Announcement Gen 9 SV National Dex UU Metagame Discussion

[Lupla]

Kartana has been banned from National Dex UU! (sad for me tbh but i'll take it copium)

1. What are your thoughts on the ban?
2. What Pokemon are you expecting to receive more usage with it gone?
3. What else is in need of a suspect test or maybe even a quickban?

Personally kinda sad about it but i do get why people don't want a mon that could potentially be too chaotic. Things will prob remain sort of the same with a few small differences like speed control or the viability of a few mons like Magnezone , expecting to see more raise in Wellspring from now on.

Now if you excuse me i'll pray for a Gyarados Quickban and Iron Moth Suspect Test.

 

[Danbear02]

Iron Moth
​

This thing is a serious problem, and in my opinion action should be taken on this before other things such as Light Clay. In fact, I'm not even sure we need to suspect Moth, as its presence in the tier is incredibly centralizing due to its lack of reliable checks or counters, which leads to either niche (and frankly bad) options like Zen Headbutt Cinderace, or temporary checks like Mega Tyranitar or Slowking-Galar that can either be overwhelmed easily or taken advantage of by Pursuit. Frankly I believe there are no true Iron Moth counters in the tier.

First I want to discuss a few things that make Iron Moth so good. It's Fire/Poison typing gives it a decent defensive profile, being able to switch in on faster offensive threats like Cinderace and Choice-locked Meowscarada and Enamorous. It also gives it a very important Toxic immunity, which can make it hard to wear down. It also has incredible stabs, with Fire naturally dealing with the Steels trying to switch into Sludge Wave. Its movepool is expansive, getting great coverage in Energy Ball, Dazzling Gleam, Psychic, and utility moves in Toxic Spikes, Morning Sun, and even U-turn. It can perform multiple roles on a team, from a Pivot/Breaker with Morning Sun and Uturn, to a Hazard mon with Toxic Spikes. It can run Specs or even Scarf if it wants. However, the main issue with Moth is that it is way, way too strong, on HO, Offense, Balance or even Fat.

Here are some sets

Sets

Booster Agility

Iron Moth @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Energy Ball
- Agility

Boots

Iron Moth @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- U-turn
- Morning Sun

Agility Moth is faster than the entire metagame after an Agility, even Sand Rush Excadrill, and OHKOs a majority of the meta with Booster boosted attacks. Modest Moth isn't even that slow, hitting 319 which is faster than almost all defensive mons The combination of Fire+Grass coverage with strong neutral stab in Poison makes it so there are no viable mons that resist all 3 attacks, other than the opposing Iron Moth. Some Moths have even started slotting Psychic, mostly on Agility sets, to OHKO other Moths with Booster.

However, the main reason Moth is so difficult to deal with is because of Fiery Dance. Most Iron Moth checks, such as Tyranitar or Slowking-Galar, cannot take a Booster Fiery Dance into another Booster +1 move from Moth. In the case of Glowking, Future Sight or Psyshock do not OHKO without Special Attack investment, which makes it even harder for Glowking to take the hits from Moth. Both of these checks, which are generally more splashable than other mons like Chansey, are easy to wear down or can be abused by Pursuit. This means that often, a late game Moth can easily Agility once, and then sweep while also Boosting with Fiery Dance.

However, even without Agility, Iron Moth is very difficult to KO. Boots sets rely on U-turn and Morning Sun to dance around the opposing team, being able to come in as previously mentioned on Choice-locked Meowscarada or Enamorous, or on Cinderace. U-Turn allows it to escape Tyranitar's Pursuit and can help it pivot into Tyranitar itself to Pursuit trap Glowking or Chansey. Morning Sun sets also take advantage of the typical checks to Booster Moth, as Seismic Toss Chansey finds it much harder to beat a recovering Moth, and this allows it to wear down its checks over the course of the game much better. And of course, Fiery Dance here makes it difficult to beat Moth in the short term as well, as it can boost in front of weaker checks.

Moth isn't without its flaws. It's poor Physical bulk means that it dies to a lot of the priority in the tier. As mentioned before, it has a few offensive checks, a few that I didn't mention before, like Ceruledge and Arcanine-Hisui, as well as offensive mons that are so bulky that they don't just get OHKO'd, like Okidogi and Iron Hands. It also has a few, niche defensive checks, such as Dragalge, Alolan-Muk, or Hisuian Goodra. Its 4x weakness to Ground also means it has to be careful around Enamorus and other mons potentially packing ground coverage. However, its strengths far outshine its flaws, and with Screens support, Iron Moth is easily one of the most threatening sweepers in the tier.

Please, I don't think we need to suspect this mon. Just ban it.

 

[TBIC106]

Ah screw it, haven't posted in a while, time for some general thoughts.

So long suckers

*Ahem*

Anyway, let's talk about something actually relevant.

Oh boy this fuck. Moth has had a history in UU, I think I was calling it the most terrifying mon in the meta... back in February (I did a lot of scrolling to find that). Now, back then I was wrong. There was far too much stuff in the meta that checked it, plus there were a hell of a lot of more immediate threats that needed yeeting. But now we've finally gotten around to the point where we have no bigger fish to fry, and it's time to actually have a conversation about this one.

Anyone who's seen my teams recently knows I've been spamming a very particular core. + + gives a blanket check to most of the meta, knock off to support hazard stack to break down bulky teams, pursuit to enable threats like Enamorus and Iron Moth against Glowking, Chansey and other sp.def walls and so much slow pivoting that they can enable basically any other threat. The other beautiful thing about this core is that there are two reasons Glowking is here. First is because it can toxic absorb and slow pivot in front of Mola, and the second is to beat Iron moth + Serperior. Until it doesn't. Leaving aside glare spam Serperior for a moment, Iron Moth has the unique distinction of having... pretty much one counter in the entire meta, and that's assault vest Glowking. Boots is a generally better set I find, but that set wants to run psychic stab Future Sight, which just isn't immediate enough. This has genuinely led me to run dual psychic stabs with Psyshock on some of my Glowkings, dropping Flamethrower and Slack Off as alternates, solely to better counter Moth while not losing out on the vital Future Sight support it offers. But while this set does win 1v1 from full, it's vulnerable to Pursuit trapping, and Fiery Dance boost into crit kills it immediately. Granted this is enough for me to call it a counter, but when that counter has to play around eternal 50/50s in front of some of the best mons in the meta, namely Pursuit TTar and Bisharp, it's very hard to keep it alive the entire game to counter a late Moth sweep. And that's assuming it doesn't just get removed by Serperior bullshitting it. Hate that mon.

As for other counters, there are very few. Scarf Shocks has seen a rise recently, I've used it a lot, but the thing that became good for just got banned. Without Gyarados existing to keep it viable, Shocks just tanked hard, so that's one offensive check down. Banded Azumarill kills with aqua jet, which has actually become easier to slot with Gyara's ban, but still isn't easy to fit on teams. Earth Power MVenu is helpful, but Fiery Dance into boost into Sludge Wave just kills, so you need to sack off a mon before bringing it in or risk a hard predict/boost. Sp.def TTar takes a couple, but good luck hitting your Stone Edge, plus it's very vulnerable to u-turn chip on Morning Sun Moth sets. At least you can pursuit it if you get in safely, though. Harcanine works, but is rocks weak so can be very easily chipped into range of +1 eball, plus extreme speed only kills from 55. All of these are checks, not counters, since there's always a way for moth to play around them.

That said, that's a hell of a lot of checks that it can't just break through on its own, plus it's a very loaded cast of good mons. At least a couple of these are A rank mons, the rest are B, and the infamous Mega Tyranitar reigning over the meta in S tier. This is why I believe Iron Moth deserves a suspect rather than Quick Ban, though I can agree with it going before light clay. Counterplay exists, unlike with many of the bans we've had to make along the way.

Hey would you look at that I'mma rant about the fish agai-.

Gets sniped by fingers hurting from too much typing

Okay I've made my rant before, see my last post on page 5 if you want to read that. Having now played with this mon a lot, none of my complaints have gone away, this thing is so stupidly busted. Flip turn + wish support enables entire teams, it's slower than 90% of everything for slow pivoting, tanks hits from the aforementioned 90% of everything to do so, and has 3 abusers in Wellspring, Volcanion and Gastrodon. All of which just get toxiced, Wellspring is kinda likely to rise next shift, Gastrodon is very passive and Volcanion is otherwise hard to slot and easier to switch into than you'd like for a breaker. Please can we suspect this thing at least?

Well then. I've never participated in a light clay suspect before, and even though I voted suspect on the slate the only reason I did so was because it kinda boxed out standard HO as a style by just being better. Personally, I don't think the item itself is that busted, it's always been the abusers. Having to rely on Grimmsnarl either being fully passive or unable to Taunt to block hazards is a major flaw in the style, plus a lot of its best abusers are hazards weak, making the issues with playing this style very pronounced when the best mon in the meta is a dark type that likes to click Knock Off and Stealth Rocks. That's not to say it can't work around that, Iron Hands is a menace on HO that perfectly counters all of this, but still. There are enough issues here that I don't think Light Clay needs banning

Speaking of, the Man Himself. Yes he deserves the capitalisation. Hands is ridiculous on screens, and while that's easily his home ground and strongest playing field that doesn't mean he can't be just as destructive elsewhere. SD + Thunder Punch + Drain Punch hits basically everything, and then you get to pick your poison on whether you want to beat Skeledirge with EQ or use Ice Punch to nuke through Hippowdon more easily (pro tip, ice punch + punching glove good). Sub also works in that last slot, so good luck toxicing it to deal with it on bulky teams. This mon alone often takes at least a couple others down with it, if not outright sweeping entire teams. Only limiting factor is speed, but it beats enough defensive mons that it's very easy to just heal through the damage regardless.

Alright, TBIC out, have a good day everyone!

 

[Lupla]

Since it seems no one else is gonna be doing this (which is fair tbh), we've gotten results for shifts!

National Dex OU (1630 stats)

Combined usage for National Dex OU (1630 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1    | Gholdengo          | 23.194% |
| 2    | Baxcalibur         | 15.833% |
| 3    | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon | 15.240% |
| 4    | Landorus-Therian   | 15.157% |
| 5    | Dragonite          | 12.812% |
| 6    | Great Tusk         | 12.721% |
| 7    | Scizor-Mega        | 12.617% |
| 8    | Tapu Lele          | 12.188% |
| 9    | Zapdos             | 11.928% |
| 10   | Iron Valiant       | 11.625% |
| 11   | Tapu Koko          | 11.119% |
| 12   | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike | 10.847% |
| 13   | Sneasler           | 10.084% |
| 14   | Heatran            |  9.848% |
| 15   | Gliscor            |  9.244% |
| 16   | Moltres            |  9.178% |
| 17   | Ninetales-Alola    |  8.754% |
| 18   | Rillaboom          |  8.649% |
| 19   | Garchomp           |  8.510% |
| 20   | Glimmora           |  8.385% |
| 21   | Ferrothorn         |  8.097% |
| 22   | Lopunny-Mega       |  7.687% |
| 23   | Volcarona          |  7.650% |
| 24   | Samurott-Hisui     |  7.570% |
| 25   | Greninja           |  7.170% |
| 26   | Alomomola          |  7.103% |
| 27   | Toxapex            |  6.998% |
| 28   | Diancie-Mega       |  6.871% |
| 29   | Garganacl          |  6.787% |
| 30   | Charizard-Mega-Y   |  6.581% |
| 31   | Kommo-o            |  6.489% |
| 32   | Hatterene          |  6.439% |
| 33   | Clodsire           |  6.283% |
| 34   | Corviknight        |  6.037% |
| 35   | Banette-Mega       |  5.905% |
| 36   | Ogerpon-Wellspring |  5.837% |
| 37   | Pelipper           |  5.722% |
| 38   | Hoopa-Unbound      |  4.878% |
| 39   | Rotom-Wash         |  4.814% |
| 40   | Gyarados-Mega      |  4.750% |
| 41   | Ting-Lu            |  4.741% |
| 42   | Swampert-Mega      |  4.602% |
| 43   | Zamazenta          |  4.480% |
| 44   | Ceruledge          |  4.450% |
| 45   | Kartana            |  4.114% |
| 46   | Dondozo            |  4.088% |
| 47   | Iron Treads        |  3.927% |
| 48   | Iron Moth          |  3.863% |
| 49   | Tornadus-Therian   |  3.713% |
| 50   | Slowking-Galar     |  3.697% |
| 51   | Sinistcha          |  3.653% |
| 52   | Serperior          |  3.395% |
| 53   | Tapu Fini          |  3.319% |
| 54   | Mawile-Mega        |  3.207% |
| 55   | Blaziken           |  3.206% |
| 56   | Charizard-Mega-X   |  3.187% |
| 57   | Excadrill          |  2.873% |
| 58   | Ribombee           |  2.833% |
| 59   | Tyranitar          |  2.814% |
| 60   | Victini            |  2.774% |
| 61   | Ursaluna           |  2.741% |
| 62   | Bisharp            |  2.736% |
| 63   | Clefable           |  2.675% |
| 64   | Celesteela         |  2.581% |
| 65   | Cresselia          |  2.572% |
| 66   | Kyurem             |  2.521% |
| 67   | Grimmsnarl         |  2.491% |
| 68   | Blissey            |  2.486% |
| 69   | Barraskewda        |  2.467% |
| 70   | Skeledirge         |  2.405% |
| 71   | Torkoal            |  2.400% |
| 72   | Cinderace          |  2.338% |
| 73   | Ogerpon-Cornerstone |  2.301% |
| 74   | Tyranitar-Mega     |  2.290% |
| 75   | Medicham-Mega      |  2.275% |
| 76   | Chansey            |  2.250% |
| 77   | Weavile            |  2.092% |
| 78   | Slowbro            |  2.088% |
| 79   | Pinsir-Mega        |  2.026% |
| 80   | Aegislash          |  1.956% |
| 81   | Blacephalon        |  1.883% |
| 82   | Hydreigon          |  1.828% |
| 83   | Skarmory           |  1.757% |
| 84   | Manaphy            |  1.743% |
| 85   | Jirachi            |  1.725% |
| 86   | Venusaur-Mega      |  1.695% |
| 87   | Sableye-Mega       |  1.584% |
| 88   | Venusaur           |  1.503% |
| 89   | Marowak-Alola      |  1.488% |
| 90   | Ditto              |  1.442% |
| 91   | Ogerpon            |  1.313% |
| 92   | Stakataka          |  1.207% |
| 93   | Shuckle            |  1.172% |
| 94   | Iron Hands         |  1.158% |
| 95   | Kingdra            |  1.145% |
| 96   | Magnezone          |  1.121% |
| 97   | Latias-Mega        |  1.111% |
| 98   | Goodra-Hisui       |  1.109% |
| 99   | Thundurus-Therian  |  1.083% |
| 100  | Empoleon           |  1.075% |
| 101  | Hawlucha           |  1.060% |
| 102  | Gardevoir-Mega     |  1.059% |
| 103  | Mew                |  1.045% |
| 104  | Porygon2           |  1.040% |
| 105  | Beedrill-Mega      |  1.013% |
| 106  | Hippowdon          |  1.006% |
| 107  | Pawmot             |  1.004% |
| 108  | Meowscarada        |  0.986% |
| 109  | Aerodactyl-Mega    |  0.983% |
| 110  | Azumarill          |  0.981% |
| 111  | Nidoking           |  0.974% |
| 112  | Xurkitree          |  0.968% |
| 113  | Scizor             |  0.946% |
| 114  | Kleavor            |  0.929% |
| 115  | Araquanid          |  0.913% |
| 116  | Ogerpon-Hearthflame |  0.904% |
| 117  | Crawdaunt          |  0.903% |
| 118  | Buzzwole           |  0.854% |
| 119  | Arcanine-Hisui     |  0.853% |
| 120  | Mimikyu            |  0.852% |
| 121  | Zeraora            |  0.824% |
| 122  | Keldeo             |  0.824% |
| 123  | Zoroark-Hisui      |  0.777% |
| 124  | Gengar             |  0.756% |
| 125  | Breloom            |  0.756% |
| 126  | Alakazam           |  0.734% |
| 127  | Latios-Mega        |  0.731% |
| 128  | Latias             |  0.726% |
| 129  | Volcanion          |  0.711% |
| 130  | Gyarados           |  0.691% |
| 131  | Salamence          |  0.690% |
| 132  | Pidgeot-Mega       |  0.682% |
| 133  | Galvantula         |  0.679% |
| 134  | Muk-Alola          |  0.665% |
| 135  | Maushold           |  0.638% |
| 136  | Dracozolt          |  0.628% |
| 137  | Porygon-Z          |  0.628% |
| 138  | Polteageist        |  0.627% |
| 139  | Nihilego           |  0.623% |
| 140  | Zapdos-Galar       |  0.622% |
| 141  | Togekiss           |  0.611% |
| 142  | Moltres-Galar      |  0.609% |
| 143  | Garchomp-Mega      |  0.576% |
| 144  | Haxorus            |  0.569% |
| 145  | Tangrowth          |  0.564% |
| 146  | Slowking           |  0.563% |
| 147  | Raichu-Alola       |  0.562% |
| 148  | Goodra             |  0.558% |
| 149  | Munkidori          |  0.556% |
| 150  | Sandy Shocks       |  0.552% |
| 151  | Umbreon            |  0.547% |
| 152  | Suicune            |  0.536% |
| 153  | Primarina          |  0.534% |
| 154  | Thundurus          |  0.527% |
| 155  | Lilligant-Hisui    |  0.504% |
| 156  | Arcanine           |  0.502% |
| 157  | Enamorus           |  0.497% |
| 158  | Basculegion        |  0.490% |
| 159  | Quaquaval          |  0.489% |
| 160  | Altaria-Mega       |  0.485% |
| 161  | Torterra           |  0.481% |
| 162  | Mandibuzz          |  0.479% |
| 163  | Cloyster           |  0.467% |
| 164  | Aggron-Mega        |  0.464% |
| 165  | Manectric-Mega     |  0.456% |
| 166  | Amoonguss          |  0.453% |
| 167  | Okidogi            |  0.445% |
| 168  | Armarouge          |  0.442% |
| 169  | Gastrodon          |  0.439% |
| 170  | Tapu Bulu          |  0.427% |
| 171  | Espeon             |  0.420% |
| 172  | Lokix              |  0.388% |
| 173  | Swampert           |  0.385% |
| 174  | Latios             |  0.382% |
| 175  | Heracross-Mega     |  0.380% |
| 176  | Infernape          |  0.378% |
| 177  | Entei              |  0.375% |
| 178  | Arctozolt          |  0.371% |
| 179  | Gardevoir          |  0.367% |
| 180  | Gallade-Mega       |  0.361% |
| 181  | Reuniclus          |  0.357% |
| 182  | Klefki             |  0.356% |
| 183  | Chandelure         |  0.355% |
| 184  | Iron Leaves        |  0.340% |
| 185  | Snorlax            |  0.338% |
| 186  | Sharpedo-Mega      |  0.334% |
| 187  | Weezing-Galar      |  0.334% |
| 188  | Sceptile-Mega      |  0.333% |
| 189  | Absol-Mega         |  0.329% |
| 190  | Basculegion-F      |  0.313% |
| 191  | Incineroar         |  0.312% |
| 192  | Typhlosion         |  0.302% |
| 193  | Darmanitan         |  0.300% |
| 194  | Pikachu            |  0.297% |
| 195  | Metagross          |  0.295% |
| 196  | Whimsicott         |  0.282% |
| 197  | Staraptor          |  0.280% |
| 198  | Indeedee           |  0.278% |
| 199  | Houndoom-Mega      |  0.270% |
| 200  | Iron Jugulis       |  0.268% |
| 201  | Floatzel           |  0.265% |
| 202  | Camerupt-Mega      |  0.263% |
| 203  | Milotic            |  0.261% |
| 204  | Audino-Mega        |  0.258% |
| 205  | Noivern            |  0.258% |
| 206  | Swellow            |  0.257% |
| 207  | Comfey             |  0.250% |
| 208  | Rotom-Heat         |  0.248% |
| 209  | Fezandipiti        |  0.245% |
| 210  | Mamoswine          |  0.243% |
| 211  | Feraligatr         |  0.239% |
| 212  | Slowbro-Mega       |  0.239% |
| 213  | Lucario            |  0.231% |
| 214  | Scream Tail        |  0.228% |
| 215  | Shiftry            |  0.227% |
| 216  | Mantine            |  0.224% |
| 217  | Blastoise          |  0.222% |
| 218  | Typhlosion-Hisui   |  0.216% |
| 219  | Cofagrigus         |  0.215% |
| 220  | Slowbro-Galar      |  0.214% |
| 221  | Jolteon            |  0.210% |
| 222  | Starmie            |  0.204% |
| 223  | Forretress         |  0.199% |
| 224  | Cyclizar           |  0.193% |
| 225  | Ludicolo           |  0.191% |
| 226  | Aggron             |  0.190% |
| 227  | Necrozma           |  0.190% |
| 228  | Brute Bonnet       |  0.189% |
| 229  | Quagsire           |  0.187% |
| 230  | Ninetales          |  0.187% |
| 231  | Politoed           |  0.186% |
| 232  | Avalugg            |  0.185% |
| 233  | Yanmega            |  0.182% |
| 234  | Diggersby          |  0.180% |
| 235  | Gigalith           |  0.179% |
| 236  | Machamp            |  0.179% |
| 237  | Ampharos-Mega      |  0.173% |
| 238  | Heliolisk          |  0.172% |
| 239  | Chesnaught         |  0.169% |
| 240  | Deoxys-Defense     |  0.168% |
| 241  | Regidrago          |  0.168% |
| 242  | Smeargle           |  0.168% |
| 243  | Conkeldurr         |  0.163% |
| 244  | Slurpuff           |  0.161% |
| 245  | Golisopod          |  0.160% |
| 246  | Slither Wing       |  0.159% |
| 247  | Diancie            |  0.158% |
| 248  | Gallade            |  0.158% |
| 249  | Vikavolt           |  0.157% |
| 250  | Inteleon           |  0.156% |
| 251  | Raikou             |  0.154% |
| 252  | Braviary-Hisui     |  0.147% |
| 253  | Sylveon            |  0.147% |
| 254  | Seismitoad         |  0.146% |
| 255  | Azelf              |  0.145% |
| 256  | Lycanroc           |  0.144% |
| 257  | Roserade           |  0.141% |
| 258  | Tinkaton           |  0.140% |
| 259  | Krookodile         |  0.139% |
| 260  | Abomasnow-Mega     |  0.138% |
| 261  | Steelix-Mega       |  0.134% |
| 262  | Exeggutor-Alola    |  0.129% |
| 263  | Bronzong           |  0.128% |
| 264  | Salazzle           |  0.128% |
| 265  | Bewear             |  0.126% |
| 266  | Pyukumuku          |  0.126% |
| 267  | Druddigon          |  0.124% |
| 268  | Glalie-Mega        |  0.124% |
| 269  | Tentacruel         |  0.122% |
| 270  | Vaporeon           |  0.121% |
| 271  | Terrakion          |  0.120% |
| 272  | Vivillon           |  0.119% |
| 273  | Flygon             |  0.118% |
| 274  | Ambipom            |  0.118% |
| 275  | Overqwil           |  0.117% |
| 276  | Cetitan            |  0.117% |
| 277  | Frosmoth           |  0.116% |
| 278  | Celebi             |  0.115% |
| 279  | Brambleghast       |  0.113% |
| 280  | Minior             |  0.112% |
| 281  | Corsola-Galar      |  0.109% |
| 282  | Arctovish          |  0.108% |
| 283  | Revavroom          |  0.107% |
| 284  | Kilowattrel        |  0.107% |
| 285  | Meloetta           |  0.107% |
| 286  | Tauros-Paldea-Aqua |  0.106% |
| 287  | Dipplin            |  0.105% |
| 288  | Arbok              |  0.104% |
| 289  | Crobat             |  0.104% |
| 290  | Decidueye-Hisui    |  0.103% |
| 291  | Toxtricity         |  0.102% |
| 292  | Tyrantrum          |  0.101% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +

Raises

Alomomola moved from NDUU to NDOU
Banette-Mega moved from NDUU to NDOU
Ogerpon-Wellspring moved from NDUU to NDOU
Swampert-Mega moved from NDUU to NDOU


Drops

Sinistcha moved from NDOU to NDUU

 

[Velcroc]

Welcome back to your scheduled recap of the monthly tiershifts. December 2023 Edition. We've lost 2 valuable defensive resources and 1 pain in the backside. In exchange, we got 2 valuable defensive resources and tolerable Pokemon.

RIP , you were too fire for this tier...

National Dex Usage Stats (1630)

+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Usage %   | Raw    | %       | Real   | %       |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1    | Tapu Lele          | 17.47446% | 113907 |  8.423% | 88313  |  8.628% |
| 2    | Landorus-Therian   | 15.54500% | 130162 |  9.625% | 110606 | 10.806% |
| 3    | Heatran            | 13.52969% | 117123 |  8.661% | 93003  |  9.086% |
| 4    | Gliscor            | 13.04963% | 144451 | 10.682% | 114010 | 11.139% |
| 5    | Alomomola          | 12.62259% | 94034  |  6.953% | 72775  |  7.110% |
| 6    | Zapdos             | 12.52886% | 106631 |  7.885% | 84874  |  8.292% |
| 7    | Sneasler           | 12.50770% | 117349 |  8.677% | 82967  |  8.106% |
| 8    | Scizor-Mega        | 12.39589% | 110677 |  8.184% | 87192  |  8.519% |
| 9    | Ogerpon-Wellspring | 12.13456% | 79544  |  5.882% | 59616  |  5.825% |
| 10   | Iron Valiant       | 12.12433% | 108929 |  8.055% | 72688  |  7.102% |
| 11   | Great Tusk         | 11.44107% | 114226 |  8.447% | 83241  |  8.133% |
| 12   | Ferrothorn         | 11.10110% | 131382 |  9.715% | 109744 | 10.722% |
| 13   | Tapu Koko          | 11.02098% | 107613 |  7.958% | 90830  |  8.874% |
| 14   | Rillaboom          | 10.90691% | 93908  |  6.944% | 72471  |  7.080% |
| 15   | Garchomp           | 10.83243% | 106976 |  7.910% | 84437  |  8.250% |
| 16   | Dragonite          | 10.80034% | 111763 |  8.264% | 78579  |  7.677% |
| 17   | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike | 10.22777% | 98640  |  7.294% | 75178  |  7.345% |
| 18   | Moltres            |  9.13685% | 68844  |  5.091% | 54767  |  5.351% |
| 19   | Corviknight        |  8.80892% | 91565  |  6.771% | 71656  |  7.001% |
| 20   | Garganacl          |  8.67721% | 83277  |  6.158% | 63719  |  6.225% |
| 21   | Banette-Mega       |  7.38093% | 70422  |  5.207% | 52895  |  5.168% |
| 22   | Greninja           |  6.96524% | 98084  |  7.253% | 72235  |  7.057% |
| 23   | Volcarona          |  6.84303% | 98064  |  7.251% | 68131  |  6.656% |
| 24   | Clodsire           |  6.56401% | 66607  |  4.925% | 51007  |  4.983% |
| 25   | Charizard-Mega-Y   |  6.43980% | 82435  |  6.096% | 63625  |  6.216% |
| 26   | Diancie-Mega       |  6.29342% | 55057  |  4.071% | 44324  |  4.331% |
| 27   | Hatterene          |  6.25009% | 70821  |  5.237% | 54182  |  5.294% |
| 28   | Toxapex            |  6.23007% | 79817  |  5.902% | 61052  |  5.965% |
| 29   | Hoopa-Unbound      |  6.16441% | 41450  |  3.065% | 29918  |  2.923% |
| 30   | Lopunny-Mega       |  5.96625% | 79285  |  5.863% | 62903  |  6.146% |
| 31   | Samurott-Hisui     |  5.68693% | 62696  |  4.636% | 51769  |  5.058% |
| 32   | Glimmora           |  5.67731% | 67287  |  4.976% | 59896  |  5.852% |
| 33   | Pelipper           |  5.43946% | 69679  |  5.152% | 63065  |  6.162% |
| 34   | Slowking-Galar     |  5.42093% | 41047  |  3.035% | 33011  |  3.225% |
| 35   | Ursaluna-Bloodmoon |  5.33980% | 36657  |  2.711% | 27707  |  2.707% |
| 36   | Kartana            |  5.12853% | 61638  |  4.558% | 45269  |  4.423% |
| 37   | Kommo-o            |  5.04193% | 67484  |  4.990% | 48363  |  4.725% |
| 38   | Ursaluna           |  4.96020% | 38555  |  2.851% | 29795  |  2.911% |
| 39   | Aegislash          |  4.86133% | 56385  |  4.169% | 42813  |  4.183% |
| 40   | Baxcalibur         |  4.72868% | 42158  |  3.117% | 30030  |  2.934% |
| 41   | Zamazenta          |  4.66122% | 34136  |  2.524% | 24479  |  2.392% |
| 42   | Rotom-Wash         |  4.49378% | 70033  |  5.179% | 57654  |  5.633% |
| 43   | Tornadus-Therian   |  4.43485% | 33831  |  2.502% | 25602  |  2.501% |
| 44   | Dondozo            |  4.35410% | 32287  |  2.387% | 23130  |  2.260% |
| 45   | Ninetales-Alola    |  4.33982% | 63077  |  4.664% | 52511  |  5.130% |
| 46   | Ceruledge          |  4.18929% | 43561  |  3.221% | 32746  |  3.199% |
| 47   | Serperior          |  4.16386% | 56656  |  4.189% | 41695  |  4.074% |
| 48   | Mawile-Mega        |  4.16357% | 42178  |  3.119% | 32085  |  3.135% |
| 49   | Kyurem             |  4.08374% | 27917  |  2.064% | 20889  |  2.041% |
| 50   | Swampert-Mega      |  3.94991% | 51718  |  3.824% | 40436  |  3.951% |
| 51   | Tyranitar          |  3.78356% | 44538  |  3.293% | 35894  |  3.507% |
| 52   | Ting-Lu            |  3.68642% | 30756  |  2.274% | 24957  |  2.438% |
| 53   | Skeledirge         |  3.66599% | 46439  |  3.434% | 35272  |  3.446% |
| 54   | Slowbro            |  3.54572% | 25981  |  1.921% | 20537  |  2.006% |
| 55   | Tyranitar-Mega     |  3.50588% | 31118  |  2.301% | 24945  |  2.437% |
| 56   | Iron Treads        |  3.36336% | 27166  |  2.009% | 21993  |  2.149% |
| 57   | Medicham-Mega      |  3.31612% | 27628  |  2.043% | 22213  |  2.170% |
| 58   | Gyarados-Mega      |  3.28072% | 37106  |  2.744% | 28033  |  2.739% |
| 59   | Clefable           |  3.26767% | 36298  |  2.684% | 26839  |  2.622% |
| 60   | Victini            |  3.25931% | 30534  |  2.258% | 23889  |  2.334% |
| 61   | Chansey            |  3.16564% | 30096  |  2.225% | 22492  |  2.197% |
| 62   | Cresselia          |  3.10698% | 22903  |  1.694% | 16500  |  1.612% |
| 63   | Weavile            |  3.00044% | 41314  |  3.055% | 31069  |  3.035% |
| 64   | Excadrill          |  2.98634% | 40382  |  2.986% | 30506  |  2.980% |
| 65   | Iron Moth          |  2.90977% | 34983  |  2.587% | 25716  |  2.512% |
| 66   | Blissey            |  2.73836% | 27101  |  2.004% | 19804  |  1.935% |
| 67   | Blaziken           |  2.68102% | 46173  |  3.414% | 33993  |  3.321% |
| 68   | Tapu Fini          |  2.58775% | 21331  |  1.577% | 17150  |  1.676% |
| 69   | Charizard-Mega-X   |  2.57156% | 39412  |  2.914% | 28911  |  2.825% |
| 70   | Grimmsnarl         |  2.48525% | 44074  |  3.259% | 38166  |  3.729% |
| 71   | Bisharp            |  2.34720% | 29829  |  2.206% | 22353  |  2.184% |
| 72   | Torkoal            |  2.32205% | 36124  |  2.671% | 32131  |  3.139% |
| 73   | Ribombee           |  2.30893% | 38692  |  2.861% | 33975  |  3.319% |
| 74   | Magnezone          |  2.22678% | 25501  |  1.886% | 20047  |  1.959% |
| 75   | Ogerpon-Cornerstone |  2.21535% | 18029  |  1.333% | 13675  |  1.336% |
| 76   | Cinderace          |  2.16831% | 35807  |  2.648% | 26414  |  2.581% |
| 77   | Jirachi            |  2.16263% | 19851  |  1.468% | 15225  |  1.487% |
| 78   | Hydreigon          |  2.15708% | 32393  |  2.395% | 23968  |  2.342% |
| 79   | Pinsir-Mega        |  2.07354% | 20346  |  1.505% | 14331  |  1.400% |
| 80   | Volcanion          |  1.90792% | 17498  |  1.294% | 13646  |  1.333% |
| 81   | Barraskewda        |  1.88612% | 19605  |  1.450% | 15002  |  1.466% |
| 82   | Skarmory           |  1.82113% | 24079  |  1.781% | 20012  |  1.955% |
| 83   | Iron Hands         |  1.81434% | 18612  |  1.376% | 14062  |  1.374% |
| 84   | Celesteela         |  1.77247% | 21213  |  1.569% | 16739  |  1.635% |
| 85   | Venusaur-Mega      |  1.77194% | 29021  |  2.146% | 22362  |  2.185% |
| 86   | Blacephalon        |  1.76107% | 26364  |  1.950% | 19255  |  1.881% |
| 87   | Sableye-Mega       |  1.68139% | 19807  |  1.465% | 17160  |  1.677% |
| 88   | Sinistcha          |  1.64712% | 21439  |  1.585% | 15889  |  1.552% |
| 89   | Ditto              |  1.63355% | 21915  |  1.621% | 15524  |  1.517% |
| 90   | Marowak-Alola      |  1.61414% | 17030  |  1.259% | 12932  |  1.263% |
| 91   | Thundurus-Therian  |  1.51160% | 19322  |  1.429% | 15003  |  1.466% |
| 92   | Latias-Mega        |  1.46649% | 10629  |  0.786% | 7801   |  0.762% |
| 93   | Porygon2           |  1.45171% | 20208  |  1.494% | 15916  |  1.555% |
| 94   | Venusaur           |  1.44273% | 21652  |  1.601% | 16298  |  1.592% |
| 95   | Nidoking           |  1.43730% | 17829  |  1.318% | 13691  |  1.338% |
| 96   | Xurkitree          |  1.39683% | 28479  |  2.106% | 20662  |  2.019% |
| 97   | Goodra-Hisui       |  1.29330% | 25393  |  1.878% | 19337  |  1.889% |
| 98   | Manaphy            |  1.27141% | 16326  |  1.207% | 11548  |  1.128% |
| 99   | Meowscarada        |  1.23625% | 31845  |  2.355% | 23531  |  2.299% |
| 100  | Mew                |  1.22411% | 18474  |  1.366% | 13837  |  1.352% |

Raises
Aegislash moved from NDUU to NDOU
Slowking-Galar moved from NDUU to NDOU
Ursaluna moved from NDUU to NDOU

Drops

Ninetales-Alola moved from NDOU to NDUU
Rotom-Wash moved from NDOU to NDUU
Swampert-Mega moved from NDOU to NDUU
Ting-Lu moved from NDOU to NDUU


Relevant Image

Spoiler

 

[Iride]

posting in the event anyone decides not to do this :shrug:

The 2nd half of the DLC has officially dropped today, and it's a doozy. I will do my best to sort out the changes to existing Pokemon as relevant, but the full list can be viewed here as a reference:

Moveset Buffs

Notable changes are bolded, New moves are marked with (*)

UU - Rich Get Richer II (Runes Edition)
- Temper Flare*
- Body Slam, Curse, Double Edge, Helping Hand, Sunny Day, Tera Blast, Throat Chop
- Hard Press*
- Double Edge, Hard Press*, Supercell Slam*
- Meteor Beam
- Double Edge, Hard Press*, Supercell Slam*
- Psychic Noise*
- Baton Pass, Chilling Water, Double Edge, Pain Split, Tera Blast, Trailblaze, Vaccum Wave
- Chilling Water, Dragon Cheer*, Flip Turn, Liquidation, Psychic Noise*, Tera Blast, Weather Ball
- Psych Up, Throat Chop, Triple Axel
- Body Slam, Breaking Swipe, Bullet Seed, Double-Edge, Endure, Grassy Glide, Helping Hand, Petal Blizzard, Scale Shot, Tera Blast, Trailblaze
- Alluring Voice*, Scorching Sands, Temper Flare*
- Psychic Noise*
- Double Edge
- Hard Press*
- Double-Edge, Endeavor


Below UU - Has Power Creep Gone Too Far?
- Dragon Cheer*, Endeavor, Supercell Slam*, Temper Flare*
- Agility, Alluring Voice*, Dragon Cheer*, Helping Hand, Psychic Noise*, Stealth Rock, Tera Blast, Vacuum Wave
- Psychic Noise*
- Breaking Swipe, Dragon Cheer*
- Coaching, Double Edge, Throat Chop
- Double Edge, Dragon Cheer*, Meteor Beam, Throat Chop
- Alluring Voice*, Chilling Water, Dragon Cheer*, Draining Kiss, Liquidation, Tera Blast, Weather Ball
- Pain Split
- Coaching, Double-Edge, Supercell Slam*, Throat Chop, Upper Hand*
- Coaching, Endeavor, Psych Up, Triple Axel, Upper Hand*, Whirlpool
- Supercell Slam*, Temper Flare*, Tera Blast
- Supercell Slam*, Scorching Sands
- Hard Press*, Skitter Smack
- Psychic Noise*
- Chilling Water, Hard Press*, Helping Hand, Knock Off, Poison Jab, Smack Down, Tera Blast, Weather Ball
- Pain Split, Psych Up, Skitter Smack, Throat Chop

Continuing off from previously, here's a few starter questions for discussion:
- What are your favourite moveset changes to existing Pokemon as a result of the DLC?
- Are there any specific Pokemon we may expect to see more of / become newly viable with their respective buffs?
- What are your opinions on teamstyles, such as balance, bulky offence, hyper offense, and stall? How are they impacted by these changes?
- Given the upcoming tiering shifts, what Pokemon are you expecting to drop from OU within the next month?
- Will Ting-Lu and Rotom-Wash continue to remain UU?

And that's it, let us know your opinions down below.

 

[StompBox]

- What are your favourite moveset changes to existing Pokemon as a result of the DLC?

Easily the addition of Flip Turn on Latios which now lets it function as a good pivot on many a Bulky offense and Balance teams alike and lends it the ability to escape from a potential pursuit trap from the still dominant Mega-Tyranitar. The other moveset change that I have both immensely enjoyed and feared is the addition of Meowscarada now being able to use Triple-Axel and taking its CB set to a whole new level of threatening.

- Are there any specific Pokemon we may expect to see more of / become newly viable with their respective buffs?

Other than the aforementioned Latios and Meowscarada I don't expect to see many other pokemon to be more common than what they are currently, but there are still some other notable moveset additions such as Knock-Off Swampert/MPert and endeavor Treads allowing it a new option on its lead set especially.

- Given the upcoming tiering shifts, what Pokemon are you expecting to drop from OU within the next month?

While I don't have any specific expectations for what Pokemon are going to drop from OU; what I do wanna see dropping are Moltres, Iron Crown, Archaludon and Hydrapple which would all be quite beneficial to the meta currently and allow for more unique teambuilding options. There are much more mons that I would like to see drop but I really dont know if they are going to in regards to their current usage in OU.

- Will Ting-Lu and Rotom-Wash continue to remain UU?

While I do believe both mons are going remain in UU for the time being, I somewhat expect Ting-Lu to rise back to OU in the not-so-near future as it still is quite a good mon there aswell.

(This is also my first ever post aswell so uhh, Hi!)

 

[TBIC106]

There are plenty of mons that I think have benefited from the new DLC, Latios sets in particular are really eating right now, but I’d like to focus on one specific mon


The fucking cat.

Hey so anyone remember this fuck? Because this is just Weavile 2.0 now that it gets Triple Axel, except kinda a side grade? Let’s isolate these differences.

For one, Meowscarada doesn’t get Swords Dance, which thank Arceus it doesn’t otherwise I would’ve been asking for a quickban before NDFL playoffs could start. But it does run choice band, which is the problematic set. Boasting what’s already the third or fourth highest speed stat in the metagame, behind MAero, Zeraora and Ribombee (Depends whether you count the bee or not), it’s incredibly difficult to just offensively check this thing. But until now that was relatively fine, since it had no real way of beating the flying/steels in Skarmory and Celesteela. Sure it would knock them and be annoying, but it was better off running scarf and being one of the best speed controls in the tier.

Now, however, it can take advantage of how Skarmory is forced in to get a knock on it, then this absolutely ludicrous calc exists

252 Atk Choice Band Protean Meowscarada Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 153-180 (45.9 - 54%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah this thing has exactly 1 switch in in the entire tier, as far as I can tell, and that’s Scizor. You can mindgame it, run Slowbro and Skarmory next to each other to force it to choose which it nukes, but that’s not reliable counterplay.

To quickly go back to the Weavile comparison, the main differences are just a slightly lower speed stat, no SD and no pursuit traded off for a lack of rocks weakness, u-turn and a way through bulky waters. Yeah this thing is dumb.

 

[Smashburn]

 

[awyp]

So when are we banning ceruledge. :)

Ceruledge is much more broken then Iron Moth and to be honest should’ve been the thing suspected instead of moth, if it has SD and 3 coverages nothing can safely switch in except unaware mons

edit: kinda wack y’all deleted the post wtf

 

[awyp]

Meowscarada should be either voted on by the council or suspect tested but in my honest opinion it's the best mon in the tier.

 

[Niadev]

Tier shifts! It's a doozie this time.

Rises

• Iron Treads moved from NDUU to NDOU
• Serperior moved from NDUU to NDOU
• Swampert-Mega moved from NDUU to NDOU
• Torkoal moved from NDRU to NDOU

Drops

• Aegislash moved from NDOU to NDUU
• Hydrapple moved from NDOU to NDUU
• Kartana moved from NDOU to NDUUBL
• Kommo-o moved from NDOU to NDUUBL
• Toxapex moved from NDOU to NDUU

A former S rank is back and, in tradition of OU staples dropping to lower tiers this gen, Toxapex is now here.

We will also be voting on Kommo-o as it was banned for a Tera set, and Terastal has since been banned. We will also be voting on some other Pokemon. Stay tuned!

 

[R1C3M4N]

So a lot of the posts on this page of the thread are complaining about meow, ace, moth, etc being to overwhelming for the tier, but our savior toxapex has graciously sent himself to the national dex uu tier to save our poor souls! I would urge council to not be too hasty with the quickbans, as I think these shifts have the potential to be healthy for the tier. Expect to see a lot of future sight and stall in the near future.

 

[Drag0n]

This is my first post so hi, I’ve been playing the tier for a while and I haven’t posted yet so I just wanted to say some of my general thoughts. First, I want to talk about if you asked me when suspect first started I would say this mon is definitely getting banned, but now my opinion completely changed we already had things like that walled moth and now with also to handle it, it’s definitely manageable in the tier imo.

Next, is another mon nerfed by Toxapex dropping and I’ve even started using zen headbutt to hit it and I’ve seen people call ace overpowered and I disagree and especially with Toxapex here it won’t be a problem.

I know we’ve all heard the rants about being the new and way to powerful for the tier and while I do agree with them I think Toxapex is yet again can somewhat check meow being a 3HKO with flower trick, but that is still way to much and something should be done about this mon.

I’ve been talking about how checks a lot of relevant mons in tier and I think it can be the new

Anyways that’s all for now I will be posting more often now and I’m still learning a lot about the tier so some of my statements might not be accurate or what you agree with so feel free to let me know what you think :)

 

[Lupla]

This is my first post so hi, I’ve been playing the tier for a while and I haven’t posted yet so I just wanted to say some of my general thoughts. First, I want to talk about if you asked me when suspect first started I would say this mon is definitely getting banned, but now my opinion completely changed we already had things like that walled moth and now with also to handle it, it’s definitely manageable in the tier imo.

Next, is another mon nerfed by Toxapex dropping and I’ve even started using zen headbutt to hit it and I’ve seen people call ace overpowered and I disagree and especially with Toxapex here it won’t be a problem.

I know we’ve all heard the rants about being the new and way to powerful for the tier and while I do agree with them I think Toxapex is yet again can somewhat check meow being a 3HKO with flower trick, but that is still way to much and something should be done about this mon.

I’ve been talking about how checks a lot of relevant mons in tier and I think it can be the new

Anyways that’s all for now I will be posting more often now and I’m still learning a lot about the tier so some of my statements might not be accurate or what you agree with so feel free to let me know what you think :)

The issue with Toxapex trying to handle everything here is something similar to what happened in SS OU with these mons for example

Toxapex will attempt to be the wall for everything, having to meet a huge amount of demand on certain teams to handle a lot of these threats in which it's just gonna end up as a "best case scenario" of Pex being able to deal with one of them and then just not having enough to deal with the next one. This is assuming we're going agaisn't lesser threats, if we talk about our current watchlisted mons they are capable of not just give these defensive cores trouble but even abuse Pex's presence.

- I agree that we calmed down from Moth a notable amount ever since shifts but it's not free by any means, Psychic is still hurting a good amount if you're not properly invested (which is tough considering the amount of threats you need to cover on both sides) and it's not something Moth uses out of spite, this was already an usable move in order to deal with moth mirror matches and M-Venusaur

- You need Rocky Helmet to do real progress agaisn't this, otherwise it's just gonna keep u-turning for the entire match without any punishment whatsoever and without Boots, you struggle to switch consistently due to hazards being a factor in the matchup alongside the previously mentioned Zen Headbutt (which isn't even that bad of a move considering you hit Iron Moth as well and Ace can get by with just pyro, u-turn and whatever the 3rd slot is). It's better than Slowbro at this since it's not weak to U-Turn but still suffers from passivity and lack of progress making.

- The same as Ace except you're likely to be destroyed due to Flower Trick being a much more common option that even max def doesn't like taking through a game in conjuction with Knock Off. The only thing Pex does here is act as a pivot in order to immediately switch out into resists but this can only get you so far.



This is a Poison type Regen mon with an incredible amount of things to check sure but the main difference between it and Glowking is that the latter is a lot more splashable thanks to having momentum in Chilly Reception, being one of the premier options for Bulky Offense to use as they can keep themselves both in momentum and in safe conditions thanks to a great sponge backing the team up. Not saying that Toxapex is just bad, worse than Glowking or anything like that, it's just that what it does is more prefferable towards Balance where they could afford to play a slower game at times compared to the more common BO squads that would rather use another Water atm (like Slowbro) and having it on more offensive squads tends to get overwhelming really quickly due to not just over tasking but also due to a lack of momentum.

Anyway with that out of the way quickban Meowscarada ok ty bye

 

[Runo]

So to preface this, I would like to talk about my experiences playing this tier for NDPL and building for NDFL. To put it bluntly, I don't really enjoy building in this tier because it's really hard to account for all of the different playstyles and general variance in this tier so I just end up sticking to sand balances and bulky offenses, hyper offense, or just Ting-Lu builds because that's all you can really afford to use viably without having major holes. Trying to use other playstyles, such as volt-turn, only worked if there was a really broken threat you could run on it like Meowscarada and if you didn't then it was inconsistent at best. And to be honest this school of thought has been ingrained in me for months and I'm growing really tired of it. It's really depressing to look at all of the cool options we have here like Tangrowth or Mew and find out that they're borderline liabilities in practice because their good attributes are heavily outweighed by their terrible matchups into the broken threats in this tier.

Hyper offense teams here have been pretty rampant for a while now and in the past it's really because of all of the dumb things they're capable of abusing. The start of the tier, it could easily load up a Espathra or Volcarona team and grab fast and easy wins until they eventually left. As things started to mellow down, hyper offense...didn't really; It just ended up finding new problematic things to abuse such as Blaziken, Ogerpon-Cornerstone, and Dual Screens. Even as those have been long gone, hyper offense STILL has a ton incredibly problematic threats that they can use effectively better than any other playstyle I've seen in this tier and truthfully this has been the overall reason I've been so frustrated with this tier. You have to prep your teams against hyper offense's main abusers in mind or it becomes a really challenging matchup. And with hyper offense being so common, it's something you can't ignore and hope you don't load into it. Even after prepping your hardest it's really difficult to truly prepare for all the possible variants without just defaulting to a hyper offense build of your own or stall (even then it's not an easy matchup because, as I said before, there's too much variance in the playstyle to account for). Hyper offense is everywhere right now and has had rather high usage in NDPL and NDFL so I feel that it's never going to actually die down unless we target it's abusers. which of course is a long and rather tedious process since most of them require lengthy reviews and are highly controversial with split consensus on if they're unhealthy or not. So unless they're blatantly broken then they'll all need to be suspect tested and hopefully banned since it's not a guarantee.

T1 -
These are pretty much the staple hyper offense sweepers in this tier. Said sweepers can setup very easily and spiral out of control relatively fast, fulfill really valuable role compression (such as shoring up the matchup against other playstyles like Stall and Sand or against mons like Excadrill), or both. Thundurus-T is probably an eyebrow raiser but I rate it highly because of it's mixture of defensive utility and offensive versatility which can be helpful against things like Sand. Everything else should be kinda self explanatory; setup and click buttons. I say it like that because a lot of these mons have been riddled with nothing but controversy with Aegislash's good set versatility, Ceruledge and Iron Moth being incredibly hard to both revenge kill and wall once set up, Iron Hands' absurd bulk and longevity, and Enamorus' ability to bypass it's checks with Z-moves. Removing half of these mons or more makes the playstyle far more bearable since other sweepers such as Alakazam or Salamence have far more reliable checks and far more drawbacks than something like Ceruledge, Iron Moth, or Iron Hands generally speaking.

Speaking of those three...

This is mostly a rebuttal to Awyp's DNB post. I kinda regret not responding when I had the chance. To recap, his arguments are were largely based on the fact that Mega Tyranitar and Ting-Lu are top tier mons here so therefore Iron Moth is balanced. And that's a fair assumption, but this kinda ignores the fact that these are really the only splashable mons that can reliably check it. Which of course means that you have to slot these mons on most of, if not all of, your teams in order to defensively check it which seems insanely constraining to the tier. This metagame already mandates checks to several powerful mons (ex: you need an answer to Excadrill, to Latios, to Ceruledge, Enamorus, partially Cinderace, etc) and adding yet another mon to the list of things you absolutely need to prepare is either overwhelming when trying to prep, or boring since you just find yourself making really similar team compositions. There's just not enough truly good mons in this tier for me to call Iron Moth a balanced mon when it actively is warping the tier around it. I specifically say good mons because things like Blissey and Skeledirge are quite mediocre and have very clear drawbacks when trying to use them, such as Blissey's absurd passiveness making it really hard to use outside of Fat and Stall teams (It doesn't even reliably check Morning Sun variants and struggles to stomach multiple Fiery Dance boosts during recovery turns, it can't afford to just spam Seismic Toss) and Skeledirge (as was mentioned in the DNB post) sucking into top tier mons like Mega Tyranitar but also things like Excadrill, Ceruledge, Ting-Lu, most water types in this tier, most mons with Knock Off, etc and having just very limited opportunities to get on the field in general. Hell even then I have seen Toxic Iron Moth variants pop up to punish Ting-Lu and Skeledirge so it's still very capable of a forcing progress regardless.

I don't think you need to be a university professor with a major in NatDex UU Metagame Analytics to find out that Ceruledge is an incredibly stupid sweeper in this tier. Crazy enough however, it's not actually as constraining in the teambuilder than Iron Moth. And do you know why it's not as constraining? Because it has nearly ZERO reliable answers so why bother trying to prep for it :D. You basically need to go an itemless water type such as Slowbro or Toxapex in order to answer it or else Poltergeist can quickly wreck your team. But the problem with that means that you have to use a pretty sub-optimal set and giving up boots or Rocky Helmet means you can't check threats such as Cinderace as well. Other checks such as Bisharp, Sucker Punch Cinderace and Sand Rush Excadrill kinda work but not at all consistently. You'll find in practice that Ceruledge can either gamble the Sucker Punch 50/50s (this gets semi-invalidated regardless with Shadow Sneak Variants) or just run Air Balloon to wall turn it into setup fodder respectively. Outside of those specific options, you're kinda shit out of luck. Offensive mons such as Galarian Zapdos and Choice Scarf Rotom Wash require very specific sequences and positioning in order to actually handle it since they can't switch into it at all and if it boosted speed at any point, then they just lose outright. Other mons such as Ting-Lu and Mega Tyranitar can switch into Ceruledge's stabs but they can get demolished by the common Close Combat variant. Ceruledge is just not a healthy mon in the slightest, please quickban it.

Now Iron Hands is a bit of a tough one to diagnose: It's not your traditional brokemon since it has a lot offensive counterplay to choose from in this tier, and walls such as Buzzwole and Clefable are suitable enough to deal with it. But it's titanic bulk makes it quite tough to remove immediately and that gives it a ton of free ins and setup opportunities with Swords Dance against threats such as Mega Tyranitar, Cinderace, Toxapex, etc that ultimately turns Iron Hands into a very powerful trade machine with deceptively high longevity. This is a great quality in a hyper offense breaker since it can often put your opponent into tricky situations where they are forced to sack a mon in order to properly revenge kill Iron Hands, leaving the other setup sweepers to clean up the game easier. Now if it was that alone, I might raise an eyebrow but I wouldn't exactly call it broken. But the set that I think is dumber is the lesser used Choice Band set. It's offensive stabs and Ice Punch for coverage makes it impossible to switch into that gets in really easy with pivot support from teammates like Cinderace, Slowbro, or Latios. Revenge killing it is still really hard to do since it can just switch out into a switch in and pivot back in to cause havoc later into the game. Even if you are in a position where are have to sack it in order to save face, it's high bulk means that it can often stomach a hit or two and trade with the revenge killer if it's healthy enough. Those two sets combined I think are too much for the tier to realistically handle and Iron Hands should be suspect tested and banned from the tier.


These are pretty much the secondary picks that are still really good on hyper offense but unlike all of the threats I mentioned above, this pool of mons is way easier to handle than any of them because they have way more clear drawbacks. Mega Aerodactyl for instance has trouble breaking Steel-types such as Skarmory and hates dealing with threats such as Scizor and Sand Rush Excadrill; Alakazam is incredibly frail and can't really set up against a lot unless it runs Focus Sash; Azumarill, despite being absurdly strong after a Belly Drum boost, is incredibly slow; etc. Going on until we get to Thundurus-I and Galarian Zapdos which definitely have potential to become busted breakers here since they're kinda difficult to wall after they setup. As of right now, they've either had low usage (Thundy-I) and have wide spread offensive checks to deal with them (Galarian Zapdos). I would probably check back later however since there's not really a guarantee that they'll remain balanced. Aside from those two, the others seem pretty balanced and if Iron Hands, Iron Moth, and Ceruledge at the very least were removed from the tier then hyper offense becomes more manageable overall without effectively gutting the playstyle entirely.

To the people who know me and my past feelings about Cinderace, this 180 might come as a shock to you but we shouldn't be banning Cinderace just yet. I genuinely don't think we are in a position to ban Cinderace as long as Iron Moth and Ceruledge are in the tier because this is one of the few mons that can actually save offense and BO teams from being shredded by them thanks to Sucker Punch. Otherwise they are forced to run Ting-Lu or Mega Tyranitar for Iron Moth while still ending up being borderline helpless against Ceruledge most of the time. The lesser used Bulky Cinderace set is also incredibly valuable for shutting down typically frustrating sweepers like Iron Hands with Will-o-Wisp. Now this isn't just a broken checking broken argument nor do I want to downplay how good Cinderace is in the tier. But the inclusion of Toxapex into the tier, other mons such as Slowbro and Rotom-Wash being great options, and the metagame being fairly dominated by sand builds means that it's kinda mellowed out to me. A lot of people base their distaste on the fact that it is incredibly difficult to punish Cinderace's pivoting, which is a fair argument but I would kinda argue that Cinderace alone isn't problematic right now but rather it's teammates are the actual issue; with problem mons such as Latios and Iron Hands being enabled by Cinderace's pivoting. But other pivots such as Slowbro and Rotom-Wash are still more than capable of positioning these broken threats without Cinderace's help. So I want to believe that if we just remove threats that are problematic regardless, then Cinderace itself will feel a lot more manageable.

(pretend this is Mega Tyranitar lol)
I don't really understand what about Mega Tyranitar is unhealthy to be honest. In fact I would go so far as to say that it's a net positive for the tier. It's pretty valuable at making sure that threats such as Iron Moth and Latios don't go from hard to beat to borderline impossible while also giving the tier a very splashable offensive rocker in (unlike most of the other rockers in this tier). Meanwhile the mon itself is easily handled by the likes of Ting-Lu, Buzzwole, Iron Hands, Toxapex, and Skarmory while its Dragon Dance sets are pressured a ton by threats such as Galarian Zapdos, Sand Excadrill, Enamorus, and Keldeo. A lot of these can checks naturally fit on the same team too so in terms of counterplay we still have a ton of good options. It's powerful Knock Offs are a great progress maker but I don't think that alone should be a reason to remove it since the aforementioned defensive checks can switch into those no problem (some of them even run Z-moves to just negate the boost entirely or Rocky Helmet to punish it). These are even checks you have to force on teams, because the current metagame already naturally gives these mons a reason to be slotted regardless of Mega Tyranitar to the point where I very rarely actually force a check on a team for it. The checks just naturally make it's way onto the team without actually needing to consider it. If Sand is the problem then I feel that would more be a problem with Excadrill and not Mega Tyranitar, but even then I don't find Sand teams unhealthy in this tier. Excadrill is also a mon with more than enough checks to go around, with mons like Celesteela, Skarmory, Rotom-Wash, Buzzwole, Slowbro being so good in addition to soft checks like Air Balloon Aegislash and Ceruledge, Thundurus formes, Gastrodon and Tangrowth. Don't ban either of these mons.

As was stated earlier, I find hyper offense to be a complete chore to deal with and Kommo-o is just going to add another very versatile sweeper that's hard to account for and centralize the tier for the worse unless something is done about the current situation. Originally, I was ecstatic for the chance to free Kommo-o since, in theory, it was no longer broken with Tera banned. But this kinda ignores the other two very dangerous sets it used during that time. The main set that has my concern is the Clangerous Soulblaze set, which essentially forces either a Fairy-type or a less splashable scarfer in Galarian Zapdos or Latios in order to properly handle it or else it's a wipe on team preview. Bulky Steel-types like Celesteela and Aegislash can stuggle to check it effectively and other specially defensive walls like Toxapex or Chansey are easily abusable by sub-variants of Kommo-o like Taunt and Mixed Soulblaze respectively. Belly Drum sets, although harder to setup, also seem very stupid since +6 Drain Punch and Thunder Punch can maul the entire tier barring a healthy Clefable or a random Unaware mon while outspeeding the entire unscarfed metagame after a Salac boost. And unlike Azumarill, Drain Punch gives it really absurd longevity after it sets up and lets it outlast and heavily annoy a ton of potential checks like Mega Venusaur and Quaqsire for example. Something to twist the knife in would be that both of these sets are really powerful on hyper offense and it can become frustrating to consistently guess the set on team preview. Meaning that you need to somehow scout out the set against a mon that threatens to immediately break your team after a turn or two, which is insanely hard to do unless you have a Clefable or Skeledirge because you can get put into an autolose scenario if it's the wrong set. I don't think it will ever be healthy for this tier unless we can lift up our tiers existing fairies and add new ones to the metagame such as Scream Tail and Fezandipiti potentially. But this can only be done if we remove problematic elements such as Iron Moth and Ceruledge.

With Latios getting Flip Turn from DLC 2, it has gotten a lot harder to reliably manage since Ting-Lu and Mega Tyranitar aren't as effective as checks anymore since it can just Flip Turn out of them and eventually wear them down into range of Draco Meteor. Steel-types such as Celesteela, Jirachi, and Aegislash already hated switching into Mystical Fire and Latios is free to run it almost all the time because of Flip Turn being the go-to response to Ting-Lu and Mega Tyranitar now, which of course means that counterplay to Latios shrinks by a lot. There is still some reliable counterplay left with strong options for Fairy-types such as Clefable, Tapu Fini, and Enamorus, so it's not super busted. But it's in a similar boat to Kommo-o where I don't think it will be healthy unless Fairy-types get better but again, it can only really be done if threats such as Iron Moth and Ceruledge are removed from the tier. I think it should be suspect tested at the very least.

Now a small disclaimer in regards to the survey: when I took the survey I wasn't really certain on my viewpoints and I don't think it truly reflects what I think anymore*. So I apologize for abruptly changing my mind on a lot of these mons, but these are my actual opinions here.

*I still want Drizzle freed Arishem

TL:DR
ban these
don't ban these ()
do not unban this

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Archaludon might be joining Nat Dex UU, I feel like Archaludon is gonna be crazy good down here, maybe even too good.

Either way, Archaludon sounds like the scariest of the potential drops

 

[Lupla]

Shifts out and...

National Dex OU (1630 stats)

Combined usage for National Dex OU (1630 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1    | Landorus-Therian   | 22.973% |
| 2    | Tapu Lele          | 14.306% |
| 3    | Raging Bolt        | 14.303% |
| 4    | Tapu Koko          | 13.503% |
| 5    | Alomomola          | 13.206% |
| 6    | Ferrothorn         | 13.049% |
| 7    | Great Tusk         | 12.885% |
| 8    | Scizor-Mega        | 11.527% |
| 9    | Ogerpon-Wellspring | 11.257% |
| 10   | Iron Valiant       | 10.656% |
| 11   | Iron Crown         | 10.479% |
| 12   | Heatran            | 10.426% |
| 13   | Darkrai            | 10.390% |
| 14   | Gliscor            | 10.125% |
| 15   | Dragonite          |  9.965% |
| 16   | Corviknight        |  9.796% |
| 17   | Urshifu-Rapid-Strike |  9.718% |
| 18   | Zapdos             |  9.492% |
| 19   | Moltres            |  8.652% |
| 20   | Gouging Fire       |  8.222% |
| 21   | Charizard-Mega-Y   |  7.751% |
| 22   | Zamazenta          |  7.746% |
| 23   | Rillaboom          |  7.694% |
| 24   | Slowking-Galar     |  7.617% |
| 25   | Clodsire           |  7.513% |
| 26   | Garchomp           |  7.493% |
| 27   | Garganacl          |  7.473% |
| 28   | Hatterene          |  6.964% |
| 29   | Glimmora           |  6.942% |
| 30   | Iron Boulder       |  6.716% |
| 31   | Iron Treads        |  6.605% |
| 32   | Pelipper           |  6.546% |
| 33   | Banette-Mega       |  6.287% |
| 34   | Samurott-Hisui     |  6.114% |
| 35   | Lopunny-Mega       |  6.021% |
| 36   | Volcarona          |  5.894% |
| 37   | Serperior          |  5.842% |
| 38   | Archaludon         |  5.768% |
| 39   | Diancie-Mega       |  5.737% |
| 40   | Ceruledge          |  5.569% |
| 41   | Hoopa-Unbound      |  5.557% |
| 42   | Ursaluna           |  5.440% |
| 43   | Swampert-Mega      |  5.436% |
| 44   | Greninja           |  5.161% |
| 45   | Kyurem             |  4.874% |
| 46   | Toxapex            |  4.321% |
| 47   | Medicham-Mega      |  4.165% |
| 48   | Dondozo            |  3.776% |
| 49   | Torkoal            |  3.774% |
| 50   | Tornadus-Therian   |  3.770% |
| 51   | Kartana            |  3.748% |
| 52   | Kommo-o            |  3.611% |
| 53   | Excadrill          |  3.538% |
| 54   | Mawile-Mega        |  3.441% |
| 55   | Tapu Fini          |  3.259% |
| 56   | Tyranitar          |  3.235% |
| 57   | Iron Moth          |  3.006% |
| 58   | Tyranitar-Mega     |  2.989% |
| 59   | Chansey            |  2.899% |
| 60   | Grimmsnarl         |  2.863% |
| 61   | Clefable           |  2.746% |
| 62   | Aegislash          |  2.717% |
| 63   | Hawlucha           |  2.664% |
| 64   | Slowbro            |  2.652% |
| 65   | Skeledirge         |  2.618% |
| 66   | Pecharunt          |  2.558% |
| 67   | Ting-Lu            |  2.477% |
| 68   | Victini            |  2.436% |
| 69   | Meowscarada        |  2.431% |
| 70   | Blissey            |  2.422% |
| 71   | Ribombee           |  2.413% |
| 72   | Gyarados-Mega      |  2.407% |
| 73   | Rotom-Wash         |  2.397% |
| 74   | Barraskewda        |  2.329% |
| 75   | Weavile            |  2.258% |
| 76   | Venusaur-Mega      |  2.037% |
| 77   | Ninetales-Alola    |  2.003% |
| 78   | Cresselia          |  1.828% |
| 79   | Kingdra            |  1.820% |
| 80   | Latios             |  1.785% |
| 81   | Jirachi            |  1.774% |
| 82   | Cinderace          |  1.726% |
| 83   | Blaziken           |  1.711% |
| 84   | Charizard-Mega-X   |  1.670% |
| 85   | Ogerpon-Cornerstone |  1.642% |
| 86   | Latios-Mega        |  1.640% |
| 87   | Skarmory           |  1.639% |
| 88   | Pinsir-Mega        |  1.590% |
| 89   | Venusaur           |  1.565% |
| 90   | Sableye-Mega       |  1.518% |
| 91   | Magnezone          |  1.509% |
| 92   | Lokix              |  1.460% |
| 93   | Iron Hands         |  1.393% |
| 94   | Ditto              |  1.369% |
| 95   | Celesteela         |  1.354% |
| 96   | Sinistcha          |  1.339% |
| 97   | Bisharp            |  1.335% |
| 98   | Porygon2           |  1.313% |
| 99   | Mew                |  1.283% |
| 100  | Marowak-Alola      |  1.272% |
| 101  | Hydrapple          |  1.252% |
| 102  | Goodra-Hisui       |  1.069% |
| 103  | Latias-Mega        |  1.055% |
| 104  | Hippowdon          |  1.054% |
| 105  | Suicune            |  1.042% |
| 106  | Hydreigon          |  1.041% |
| 107  | Gardevoir-Mega     |  1.017% |
| 108  | Breloom            |  0.990% |
| 109  | Enamorus           |  0.971% |
| 110  | Azumarill          |  0.934% |
| 111  | Keldeo             |  0.925% |
| 112  | Mimikyu            |  0.880% |
| 113  | Manaphy            |  0.854% |
| 114  | Nidoking           |  0.839% |
| 115  | Amoonguss          |  0.830% |
| 116  | Zapdos-Galar       |  0.809% |
| 117  | Volcanion          |  0.793% |
| 118  | Lilligant-Hisui    |  0.782% |
| 119  | Blacephalon        |  0.772% |
| 120  | Altaria-Mega       |  0.755% |
| 121  | Xurkitree          |  0.744% |
| 122  | Polteageist        |  0.732% |
| 123  | Kleavor            |  0.730% |
| 124  | Araquanid          |  0.721% |
| 125  | Beedrill-Mega      |  0.718% |
| 126  | Garchomp-Mega      |  0.716% |
| 127  | Dracozolt          |  0.705% |
| 128  | Arcanine-Hisui     |  0.694% |
| 129  | Latias             |  0.690% |
| 130  | Salamence          |  0.688% |
| 131  | Armarouge          |  0.661% |
| 132  | Slowking           |  0.660% |
| 133  | Zoroark-Hisui      |  0.641% |
| 134  | Gengar             |  0.637% |
| 135  | Reuniclus          |  0.627% |
| 136  | Gardevoir          |  0.620% |
| 137  | Smeargle           |  0.603% |
| 138  | Tangrowth          |  0.602% |
| 139  | Thundurus-Therian  |  0.594% |
| 140  | Shuckle            |  0.580% |
| 141  | Metagross          |  0.573% |
| 142  | Iron Jugulis       |  0.568% |
| 143  | Tapu Bulu          |  0.565% |
| 144  | Primarina          |  0.560% |
| 145  | Pawmot             |  0.554% |
| 146  | Gyarados           |  0.553% |
| 147  | Porygon-Z          |  0.552% |
| 148  | Zeraora            |  0.539% |
| 149  | Scizor             |  0.524% |
| 150  | Stakataka          |  0.522% |
| 151  | Nihilego           |  0.521% |
| 152  | Necrozma           |  0.508% |
| 153  | Galvantula         |  0.501% |
| 154  | Cloyster           |  0.500% |
| 155  | Snorlax            |  0.493% |
| 156  | Gastrodon          |  0.490% |
| 157  | Ogerpon            |  0.489% |
| 158  | Alakazam           |  0.486% |
| 159  | Togekiss           |  0.486% |
| 160  | Muk-Alola          |  0.475% |
| 161  | Aerodactyl-Mega    |  0.472% |
| 162  | Umbreon            |  0.470% |
| 163  | Buzzwole           |  0.463% |
| 164  | Aggron-Mega        |  0.444% |
| 165  | Crawdaunt          |  0.425% |
| 166  | Mandibuzz          |  0.407% |
| 167  | Manectric-Mega     |  0.395% |
| 168  | Comfey             |  0.372% |
| 169  | Sceptile-Mega      |  0.370% |
| 170  | Weezing-Galar      |  0.364% |
| 171  | Staraptor          |  0.359% |
| 172  | Raichu-Alola       |  0.359% |
| 173  | Empoleon           |  0.355% |
| 174  | Gallade-Mega       |  0.353% |
| 175  | Haxorus            |  0.334% |
| 176  | Heracross-Mega     |  0.332% |
| 177  | Quaquaval          |  0.318% |
| 178  | Absol-Mega         |  0.310% |
| 179  | Deoxys-Defense     |  0.309% |
| 180  | Arcanine           |  0.305% |
| 181  | Okidogi            |  0.298% |
| 182  | Sandy Shocks       |  0.291% |
| 183  | Talonflame         |  0.272% |
| 184  | Blastoise          |  0.272% |
| 185  | Sigilyph           |  0.267% |
| 186  | Slither Wing       |  0.266% |
| 187  | Swellow            |  0.260% |
| 188  | Rabsca             |  0.257% |
| 189  | Incineroar         |  0.256% |
| 190  | Mamoswine          |  0.254% |
| 191  | Chandelure         |  0.250% |
| 192  | Basculegion        |  0.250% |
| 193  | Swampert           |  0.247% |
| 194  | Infernape          |  0.245% |
| 195  | Moltres-Galar      |  0.244% |
| 196  | Quagsire           |  0.241% |
| 197  | Iron Leaves        |  0.241% |
| 198  | Darmanitan         |  0.234% |
| 199  | Entei              |  0.228% |
| 200  | Pidgeot-Mega       |  0.227% |
| 201  | Steelix-Mega       |  0.224% |
| 202  | Camerupt-Mega      |  0.221% |
| 203  | Espeon             |  0.219% |
| 204  | Houndoom-Mega      |  0.206% |
| 205  | Mantine            |  0.203% |
| 206  | Slowbro-Galar      |  0.203% |
| 207  | Milotic            |  0.201% |
| 208  | Slurpuff           |  0.201% |
| 209  | Noivern            |  0.200% |
| 210  | Floatzel           |  0.198% |
| 211  | Rotom-Heat         |  0.198% |
| 212  | Corsola-Galar      |  0.195% |
| 213  | Torterra           |  0.195% |
| 214  | Basculegion-F      |  0.193% |
| 215  | Maushold           |  0.185% |
| 216  | Pikachu            |  0.185% |
| 217  | Sharpedo-Mega      |  0.179% |
| 218  | Celebi             |  0.179% |
| 219  | Diggersby          |  0.176% |
| 220  | Chesnaught         |  0.175% |
| 221  | Cinccino           |  0.173% |
| 222  | Minior             |  0.172% |
| 223  | Arctozolt          |  0.169% |
| 224  | Registeel          |  0.169% |
| 225  | Sylveon            |  0.168% |
| 226  | Politoed           |  0.163% |
| 227  | Raikou             |  0.160% |
| 228  | Klefki             |  0.153% |
| 229  | Scream Tail        |  0.149% |
| 230  | Slowbro-Mega       |  0.148% |
| 231  | Jolteon            |  0.142% |
| 232  | Lucario            |  0.142% |
| 233  | Terrakion          |  0.142% |
| 234  | Meloetta           |  0.137% |
| 235  | Indeedee           |  0.137% |
| 236  | Pyukumuku          |  0.132% |
| 237  | Gallade            |  0.132% |
| 238  | Abomasnow-Mega     |  0.127% |
| 239  | Salazzle           |  0.127% |
| 240  | Goodra             |  0.126% |
| 241  | Golisopod          |  0.124% |
| 242  | Whimsicott         |  0.124% |
| 243  | Conkeldurr         |  0.118% |
| 244  | Florges            |  0.118% |
| 245  | Munkidori          |  0.118% |
| 246  | Roserade           |  0.118% |
| 247  | Enamorus-Therian   |  0.117% |
| 248  | Regidrago          |  0.117% |
| 249  | Krookodile         |  0.116% |
| 250  | Druddigon          |  0.115% |
| 251  | Rhyperior          |  0.114% |
| 252  | Typhlosion-Hisui   |  0.110% |
| 253  | Azelf              |  0.108% |
| 254  | Zoroark            |  0.107% |
| 255  | Crobat             |  0.107% |
| 256  | Vikavolt           |  0.106% |
| 257  | Ludicolo           |  0.105% |
| 258  | Typhlosion         |  0.103% |
| 259  | Glalie-Mega        |  0.100% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +

Ceruledge moved from NDUUBL to NDOU
Kyurem moved from NDUUBL to NDOU

Pecharunt moved from NDOU to NDUU
Torkoal moved from NDOU to NDUU

Gallade-Mega moved from NDRUBL to NDUU
Latias-Mega moved from NDRUBL to NDUU
Metagross moved from NDRU to NDUU

mochi

 

[Lupla]

With permission of Arishem i will be continue the double posting as there is basically no choice



So today Cinderace has been Banned from National Dex UU which is not just a big relief for the tier given how unhealthy it has been for a long time but it also brought a lot of changes. These changes are today's topic as now teambuilding took a massive change with not just the disappearance of a good speedster but also one of the more excellent yet overwhelming pivots around.

Direct Fire Type Competition ​

Now that the biggest roadblock for these Fires are gone, it's more likely that people will start to notice other options that could get close to Cinderace's role, one of them being:

Victini hasn't really been having much success in recent times, ever since the early days, it has struggled to make a name for itself for not just because of other offensive Fire and Psychic types existing but also due to a lack of worthwhile trades. It has good offensive tools (great coverage, u-turn and decent bulk, power and speed) but it's typing has been holding it back considerably as it really disliked almost every single meta trend (besides maybe Blaziken). Choice sets were fine and Omnibooster was already struggling without Ting-Lu around (now you can imagine how it's doing right now) and Boots Pivot was mostly outclassed by Cinderace.

With that not being the case anymore it seems Victini could find a new spot as people wanna replicate some of it's success. Fire/Psychic still has uses in dealing with the common Poisons and Steels like M-Venusaur, Toxapex, Skarmory, Celesteela and sometimes Iron Moth and it has the coverage to pressure a lot of common defensive cores (Especially the boots variants) but unfortunately both the typing and average speed tier leave it really vulnerable to opposing Offense as practically everything is gonna hit it for good damage.

So this one is no surprise to everybody, while a way different offensive threat than Cinderace, boots pivot variants are also more open now that a good offensive check is gone and being one of the closer ones to it's level. I could discuss more about this mon but it really hasn't changed as much and people have already commented about this enough, all it's doing is cover a few ace slots and keep waiting for Latios to stop spreading more M-Ttar and Ting-Lu propaganda.

This is another Fire that has mostly been forgotten (mainly with Toxapex being in the tier and the usage of Latios). Volcanion shares the hazard control capabilities part as a bulky defogger that's not only a good offensive threat but also threatens out a lot of the rockers and spikers alone but there's also the fact that being a slow Fire type in this meta is heavily detrimental which is even more notable when you can potentially struggle with really common meta trends like Ting-Lu BO's with Rotom-Wash and Latios and Sand squads with M-Tyranitar + a bulky Water (Slowbro or Toxapex).

Given how things could go right now, if the meta becomes a lot more balance focused, Volcanion could see some use as Sub sets could be really threatning with hazard stack support but as of right now it's just wishing for Latios to be gone more than anything.

The Cinderace "Answers"​

Starting off with the Bulky Waters. Toxapex is surprisingly affected positively about this, sure losing ace sucks as it's one of the main reasons you were using this but it's a lot less pressured to run more physically bulky spreads and more importantly being able to run anything besides Boots which it previously used as it would just get worn down quickly by Hazards when fighting Ace otherwise (Especially vs Zen Headbutt variants).

Slowbro was already a copium mechanism, it never checked it well due to how much damage it takes from U-Turn and it only worked when the Ace user clicked anything that wasn't Gunk Shot or U-Turn which it often didn't need to when the teams Slowbro was on heavily relied on it and couldn't manage outside of it and maybe M-TTar or their own Ace.

Before Toxapex arrived (and for a short period of time) this was considered THE BEST WATER in the tier because of how impossible it was to deal with M-Ttar + Ace together, being a lot more reliable than any other option as it could still handle most of Ace's moves without getting destroyed by M-Ttar as badly as the other Waters.

Nowadays Rotom-Wash and Toxapex have taken it's position in both BO and Balance alongside Ting-Lu who's one of the best hazard setters around and the most splashable good check to Iron Moth and Latios (two massive threats at the moment).

Skeledirge was already super niche with most of the problems Victini has in having a bad typing for the meta while also being slow but it had some relevance as it was a hard counter to Ace long term if played properly despite the Vulnerability to being destroyed by M-TTar but now there's little reason to use it due to how harsh it's flaws are.

It's less pressured to be both a check to Ace and Iron Moth at the same time and makes non M-Ttar Sand a lot better considering they aren't able to slot Waters or Speed Control that much.

Really close to losing it's relevance now that there's not just more stuff that checks it but it lost a really common offensive threat it could handle really well, only Moth remains.

More General Changes

​

Now that Cinderace left, this unfortunately means we lost not only a splashable speed control pivot but also hazard control (if only we had more than one good fogger huh...). For Speed control it's more likely to be back to 350/110 being the highest one in most matches which could give more value to smth like Zeraora, Alakazam or maybe more niche picks like Zygarde-10% or Thundurus-I. In terms of hazard control, we were already using Rotom-Wash on BO, Excadrill on Sand and some Balances or Skarmory on Stall anyway while Court Change has falled off a bit due to Cinderace wanting more threat potential than ever (From Sucker Punch + Gunk/HJK on Ceruledge days to Zen Headbutt with Toxapex being introduced.

Could probably had polished this a lot more but considering i'm writing this at like 7 AM, running out of battery here and going to work in like 30 minutes i probably just want a quick topic to throw out and give this thread a bit more life so now i'm just gonna ask everyone what else do you think is gonna be on the rise with Cinderace banned or what becomes considerably worse.

That's all, see you all later because i'm not gonna bring my phone so i'll be completely out for probably the next 5 hours.

Ending (Most likely not Canon)

 

[Pubo]

Red Card for you buddy
After one of the most disputed Suspect Tests of all time (damn who thought Ace was going to be banned) , Cinderace is nothing more than a old tale now. Lupla already covered our amazing Fire-type options and i would like to talk a little about the great Speed Control available here now that Ace left our beloved tier. As Lupla mentioned, our priority right now is outpace the 350 benchmark (Latios to be more specific) so i will cover 2 to 3 options here.

Fun Fact about Speed Control here before i start

Why every Scarfer or faster Pokemon here are either

• Weak to Rocks

or

• Tyranitar's food

are exceptions but man

The Really Fast Guys

​

Driller

Excadrill @ Steelium Z
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin / Rock Slide

Excadrill is really splashable considering 70% of the NDUU teams right now are dedicated Sand Builds with Tyranitar or variations of it. Jolly is the dominant choice, but i think Adamant is fine as well considering 604 (Jolly) is still slower than +2 G-Moltres or +1 M-Aero (you lose the opposing Sand Rush Excadrill matchup, but just deal with it ig?). Adamant is still faster than Booster Moth, which is cool. However, the main problem with Drill is that sand is not always up, which means that in a few scenarios you need to sacrifice your sand setter so Excadrill can do its job, making it unrealiable sometimes. You also need to save the Z-Move to KO Latios, so if you use it at the wrong moment to break something else you are probably done.

Calc

252 Atk Excadrill Corkscrew Crash (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 324-382 (107.6 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

99% of NDUU Gen 8 teams have this guy or his slower brother, Mega Manectric

Zeraora @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Naive Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Volt Switch
- Knock Off
- Toxic / Close Combat / Grass Knot / Hidden Power [Ice]

OK now this guy really has a big 4MSS. Volt Switch / Plasma / Knock Off are must runs. Knock Off is the only way to kill Latios and this guy best way to make progress at all because Zeraora is weak as hell. The fourth slot is a complete mess though. You want Toxic for Ground-types or Mega Latias, but Close Combat could be solid to KO or pressure Mega Tyranitar, Hydreigon, and maybe Ting-Lu right away. However, you probably already noticed that this guy does anything even after using Toxic, as it can't pivot with Volt Switch, forcing you to play agressively by making doubles, and Zeraora struggles to revenge kill a lot of targets. Finally, HP Ice or Grass Knot can deal some damage against Ground-types like Hippo, but since Ace is gone, they can run SpD much more freely than before. TDLR; You can use Zeraora as a Speed Control? Yes! Revenge Killer? No!

Calcs

252 Atk Zeraora Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 230-272 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Zeraora Plasma Fists vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 186-220 (61.7 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

You can't revenge kill DD Ttar or Hydra without Close Combat too...

Alakazam becoming broken after we ban everything that outspeeeds it and Mega Tyranitar :0

Alakazam @ Focus Sash / Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 28 Def / 228 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Shadow Ball / Recover
- Focus Blast

My favorite variation is Focus Sash and maybe this is the best option here. This guy is faster than Latios, revenge kills Booster Moth, Sand Rush Excadrill (just hit Focus Blast bro), and Jolly Dragon Dance Tyranitar after super low chip. The drop in power is not a big deal tbh and sometimes you can cook end games with Nasty Plot. Not much to talk here, Alakazam is just good.

Calcs

252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 308-364 (90.3 - 106.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 166-196 (55.1 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 384-452 (106.3 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 338-402 (112.2 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Choice Scarf Users
​

Hydra

Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast / Earth Power / Defog / Fire Blast
- U-turn

Probably the second best choice. Revenge Kills weakened Moth with Draco OR can KO it right away with Earth Power. Sludge Wave kills you if Moth gets a boost (wow another 50/50) but well, this is Iron Moth . Latios dies to Draco and Zam to Dark Pulse. Having U-turn unlike the previous Pokemon is also cool, but tbh i always prefer to run other Hydreigon's sets than this one. Main problem is being super weak honestly without Z or Specs and relying on prediction to actually do damage against its checks. Also Defog here is not really good, run Scarf Rotom-W. (Mega Tyranitar's honest reaction when he discovers your entry hazard remover is Choice Scarf Hydreigon: )

Calcs

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Moth: 190-225 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Moth: 356-420 (118.2 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 380-450 (126.2 - 149.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 266-314 (105.9 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Washer

Rotom-Wash @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Volt Switch
- Trick
- Defog

Pivot that revenge kills Moth? Hey this look interesting! Main problem is: Scarf Rotom-W really wants to Trick Choice Scarf really fast so it can clear hazards or pivot freely after that, meaning your Speed Control is gone and you need to run something else, otherwise any fast Pokemon destroys you.

Calc

0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Moth: 228-270 (75.7 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
nvm Hydro Pump can't OHKO Moth......

idk just pray for Moth player be the unluckiest guy in the world and not get Fiery Dance boosts..

Ok options, but with a lot of Problems

​

Enamorus

Enamorus @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Cute Charm
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Earth Power
- Mystical Fire / Grass Knot
- Healing Wish

Good against Latios, sucks against everything else. Stealth Rock weakness also really hurts and we have idk 2 good Defoggers? Gamefreak why Enamorus isn't pure Fairy-type with Levitate? Healing Wish is cool, but idk sometimes it feels like this is the only thing Enamorus is doing....

Calcs

252 SpA Enamorus Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 294-348 (97.6 - 115.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Healing Wish is great sure.....

Latias (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Healing Wish
- Psyshock
- Trick / Thunderbolt / Mystical Fire / Defog

?

Healing Wish Merchant

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Trick / Fire Punch
- U-turn
- Healing Wish

Thanks NDUU Discord for the amazing reasoning

​

Well and that's it. TDLR: We are cooked. @NDOU drop Greninja and Moltres imo or you guys will suffer next DLC . Thanks for reading!

 

[Iride]

Some general thoughts of mine that have been prevalent for a while, and will likely continue to persist down the line:

() - If fittingly so in ways similar to previous metagames of its direction - Latios is an offensive menace. People tend to refer to Darks and Steels as its most prominent answers, but even these often fail to hold up against the sheer utility offered by Flip Turn, let alone the buffered Luster Purge's Spdef drop setting up uneasy situations for other resists such as Clefable and Hippowdon. It also has useful coverage to drop most of what it needs to, namely Aura Sphere for Tyranitar, and Mystical Fire for the aforementioned Steels which may try to 1v1 it, such as Scizor, Excadrill, and SpDef Jirachi (after drops). This dynamic is especially concerning as Latios itself also has enough Speed, resists and SpDef to find opportunities against most threats slower than it, with even the utility of Levitate aiding it in 1v1ing things such as Ting-Lu unable to touch it in a vacuum. It often forces trades like these in its favour.

You could hereby argue that the sheer freedom Latios has at handpicking its remaining answers makes it an unhealthy asset for the time being and I would absolutely prefer to see this as the main suspect.

- I feel as if Iron Hands is simply put, an unreasonably restrictive force to go up against. It puts a serious dent into the majority of defensive cores within the metagame, and is also very difficult to revenge kill (and more appropriately so given how often it tends to shift EVs on SD sets) without Hands KOing a few things in return that cannot afford to take damage against it otherwise. Set adaptations are also such that the recently mentioned counterplay options can easily be lured and dispatched without losing much, namely Lum Berry to get past pivots such as Wisp Rotom-W whilst providing additional setup, or even Band to immediately detonate said targets on switchin. You could argue Iron Hands is still limited in some capacity by solid enough midground answers, namely status and pivots such as Mega Latios that can typically survive a hit + force it out. However, between its absurd bulk and aforementioned flexibility in said matchups, there's also a lot of unreliability and risk that is to be said with playing around it with the methods given.

Additionally, I feel the following Pokemon, while more stationary in comparison, also warrant some discussion. Mega Tyranitar is arguably the most centralizing its ever been since gaining Knock in the DLC, very few structures are simply able to get around the narrative that is the raw versatility it has in backing up the most notably offensive tools running around, let alone its own offensive stature that towers above most other things, though the question in priority should always be whether it ends up being too much for the tier by itself. Iron Moth remains very threatening and versatile - I would like to see it re-evaluated should some of the previously mentioned elements be removed, given that they also collectively contribute towards limiting its effectiveness in some form. Lastly, Stall has seen an uptick as a particularly interesting case - the core of Mega Sableye, Una Mon, the best Regen abuser in Toxapex, and other options to fill the gaps forms a rather prestigious team composition with arguably far more flexibility in being able to adapt to the offensive surroundings around it, although I don't think there's currently a clear-cut solution to appropriately limit its prevalence, but rather a coalition of things I would like to consider breaking down nonetheless.

 

[Pubo]

Ok so tomorrow we get March shifts, and particularly i have some good expectations about it.


Drops



Unfortunately this guy has been kidnnaped by the creepy hands of the NDOU ladder months ago, but i think it's finally time to get it back. For some reason (i don't play NDOU since gen 8 ) Moltres have a lot of usage and ladder loves it, even if its a C or C+ rank Pokemon there. Moltres brings a lot to the table for NDUU, especially another Defog user against Skarmory / Excadrill / Hippowdon and an Enamorus switch-in. Main problem is, Moltres sucks against our best entry hazard setter, you know who. Overall, Moltres could be a pretty good addition for us and i really hope NDOU releases it from the chains of torment next month.

Set

Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic / Hurricane / U-turn
- Defog
- Roost

Speed for Scizor, but this is really customizable honestly.

Unfortunately not happening, but who knows........ (is this another Protean starter? damn i can't believe it....)


Rises



46 | Toxapex | 4.443% |


Bro what are you doing here? Toxapex is amazing, keeps a lot of stuff in check (MOTH, MOTH, MOTH coin flip) and is a great addition to balance or stall in general. Pex almost left us last month and i think this is finally time to say goodbye....



57 | Tyranitar-Mega | 3.230% |


Ok Tyranitar is good there, but Mega Tyranitar is the goat here. This guy leaving means 5 or 6 Pokemon here become broken super fast (Lati Twins, Galarian Moltres and Alakazam). However, we can finally run Defoggers like Salamence, Mandibuz, and etc without having nightmares. Losing Ttar would be a pain for council, but is a possibility....



45 | Aegislash | 4.444% |


There is a hero using Aegislash like crazy on NDOU ladder and we almost lost it last month... maybe the Aegislash agenda is too strong...


Unrealistic, but who knows


| 53 | Iron Moth | 3.584% |

Losing Moth is actually one less broken threat to deal with since we forgot to ban it


| 49 | Hydrapple | 3.867% |

is hydra good there? i have no idea but it doesn't really matter tbh

The Harsh Reality

Rises


Drops

.

 

[Iride]

Tiering Shifts!

Rises:
UU -> OU

Drops:
OU -> UU

It happened, and just when you thought you were comfortable with having him, you wouldn’t actually be keeping him.

Is (Smogon) Toxapex ruining the metagame…?

- No longer pressed into Ghostium Z on SD sets to avoid being Hazed, and depending on Toxapex’s spread, being dead stopped while running SubToxic.
- Thunder on CM sets did technically exist for it, but Toxapex rising means Clef can moreorless afford to experiment with coverage for other things without risking free TSpikes or Knock turns or vice versa.
- Much less reason to use Psychic now, which indirectly boosts Substitute usage on Booster sets and also opens up techs such as Boots + TSpikes to potentially take effect.
- These Waters weren’t exactly overshadowed in their respective defensive roles, but what Toxapex brought to the table off scouting alone was arguably so good that it was manageable in most cases. Tapu Fini did often use Trapper and Scarf sets as a way to avoid being passive, though these might remain the most optimal on account of their ability to resist the Dragons and Fightings roaming about. Gastrodon was largely passed over despite its role in handling Cinderace, I’d argue it’s much more able to role compress but struggles on account of how limited its defenses are in most case. Lastly, Slowking does have to watch for Pursuit and Voltturn, but is otherwise a very study bulky offense pivot that can abuse status effectively, provided there’s ways to punish the aforementioned strategies, being one of the sturdier checks to Iron Moth and certain Latios sets in conjunction with a sufficient revenge killer.

 

[TBIC106]

Time for some initial shifts reactions!



I'm mostly indifferent to this, since Cinderace is gone. Slightly annoying, but it's not like we don't have good alternatives in Slowbro and WashTom. That said, this does hurt my stalls, so always a little sad to see it go.



Now for the main meal! We kick one protean starter out, only to get another one that was also in Ubers a few gens ago. Greninja is blazingly fast, being only 1 base speed slower than the previously banned Meowscarada and 3 base speed faster than Cinderace, placing it immediately as the fastest mainstream threat in the metagame, only losing out to relatively more niche picks in Zeraora and Mega Aerodactyl. It's stab combination is also nearly unbeatable, with Water/Dark and the obligatory Ice type coverage in Ice Beam only being completely resisted by Tapu Fini, which Greninja can easily break past with Sludge Wave coverage and it's impressive-

...Ewwww.

That said, Greninja makes up for its lack of power in sheer versatility. It can run a multitude of sets, each with a unique line of counterplay, and each providing different support for its team.

Choice User

Greninja @ Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Dark Pulse
- Sludge Wave / Grass Knot / U-turn / Switcheroo

This set intends to make up for Greninja's lack of immediate power using Choice Specs to turn it into a breaker utilising its natural speed advantage. Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse and Ice Beam can 2HKO the majority of the metagame, while its few resists in Gastrodon, Tapu Fini and Hisuian Goodra can be broken past or crippled with one of its coverage options. Alternatively, with a Choice Scarf it becomes the single fastest threat in the metagame aside from the incredibly rare Hawlucha on terrain Hyper Offence and Excadrill while in sand, letting it revenge even booster speed Iron Moth and Moltres-Galar after an Agility boost. This also gives it the unique distinction of being able to revenge almost all of our other reliable speed control options in Zapdos-Galar, Hydreigon, Latias and Enamorus. Other options, like Scarf Tapu Fini and Rotom Wash, aren't able to be picked off without significant chip, though their lack of recovery does allow them to be beaten over the course of a game. I expect the Choice Specs variant of this to become its most common set, though not by much.

Pivot

Greninja @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- U-turn
- Spikes

This will likely be its second most common set, but I think the most influential. The ease this thing has in setting up multiple layers of spikes is, quite frankly, absurd. And as always, our removal options are... unreliable at best. I'd expect that we're going to start ending up looking like current gen UU, with a lot of teams opting to run up to 5 or even 6 sets of Heavy Duty Boots on one team. That said, this set doesn't have much breaking power on its own, but takes advantage of forcing in whatever check the opponent may have multiple times to wear it down with U-turn chip. This is only really stymied by Boots Gastrodon, as Tapu Fini and Hoodra really want to be holding leftovers on defensive sets, but is more easily played around by other teams due to its comparatively low power to the Choice Specs set.

Battle Bond

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam / Sludge Wave / Grass Knot / Low Kick
- Water Shuriken

I'm not quite sure what to make of this one, honestly. It feels awkward to fit on teams, only really fitting on Hyper Offense teams as a cleaner due to VoltTurn teams preferring the boots pivot set for hazard stack, but if your counter to this set gets chipped to much and Greninja is able to pick up a kill with either its natural speed or priority Water Shuriken, then it can just be lights out on the spot. Many of the slashes included are mostly irrelevant, as Ice Beam will almost always be the better choice, but they do have unique use if your team struggles to remove any of its specific checks.

Swords Dance

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Liquidation
- Night Slash
- Ice Punch / Gunk Shot / Low Kick

I'm mostly including this just to demonstrate Greninja's versatility, as this set is not as potent as its special alternatives. However, it can function well with surprise factor, as a Swords Dance allows it to break past many of its usual checks without much issue. That said, it reduces an already weak immediate power to almost non-existant, and due to unimpressive defenses it can struggle to find an opportunity to set up in the first place.

That's all I wanted to say for the moment, as Greninja has only been on ladder for a day and much of its use is still being explored. This is just what I've found so far. As always, good luck on ladder!

 

[Danbear02]

Time for metagame thoughts! It's been a while since I've posted, so I want to talk about all the broken/interesting stuff thats popped up lately.


https://pokepast.es/995d6908af59b1d4

First lets talk about the Frog. Greninja is a great mon to have in the tier: Speed Control, a good offensive spiker ( in shambles), and a great tool for and against Offense. This thing just threatens so much while outspeeding everything. Notably, Greninja has the worst 4MSS syndrome I've ever seen on a mon in our tier. It wants Water and Dark coverage for and , Grass or Poison coverage for and , and Ice coverage to OHKO and . It also really wants Spikes and U-turn for utility. With different moveslot choices your frog is walled by different mons, but honestly just 4 Attacks Choice Specs might be the most broken set. Pivot Spikes is good, but Specs is just so immediately threatening that I'm not sure you need anything else. It's a bit too early to determine if Greninja is too much for the tier, but I'd keep an eye out for it. Also shout out to aiwla to pointing out that AV is a great Greninja check.


https://pokepast.es/cdb0296de291a0ae

This thing has been good for a while. Thundy is maybe the most insane Stall and Balance-breaker we have right now. doesn't really handle Nasty Plot as +2 Pummeling almost just OHKOs, and nothing else on Stall wants to come close to it except Spdef . Typical Balance cores like Spdef and a ground like or are also terrified of this thing. Pivot sets also just Volt Switch or U-turn on everything and can super easily chip down checks like and . Building defensively for Thundy is kind of a nightmare. Not sure that it makes it broken, but it is very, very good.


https://pokepast.es/51b32ca77c27e5b3

Hands is the trades master. This thing is just so ridiculously tanky, it can live hits it definitely shouldn't like Luster Purge. Generally you just need to outspeed and the rest of your EVs can be put into bulk or Attack. SD is definitely the better set, but Choice Band completely obliterates stuff like , , or thinking it can safely switch into SD. Hands can fit on Offense, Balance, Fat, pretty much wherever you want and it will always perform.


https://pokepast.es/42dcc17bc49d3a55

I don't know why we didn't ban this, but now with gone () Tspike Moth has gotten much better. There aren't many good Poisons right now to absorb, and our defoggers don't want to get near this thing (and also they don't really exist). Tspike + U-turn is almost impossible to fit, but being able to Poison and is pretty huge. Morning Sun/Tspike also is a really splashable Stall-breaker while being a good offensive presence. Booster Moth is fine and is getting better with Offense getting better, but is still only really usable on HO.



This thing is also very, very good. It generally only has one set, being Luster Purge + Flip Turn + Roost + Draco/Aura, but it does its job very well. Being one of the best offensive checks for , , AND , the utility this brings to Offense while being a great wallbreaker cannot be understated. Use this thing more.


A few other metagame thoughts. With the prevalence of these offensive threats, Stall isn't great right now. There are plenty of splashable breakers to use, so you shouldn't have an issue with a good team breaking Stall. The other big thing is that there are really no good Defoggers at the moment. is fine but hates getting Knocked and can't stay alive forever, and the same can be said of . Right now I think Offense is definitely the best playstyle, and we may see more Boots spam teams and Hazard Stack cropping up in the future.

All this being said, I like where the meta is at right now. I would keep an eye on Greninja, Thundurus-T, Iron Hands, and Iron Moth to see how they develop into this new meta. And if NDOU could graciously give us Moltres back, I would greatly appreciate that.