Gen 9 Indigo Disk DLC - Returning Moves Distribution and Discussion

[snake]

With CAPCL coming to a close soon and with CAP34 kicked off, the CAP Moderators have drafted a list of moves that have returned or been introduced in the Indigo Disk DLC. This thread serves as a summary of all the changes for DLC2, plus revisiting a couple changes in DLC1, as well as the opportunity to make clear, well-supported proposals on any changes these lists may need.

Based on access in a previous generation, these are the moves that each of these CAPs get again in the Indigo Disk. No new signature moves (such as Electro Shot or Fickle Beam) were distributed.

Indigo Disk Returning Moves Distribution

Arghonaut: Coaching, Muddy Water, Skitter Smack, Throat Chop, Whirlpool
Astrolotl: Breaking Swipe, Meteor Beam, Scorching Sands
Aurumoth: Electroweb, Expanding Force, Skitter Smack
Caribolt: Breaking Swipe, Electroweb, Throat Chop
Cawmodore: Breaking Swipe, Throat Chop, Whirlpool
Chromera: Sludge Wave
Colossoil: Scorching Sands
Crucibelle: Meteor Beam, Sludge Wave
Cyclohm: Electroweb, Muddy Water
Equilibra: Psych Up
Fidgit: Psych Up, Scorching Sands, Skitter Smack, Sludge Wave
Hemogoblin: NONE
Jumbao: NONE
Kerfluffle: Coaching, Psych Up, Sludge Wave,
Kitsunoh: Endeavor, Psych Up, Skitter Smack
Krilowatt: Electroweb
Malaconda: Breaking Swipe, Skitter Smack, Throat Chop
Miasmaw: Breaking Swipe, Dragon Hammer, Skitter Smack
Mollux: Skitter Smack
Naviathan: Breaking Swipe
Necturna: Future Sight, Psych Up, Skitter Smack,
Pajantom: Psych Up, Throat Chop, Whirlpool
Plasmanta: Electroweb
Pyroak: Scorching Sands
Revenankh: Coaching, Pain Split, Psych Up, Throat Chop
Saharaja: Scorching Sands
Smokomodo: Scorching Sands
Snaelstrom: Future Sight, Skitter Smack
Stratagem: NONE
Syclant: Skitter Smack, Triple Axel
Tomohawk: Coaching, Throat Chop
Venomicon: Sludge Wave
Volkraken: Muddy Water, Scorching Sands
Voodoom: Coaching, Skitter Smack

Additionally, to reflect the increased distribution of Pain Split, Plasmanta will gain access to the move.

This is the distribution of the new TM moves introduced in the Indigo Disk DLC. The CAP Moderators used our best judgement to distribute these moves from a flavor perspective.

New TM Access in the Indigo DLC

Temper Flare - Colossoil, Hemogoblin, Malaconda, Pajantom, Pyroak, Saharaja, Smokomodo, Venomicon, Voodoom
Currently distributed to Pokemon that look angry or have angry temperament

Supercell Slam - Caribolt, Colossoil, Cyclohm, Plasmanta
Currently distributed to heavy Electric-type Pokemon, or select heavy non-Electric-type Pokemon

Hard Press - Arghonaut, Cawmodore, Equilibra, Naviathan
Currently distributed to heavy Steel-type Pokemon, or select heavy non-Steel-type Pokemon

Dragon Cheer - Astrolotl, Aurumoth, Cyclohm, Miasmaw, Malaconda, Pajantom, Pyroak, Smokomodo
Currently distributed to almost all Dragon-types and other Pokemon with Dragon-type flavor

Alluring Voice - Astrolotl, Chromera, Snaelstrom
Currently distributed to cute and/or sound-based Pokemon

Psychic Noise - Aurumoth, Chromera, Kerfluffle, Necturna, Pajantom
Currently distributed to "Hypnosis-based" and/or sound-based Pokemon. For reference, "Hypnosis-based" refers to many Psychic- and Ghost-type Pokemon.

Upper Hand - Cawmodore, Fidgit, Kerfluffle, Revenankh
Currently distributed to Pokemon with hands (the move explicitly mentions striking with the heel of a palm).

Heal Bell distribution has not increased since the Teal Mask DLC, as the Blissey Line and Chimecho are the only Pokemon to learn this move. As such, no CAPs will regain access to Heal Bell.

Additionally, we wanted to review the distribution of Scald, given the distribution of the move to Pokemon returning in the Indigo Disk DLC. It now makes sense to enforce the following:

• Chromera should regain access to Scald in Generation 9 because Raikou, introduced in the Indigo Disk DLC, maintains its access to Scald in Generation 9, which was not expected to be the case based on redistribution of Scald in the Teal Mask.
• Mollux should get access to Scald in Generation 9 instead of Hydro Pump, which was given in Generation 9 Updates Thread. This change would maintain Mollux's newfound access to a Water-type move while improving Mollux's movepool from a flavor perspective, as Scald has now been distributed to two Fire-types (Emboar and Coalossal) as their sole Water-type moves.

This thread will be open for one week to discuss the (re)distribution of the moves to the CAP roster in both the Teal Mask DLC (DLC 1) and the Indigo Disk DLC (DLC 2). For reference, the moves that were returned in the Teal Mask DLC can be found in this thread. The CAP Moderators have spent a good amount of time reviewing how these moves have been distributed from a flavor perspective as well as competitive impacts of these moves. While we do not expect the list to be perfect, we do not expect these lists to change drastically. If you don't see a move in the above lists, it might be because the Pokemon already gets it in Generation 9. Please account for this before posting.

Any proposed change to the lists must be backed by a clear, substantiated argument. Do not post one liners.

Regarding Necturna and Sketch: There will be a PRC Thread that specifically address its access to Sketch. To be absolutely clear: this is NOT the place to discuss Necturna's access to Sketch. Posts that mention this in this thread will be moderated. Bring any thoughts regarding that to the PRC Thread.

 

[Samirsin]

Regarding move learning for flavor, let's dive into something I personally care, which is adding Fickle Beam to Cyclohm. It's a move that resonates deeply with the essence of this three-headed dragon, and here's why it matters.

Fickle Beam embodies the synergy between move and Pokémon. Picture this: Cyclohm unleashing beams of light from all three heads, potentially doubling its power. I mean, come on, it's the perfect move for it.

Now, skeptics might question the necessity of adding Fickle Beam solely for competitive play. But consider this: Pokémon battles are not just about tactics; they are about storytelling and connection. By integrating moves like Fickle Beam, we're enriching the depth of the Pokémon world and preserving its essence, which is why many people play CAP, to discover and enjoy new Pokémon and their identity.

Furthermore, the precedent of signature moves becoming accessible through egg moves supports the inclusion of Fickle Beam for Cyclohm. Moves like Sparkling Aria in Lapras, and an example from this gen is Tidy Up passed as an egg move to Sentret and Mincinno, which has showed that these moves can be shared down. (Hydrapple and Cyclohm share the same egg group!)

While Fickle Beam may not top the charts in terms of power, its symbolic significance and thematic resonance with Cyclohm make it a meaningful addition. Let's not just focus on the competitive scene. Adding moves purely for flavor reasons is not as bad as many may think about, it is about preserving tradition and embracing the meaning of Pokémon.

 

[Lectrys]

Regarding move learning for flavor, let's dive into something I personally care, which is adding Fickle Beam to Cyclohm. It's a move that resonates deeply with the essence of this three-headed dragon, and here's why it matters.

Fickle Beam embodies the synergy between move and Pokémon. Picture this: Cyclohm unleashing beams of light from all three heads, potentially doubling its power. I mean, come on, it's the perfect move for it.

Now, skeptics might question the necessity of adding Fickle Beam solely for competitive play. But consider this: Pokémon battles are not just about tactics; they are about storytelling and connection. By integrating moves like Fickle Beam, we're enriching the depth of the Pokémon world and preserving its essence, which is why many people play CAP, to discover and enjoy new Pokémon and their identity.

Furthermore, the precedent of signature moves becoming accessible through egg moves supports the inclusion of Fickle Beam for Cyclohm. Moves like Sparkling Aria in Lapras, and an example from this gen is Tidy Up passed as an egg move to Sentret and Mincinno, which has showed that these moves can be shared down. (Hydrapple and Cyclohm share the same egg group!)

While Fickle Beam may not top the charts in terms of power, its symbolic significance and thematic resonance with Cyclohm make it a meaningful addition. Let's not just focus on the competitive scene. Adding moves purely for flavor reasons is not as bad as many may think about, it is about preserving tradition and embracing the meaning of Pokémon.

As a counterpoint to this, Zweilous has two arguing heads and does not learn Fickle Beam. Sure, it's only got 65 base Special Attack and that's lower than its base Attack, but that's still enough to shoot beams if it wants. Maybe Fickle Beam clashes with Hydreigon's flavour that exactly one of its heads won and that's why the line doesn't learn it. But still, not all dragons with disagreeing heads learn Fickle Beam.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Give Arghonaut or Voodoom Upper Hand. I want to have Rock-Paper-Scissors CAP Tournaments.

 

[shnowshner]

there was discussion started by dex in capcord over how scald might be giving mollux too much of an upgrade over hydro pump, especially considering that mollux has established itself as a fairly good option in the format.

now real quick i want to explain why scald is a better option over hydro. generally you're using hydro as a strong STAB move to help break through the opponent. right now, mollux isn't as concerned with high initial power, and favors moves that have high accuracy, or spread status, letting it still pose a problem for the opponent even if they have solid switch-ins. scald fits quite well into this list given the 30% burn chance, and as a coverage move it's useful to dissuade pokemon that are normally comfortable into lava plume + sludge bomb, notably heatran and iron moth. you're also doing non-zero damage vs physically defensive gliscor and generally have a stronger button into the ground-, rock-, and fire-types that may need switched in against mollux during a match. scald also has 3x as much pp to work with over hydro, along with perfect base accuracy, both traits which are fantastic given mollux isn't trying to win the game on the spot, but rather wear down the opponent in due time.

running fire + water coverage is also a fairly potent combination against a good portion of the metagame, moreso when both run moves have a respectable chance to burn the opponent. you are losing damage on common sludge bomb targets, big one being hemogoblin which mollux is often tasked with answering, but the benefit of significantly altering your match-ups helps in getting an edge over the opponent. steels and poisons which want to help pivot around mollux are suddenly much less useful when sludge bomb doesn't provide a free switch. i should also mention that doubling up on burn moves helps in routing a solid gameplan: sometimes you may need to click sludge even if a switch is obvious, and poison, while useful, may not be as exploitable for teammates as burn is. essentially you can pair mollux with a pokemon that appreciates the opposing team being burned (namely setup users), and worry less about inadvertently inflicting a less optimal status vs the opponent while mollux is doing its job. the downsides of water/fire is a worse matchup vs most opposing dragons and waters, though spreading burns against them is still progress, and many waters would rather not face down a mollux regardless of its ability to threaten heavy damage in return.

now, given that the purpose of this thread is somewhere between "updating the flavor aspects of CAPs to more closely align with current pokemon post-dlc," and "giving less powerful CAPs new tools without explicitly buffing them," granting the b+ rank mollux a genuinely competitive option feels like overstepping the boundary by a fair margin. this isn't an argument about whether a stronger mollux is good or bad for the meta, but rather an optics issue where we don't have any need to make an already solid CAP more powerful, moreso when the boost it's getting is debatably more than what others are receiving. personally i think scald would be a nice fit onto mollux, but would rather avoid opening the floodgates for multiple CAP buffs in a single session if that's not the intended goal of this thread.

 

[Swinz]

Astrolotl should get temper flare as a STAB option that has some utility and dragon cheer because it fits themeatically. Astrolotl should also get breaking swipes for the same reason as temper flare and both double edge and throat chop because it needs a buff dragon cheer also should be just like game freak we should give every dragon type dragon cheer so it all fits. cresceidon should get scorching sands because it fits thematically and because it would be a cool tech/support option for its kit, helping fish for burns and making it even more tanky (it should also get scald for the exact same reasons but both would be really cool to see imo). Mollux should get sludge wave and petal blizzard, sludge wave as a good STAB poison move to help it out offensively and petal blizzard to help with its coverage against ground types. maloconda should get electro web and pain split and throat chop because electro web would be a great support move that helps it with its lower speed, pain split to heal it and keep it healthy which fits its stall theme in its harvest ability, and throat chop because it's a good STAB dark move with utility. Plasmanta and Cyclohm should get electro shot because it fits thematically and because rain could be a really cool archetype to use this gen, especially with the new paradox pokemon which could lead to cap 35 being weather themed.

Edit no 1 (not rlly though):
Kerfuffle idea revamp:
Kerfuffle should get alluring voice because it's a utility fairy type STAB move that many fairy types like kerfuffle are getting from game freak. Kerfuffle should also get psych up because it makes thematic sense compared to how game freak has distributed the move.

Cresceidon getting scorching sands is healthy because it both feels like something game freak would do, and because its 20 base power weaker than earth power. I also believe scald is healthy as it leans in a more defensive direction for cresceidon I believe is healthier for the meta.

Fidgit is ranked as the worst CAP mon and therefore should be buffed. I believe that psych up will help find fidgit a niche that fits its base stats. Many fast defensive pokemon tend to have their own little niche so that's why I think it fits so well. I also think that Fidgit could get metal sound, whirlpool, and pain split which the former 2 moves give it even more niche options while the ladder gives it some reliable healing. Fidget should also get sludge Wave because it's a good STAB move that fidgit needs and fidgit should get muddy water for coverage and because its ground typing makes it fit thematically, especially with its poison typing making water murky. This also brings up scorching sands as another great STAB move that any bulky mon might want letting Fidgit fish for burns. Finally Fidgit should recieve both the brand new sound moves alluring voice and psychic noise because it's another niche thing and because both moves were pretty widely distributed. These moves all hopefully give Fidgit a much needed buff.

Crucibelle should get sludge wave for the same reason as Fidgit, it's a good STAB move that makes sense just because crucibelle a poison type. The exact same excuse is going to be used for meteor beam as crucibelle is part rock type. Crucibelle should also get curse, double edge, and pain split to help it with both coverage and longevity as well as utility. Crucibelle has a fairly shallow move pool (think iron leaves) so filling it out makes sense.

Cawmodore should definitely be in the top tier and is way to powerful for my 1000 elo self, so buffing it is definitely off the table. That was obviously a joke and it is struggling despite it's great typing. The most obvious moves to give it are metal sound and feather dance because of its typing, but for a buff I think it could get hard press, supercell slam and double edge. All these moves make sense on cawmodore because of how game freak distributed these moves, and because they supply cawmodore with some extra coverage which never hurts.

Stratagem should get meteor beam if it doesn't already because of its typing and stat spread. For some coverage I think that stratagem should get psychic noise, sludge wave, future sight, and expanding force. To me sludge wave just feels right on stratagem, I dont know how else to explain it other than maybe it sort of looks like it relates to glimora. All the psychic type moves feel like they fit because stratagem kinda looks like baltoy and claydol and lunatone and solrock. I also think it should get psychic for this reason but we arent really discussing that here.