Gen 8 CAP Updates - CAP 1 - Syclant

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SHSP

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Hello! Welcome to the Generation 8 Syclant update thread. In this thread, we will be updating the movepool of one of our past CAP creations to better match the changes Gamefreak made in Generation 8.

A major change that occurred between this update cycle and the last was to significantly narrow the scope of CAP updates. Abilities, statlines, and typings will not be changed during the course of this update. Only changes to a CAP's movepool will be allowed. Additionally, full movepool changes are also off the table, as the Update Leaders will decide where to distribute moves for their respective Pokemon based off logic and the ICC.

Furthermore, we have defined what type of changes are allowed to movepools, as well as the type of moves up for discussion. Movepool changes will be broken down in two categories: removals and additions. Moves that are subject to removal are those that have been rendered unusable in Sword and Shield, such as Pursuit, and past generation tutors and Technical Machiness that are not available as a Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Move that are subject to addition are moves introduced in Sword and Shield and moves that are new Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Please make sure that any moves brought up in this thread fall under at least one of these categories.

We have also defined the following considerations for use in evaluating move removals and additions. The foremost consideration is that any change proposed fits both the flavor of the CAP in question and the flavor of Generation 8 as a whole. This means that all changes should follow trends and precedents seen in Generation 8. Intentional buffing and balancing of CAP Pokemon is not the intent of this update cycle. We also wish to avoid the creation of an unbalanced CAP Pokemon. Therefore, the second consideration for move changes is the competitive impact of said changes. Moves that are clearly too powerful will be banned from discussion by the Update Leader.

This update cycle also has a set schedule. For four weeks, each of the seven Update Leaders will post a discussion thread for a single CAP Pokemon. This thread will be used for the discussion of changes to a CAPs movepool as explained in this post. Each thread will have six days reserved for discussion on potential changes to a CAP's movepool. On the seventh day, the Update Leader will collect the ICC and determine what will be changed. Controversial changes will be subject to a poll.

For the discussion of Syclant, please refer here for the CAP's full movepool. Some other resources the CAP mods have compiled to make discussion easier is this list of cut moves that are distributed to our CAP pokemon, and this list of past TMs that were not included as Gen 8 TMs and TRs. Note that for the TM list, moves with * are those that have been cut entirely.
 

SHSP

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Alrighty, apologies for the delay (being sick sucks :[ ) but moving onto my second update, CAP numero uno, Syclant:

Red means the move is not in SWSH
Blue means the move isn't a TM or TR in SWSH, so if we decide that it should be in Jumbao's Generation 8 movepool, it must be moved in Level Up or Egg Moves (and thus requires discussion)
Green moves would be blue, except the move already appears in Level Up or Egg Moves

-Icicle Spear
-Leer
-Absorb
Evo: Ice Punch
5 Ice Shard
10 Focus Energy
14 Fury Attack
19 Icy Wind
23 Fury Cutter
28 Slash
32 X-Scissor
37 Hail
41 Icicle Crash
46 Bug Buzz
50 Avalanche
55 Rock Climb
59 Sheer Cold


Counter (Herracross)
Double-Edge
Earth Power
Fell Stinger (Beedrill)
Mimic
Pin Missile
Signal Beam
Spikes
Superpower
Tail Glow


TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM10 Hidden Power
TM12 Taunt
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM21 Frustration
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM28 Leech Life
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM52 Focus Blast
TM54 False Swipe
TM56 Fling
TM59 Brutal Swing
TM68 Giga Impact
TM71 Stone Edge
TM72 Avalanche
TM75 Swords Dance
TM78 Bulldoze
TM79 Frost Breath
TM80 Rock Slide
TM81 X-Scissor
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM100 Confide


Bug Bite
Earth Power
Focus Punch
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Signal Beam
Snore
Superpower
Water Pulse


Captivate (G4 TM78)
Cut (HM01)
Endure (G4 TM56)
Hone Claws (G5/6 TM01)
Natural Gift (G4 TM83)
Rock Smash (G4/ORAS HM06 / G5/XY TM94)
Secret Power (G4 TM43 / ORAS TM94)
Strength (HM04)
String Shot (G4 Tutor)
Struggle Bug (G5/6 TM76)


Questions of the day update:

1: Clant is losing a lot of moves in transition (those in blue here), though most range in effectiveness and usefulness. Which of these blue moves should be worked back into the movepool, and which should get the axe?

2: Are there any fitting additions for Syclant in this new generation?
 
Counter and Fell Stinger should go to its Level 1 slot. First Impression and Aurora Veil greatly fit Syclant. It can get First Impression from Golisopod and Aurora Veil from Frosmoth so those can be an egg moves. Earth Power, Spikes and Superpower are TRs and Pin Missile is a TM so those can be removed from the egg move list

PS: I noticed from its initial Gen 4 movepool that it had access to the elemental fangs and Crunch. Did those moves get removed in a previous revamp??
 
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1: Clant is losing a lot of moves in transition (those in blue here), though most range in effectiveness and usefulness. Which of these blue moves should be worked back into the movepool, and which should get the axe?
I agree that Counter and Fell Stinger fit well on the level 1 slot. I wanted to attempt to fit Water Pulse in as an egg move but there is no possible parent and I don't think it should be allowed by level up.
2: Are there any fitting additions for Syclant in this new generation?
Rock Blast, Ice Fang, Stomping Tantrum are new TM's that fit well and have very few competitive implications.
Nasty Plot is a new TR that could be integrated in Syclant's movepool in order to compensate it for the loss of Tail Glow, notably working like gen 4 Tail Glow. I think it is worth considering if we want to preserve the special set up sweeper angle of Syclant, however the flavor isn't the strongest (although Nasty Plot has a fairly loose one) and ultimately these updates are not primarily competitively minded.
 

-Voltage-

OTTN5
is a Pre-Contributor
Nice job c/ping Jumbao's post

Looking at the list of new moves introduced in this gen, I can't really see Syclant getting any of them to be honest. Give it Bolt Beak imo That said, there are some moves that got a decent distribution that I think are worth considering.

I will echo the proposition for Syclant to get First Impression. I understand that there are likely going to be noticeable competitive implications from this, but the flavor exists as well and that's what currently being argued. It's gotten some decent distribution this gen and given the nature of Syclant being a fast moving bug, and that the distribution now also covers Dragon and fighting typed mons in addition to Bug mons, I could see Syclant potentially having a flavorful justification. It DEFINITELY would need a competitiveness check though.

Also like before, I'd say Nasty Plot is a fine substitute for Tail Glow. Honestly, I didn't see Syclant having that "firefly-esque" tail in the first place and even without a huge flavor argument, it just kind of works.

Also give it Ice Fang, I can't really see why this would be an issue competitively, and it makes great flavor sense.
 
Counter and Fell Stinger still work as egg moves (Dwebble <- Sudowoodo and Escavalier, respectively), I don't see a particular reason to move them to level-up.

Pin Missile, Earth Power, Spikes and Superpower are TM/TRs and as such they should be removed from the egg move pool.

Mimic and Focus Punch are not currently available to compatible parents, but neither of them seems particularly fitting.
 
Re First Impression, what mon are there that would switch or attempt to revenge kill Syclant, who are now unable to do so with First Impression's availability? Assuming it's not Choice locked of course. Weavile, Jumbao?
 

MrDollSteak

formerly pokehimon
is a Pre-Contributor
One good point about First Impression is that it doesn't fit onto Choice Sets, so the competitive implications are solely for a Life Orb set, which is likely inferior to the existing Band set, and as such I support it too.
 
One good point about First Impression is that it doesn't fit onto Choice Sets, so the competitive implications are solely for a Life Orb set, which is likely inferior to the existing Band set, and as such I support it too.
First Impression can definitely fit on a Band set, many current users of it such as Sirfetch'd often run Band. Anyway I am fairly sure it can't be suggested because it isn't a new move or a new TM/TR.
 

Jho

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First Impression can definitely fit on a Band set, many current users of it such as Sirfetch'd often run Band. Anyway I am fairly sure it can't be suggested because it isn't a new move or a new TM/TR.
Its distribution was changed pretty heavily so I can see why people would be interested in it, however, like you said First Impression is an excellent addition to band sets. In fact, its almost exclusively run on Band sets between Durant, Haxorous, and Golisopod. This addition would have pretty huge competitive implications as it makes revenge killing Pokemon such as Aurumoth, Caribolt, Colossoil (First Impression goes before Sucker Punch), opposing Syclant much, much easier. It would also be the single strongest Bug move for Syclant, which adding a new most Powerful STAB might be the definition of a competitive upgrade. I really really am against giving this move to Syclant because it's actually quite a huge addition to its arsenal, despite being quite flavorful
 

MrDollSteak

formerly pokehimon
is a Pre-Contributor
First Impression can definitely fit on a Band set, many current users of it such as Sirfetch'd often run Band. Anyway I am fairly sure it can't be suggested because it isn't a new move or a new TM/TR.
Interesting I wasn't aware that this was run considering it whiffs on later turns, I guess a forced switch is fine for a strong priority move.
 

cbrevan

spin, spin, spin
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I'm against First Impression Syclant. I honestly don't believe the flavor for it is strong enough to warrant such a powerful move. First Impression distribution is limited to a handful of families and we're discussing adding it to Syclant because it's a fast bug, which doesn't mean much when you look at the patchwork distribution the move has now. If we opt to keep First Impression off of Syclant, which I think we should, I doubt people will be any more confused as to why Syclant lacks the move than they would with other real Pokemon.

Going into the competitive implications of the move, First Impression does a ton for Syclant. I'm actually surprised that people are even considering the move given how powerful it is and how probable it is that First Impression would warp Syclant around it's usage. Powerful priority is the type of tool that defines Pokemon and giving First Impression to a Pokemon who could so easily abuse it seems to go against every competitive check we've put in place for these updates. The simple truth is that First Impression is a competitive move because it has already seen usage on other Pokemon who have access to it. It's not up in the air whether or not the move is good or could be used because it absolutely can. Syclant already fosters a playstyle that would allow First Impression to be used. Most importantly, First Impression allows Syclant to turn a number of otherwise losing matchups into clear wins, which is the clearest indicator that the move is too much.
 

Deck Knight

Reality Saves Lives. Fantasy Destroys Them.
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First Impression Syclant is definitely a competitive move. It fits right at home on Band sets and sets up a great synergy with U-turn. First Impression/U-turn/Icicle Crash/Earthquake gives Syclant an amazing revenge pressure option, and don't forget Mountaineer Syclant is immune to Stealth Rock. Faced against a Clant that switched in, you have to guess whether it will pick you off or do a Band U-turn out to change the matchup. First Impression outpaces Sucker Punch and while the move has its own issues, Syclant has great two move coverage in STAB Icicle Crash + Earthquake for coverage. The STAB Bug moves are just amazing tech to sweeten the deal. No to First Impression.

Otherwise I think we should add String Shot and Struggle Bug to replace Signal Beam and Tail Glow in Egg Moves, and then add Nasty Plot to TRs.

A few other flavor additions are Ice Fang, Mega Punch, Metronome, Screech (many bugs get it) and Swift.

Full TM / TR Listing:
TM01 Mega Punch
TM04 Ice Punch
TM07 Pin Missile
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM16 Screech
TM21 Rest
TM22 Rock Slide
TM24 Snore
TM25 Protect
TM27 Icy Wind
TM31 Attract
TM33 Rain Dance
TM35 Hail
TM39 Facade
TM40 Swift
TM43 Brick Break
TM51 Icicle Spear
TM56 U-turn
TM59 Fling
TM64 Avalanche
TM67 Ice Fang
TM76 Round
TM81 Bulldoze
TM94 False Swipe
TM97 Brutal Swing
TR00 Swords Dance
TR05 Ice Beam
TR06 Blizzard
TR10 Earthquake
TR13 Focus Energy
TR14 Metronome
TR18 Leech Life
TR20 Substitute
TR23 Spikes
TR26 Endure
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR37 Taunt
TR39 Superpower
TR60 X-Scissor
TR61 Bug Buzz
TR64 Focus Blast
TR67 Earth Power
TR68 Nasty Plot
TR75 Stone Edge
 
First Impression Syclant is definitely a competitive move. It fits right at home on Band sets and sets up a great synergy with U-turn. First Impression/U-turn/Icicle Crash/Earthquake gives Syclant an amazing revenge pressure option, and don't forget Mountaineer Syclant is immune to Stealth Rock. Faced against a Clant that switched in, you have to guess whether it will pick you off or do a Band U-turn out to change the matchup. First Impression outpaces Sucker Punch and while the move has its own issues, Syclant has great two move coverage in STAB Icicle Crash + Earthquake for coverage. The STAB Bug moves are just amazing tech to sweeten the deal. No to First Impression.

Otherwise I think we should add String Shot and Struggle Bug to replace Signal Beam and Tail Glow in Egg Moves, and then add Nasty Plot to TRs.

A few other flavor additions are Ice Fang, Mega Punch, Metronome, Screech (many bugs get it) and Swift.

Full TM / TR Listing:
TM01 Mega Punch
TM04 Ice Punch
TM07 Pin Missile
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM16 Screech
TM21 Rest
TM22 Rock Slide
TM24 Snore
TM25 Protect
TM27 Icy Wind
TM31 Attract
TM33 Rain Dance
TM35 Hail
TM39 Facade
TM40 Swift
TM43 Brick Break
TM51 Icicle Spear
TM56 U-turn
TM59 Fling
TM64 Avalanche
TM67 Ice Fang
TM76 Round
TM81 Bulldoze
TM94 False Swipe
TM97 Brutal Swing
TR00 Swords Dance
TR05 Ice Beam
TR06 Blizzard
TR10 Earthquake
TR13 Focus Energy
TR14 Metronome
TR18 Leech Life
TR20 Substitute
TR23 Spikes
TR26 Endure
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR37 Taunt
TR39 Superpower
TR60 X-Scissor
TR61 Bug Buzz
TR64 Focus Blast
TR67 Earth Power
TR68 Nasty Plot
TR75 Stone Edge
Are moves like Psycho Cut, Cross Poison and Smart Strike allowed or are they banned? These 3 moves greatly fit with Syclant's design. And also Aurora Veil can be an egg move too
 

Deck Knight

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Are moves like Psycho Cut, Cross Poison and Smart Strike allowed or are they banned? These 3 moves greatly fit with Syclant's design. And also Aurora Veil can be an egg move too
Generally speaking when I make suggestions I look at what the CAP already has for coverage. Syclant is a Gen 4 CAP and its Gen 7 Updates were fairly extensive. Syclant has never had Psychic, Poison, or Steel coverage, and those moves are actually fairly limited in distribution anyway. Syclant never even learned Steel Wing back when it was a TM, nor did it get it in updates.

Psycho Cut and Cross Poison themselves have surprisingly limited distribution. Psycho Cut was mostly given to Pokemon that already had it as an Egg Move in prior gens, and the only non-poison type mon to get Cross Poison (that didn't have it or another Poison attack as an egg move prior) is Machamp, presumably because Machamp has 4 arms. Smart Strike and Aurora Veil were TMs last gen and we opted not to give them to Syclant in updates.
 
MaahirMomtaz12 - Smart Strike is not a new TM or TR in Gen 8 (TM67 in Gen 7). While Psycho Cut and Cross Poison are new TM's, they would provide new potentially competitive options and coverage that are not already present in its movepool. If you can prove/justify their inclusions outside of possible "it can cut things with claws".

Aurora Veil offers a fairly large potential competitive impact - it has frail defenses, mitigated only by Mountaineer and its high speed - it being immune to Rocks, set up Veil on a switch, then choose to either boost with Nasty Plot and risk taking a body shot from most Priority, or has now provided dual screens to the party. I'd also missed that it was a TM in Gen 7, probably because Hail/Ice are largely awful.
 

SHSP

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Alrighty, lets get this update wrapped:

-Icicle Spear
-Leer
-Absorb
-Counter
-Fell Stinger
Evo: Ice Punch
5 Ice Shard
10 Focus Energy
14 Fury Attack
19 Icy Wind
23 Fury Cutter
28 Slash
32 X-Scissor
37 Hail
41 Icicle Crash
46 Bug Buzz
50 Avalanche
55 Rock Climb
59 Sheer Cold


Counter
Struggle Bug
String Shot

Double-Edge
Earth Power
Fell Stinger
Pin Missile
Spikes
Superpower


TM01 Mega Punch
TM04 Ice Punch
TM07 Pin Missile
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM16 Screech
TM21 Rest
TM22 Rock Slide
TM24 Snore
TM25 Protect
TM27 Icy Wind
TM31 Attract
TM33 Rain Dance
TM35 Hail
TM39 Facade
TM40 Swift
TM43 Brick Break
TM51 Icicle Spear
TM56 U-turn
TM59 Fling
TM64 Avalanche
TM67 Ice Fang
TM76 Round
TM81 Bulldoze
TM94 False Swipe
TM97 Brutal Swing

TR00 Swords Dance
TR05 Ice Beam
TR06 Blizzard
TR10 Earthquake
TR13 Focus Energy
TR14 Metronome
TR18 Leech Life
TR20 Substitute
TR23 Spikes
TR26 Endure
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR37 Taunt
TR39 Superpower
TR60 X-Scissor
TR61 Bug Buzz
TR64 Focus Blast
TR67 Earth Power
TR68 Nasty Plot
TR75 Stone Edge


First Impression doesn't make the cut- well explained by Jho, CB and Deck, it's just too strong of a move for Clant. Nasty Plot isn't a move that requires much flavor explanation and fits well, so it makes the cut. Rest of the TM additions make obvious flavorful sense. Thank you guys for a clean update, onto the next.
 
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