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Garchomp, the most broken pokemon in OU.
- Thread starter xcfrisco
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what new set? i dont recall ever hearing new sets lately, would you be kind to elaborate on what new garchomp set you are referring to?
Its not really a new set, more of a much deadlier and efficient EV spread which takes advantage of Garchomps stupidly high offenses and defenses. Now even Ice attacks are for the most part unreliable against Garchomp.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36903
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36903
Maybe you should, I dunno take a look around. I guess it's tough though. I forgive you.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36903
Edit: I can't even comprehend why this is still a subject. It's obvious and apparent in the last 18 pages of this topic that Garchomp over-centralizes is broken, and is too much for OU.
I would think testing would be in order at least. Make him OU for 2 weeks to a month, if pokes run rampant without check than maybe he would need to be brought back. As for now, I'm still shocked this is even a discussion.
Ugh, thats way too scary, considering that set and ev spread, if anything misses, you are pretty much goner under the might of Garchomp :[
Salac + SD coupled with that "bulky" sp def, and that hax trait, it can pretty much ohko/2hko anything with impunity
Proof is clear its broken beyond belief in OU since CB ice shard is pretty much only thing it has to worry about, if that is not overcenteralization, then i have lost my faith in metagame :[
Salac + SD coupled with that "bulky" sp def, and that hax trait, it can pretty much ohko/2hko anything with impunity
Proof is clear its broken beyond belief in OU since CB ice shard is pretty much only thing it has to worry about, if that is not overcenteralization, then i have lost my faith in metagame :[
Hail teams probably won't have too much trouble with the new Garchomp set. LOL Rhyperior no longer guarentees an OHKO with Blizzard (but Stealth Rocks + Hail makes it a guarentee), but practically everything else still can still kill that Garchomp.
I'll give it a couple of weeks so that a few warstories come in before I settle down on my thoughts however. There might be a blatantly obvious mistake in the set that will only come out through battling. If none come out, I'd have to say that set makes Garchomp as close to Uber as we are going to get, as now "just killing" Garchomp is no longer the issue, you have to overkill them to be safe from that set.
Remember, you are losing some 180 Atk EVs and a Life Orb. Surely some counters have come about.
Of course, if Hail Teams and Priority Moves are the only solid battle plans to Garchomp, I'd have to say Uber.
I'll give it a couple of weeks so that a few warstories come in before I settle down on my thoughts however. There might be a blatantly obvious mistake in the set that will only come out through battling. If none come out, I'd have to say that set makes Garchomp as close to Uber as we are going to get, as now "just killing" Garchomp is no longer the issue, you have to overkill them to be safe from that set.
Remember, you are losing some 180 Atk EVs and a Life Orb. Surely some counters have come about.
Of course, if Hail Teams and Priority Moves are the only solid battle plans to Garchomp, I'd have to say Uber.
I don't see how hitting specific numbers to OHKO a certain pokemon is overcentralizing. You had to do it before, except then it was only 266. There are magic numbers people take into account all of the time when making EV spreads. You still have to deal with Yache Garchomp all of the time, this new EV spread isn't much different. Yes, it gives Garchomp the ability to hold a different item, but it's still not surviving an Ice Beam from anything boosted (Life Orb, Expert Belt, STAB, stat boost, whatever).
Yeah, there is nothing unbeatable about this set. And as DT pointed out, it's not maxing out its attack, which means you will be able to more easily counter it with something that would otherwise get 2HKOd.
What I do think is a valid point is just that this is one more possibility on top of what already amounts to an enormous list of possible uses for Garchomp. One of the reasons why I always hear about Mew being uber is that it is so versatile it's almost impossible to deal with because you can't have a clue what it will do. So, if it's an argument for uberhood you're looking for, I think that's the best one you get from this update.
What I do think is a valid point is just that this is one more possibility on top of what already amounts to an enormous list of possible uses for Garchomp. One of the reasons why I always hear about Mew being uber is that it is so versatile it's almost impossible to deal with because you can't have a clue what it will do. So, if it's an argument for uberhood you're looking for, I think that's the best one you get from this update.
Mew's versatility far outclasses anything save Arceus, though...Garchomp's always doing the (relatively) same thing (physical attacking). Mew can physical attack with Swords Dance, Special attack with Nasty Plot, Rock Polish, Amnesia, Barrier...and baton pass? And hypnosis? And any move there are TMs for? Much more versatile than Garchomp.
And that is relevant how? The topic is whether Garchomp is too powerful for OU, not how he compares with other ubers (otherwise Deoxys (normal form) would not be uber because he is really bad compared to Deoxys A)
Difference being is lots of Pokemon could hit 266 easily and learn Ice Beam. Needing the regions of 280-300 requires you to be in the regions of base 80-100 with near max s.atk investment.
The bad thing about this is many Pokemon out there already have to rely on something like Sub + Ice move to get the job done or being plain fast. I know I see Lanturn and Ludicolo struggle to OHKO most Garchomp variations as it is with Ice Beam. Now even if they run near max they'll still get screwed over?
Even more realistically speaking most things NEED HP Ice to hurt the thing (Gengar, Infernape, PorygonZ come to mind). The absolute MINIMUM s.atk to have a 1% chance of OHKO'ing the new spread with HP Ice is 380 s.atk. Not even base 130's reach that level of s.atk unless they run +s.atk AND have a minimum investment of 200 EV's.
Keep in mind if you fail to OHKO than Garchomp will automatically be faster than you.
From the Other thread:
Dr.Traveler said:
So its a powerful set, and Ice Beam Counters may not work, but BulkyDos WILL get it.
So we'll all need something like BulkyDos to counter it? Can you count all of the things that do what BulkyDos can do on more than one hand? Sounds like a problem to me, but I'll reserve judgment for when I actually face one with that set.
Or just, you know, use an attack that does less than 75% to Garchomp the first time you see it. Then when you use that Ice Beam, it'll still kill and there's no Salac Berry to worry about. Try using Earthquake the first time you attack Garchomp with Hippowdon, instead of Ice Fang.
Or Cresselia - with that much Sp. Def, her Ice Beam will be terribly weak. Still a 2HKO, but not nearly enough to activate Salac.
But as stated earlier, Sand Veil kicks in 20% of the time. That's already pretty good odds that Ice Fang misses. And, if someone decides to try and fool people, running the "Suicide Sweeper" set with Brightpowder instead of Salac Berry and hoping their opponent assumes he has it (like people assume Magnezone/Dugtrio/Bronzong ALWAYS have Magnet Pull/Arena Trap/Levitate, even if said Pokemon have Levitate/Sand Veil/Heat Proof), those miss odds get much higher.
If you run Brightpowder or Yache Berry, then you lose Salac Berry, which is the whole reason that set exists in the first place.
But with Brightpowder, the chance that at least one of the moves will miss is very high, giving Garchomp the opportunity to hit hard while you lose a turn to Sand Veil & Brightpowder hax. And, since you assume he has Salac, you give him the time to Swords Dance his attack high enough to take you out, along with the rest of your team.
Actually, Brightpowder doesn't always get banned by that item clause.
But what if you had a move that would OHKO a Garchomp without SPDef EVs, but falls short on the "Suicide Sweeper" set? Are you going to throw a weaker attack at it first, assuming it's the SS Set, or are you going to hope it's not the SS Set and go for the OHKO? This is the situation worth looking at, not one where it would only do 85% damage or whatever anyway.
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