QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Oh I don't know about that - it's helpful to check against if I'm deciding whether to allocate EVs. But yeah you're right, best to use damage calculators for real play.
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Gen III Battle Frontier Discussion and Records
- Thread starter Kommo-o
- Start date
Dear Kommo sir I desperately need your help I have achieved a 70 win streak at the battle tower but have problems with 100 one my team was latios blissey AERODACTYL
Attachments
I have achieved a streak of 70 wins at the battle tower
My team was
Latios @ Lum berry
Level 50
EVs: 52 HP / 252 SpAtk / 204 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm mind
- Psychic
- Dragon Claw
- Thunderbolt
Aerodactyl (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
Level: 50
EVs: 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Aerial Ace
- Rock Slide
Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aromatherapy
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
This team was actually in my opinion pretty Balanced latios Special sweeper, AERODACTYL as a late game sweeper and revenge killer and blissey is a perfect wall to
all the water ice types that are a threat to my team .
Threats:
Actually only suicune with rest and calm mind
Can actually be theatning also metagross can me annoying but I have CB AERODACTYL.
Double teamers with rest can be annoying but once they rest cb AERODACTYL can finish the job with aerial ace.
Well got the gold symbol from Anabel my plan is to go for 100 win streak.
There were some close calls as well like tubers with three water and even crit ice beams on latios but Somehow I won.
Currently my streak is over Lost to medicham
with reversal, endure too bad .
Can someone please tell me what I did wrong
Please help will be appreciated.
In the streaks Aerodactyl is pretty rare but I think it is the best choice bander and can even
2HKO suicune with double edge.
Thank you
My team was
Latios @ Lum berry
Level 50
EVs: 52 HP / 252 SpAtk / 204 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm mind
- Psychic
- Dragon Claw
- Thunderbolt
Aerodactyl (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
Level: 50
EVs: 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Double-Edge
- Earthquake
- Aerial Ace
- Rock Slide
Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aromatherapy
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
This team was actually in my opinion pretty Balanced latios Special sweeper, AERODACTYL as a late game sweeper and revenge killer and blissey is a perfect wall to
all the water ice types that are a threat to my team .
Threats:
Actually only suicune with rest and calm mind
Can actually be theatning also metagross can me annoying but I have CB AERODACTYL.
Double teamers with rest can be annoying but once they rest cb AERODACTYL can finish the job with aerial ace.
Well got the gold symbol from Anabel my plan is to go for 100 win streak.
There were some close calls as well like tubers with three water and even crit ice beams on latios but Somehow I won.
Currently my streak is over Lost to medicham
with reversal, endure too bad .
Can someone please tell me what I did wrong
Please help will be appreciated.
In the streaks Aerodactyl is pretty rare but I think it is the best choice bander and can even
2HKO suicune with double edge.
Thank you
Attachments
First time post on smogon, although I have been a very long-time lurker here (probably over 10 years by now), so brief introduction first: I’ve been a Pokemon fan since the early 2000’s as many, and I always was interested in the video games, or the trading card game since. I particularly have fond memories of playing through Pokemon Emerald, and the Battle Frontier obviously kept me hooked for years. I was early on interested in the strategy aspects, and actually ran a blog back in the late 2000’s when it was cool to do so, which allows me to have somehow kept track of what I was doing in my games back then! Anyway, the years passed, but my interest in the 3rd gen Battle Frontier kept resurfacing occasionally, and I did eventually obtain all gold symbols, although not on the same cartridge.
A few months ago I stumbled across this topic, and was super interested as I’ve always loved reading about in-depth strategies for the Battle Frontier. Once again, this reignited the spark, and I decided to re-embark on the challenge, this time on a Japanese Emerald as an additional challenge (and with the “I’m doing this to improve my Japanese” excuse).
After securing the gold symbol in the factory after a whopping 30+ hours spent there (I was quite rusty, and the language barrier did slow down things considerably), in a rather lucky streak that probably does not deserve its own post, I dived again in the painful 3rd gen RNG abuse mechanisms.
After a month, I finally got a team I could use in the Battle Pike!
Swellow @ Choice Band
Adamant, male
EVs: 34 HP, 252 Atk, 224 Speed
IVs: 30-30-30-15-30-30
- Facade
- Return
- HP Ground
- Aerial Ace
Could get better IVs for HP Ground, but this was easier to rng abuse for. Enough speed to reach 173, the rest goes in HP. Max Atk is required.
Flygon @ Lum Berry
Adamant, female
EVs: 6 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Speed
IVs: 31-30-30-31-30-31
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- HP Bug
- Quick attack
Nothing fancy here. IVs give HP Bug without giving up any speed, max Atk needed due to low Base Stat, max Speed to tie Base 100. Some wasted EVs due to unfortunate thresholds not reach, but this can’t be undone without sacrificing some Atk.
Starmie @ Mysticwater
Modest, no gender
EVs: 6 HP, 252 SP. Atk, 252 Speed
IVs: 31-4-31-31-31-31
- Surf
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
Standard EV spread and moveset. You want to max out SP. Atk, and speed tie opposing Starmie, Timid is too weak.
Team building: as you know, the battle pike comes with its own specific set of rules. In no particular order of importance:
1. Compared to other facilities is that you don’t HAVE to fight trainers to progress further.
2. You don’t always get healed after a battle is also very important.
3. You may start a battle with statused Pokemon.
4. Your team will face both single and double battles.
I wanted to avoid using archetypical Pokemon (Blissey is of course unbelievably good here (thanks to points 2 and 3), but Metagross and Latios are also very common (points 4 in particular, and 3 to some extent for Metagross)), and so I wanted to take advantage of point 3 in particular.
Set explanations: in the past Heracross has been used successfully thanks to Guts, but I wanted to give Swellow a try. Although it has rather low BST, Swellow has 3 main advantages over Heracross: blistering speed (125 base stat), very reliable and powerful STAB (Return at 102 BP, and Facade potentially at 140 BP if statused), and a handy immunity to Ground. This comes at a cost though: it has pathetic defences. ANY strong STAB or Super Effective move is a serious OHKO threat. He needs decently bulky partners to switch into, able to take those moves (in particular, the Ice, Electrick, and Rock moves that it will attract).
This is where Flygon comes in. With a Rock resistance and an Electrick immunity, it can come in and take little damage, while being an immediate threat thanks to a reasonably powerful stabbed Earthquake. It is also a fantastic asset for double battles, EQ dealing massive spread damage (Swellow being immune), and Rock Slide being there for coverage as well as fishing for flinches when it can. HP Bug is here to try and cover a rather shallow physical movepool, but does come in handy against levitating Psychic types (Claydol, Lunatone, Solrock) and Grass-types. Quick attack is 100% filler, I thought it could be used since Flygon is the slowest of the team and to help against quick claw, but the damage is so pathetic it was never used. Flygon needs the Lum berry to help with status of course, although it would have really liked a choice band. Oh well.
This leaves two big weakness to cover for the last team member: Ice moves destroy Swellow and Flygon, and physical walls can be troublesome. Starmie is ideal for this. Usually, it lives in the shadow of Latios, but the Ice resistant is necessary here. This is the classic SPIT Starmie, it does fairly well in the facility in general, and medical cure is of course particularly useful in the Pike. It wins 1 on 1 to a large number of Pokemon thanks to a good typing, decent bulk, and the single most amazing offensive type coverage that can be given to a Pokemon in 3rd gen I believe. Not much isn’t going to be OHKO/2HKOed by Starmie outside Blissey and the likes. Finally, its own weaknesses (Electrick in particular) are well covered by Flygon.
Strategy: Each Pokemon having some answer to status, you want to aim for “nostalgia” rooms of course.
“Whisper” rooms are also good, since you have a strong advantage (3 vs 2, good synergy between Swellow and Flygon). Double battles are usually fast and easy, since EQ will most likely OHKO one of the opponents while putting a seriousdent in the other one, which will be taken care of by Swellow. Most battles are a clean one-turn no damage, although complications may occur of course. Be aware that should Swellow be KOed before Flygon attacks, Starmie will take massive damage on the switch-in from Flygon’s EQ.
“Pokemon scent” room are a tough decision, usually avoid, with exception (see below). Even though most of them are a free pass with the possibility to get Swellow poisoned/burnt, it is only safe to do so against Dusclops. You have to select Aerial Ace unfortunately, since otherwise locking Swellow into a non-damaging move will cause big trouble should Dusclops use Mean Look. Ah also, this strategy is completely impossible in open lvl, due to Dusclops now being able to use Ice Beam.
Avoid the “trainer” room, single battles are the weakness of this team, and losing one or two Pokemon with no healing could put you into trouble.
There are some exceptions to these recommandations: in room 5 and 6 of each pass, avoid Nostalgia rooms if possible. Having 3 Pokemon asleep or frozen is a sure streak killer should you run in a battle. This is how I lost 12 out of my 13 run attempts (including this one). In room 1 and 2, I would generally take a “Pokemon scent” room, since a battle would leave your team fresh (as long as you you win it obviously), and also for the possibility to activate Swellow’s Guts in the maze room.
If you do have a poisoned/burnt Swellow, I would take single battles. Swellow is an absolute powerhouse in this case, destroying anything that does not resist it, and even some Pokemon that do (see calcs below. For the record, Choice Banded Guts Facade is 30% stronger than a Choice Banded Return from Slaking despite Swellow’s average Attack base stat). You may even want to consider passing on a nostalgia room to keep a poisoned/burnt Swellow, and have easier battles.
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 170 HP / 170 Def Swampert: 202-238 (103 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 155-183 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 170 HP / 170 Def Suicune: 169-199 (86.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Suicune2 and Suicune6 are the only ones able to somewhat reliably live I believe (outside of Rock/Steel/Ghost types of course). All offensive Suicune (set 1, 3, 4) are cleanly OHKOed, Suicune5 is a 69% roll.
Final tips
Of course, in room 7, always take the nostalgia room if offered to you.
If you have to sacrifice someone, it's usually best to keep Flygon and Starmie alive.
One last thing, if Starmie and Flygon are statused, switching from the former to the latter cures both if you can pull it off.
I reached 223 battles (lvl 50), although it took me quite a few attempts. As said above, 3 x asleep/frozen late in the run is almost certainly a death warrant, and there isn’t too much that can be done I believe. Swellow is also as powerful as it is frail. Don’t hesitate to switch out in doubt, if fresh it can finish off almost anything that has taken a hit before. Flygon is underwhelming in single battles, but the Ground type is really needed here, otherwise Jolteon eats the team alive.
Possible improvements: Mysticwater is of course weak on Starmie, could give it a berry to cure sleep/freeze. HP ground on Swellow and Quick attack on Flygon are not very useful to say the least, Sleep Talk could be considered, but it doesn’t synergize well with Swellow’s Choice Band or Flygon’s Lum berry.
I might try a couple changes in the future, or give lvl 100 a go, but for now I’m quite happy with 223 rooms since this is (by a small margin) the highest non-Blissy streak so far!
A few months ago I stumbled across this topic, and was super interested as I’ve always loved reading about in-depth strategies for the Battle Frontier. Once again, this reignited the spark, and I decided to re-embark on the challenge, this time on a Japanese Emerald as an additional challenge (and with the “I’m doing this to improve my Japanese” excuse).
After securing the gold symbol in the factory after a whopping 30+ hours spent there (I was quite rusty, and the language barrier did slow down things considerably), in a rather lucky streak that probably does not deserve its own post, I dived again in the painful 3rd gen RNG abuse mechanisms.
After a month, I finally got a team I could use in the Battle Pike!
Swellow @ Choice Band
Adamant, male
EVs: 34 HP, 252 Atk, 224 Speed
IVs: 30-30-30-15-30-30
- Facade
- Return
- HP Ground
- Aerial Ace
Could get better IVs for HP Ground, but this was easier to rng abuse for. Enough speed to reach 173, the rest goes in HP. Max Atk is required.
Flygon @ Lum Berry
Adamant, female
EVs: 6 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Speed
IVs: 31-30-30-31-30-31
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- HP Bug
- Quick attack
Nothing fancy here. IVs give HP Bug without giving up any speed, max Atk needed due to low Base Stat, max Speed to tie Base 100. Some wasted EVs due to unfortunate thresholds not reach, but this can’t be undone without sacrificing some Atk.
Starmie @ Mysticwater
Modest, no gender
EVs: 6 HP, 252 SP. Atk, 252 Speed
IVs: 31-4-31-31-31-31
- Surf
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
Standard EV spread and moveset. You want to max out SP. Atk, and speed tie opposing Starmie, Timid is too weak.
Team building: as you know, the battle pike comes with its own specific set of rules. In no particular order of importance:
1. Compared to other facilities is that you don’t HAVE to fight trainers to progress further.
2. You don’t always get healed after a battle is also very important.
3. You may start a battle with statused Pokemon.
4. Your team will face both single and double battles.
I wanted to avoid using archetypical Pokemon (Blissey is of course unbelievably good here (thanks to points 2 and 3), but Metagross and Latios are also very common (points 4 in particular, and 3 to some extent for Metagross)), and so I wanted to take advantage of point 3 in particular.
Set explanations: in the past Heracross has been used successfully thanks to Guts, but I wanted to give Swellow a try. Although it has rather low BST, Swellow has 3 main advantages over Heracross: blistering speed (125 base stat), very reliable and powerful STAB (Return at 102 BP, and Facade potentially at 140 BP if statused), and a handy immunity to Ground. This comes at a cost though: it has pathetic defences. ANY strong STAB or Super Effective move is a serious OHKO threat. He needs decently bulky partners to switch into, able to take those moves (in particular, the Ice, Electrick, and Rock moves that it will attract).
This is where Flygon comes in. With a Rock resistance and an Electrick immunity, it can come in and take little damage, while being an immediate threat thanks to a reasonably powerful stabbed Earthquake. It is also a fantastic asset for double battles, EQ dealing massive spread damage (Swellow being immune), and Rock Slide being there for coverage as well as fishing for flinches when it can. HP Bug is here to try and cover a rather shallow physical movepool, but does come in handy against levitating Psychic types (Claydol, Lunatone, Solrock) and Grass-types. Quick attack is 100% filler, I thought it could be used since Flygon is the slowest of the team and to help against quick claw, but the damage is so pathetic it was never used. Flygon needs the Lum berry to help with status of course, although it would have really liked a choice band. Oh well.
This leaves two big weakness to cover for the last team member: Ice moves destroy Swellow and Flygon, and physical walls can be troublesome. Starmie is ideal for this. Usually, it lives in the shadow of Latios, but the Ice resistant is necessary here. This is the classic SPIT Starmie, it does fairly well in the facility in general, and medical cure is of course particularly useful in the Pike. It wins 1 on 1 to a large number of Pokemon thanks to a good typing, decent bulk, and the single most amazing offensive type coverage that can be given to a Pokemon in 3rd gen I believe. Not much isn’t going to be OHKO/2HKOed by Starmie outside Blissey and the likes. Finally, its own weaknesses (Electrick in particular) are well covered by Flygon.
Strategy: Each Pokemon having some answer to status, you want to aim for “nostalgia” rooms of course.
“Whisper” rooms are also good, since you have a strong advantage (3 vs 2, good synergy between Swellow and Flygon). Double battles are usually fast and easy, since EQ will most likely OHKO one of the opponents while putting a seriousdent in the other one, which will be taken care of by Swellow. Most battles are a clean one-turn no damage, although complications may occur of course. Be aware that should Swellow be KOed before Flygon attacks, Starmie will take massive damage on the switch-in from Flygon’s EQ.
“Pokemon scent” room are a tough decision, usually avoid, with exception (see below). Even though most of them are a free pass with the possibility to get Swellow poisoned/burnt, it is only safe to do so against Dusclops. You have to select Aerial Ace unfortunately, since otherwise locking Swellow into a non-damaging move will cause big trouble should Dusclops use Mean Look. Ah also, this strategy is completely impossible in open lvl, due to Dusclops now being able to use Ice Beam.
Avoid the “trainer” room, single battles are the weakness of this team, and losing one or two Pokemon with no healing could put you into trouble.
There are some exceptions to these recommandations: in room 5 and 6 of each pass, avoid Nostalgia rooms if possible. Having 3 Pokemon asleep or frozen is a sure streak killer should you run in a battle. This is how I lost 12 out of my 13 run attempts (including this one). In room 1 and 2, I would generally take a “Pokemon scent” room, since a battle would leave your team fresh (as long as you you win it obviously), and also for the possibility to activate Swellow’s Guts in the maze room.
If you do have a poisoned/burnt Swellow, I would take single battles. Swellow is an absolute powerhouse in this case, destroying anything that does not resist it, and even some Pokemon that do (see calcs below. For the record, Choice Banded Guts Facade is 30% stronger than a Choice Banded Return from Slaking despite Swellow’s average Attack base stat). You may even want to consider passing on a nostalgia room to keep a poisoned/burnt Swellow, and have easier battles.
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 170 HP / 170 Def Swampert: 202-238 (103 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 155-183 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 170 HP / 170 Def Suicune: 169-199 (86.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
Suicune2 and Suicune6 are the only ones able to somewhat reliably live I believe (outside of Rock/Steel/Ghost types of course). All offensive Suicune (set 1, 3, 4) are cleanly OHKOed, Suicune5 is a 69% roll.
Final tips
Of course, in room 7, always take the nostalgia room if offered to you.
If you have to sacrifice someone, it's usually best to keep Flygon and Starmie alive.
One last thing, if Starmie and Flygon are statused, switching from the former to the latter cures both if you can pull it off.
I reached 223 battles (lvl 50), although it took me quite a few attempts. As said above, 3 x asleep/frozen late in the run is almost certainly a death warrant, and there isn’t too much that can be done I believe. Swellow is also as powerful as it is frail. Don’t hesitate to switch out in doubt, if fresh it can finish off almost anything that has taken a hit before. Flygon is underwhelming in single battles, but the Ground type is really needed here, otherwise Jolteon eats the team alive.
Possible improvements: Mysticwater is of course weak on Starmie, could give it a berry to cure sleep/freeze. HP ground on Swellow and Quick attack on Flygon are not very useful to say the least, Sleep Talk could be considered, but it doesn’t synergize well with Swellow’s Choice Band or Flygon’s Lum berry.
I might try a couple changes in the future, or give lvl 100 a go, but for now I’m quite happy with 223 rooms since this is (by a small margin) the highest non-Blissy streak so far!
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Welcome, and congrats on the streaks in the pike and factory! In the pike (unlike in the pyramid) you can run from the wild pokemon and will always succeed in doing so unless you are slower or the opponent is Wobbuffet. So it is almost always optimal to take that room. (You may well already know this, but I was unsure whether by '“Pokemon scent” room are a tough one, usually avoid' you meant avoid taking the room if offered, or avoid the fights)
Thank you!
You're right, I edited it to be clearer! I meant that if the hint is "Pokemon scent" then the decision is tough whether to go in or not. It's quite situational in the end, the risk for a tough trainer is to be avoided late in the run, but early on, trying to activate Guts can be worth it - although not trivial.
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Im just so incredible frustrated. I cannot get the palace golden badge and im using literally the same setup as the 154 streak. Im on try 6 or 7th or something. Am i just that unlucky or what? I finally made it to Spenser today and everything went very well, still got my 3 pokemon when he got only his suicune and his Suicune just critted my slacking. When i send out my suicune it was just a call mind vs call mind match and yet his Suicune critted my Suicune again with bite, when his suicune was at 10% HP, so i was hopefull i finally could get the golden badge
I send my Venusaur out and of course this mfker just choosed to do 4 times curse in a row instead of 1 attack and i lost due to bite flinch......
I send my Venusaur out and of course this mfker just choosed to do 4 times curse in a row instead of 1 attack and i lost due to bite flinch......
I'm sure you've been a little unlucky but it's not the easiest team to play.
The gold fight for that team hinges on slaking finishing suicune. To optimize your chances you should probably start it as a suicune mirror then bring in slaking if your suicune goes down.
But this is a good example of a point I tried to emphasize in my earlier posts; the ideal team for getting gold is not the ideal team for long runs. In the high palace the threats are so dangerous you need to take risks like using slaking with traunt over more consistent pokemon.
Because the rest of the fights are so easy you can skew your team against Spencer. Calm mind tbolt sub softboiled blissey for instance pretty much never loses against suicune.
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Is the Pike glitch safe to use? As in, is there any risk that it could corrupt your save file somehow if you did something wrong? (or leave it in a permanently compromised state)
Watching the video, it looks a bit "dangerous" in that it temporarily corrupts entries in your party. Although I really want to use it to teach Selfdestruct to Snorlax without playing through XD, so I just wanted to check if anyone has encountered problems with it.
Watching the video, it looks a bit "dangerous" in that it temporarily corrupts entries in your party. Although I really want to use it to teach Selfdestruct to Snorlax without playing through XD, so I just wanted to check if anyone has encountered problems with it.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Hello all,
As you may remember, some time ago I embarked upon a Pokemon Adventures-themed battle challenge where I completed the Frontier as the character Emerald from the manga, using his team choices and progressing through the seven facilities in his chosen order. A few people asked if I'd ever do a corresponding challenge for the Platinum chapter of the manga and I'm pleased to say the answer is yes, I will be! This obviously isn't the place for it but if you're interested the thread is here. Hope you'll come check it out, I've been looking forward to doing this for a while.
As you may remember, some time ago I embarked upon a Pokemon Adventures-themed battle challenge where I completed the Frontier as the character Emerald from the manga, using his team choices and progressing through the seven facilities in his chosen order. A few people asked if I'd ever do a corresponding challenge for the Platinum chapter of the manga and I'm pleased to say the answer is yes, I will be! This obviously isn't the place for it but if you're interested the thread is here. Hope you'll come check it out, I've been looking forward to doing this for a while.
Nothing I've seen indicates that it is, but I'd advise using the box cloning trick to clone any Pokemon you want to alter if you're concerned about this to be safe. When I first encountered the glitch my game crashed and there don't seem to have been any permanent ill effects from this.
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If you're going to perform ACE, there's always a risk of something finnicky to happen. However, I have used the Pike glitch several times and even on my failed attempts I haven't noticed anything that could damage my game. As long as you follow the instructions, you'll be good. This is just based on my personal experience though and I haven't extensively tested the boundaries of the Pike glitch other than safely corrupting the moveset. I believe that as long as you don't try to mess with something else on the menu, you'll be fine.
Hello all,
I played R/S a good deal back when they came out, but never really got into competitive gen III teambuilding. After learning some more about gen III RNG manipulation, I got inspired to try my hand at the infamous Emerald Frontier. I got a cartridge, and brought over the majority of my Sapphire Tower team, which generally have good movesets but bad stats and aren't EV trained. I brought my Latios - Metagross - Blaziken team around the facilities, and was able to get most of the silver symbols, as well as gold in the Dome. Then I got inspired by Werster's all golds run and RNG'ed and EV trained a much better Latios and Metagross. They went from 160/101/87/136/132/130 to 158/99/96/194/128/159 and 159/153/129/118/112/95 to 155/205/150/95/108/117, respectively. I already knew Latios was the best pokemon in the Frontier, but my new one almost feels like cheating.
I used these two, along with my old Blaziken, to get the rest of the silver symbols pretty easily. However, these two alone can't quite seem to carry me to gold. I consistently lose between the silver and gold fights in both the Arena and Tower (I'm not worried about Palace, Pyramid, and Pike right now since I think I'll adjust the team for them). I want to keep Blaziken since he's one of my favorites and, at least on the surface, as a fighting type he appears to handle several things the others have trouble with, like:
Steels, like Scizor and Forretress but especially Steelix, who walls Latios and singlehandedly destroyed my best Arena run with QC EQ to kill Metagross before it could 2HKO, then QC Explosion to oneshot Latios.
Normal special tanks, like Snorlax and Blissey
The always annoying Water/Ice OHKO spammers
Some Fire types, specifically Houndoom
However, Blaziken just isn't really getting the job done and is definitely the weak link in this squad. There's two reasons for this from what I've seen: first, his typing and defenses make it hard to switch him in without getting killed. Second, he actually barely fails to OHKO a lot of the things I mentioned above. Can I make him a useful player on this team with a new set? I know his EV's may be somewhat complex due to being mixed, so I thought I'd ask for set ideas from the experts here before attempting to breed and EV a new one.
Currently his set is:
Blaziken @ Salac Berry (considered Liechi or Petaya, or maybe even Choice Band)
No idea what the EV's/IV's are, level 50 stats: 163/156/83/136/94/110
- Flamethrower
- Brick Break (I don't think Sky Uppercut is worth the accuracy loss)
- Earthquake (Considering Rock Slide, but the accuracy is shaky and EQ kills a lot of Fires easily)
- Substitute (Initially added for Palace, but has nice synergy with Blaze and a pinch berry)
I know I'm trying to use a suboptimal pokemon here and would probably be better served by a water type (Swamper/Milotic/Suicune), but I still want to see if I can make this work with these three. Any tips would be appreciated. Thanks!
I played R/S a good deal back when they came out, but never really got into competitive gen III teambuilding. After learning some more about gen III RNG manipulation, I got inspired to try my hand at the infamous Emerald Frontier. I got a cartridge, and brought over the majority of my Sapphire Tower team, which generally have good movesets but bad stats and aren't EV trained. I brought my Latios - Metagross - Blaziken team around the facilities, and was able to get most of the silver symbols, as well as gold in the Dome. Then I got inspired by Werster's all golds run and RNG'ed and EV trained a much better Latios and Metagross. They went from 160/101/87/136/132/130 to 158/99/96/194/128/159 and 159/153/129/118/112/95 to 155/205/150/95/108/117, respectively. I already knew Latios was the best pokemon in the Frontier, but my new one almost feels like cheating.
I used these two, along with my old Blaziken, to get the rest of the silver symbols pretty easily. However, these two alone can't quite seem to carry me to gold. I consistently lose between the silver and gold fights in both the Arena and Tower (I'm not worried about Palace, Pyramid, and Pike right now since I think I'll adjust the team for them). I want to keep Blaziken since he's one of my favorites and, at least on the surface, as a fighting type he appears to handle several things the others have trouble with, like:
Steels, like Scizor and Forretress but especially Steelix, who walls Latios and singlehandedly destroyed my best Arena run with QC EQ to kill Metagross before it could 2HKO, then QC Explosion to oneshot Latios.
Normal special tanks, like Snorlax and Blissey
The always annoying Water/Ice OHKO spammers
Some Fire types, specifically Houndoom
However, Blaziken just isn't really getting the job done and is definitely the weak link in this squad. There's two reasons for this from what I've seen: first, his typing and defenses make it hard to switch him in without getting killed. Second, he actually barely fails to OHKO a lot of the things I mentioned above. Can I make him a useful player on this team with a new set? I know his EV's may be somewhat complex due to being mixed, so I thought I'd ask for set ideas from the experts here before attempting to breed and EV a new one.
Currently his set is:
Blaziken @ Salac Berry (considered Liechi or Petaya, or maybe even Choice Band)
No idea what the EV's/IV's are, level 50 stats: 163/156/83/136/94/110
- Flamethrower
- Brick Break (I don't think Sky Uppercut is worth the accuracy loss)
- Earthquake (Considering Rock Slide, but the accuracy is shaky and EQ kills a lot of Fires easily)
- Substitute (Initially added for Palace, but has nice synergy with Blaze and a pinch berry)
I know I'm trying to use a suboptimal pokemon here and would probably be better served by a water type (Swamper/Milotic/Suicune), but I still want to see if I can make this work with these three. Any tips would be appreciated. Thanks!
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Never used Blaziken except in the Factory but based on my experience with it there it might be worth running Overheat as a hit-and-run option instead of Flamethrower. Blaziken has a better physical Attack but it's relatively slow and you'll want to invest a lot into its Speed to outrun stuff (neutral max speed reaches 259, with a boosting nature it's 284). If you're running Earthquake/Brick Break and either Substitute or a third physical move, then Overheat allows you to invest fewer EVs into Special Attack. White Herb obviously allows a second use but dedicating an item to one move might not be your preference.
However you might also want to run Thunderpunch so if that's the case then you'll want to fully go for a mixed set. One brief look at the speed tiers shows that Blaziken can outrun a fair amount of stuff without going full Speed. As an example, an EV spread of 122/200/188 with a Hasty or Naive nature reaches 306 in both offenses while hitting 267 Speed which outruns Breloom and a couple of the slower Starmie/Raikou variants. However I feel it's worth pointing out Thunderpunch will never OHKO Starmie even at max special attack investment, it doesn't even OHKO Gyarados on a low damage roll.
Anyway. Hope this helps a little. Wrote this very quickly so it's just some off the wall ideas.
Thanks for the tips. I thought about Thunderpunch a bit too, but these two calcs have convinced me it's not worth using, since it needs to OHKO waters before they can OHKO me to be useful. That just leaves flying types then, which are weak to Rock Slide and barely take more from Thunderpunch than Flamethrower anyway.
The only reason I didn't initially opt for Overheat is the 90% accuracy, which I'm starting to think I'm overly paranoid about. After all, 2 Overheats still outdamages 2 Flamethrowers (210 power vs 190). I plugged in the numbers, and it also lets Blaziken guaranteed OHKO all Metagross, something Flamethrower is not guaranteed to even with max SAtk. I've lost or nearly lost to Metagross a couple times already, so this is a nice thing to have. I think I'll go with Overheat.
I did some more math, and one thing that frustrates me about Blaziken in the Frontier is even with Choice Band and 252 Atk EV's but not a boosting nature, Brick Break is a RANGE to OHKO many of those threats I listed earlier, such as Blissey/Lapras/Walrein/Dewgong/Regice. Sky Uppercut guarantees a couple of these, depending on the set, but this uncertainty is really a problem, since Blaziken doesn't have the bulk to take that hit if he misses the range.
I'm still not sure about the Sub-berry combo. The only things he can safely pull it off against are things he outspeeds, in which case you don't need Salac. I could use a Liechi instead, but then he ends up with same ranges as Choice Band I mentioned above. Is EnduReversal viable in the Frontier? If it goes off right he can easily sweep with max power Reversal, but I'm not sure if I can set it up reliably against the AI.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
EndRevving is definitely an option (fairly certain people on here have made use of it with Heracross and Medicham) but do bear in mind the frequent Quick Claw/Focus Band bullshit hax, as well as any Pokemon that carry priority moves; it's not an infallible strat. It's not difficult to set up if you can predict the AI: if they can KO you they will, so most major supereffective moves will come when you expect them to.
Given the shortcomings you've outlined I'd be more inclined to go Choice Band+Overheat+three physical moves over EndRevving though; Heracross and Medicham just both do it much better.
90% accuracy is just good enough to run with imo. Of course you want 100% in general, but since you're only going for the Gold symbols I'd say it's fine - 100% accuracy moves are essential if you want a seriously long streak. It's a question of high risk, high return since you mentioned Sky Uppercut can get some KOs Brick Break can't. Metagross can deal with some of the mons you cited, but you want all three mons to be as capable as they can.
You've got workable defensive synergy with Blaziken and Latios. Blaziken can come in on Ice, Dark, and Bug moves Latios dislikes and take care of those foes, while Latios is an easy switch-in on any Ground or Water moves. But it seems like it works best as a cleaner from what you're saying. It can KO weakened foes but often struggles to get outright KOs alone.
Yep I think this is the route I'll take. Probably EQ and Rock Slide in the last two slots, but I think HP Ghost could be an option too, since otherwise he gets completely walled by Lati@s and Slowbro. On the other hand, Metagross already has Shadow Ball for Ghost coverage, and I haven't tried RNG'ing an egg for both great stats and a specific Hidden Power yet.
With the moveset more or less settled, all that's left is tuning the stats. I checked and 145 SAtk (116 EV's) is the minimum to guaranteed OHKO all Metagross (with Overheat), so I think this is a good number to shoot for. A +Atk nature nature and 252 EV's makes it 15/16 to OHKO the tankiest Snorlax with Sky Uppercut, but putting the remaining 140 into speed puts me at only 118. Is this enough speed, or should I go for a +speed nature? I don't have a good sense of relevant speed thresholds in the Frontier.
Since I'm already asking about speed EV's, I just bred a Hasty 28/11/31/31/31/30 Starmie I plan to use in the Palace (in place of Latios since Modest doesn't seem to do well there). I'm pretty sure I don't need to go absolute max speed on it (after all, no enemy Starmie has a +Speed nature). Will the same speed I used for Latios work, allowing me to put some more EV's into HP, or should I go higher?
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
The Excel spreadsheet attached to the first post of this thread is my go-to when calculating which Speed benchmark to hit. Max Speed Starmie with an IV of 30 in speed actually ties with Jolteon1 and Crobat3 and 4 at level 50 (182) though to be honest you still lose to Jolteon anyway since Starmie can't KO. So if you want to go a little slower 173 is the next relevant number to hit which requires 184 Speed IVs. The remainder after maxing Special Attack can be dumped into bulk.
As for Blaziken, I'd be inclined to run a Hasty or Naive nature given its Speed is so low. Blaziken's absolute max possible Speed is 145 but that doesn't outrun much of note. An EV spread of 188 Attack/84 Special Attack/236 Speed gets you to 143 Speed which outruns a quite wide tier of opponents including Alakazam 1 through 4. That's obviously assuming max IVs since you haven't bred it yet but you'll have to adjust those to compensate. But do take a look at the sheet and judge for yourself what's crucial to outrun. Some things 143 outruns are things you can't beat anyway (Flygon3, Salamence2, Zapdos3 and 6). I chose that figure fairly arbitrarily, but in general the faster the better.
Thanks for pointing out the spreadsheet. Personally, I feel like knowing the speed tier is only useful if you can guarantee you go first, regardless of the enemy set, especially when a faster one can kill you. Also I was having trouble keeping track of if there was a faster variant while looking at the sheet. Thus, I took Hozu's sheet and made a tweaked version which only shows the fastest set for each pokemon (not including the Brains' sets since their stats are already known). This way, if you're above something on this list, you're guaranteed to outrun it. It also decreases the clutter a good bit if you're only interested in speed. Lemme know if this is useful, or if I'm thinking about speed tiers wrong.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h0wP1S--2w0y2SaDAZtP4YO6Gj98cBx0491xP2Kgdy0/edit?usp=sharing
Credits to Hozu for actually assembling the numbers of course.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h0wP1S--2w0y2SaDAZtP4YO6Gj98cBx0491xP2Kgdy0/edit?usp=sharing
Credits to Hozu for actually assembling the numbers of course.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Not a bad idea at all, good shout!
I did another Tower run with the same Blaziken but with Choice Band and the new moveset (Overheat/EQ/Rock Slide/Brick Break (can't re-teach Sky Uppercut since only Combusken learns it by 50)). It was going well, although Blaziken didn't have to do much for most of it, until I ran into my archnemesis, Heracross, in the 50's.
Last battle (Bug Maniac Avery) went:
Latios vs. Pinsir
I Psychic, he Swords Dances (even though Pinsir doesn't have a bug move, I still didn't want to give it a free turn to Guillotine)
Psychic again, he Endures (Salac activates)
Pinsir is now faster, OHKO's with Flail
I send in Metagross, finish it off with EQ, but take >50% from flail
He sends in Heracross, I'm screwed
I try to Explode on it, but he outspeeds both Metagross and Blaziken and KO's both with EQ.
This was partly a mistake on my part since I thought Latios would still outspeed Pinsir after the Salac. If I'd known, I could have sacked Blaziken to the first Flail, but that might not have helped. Heracross has been a constant problem for my team, since he oneshots Latios and Blaziken and is faster than Meta and Blaziken (Jolly Heracross even outruns max speed Blaziken). Even Latios can't kill it safely because of BrightPowder, Endure-Salac, and Focus Band, plus I think the tanky set has a chance to survive Psychic. Metagross can't even switch in and Explode since he gets 2HKO'd. I'm not sure if I need to adjust the team to help counter him, or just hope for the best. One more thing I almost died to again this run: QC Slowking, which can theoretically sweep the whole team with enough hax. It can OHKO Latios with an Ice Beam crit so it's not safe to CM against, plus it beats Metagross 1:1 if it has Flamethrower and QC activates, as well as laughing at anything Blaziken can do.
Choice Band and the new moves did feel more effective on Blaziken. The clean OHKO's on things like Miltank, Granbull, and Ursaring were helpful, and I only used Rock Slide once, but it was to OHKO a Charizard when we were both on our last mon.
Last battle (Bug Maniac Avery) went:
Latios vs. Pinsir
I Psychic, he Swords Dances (even though Pinsir doesn't have a bug move, I still didn't want to give it a free turn to Guillotine)
Psychic again, he Endures (Salac activates)
Pinsir is now faster, OHKO's with Flail
I send in Metagross, finish it off with EQ, but take >50% from flail
He sends in Heracross, I'm screwed
I try to Explode on it, but he outspeeds both Metagross and Blaziken and KO's both with EQ.
This was partly a mistake on my part since I thought Latios would still outspeed Pinsir after the Salac. If I'd known, I could have sacked Blaziken to the first Flail, but that might not have helped. Heracross has been a constant problem for my team, since he oneshots Latios and Blaziken and is faster than Meta and Blaziken (Jolly Heracross even outruns max speed Blaziken). Even Latios can't kill it safely because of BrightPowder, Endure-Salac, and Focus Band, plus I think the tanky set has a chance to survive Psychic. Metagross can't even switch in and Explode since he gets 2HKO'd. I'm not sure if I need to adjust the team to help counter him, or just hope for the best. One more thing I almost died to again this run: QC Slowking, which can theoretically sweep the whole team with enough hax. It can OHKO Latios with an Ice Beam crit so it's not safe to CM against, plus it beats Metagross 1:1 if it has Flamethrower and QC activates, as well as laughing at anything Blaziken can do.
Choice Band and the new moves did feel more effective on Blaziken. The clean OHKO's on things like Miltank, Granbull, and Ursaring were helpful, and I only used Rock Slide once, but it was to OHKO a Charizard when we were both on our last mon.
I did one more run with this team, and this time I got the Gold! I lost after 91 Wins, and it was entirely the fault of my unoptimized Blaziken set.
The loss was to a Regice-4 lead, followed by Metagross (not sure which, all I know is it outran Blaziken and had EQ)
I switched to Metagross 1st turn, he uses Hail followed by Thunder Wave. I hit the first Meteor Mash (56.3% chance to OHKO) and even get the attack boost, but it doesn't kill. I get fully paralyzed for a couple turns while he wears me down with Ice Beam. Finally I get an EQ to kill, but I'm at about 1/2 HP at that point. He sends in Metagross and I stay in in hopes he doesn't have EQ. He does and kills me before I can move. I then send in Blaziken, hoping it's one of the sets that's slower. It's not (or QC procs), and he OHKO's with EQ. Finally I send Latios back in but I'm pretty much screwed here. Thunderbolt paralyzes on the first hit, but doesn't get him below half. He hits MM and puts Latios low. A 2nd Thunderbolt puts him very low, but doesn't kill, and he avoids paralysis and kills me with another MM.
I shouldn't have lost this because Blaziken should outspeed all Metagross and OHKO with Overheat. I'm currently working on a Hasty 252 Atk/52 SAtk/204 Spd one that does just that. Unfortunately even that set can't oneshot that specific Regice.
The team (EDIT: here's the paste: https://pokepast.es/5399e182d97e3e9a):
Latios @ Lum Berry
Modest Nature
IV's: 31/31/22/25/26/28
EV's: 24 HP, 254 SAtk, 232 Spd
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Dragon Claw
- Thunderbolt
Metagross @ Persim Berry
Adamant Nature
IV's: 20/31/30/13/27/31
EV's: 44 HP, 254 Atk, 212 Spd
- Meteor Mash
- Shadow Ball
- Earthquake
- Explosion
Blaziken @ Choice Band
Lonely Nature
IV's: no idea
EV's: no idea
Level 50 stats: 163/156/83/136/94/110
- Overheat
- Brick Break
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
The only difference between this run and the last one, outside of not getting trolled by Heracross, was that this time I was much more diligent about Latios' Calm Mind timings. I kept the damage calculator open the whole time and only boosted against definitely harmless stuff, OR when it would turn a 2HKO into a OHKO, or a 3HKO into a 2. Outside of a better Blaziken, potential improvement include possibly changing Metagross' item, and maybe replacing Dragon Claw with Ice Beam to handle grounds better, since they're a significant threat to the rest of the team.
I know this certainly isn't the most impressive streak posted here, but I'm happy to represent my boy Blaziken. I may try to extend this streak later once I remodel Blaziken, but for now I'll go for the rest of the Golds. I'll be moving onto the Arena next, with the same team if possible, so let me know if you have any tips for that. I saw some people run Fly on Latios there, since it forces a miss, probably winning you Mind and Skill, but I'm not sure where that would help in a situation that wasn't already favorable.
The loss was to a Regice-4 lead, followed by Metagross (not sure which, all I know is it outran Blaziken and had EQ)
I switched to Metagross 1st turn, he uses Hail followed by Thunder Wave. I hit the first Meteor Mash (56.3% chance to OHKO) and even get the attack boost, but it doesn't kill. I get fully paralyzed for a couple turns while he wears me down with Ice Beam. Finally I get an EQ to kill, but I'm at about 1/2 HP at that point. He sends in Metagross and I stay in in hopes he doesn't have EQ. He does and kills me before I can move. I then send in Blaziken, hoping it's one of the sets that's slower. It's not (or QC procs), and he OHKO's with EQ. Finally I send Latios back in but I'm pretty much screwed here. Thunderbolt paralyzes on the first hit, but doesn't get him below half. He hits MM and puts Latios low. A 2nd Thunderbolt puts him very low, but doesn't kill, and he avoids paralysis and kills me with another MM.
I shouldn't have lost this because Blaziken should outspeed all Metagross and OHKO with Overheat. I'm currently working on a Hasty 252 Atk/52 SAtk/204 Spd one that does just that. Unfortunately even that set can't oneshot that specific Regice.
The team (EDIT: here's the paste: https://pokepast.es/5399e182d97e3e9a):
Latios @ Lum Berry
Modest Nature
IV's: 31/31/22/25/26/28
EV's: 24 HP, 254 SAtk, 232 Spd
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Dragon Claw
- Thunderbolt
Metagross @ Persim Berry
Adamant Nature
IV's: 20/31/30/13/27/31
EV's: 44 HP, 254 Atk, 212 Spd
- Meteor Mash
- Shadow Ball
- Earthquake
- Explosion
Blaziken @ Choice Band
Lonely Nature
IV's: no idea
EV's: no idea
Level 50 stats: 163/156/83/136/94/110
- Overheat
- Brick Break
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
The only difference between this run and the last one, outside of not getting trolled by Heracross, was that this time I was much more diligent about Latios' Calm Mind timings. I kept the damage calculator open the whole time and only boosted against definitely harmless stuff, OR when it would turn a 2HKO into a OHKO, or a 3HKO into a 2. Outside of a better Blaziken, potential improvement include possibly changing Metagross' item, and maybe replacing Dragon Claw with Ice Beam to handle grounds better, since they're a significant threat to the rest of the team.
I know this certainly isn't the most impressive streak posted here, but I'm happy to represent my boy Blaziken. I may try to extend this streak later once I remodel Blaziken, but for now I'll go for the rest of the Golds. I'll be moving onto the Arena next, with the same team if possible, so let me know if you have any tips for that. I saw some people run Fly on Latios there, since it forces a miss, probably winning you Mind and Skill, but I'm not sure where that would help in a situation that wasn't already favorable.
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QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Amazing! Congrats, so happy you finally got there.
Yes, don't play Arena, it's the literal worst
Thanks again for the moveset advice. Choice Band and Overheat was definitely the right call.
Even worse than Palace and Factory? I know not being able to switch is a hassle, but I feel like Arena is the 2nd closest facility to vanilla battles, since at least for my current team, 90+% of fights take under 3 turns anyway.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
I was partially joking. But I've personally always found Arena the most difficult facility. The inability to switch is a real pain and it's difficult to formulate a team that can work around that. There's been some fantastic work done by the people on here lately as far as the Arena is concerned but I'm never revisiting it.
Palace is just mashing the A button. As long as you have Pokemon with the right natures, there's literally nothing you can do beyond that - sometimes your Pokemon still won't do what you want them to. Whereas I've started to enjoy Factory a lot more over the years.