iQs: You might want to take a closer look at what Katakiri is saying. He's not claiming that Gardevoir can come in on Scizor or Aegislash due to Trace. Rather, he's saying that when something like Scizor or Aegislash forces it out, Trace can potentially be used later in the match to get an easy switch. There's a wide variety of defensive abilities that Gardevoir can copy, making it easy to bring onto the field against certain threats.
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Pokémon Gardevoir
- Thread starter Halcyon.
- Start date
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iQs__
1. I'm short on time and my patience is gone.
2. I have explained this TWICE now, but here's a third: You're not switching into Scizor, you're switching into Heatran, Joltoen, Thundurus-T, Vaporeon, Gastrodon, and whatever else to copy their Flash Fire, Water Absorb, Volt Absorb, etc. Then you have a free turn to do whatever until Scizor switches back in.
3.
4. Ninjask hasn't been OU since Gen 4. It's an NU Pokemon because it's sole existence is for a gimmick team. Here's how Gen 6 hurts Baton Pass teams even more:
Mega Khangaskhan used Power-Up Punch 3 times to match the Defense boosting.
Mega Khangaskhan processes to spam +6 Return as you can't even get a Sub up.
or
Talonflame used Swords Dance 3 times.
Talonflame spams Acrobatics.
or
Hippodow used Whirlwind.
Espeon switch in? Switch back and EQ. Did they Baton Pass? Hit Whirlwind again.
Whirlwind ignores Protect so Speed boosting is a no without Taunt.
Please just stop. I've been playing actively since D/P Shoddy days despite the join date for this account. I know what hell I'm talking about.
1. I'm short on time and my patience is gone.
2. I have explained this TWICE now, but here's a third: You're not switching into Scizor, you're switching into Heatran, Joltoen, Thundurus-T, Vaporeon, Gastrodon, and whatever else to copy their Flash Fire, Water Absorb, Volt Absorb, etc. Then you have a free turn to do whatever until Scizor switches back in.
3.
I love repeating myself three god-damned times.
4. Ninjask hasn't been OU since Gen 4. It's an NU Pokemon because it's sole existence is for a gimmick team. Here's how Gen 6 hurts Baton Pass teams even more:
Mega Khangaskhan used Power-Up Punch 3 times to match the Defense boosting.
Mega Khangaskhan processes to spam +6 Return as you can't even get a Sub up.
or
Talonflame used Swords Dance 3 times.
Talonflame spams Acrobatics.
or
Hippodow used Whirlwind.
Espeon switch in? Switch back and EQ. Did they Baton Pass? Hit Whirlwind again.
Whirlwind ignores Protect so Speed boosting is a no without Taunt.
Please just stop. I've been playing actively since D/P Shoddy days despite the join date for this account. I know what hell I'm talking about.
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Aren't you a special snowflake, tell me what a new person like you have to tell anyone like me who has been playing since Pokemon yellow? tbh all I am hearing is negatively for any idea that isn't your own and I am going to turn it around as it could be said right now that gardevoir has multiple ways it can come to the field and mess up someone's day, personally I like the sweeper version as it is sort of what she was "before" D/P, and going mega helps that all the more from my personal testing. (love it so much, it is like she is throwing the elemental punches again)
Then again, go mega with the right nature, and you can special wall, as most people over look that her going mega increases Sp.Atk, Sp.Def and speed, (by the by, for all the nay sayers, wish you the best getting the same with any other item.) I digress, as well it doesn't matter, she doesn't even have to go mega to be a threat to dragon, and with destiny bond, your sizor is K.O.end all the same with other items. It is a shame the negitives can't see the forest for the trees, but the argument that gardevoir isn't the absolute best in one niche or another, but could be considered second best at best pretty much puts forth an argument for her unique utility. You don't know what you are fighting when she comes out. Then again, going to tie it in because maybe it is because of simple frustration that the negativity is coming in, and I can understand that. Just saying that from what I have seen so far, the multiple ways gardevoir can be played and the synergy she can achieve with other Pokemon, no strategy should be counted out. I am not afraid to say that I run a psyshock, focus miss, shadow ball and echoed voice set with her mega stone. It is just how I see her. Let's just stay positive here :)
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Implying M. Kankaskhan doesn't already destroy most teams out there, baton pass or not. You're forced to carry Scizor or something with WoW. OH and look. Scizor gets Baton Pass. You're assuming the baton passer is an idiot who would let M.Kankaskhan set up to begin with.
Yet again you assume the Baton Passer is an idiot by allowing Talonflame to set up those 3 swords dances to begin with. Before it even gets a second one in, I've already passed boosts to the proper counter able to easily take down a +2 Talonflame.
As if the Espeon wouldn't attack on the switch. You're switching in to a boosted Psychic/Psyshock, and Hippowdown is by no means faster than Espeon, so it's going to take two of them. Oh, and they could just baton pass to a levitater/flying-type in case the hippowdon survives.
Stop assuming people are blind morons who let pokemon set up in their face. +6 Kangkaskhan? +6 Talonflame? Oh, well then I'll just use Swords Dance on Scizor 3 times while you get +6 on kankaskhan and then OHKO it with Bullet Punch. Have fun with that.
Scizor would have to switch into a Destiny Bond for that to work. Otherwise Bullet Punch just flat out kills you.
Gardevoir should be hit and run by the look of things. I say Thunderwave + 3 attacks. Trace at the right time can help in a variety of ways, but if anything other than a Electric or Ground type is a likely switch in then Thunder Wave puts you in a REALLY good spot. Trace + Dragon immunity + 4x Fighting resist means there are a fair amount of switch in opportunities. Afterwards wreck with Hyper Voice, Psyshock, Energy Ball, Focus Blast, etc. Afterwards her bloated SpD stat means she can be a decent switch into certain moves and can again proceed to paralyze and threaten with strong attacks. The question is, is this worth your Mega slot?
Good point with destiny bond, and all the same, nice move spread! :)I will try it later myself, just wish they gave her access to something like ice beam.
I've been running a mono-Fairy team (I'm #1 on the ladder in 3 servers and #20 in Smogon's ladder) and I have to say that Gardevoir is the MVP half of the time.
However, I think that Gardevoir really shines with a Choice Scarf rather than Gardevoirite. In my 7-8 years of comp battling, I've never understood how amazing Trace is until now. Defensively, Trace allows Gardy to switch in on Heatran, Gastrodon (nobody uses this thing anymore), Gliscor, Thundurus/Jolteon, Landorus, Chandelure with some prediction, and so much more. Offensively, Scarf Gardy can predict lead Scoliopede, outspeed and KO, and then continue to boost its speed. While this doesn't mean as much as it would in gen 5 with physical priority running everywhere, it really helps when facing scarf Heliosk, MAlakazam, and Deo-S.
For everyone arguing that Scizor/Talonflame/[insert physical priority user here] counters Gardevoir, please stop. Your argument has as much merit as arguing that Aegislash will sweep if it gets to +6; smart players will not stay in on said counters. Gardevoir losing its weakness to Pursuit (it also doesn't OHKO anymore) is also a plus. Gardevoir really works well with Skarmory and Landorus-I as the 2 can switch into just about everything that threatens Gardevoir.
I haven't really tested MGardevoir because, as many others have pointed out, she doesn't really need to mega evolve to be good. Her Fairy typing is honestly good enough.
However, I think that Gardevoir really shines with a Choice Scarf rather than Gardevoirite. In my 7-8 years of comp battling, I've never understood how amazing Trace is until now. Defensively, Trace allows Gardy to switch in on Heatran, Gastrodon (nobody uses this thing anymore), Gliscor, Thundurus/Jolteon, Landorus, Chandelure with some prediction, and so much more. Offensively, Scarf Gardy can predict lead Scoliopede, outspeed and KO, and then continue to boost its speed. While this doesn't mean as much as it would in gen 5 with physical priority running everywhere, it really helps when facing scarf Heliosk, MAlakazam, and Deo-S.
For everyone arguing that Scizor/Talonflame/[insert physical priority user here] counters Gardevoir, please stop. Your argument has as much merit as arguing that Aegislash will sweep if it gets to +6; smart players will not stay in on said counters. Gardevoir losing its weakness to Pursuit (it also doesn't OHKO anymore) is also a plus. Gardevoir really works well with Skarmory and Landorus-I as the 2 can switch into just about everything that threatens Gardevoir.
I haven't really tested MGardevoir because, as many others have pointed out, she doesn't really need to mega evolve to be good. Her Fairy typing is honestly good enough.
Well then...I'll just go ahead and ignore the shit storm of Baton Pass arguments and such.... To see if we can get this back on track. Now i don't know if this was mentioned before (and i usually start my posts with this) But whatever form of Gardevoir you use, She LOVES sticky webs. The Sticky web support lets her safely check Garchomp no matter what he's running, and lets the mega sweep much easier. Yes she hates priority, but so do most other sweepers. The question of "is she worth your megaslot?" I would say she is if thats what your team needs. She is a very niche pokemon and should be considered if your team has issues dealing with the things that gardevoir can handle. I don't even think you have to go mega most of the time. Although it feels like a waste of an item, you can run her along side another mega that can handle itself without mega-evolving (something like scizor, Gengar, TTar, Luke etc.) and keep her as a back up plan, choosing what poke you want to mega evolve in the battle. She does also get access to wish, which is something to consider if you opt out of mega. Overall, She has versatile utility and is a very good option for those teams needing a versatile check to threats that boast scary abilities. She switch in on Multiscale Dnite very easily, and scare it out with the prospect of moonblast or WoW. She's like the Jack of all trades, master of none.
Alternatively, Calm mind set + Sticky webs up can be a very scary thing if you can rid yourself of talonflame.
So maybe she won't be Tier'd OU, but she has her viability that shouldn't be overlooked when teambuilding.
Alternatively, Calm mind set + Sticky webs up can be a very scary thing if you can rid yourself of talonflame.
So maybe she won't be Tier'd OU, but she has her viability that shouldn't be overlooked when teambuilding.
All fairy team? That sounds awesome, any chance to get team member names or is that more I will know if I face you? And like the use of choice scarf, you running focus miss or thunderbolt? It is just how gardevoir use to be set up and like I said there isn't anything wrong with it :)
Gardevoir, Togekiss, Klefki, Clefable, Azumarill, and MMawile :P
I was running Focus Miss on Gardevoir but I just changed it to Trick. I might change it again to HP Ground as it reliably 2HKO's Heatran.
Typo in the OP - MGardevoir has 165 SpA, not 175.
As someone who is bound and determined to use MGardevoir, is 100 base Speed really high enough to warrant focusing on instead of survivability? It seems like anything that would threaten MGardevoir is either slow enough that she'll outspeed regardless or too fast for her to outspeed at all.
As someone who is bound and determined to use MGardevoir, is 100 base Speed really high enough to warrant focusing on instead of survivability? It seems like anything that would threaten MGardevoir is either slow enough that she'll outspeed regardless or too fast for her to outspeed at all.
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He meant he's around competitively since D/P. I'm pretty sure you weren't a competitive player with your Pikachu.
Yes, Gardevoir can mess around a lot... but Katakiri's point is that it needs Trace. Something MegaGardevoir doesn't have.
With no recovery? Or are you seriously going to use Wish+Protect?
Azumarill doesn't either.
How does Destiny Bond go before Bullet Punch?
Again, that was the whole point. Gardevoir is unpredictable with Trace, which she forgoes upon Evolving, and that's a bad thing because the opportunity cost is just too high (aka not using other Megas) for not getting much. As much as I like the idea of a 117 BP STAB that goes through Substitutes, losing Trace may be just too much, and that's what Katakiri's advocating.
Cut down that attitude, we don't need that in this forum.
Staying positive doesn't mean blindly ignoring her weaknesses.
And to anyone that suggested Baton Passing boosts to Gardevoir: that's a moot point competitively because the same could be done to any pokémon. This is why you never see people seriously suggesting it, even in Shellpass threads.
And Katakiri, I know I have no power here in UT, but I'm asking you to try not to use the join date argument again. I know you're frustrated with the last posts in this thread, but it makes you look like as too obnoxious and doesn't add much to the discussion.
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Okay, I can say I am sorry for bringing some negativity into the topic myself. It just erks me when someone says some game date as if it means they are superior. All that being said, your comment about baton passers being a moot point intrigues me, as I always think the moot points are the fun points. Still I am a believer that anytime you can stay in and fight when you got a bad trace is good. Does it lose something, of course, but if gardevoir can stay in and do her job, that is better a lot of the time to bringing her back. However I conced that the gardevoir set that was brought up by noahstar was nice too, and it is one I am going to use soon as it is pretty scary. So there are beneficial sides to both sides of the argument. Are there better megas, I am sure there are better megas in one realm or another, but I am just saying it is another thing she can pull out of her hat. I enjoy theory, still do I know she has issues with priority, I don't know anyone on this topic who doesn't. I just want to talk about the true reason for the topic here, the exchange of ideas on how to make and play gardevoir better.
Oh, sure, you bring a valid point: whether Gardevoir is better using Gardevoirite as a plan B or an afterthought of sorts, or actively trying to abuse its Mega. I don't think I have a valid answer for that, though.
And when I say BP is moot, it's because it works for everyone, not that it's more or less valid or fun. Anything can be good with some Passing, that's why it can't be an argument for Gardevoir's viability.
HP and Defenses are kinda irrelevant, as they don't change between both forms; same with no Hyper Voice before Mega, because you'll want to MegaEvolve as soon as possible (unless you want Trace, but it doesn't matter if you believe it's being overvalued). What really makes MegaGardevoir shaky, imo, are the other two points: taking up the Mega slot for a stronger STAB and only 100 Speed. I'm pretty sure there's something everyone's been missing that does make MegaGardevoir worth the slot, but for now, it really seems to be a "niche" Mega.
And when I say BP is moot, it's because it works for everyone, not that it's more or less valid or fun. Anything can be good with some Passing, that's why it can't be an argument for Gardevoir's viability.
HP and Defenses are kinda irrelevant, as they don't change between both forms; same with no Hyper Voice before Mega, because you'll want to MegaEvolve as soon as possible (unless you want Trace, but it doesn't matter if you believe it's being overvalued). What really makes MegaGardevoir shaky, imo, are the other two points: taking up the Mega slot for a stronger STAB and only 100 Speed. I'm pretty sure there's something everyone's been missing that does make MegaGardevoir worth the slot, but for now, it really seems to be a "niche" Mega.
Gardevoir
Item: Gardevoirite
EV: HP-252 Spdef-252 Spatk-4
Nature: Calm
Wish
Will-O-Wisp
Healing Wish
Moonblast
Personally I`m running a "generation" type of party (one poke from each generation) and currently using MGardevoir as a spatk wall/support. She really can take hits and heal heal herself with wish pretty well or set up a heal for someone else, will-o-wisp cripples those physical attackers if you can predict when they`re going to go in before you switch her out. I love healing wish, some might have a thing against it, but I personally love it. Being able to start all over again if/when my sweeper gets low is just marvelous for me. Also, I don`t run anyone else that I want to mega evolve, so it`s all a win-win for me. Don`t know if this has been considered.
In case anyone`s curious, this is my team: Starmie, Scizor, Gardevoir, Gliscor, Volcarona and Noivern/Dragalge (constantly switch the last slot depending on what I think I`ll need).
Item: Gardevoirite
EV: HP-252 Spdef-252 Spatk-4
Nature: Calm
Wish
Will-O-Wisp
Healing Wish
Moonblast
Personally I`m running a "generation" type of party (one poke from each generation) and currently using MGardevoir as a spatk wall/support. She really can take hits and heal heal herself with wish pretty well or set up a heal for someone else, will-o-wisp cripples those physical attackers if you can predict when they`re going to go in before you switch her out. I love healing wish, some might have a thing against it, but I personally love it. Being able to start all over again if/when my sweeper gets low is just marvelous for me. Also, I don`t run anyone else that I want to mega evolve, so it`s all a win-win for me. Don`t know if this has been considered.
In case anyone`s curious, this is my team: Starmie, Scizor, Gardevoir, Gliscor, Volcarona and Noivern/Dragalge (constantly switch the last slot depending on what I think I`ll need).
Yeah, the issue with trace is that its usefulness is entirely dependent on your opponent's team. Which is why i run Taunt/Destiny Bond/Moon Blast (or Psychic)/Focus Blast. Having taunt and destiny bond allows it to annoy at least something on most teams as well as allowing you to screw over the likes of Mega Mawile and Mega Kangaskhan which would otherwise be huge threats. It gives Gardevoir a use other than abusing trace and countering special dragons.
Gardevoir has always been a personal favorite and I've always tried to make it work. After much testing I've found a bulky set with will-o-wisp and wish to be my personal favorite. It's just a shame that the mega-evo doesn't add enough bulk to make up for the loss of leftovers.
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I would like to contribute some opinions on your Gard because a 68 base HP with 252 EVs don't create a bulky set. Maybe you try to maximise her Sp.Def so that she can take 1 or 2 more special attacks, but Gardevoir by no means has a bulky set or anything related to the word "bulky" in my opinion. WoW healer support Gard is not really a good choice tbqh. A casual WoW to cripple things like Scizor on switch with an offensive set is good, but not a Wish/WoW set with literally no investments in offensive points. You can't really wall effectively (on certain occasions you can but it is purely based on type effectiveness and immunities), and physical sweeper can take you down quite fast since you are not fast enough.
The final thing I want to say that, because you view Gard in your team as a bulky support, so Mega-Gard is useless with you. And not that it does not add enough bulk, it does not add any bulk at all. If you consider 20 Sp.Def is bulk then I have nothing to say. However, 165 SpA, 3rd to Mega-Gengar and Mega-Alakazam, is very very scary. 20 boost in Speed is highly appreciated for a sweeper. All of those changes lead to a conclusion: Mega-Gard is a sweeper.
If you want to play her in another role, you are better off just keep her in normal form with Trace.
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I really love Gardevoir. She is in my team since the beginning of the game.
I'm running this set in game and in rating battles (with some success):
Gardevoir@choice scarf
EV: 252spa, 252spe, 4hp
Nature: Hardy
Dazzling Glean
Psychic
Shadow Ball
Thunderbolt/Grass Knot
Basically, the main objective is revenge kill something and (if possible), sweep. This set isn't the ideal, yet, because the wrong Nature and the lack of Moonblast. Dazzling Glean is the main STAB, easy to spam and OHKO some key foes (like greninja and gengar). Shadow Ball gives excellent neutral coverage and hits opposing Psychic types. Psychic is only for Poison types. Thunderbolt and Grass Knot are for extra coverage. I prefer Thunderbolt, because is more reliable.
I don't like to use Focus Miss, because of bad accuracy and is somewhat redundant alongside with a Fairy attack.
Some calcs with the ideal set (with Timid nature and the Moonblast):
252 SpA Gardevoir Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 230-272 (67.4 - 79.7%)
252 SpA Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 170-202 (58.4 - 69.4%)
252 SpA Gardevoir Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge: 180-212 (53.8 - 63.4%)
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 153-180 (47.3 - 55.7%)
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 348-410 (97.4 - 114.8%)
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 402-474 (141 - 166.3%)
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 318-374 (89 - 104.7%)
252 SpA Gardevoir Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 300-354 (114.9 - 135.6%)
I'm running this set in game and in rating battles (with some success):
Gardevoir@choice scarf
EV: 252spa, 252spe, 4hp
Nature: Hardy
Dazzling Glean
Psychic
Shadow Ball
Thunderbolt/Grass Knot
Basically, the main objective is revenge kill something and (if possible), sweep. This set isn't the ideal, yet, because the wrong Nature and the lack of Moonblast. Dazzling Glean is the main STAB, easy to spam and OHKO some key foes (like greninja and gengar). Shadow Ball gives excellent neutral coverage and hits opposing Psychic types. Psychic is only for Poison types. Thunderbolt and Grass Knot are for extra coverage. I prefer Thunderbolt, because is more reliable.
I don't like to use Focus Miss, because of bad accuracy and is somewhat redundant alongside with a Fairy attack.
Some calcs with the ideal set (with Timid nature and the Moonblast):
252 SpA Gardevoir Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 230-272 (67.4 - 79.7%)
252 SpA Gardevoir Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Delphox: 170-202 (58.4 - 69.4%)
252 SpA Gardevoir Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge: 180-212 (53.8 - 63.4%)
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 153-180 (47.3 - 55.7%)
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 348-410 (97.4 - 114.8%)
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 402-474 (141 - 166.3%)
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 318-374 (89 - 104.7%)
252 SpA Gardevoir Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gengar: 300-354 (114.9 - 135.6%)
I never claimed that this was going to be an ou allstar. I never even talked about tiers or anything. All I said was it is a personal favorite. The only psychics I ever use are baton pass mew, tinkerbell celebi and dual screen espeon, and mewtwo in ubers.
That being said, I did used to have a good deal of success with this in gen 4. The thing that makes it work is that almost everything that wants to switch into gardevoir absolutely hates being burned.
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Edit: missed the note on no Moonblast yet.
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