? NO! On paper it looks uncounterable, but are all teams being torn apart by Garchomp? NO! Just my 6 cents.
I think it's worth noting that while Gengar/Lucario/Infernape are all just as 'uncounterable' as Garchomp is...
They're also waaaay more fragile just in general. You can hit any of those three with with neutral STAB attacks and possibly net a 2HKO, which seems quite a bit less likely on Garchomp, given his Swampert-esque defenses.
They're also waaaay more fragile just in general. You can hit any of those three with with neutral STAB attacks and possibly net a 2HKO, which seems quite a bit less likely on Garchomp, given his Swampert-esque defenses.
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