Gen III Battle Frontier Discussion and Records

How much I "enjoy" any given facility tends to swing wildly depending on whether I'm specifically trying to extend a streak or am just goofing around.

The Factory is great for experimenting with pre-built sets before committing any time or resources into training, and if you've got a good memory then it also has the small perk of serving as research for the CPU movesets that you can use as reference for when you work your way up through the rest of the facilities. I think it's the best facility for anyone who is relatively new to competitive play, as those players are most likely to pick up at least some new information and ideas regarding things like hold item synergy. But there are few things that can deflate your enthusiasm in the Frontier more than a bad opening draft in the middle of any long Factory streak, and the bugged IVs really hurt the incentive to swap, nerfing one of the facility's defining characteristics.

I like the Dome's gimmick but kind of wish that instead of being "bring 3 Pokemon, pick 2" it was "bring 6 Pokemon, pick 3 (or pick 4 in Doubles)." If hell ever freezes over and they bring back the Frontier, then the successor to the Dome should basically be "VGC Tournament Simulator."

I like how the Arena sort of emphasizes 1v1 match-ups, but I think that the 4th generation's Battle Hall took that concept to its natural conclusion. Team-building specifically for the Arena doesn't strike me as particularly interesting.

The Palace is sort of fascinating just as a thought experiment but torture to attempt any legitimately long streak.

The only knock I have against the Pyramid is that a single run often takes a lot of time in comparison to other facilities, but it might actually be my favorite just because it happens to be the only facility that still incorporates the RPG quest structure into the experience instead of just being a differently flavored PvP simulator like the rest of them. This is basically the one place in franchise history where I can remember Softboiled actually having incredibly useful utility as a field move.

The Pike just sort of feels like Pyramid-lite, at best. I don't think the pick-a-path choice structure is strategically interesting.
 
Sad news

My Battlequest has finally come to an end. I was on the last floor of the Ice round, with the exit tile in sight even, when I got into an unexpected double battle. My lineup this round was Tauros, Swampert, and Gengar. My Tauros had been KO’d by an earlier opponent’s Regice and I forgot to revive it.

Opposition led with Rhydon and Salamence, I with Swamper and Gengar. To cut it short it was a Dragon Dance ‘Mence who managed to sweep me; it outsped me so I couldn’t even cheese it with Gar’s D Bond. Before I knew my streak was done for. 1588 floors in total; proof attached as usual. On an authentic cartridge. I don’t think I have it in me to go through all that again just to catch back up with my record. This may well be the last post I make here.

Good night. The Doctor is out.
Late reply, but congrats on your amazing streak! I have followed your journey and I am really impressed by how far you have climbed. I really like your strategy of using Perish Song in the Pyramid, that is genius and something I have never even considered. It shows that there are still a lot of potential new and undiscovered strategies for the Pyramid.

I'm also very sorry about your loss. Unexpected Multi battles are always annoying and can cause really bad situations. But I think you should be happy about your streak, you will be #1 on the Pyramid leaderboards once Kommo-o adds your streak!
What is your favourite Battle Frontier facility? Why? Do you have any reasons for that? Do you have any stories about that facility? And what is your least favourite?
I sort of posted about this in my Battle Frontier review last year, but I figured I might as well repost it with some changes and additions. I'll rank all seven facilities, from favorite to least favorite.

pyramid.png

1. Pyramid. My favorite. I love the exploration aspect of it. Battling wild Pokémon, avoiding trainers (or sometimes battling them), picking up items and looking for the exit. I like how there are 20 different themes for the wild Pokémon. When I played, I adapted my team for every different round, trying a different strategy. This was fun as it allowed me to use more Pokémon than usual! I also love the feeling when I finally reach the top and get to watch the world below from the summit, with the sun in the background. There are only two real negatives with the Pyramid, the first one is that going through a round usually takes a long time, which makes it feel like a test of patience rather than skill. But I think it handles that in a good way, so I don't really mind. The second is that the Pyramid is quite easy. But I don’t have a problem with this either, this is one of the situations where I’d definitely take having fun over a challenge.

I have some stories from the Pyramid that I want to share. The Pyramid was the first facility where I got the Gold Symbol, which was a big moment for me. Before this, I had been unsure if I would be able to get just one Gold Symbol (not to mention all of them), but the Pyramid proved that I could do it! Another thing is that the Pyramid was the facility that made me raise serious teams in order to try and beat the whole Frontier once and for all. It happened because I experienced a sour loss here in the early rounds. I was trying to farm BP for a Move Tutor move, using a team of really bad Pokémon (probably from my in-game team). After the loss, I realized that I needed better teams in order to win. I raised new Pokémon, and my goal eventually shifted from farming BP for MTs to getting all Gold Symbols. Looking back now, the Pyramid is technically the whole reason I started battling in Battle Facilities in the first place. The Pyramid is also the only facility in Emerald where I still have an ongoing streak, and it is my longest streak in the game. I might go back and continue on it in the future, but I don't think I will ever continue to the point that I get further than Doctor_Rob and Carloss97.

dome1.png

2. Dome. Second favorite. I love how it has a high focus on strategy. The way the tourney works, getting to see the opposing team before the battle and picking two of my own Pokémon against two of the opponent's. I also love how fast it goes to complete a round here since every round only features four battles, and all of them are 2vs2. Destroying Gold Tucker with Shedinja is just some extra icing on the cake. Like with the Pyramid, the Dome is pretty easy, but I don’t think that is something negative. Once again, I'll gladly take fun over a challenge in this case.

As for a story, I had a weird experience with the Dome since it took me many tries to reach Gold Tucker for the first time, but once I beat him, I managed to continue on my streak and win a lot more afterwards, getting my second highest streak (in terms of battles) at the Emerald Frontier. I used Shedinja to destroy Tucker in every rematch, which was super fun.

tube1.png

3. Pike. Third favorite. This is a very fun facility, featuring a nice mix of exploration and battles. The theme of this facility is luck, but in reality, there's a lot of strategy and skill involved. You don't know what awaits behind the next door, but you always have a choice. Do you go for the door the maid gave you info about, or one of the other two? And even if you go for the door you were told about, there's still 2 possible options as for what lies behind it. The Pike also requires you to manage your resources since healing is limited and partly luck-based. In addition, there's a lot of variety regarding what you might encounter. Wild Pokémon, Single trainer battles, Multi trainer battles, tough trainer battles, healing, random status, or nothing at all! It contains many surprises, and that's one thing that makes it really fun. I think the Pike combines luck and strategy in a great way. I also love the atmosphere here, it feels creepy and the music just makes it better. When I first tried it back in 2005, the place creeped me out to the point that I didn't even complete the round! But later on, I gathered enough courage to go back and make it through many rounds. Going through a round here usually goes very fast, which is neat. Overall, a very good facility.

As for a story to share from the Pike... it is the only Facility where I have made it to the Gold boss without losing first. Two times, even! I first made it up to Gold Lucy on Level 50, then I cancelled my original streak so I could farm BP easily against Silver Lucy. Much later, made a new serious try and reached Gold Lucy without losing first once more. I also beat Gold Lucy on Open Level, but I am pretty sure I had lost at least once before reaching her there.

tower.png

4. Tower. It’s okay. The standard facility, no special rules or regulations that affect anything, just regular battles. So why is it not more than okay? The reason is that I find it a bit boring compared to the other facilities in Emerald since it isn’t really “special” in any way. Having to go through 70 battles just to reach Gold Anabel is also a lot. In addition, I find it very primitive compared to the Subway/Maison/Tree. Those facilities did some massive improvements to the standard facility in terms of raw gameplay and QoL. When I battle at the Emerald Tower, I can’t help but compare it to the newer facilities. Since it lacks a lot of the things that make the modern facilities great, it feels a bit aged. That said, I don’t think it is downright bad, it just isn’t super great either.

My most memorable story from the Tower is that it is the only facility where I have lost against the Gold Boss. The first time I made it to Gold Anabel, I misplayed against her and got haxed, leading to a very sour loss. But I made it up to her again on the very next try, and managed to beat her!

arena1.png

5. Arena. Another facility that’s okay. I like how it puts some restrictions on your team and playstyle since you can’t switch and you only have three turns to move before it gets down to judging. However, this makes it very matchup-dependent, which means that you are at the risk of auto-losing if you get into a bad matchup. The judging categories are also a bit odd since they make you very susceptible to hax. Not a bad facility, but not one of my favorites either.

A story worth telling from the Arena is that this is where Gardevoir became my least favorite Pokémon. When I tried to get the Gold Symbol, I initially used a team of Heracross/Gardevoir/Salamence, but I kept losing. I then changed Heracross' hold item and switched Gardevoir for Starmie, and with this new team, I got to Gold Greta on the first try! And beat her, of course. Since then, Gardevoir has been my least favorite Pokémon... but ironically, it won me the Gold Symbol in the next facility.

factory1.png

6. Factory. I have a love-hate relation to this place. I love how it is so challenging and difficult to beat. But I also hate how it is so challenging and difficult to beat. Honestly, I think I would have enjoyed the Frontier a lot more if the Factory hadn’t existed since it was always a big obelisk which stood in my way of getting all Gold Symbols. At the same time, I think I would have enjoyed the Frontier less if the Factory hadn’t existed since that would have made the whole place a lot less challenging. I like the concept of having to battle with rental Pokémon, but I think the execution makes it very luck-based and unnecessarily difficult. A bad draft or a bad matchup can make you auto-lose, which is never fun. I think the Battle Agency in US/UM did it better, but still far from perfect. In the end, I think the negatives outweigh the positives for the Factory, so it is one of my least favorites.

The best Factory story I have to share would be when I finally beat it and got the Gold Symbol, which happened last year. Read about it here. It was the last Gold Symbol I needed, getting it meant that I had finally completed the Frontier... apart from winning 100 battles in a row at the Tower, but that's just a bonus challenge which I might get around to at some point in the future... or not.

palace.png

7. Palace. My least favorite. It just isn’t that fun to play. I appreciate the concept of it. Your Pokémon are supposed to battle for you based on their Natures, which is cool in practice, but I think the execution is a bit lacking. I will admit that I have never tried using an optimized team for the Palace (such as the common and popular “Hasty” strategy), but playing it with standard sets isn’t all that enjoyable. In many battles, there were several turns where nothing really happened, making the battles very slow-paced and sluggish. In the end, I just don’t enjoy the Palace very much. I don't have a story to share from it, can't think of anything that's worth talking about.

Those are my thoughts on the Emerald Facilities. Thanks for reading!
 
Last edited:
The Doctor is back in, but with some bittersweet update. I decided to go for another "record" in the Battle Pyramid. It was kinda fun to start from scratch although it made me rethink what 'Mons I used through each round. I made it to 185 floors before I finally lost again. And get this, it was on the Ice round AGAIN lol. Long story short I lost to a Curse/Rest Snorlax. That thing is friggin broken ugh. This was my team on the last round I lost...

376.gif

"Mech"
Ability: Clear Body
Nature: Adamant
Item: Leftovers
252 Attack / 184 HP / 72 Speed
Meteor Mash, Earthquake, Shadow Ball, Aerial Ace

350.gif

"Mora"
Ability: Marvel Scale
Nature: Bold
Item: Leftovers
252 HP / 252 Defense / 4 Sp. Attack
Surf, Ice Beam, Mirror Coat, Recover

242.gif

"Doc"
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Bold
Item: Leftovers
252 HP / 252 Defense / 4 Sp. Defense
-Seismic Toss, Toxic, Softboiled, Heal Bell
 
Battle Factory Singles. Win streak 50. Open Level. Retail.

Overall, I swapped most battles in the first 4 rounds, relying on just hard hitters taking advantage of poor AI. I really do not like to swap in later rounds because of the IV's. Shoutout LRXC for tips.


Started with Jolteon4, Nidoqueen2, and Blastoise4, switched Blastoise for Suicune5 who carried a bit. Was very surprised at Nidoqueen, she was way better here than I thought and I didn't want to swap her cause of the strong IV's, I even got a kill with poison point here. When need be I also had the option to icy wind with Suicune to drop the opponent to a point where Nidoqueen could outspeed. Between all the movesets I could hit pretty much everything pretty hard.

I started with Starmie2, Salamence3, and Walrein2 but swapped Walrein for Ttar1. I don't love Starmie2 but with the speed + strong IV's I kept them around, though was very tempted at Heracross2. Nolan wasn't too bad, he had Slowbro4 which couldn't really touch starmie and I got to be cheeky with recover, Amparos1, and finally Machamp7. I think most Machamps would have beaten me here but a Salamance double edge + Ttar sand chip was enough. Glad ice punch was not an option due to item clause. Big relief to get through Gold Nolan. Onto the next round.

I started with Raikou6, Salamence4, Snorlax6. A pretty amazing draft imo. The AI seems to really struggle with dealing with substitute, often spamming status moves into it. On multiple occasions I was able to get 6 calm minds off with Raikou. Substitute also is great against some of my least favorite pokemon to play in factory like Jynx. A bit of a sticky moment with a double team claydol but I got a couple lucky shadowballs off. Honestly this round was super easy, I think I used Salamence only once or twice. Snorlax is also great just so you don't have to fight other Snorlax's.

Only had 28 swaps to this point, so only 2 random IV mons in the draft. Unfortunately that included a Metagross4 and Tauros1 with a 1 and 0 attack IV respectively. I ended up with Metagross, Snorlax6 again, and Misdreavus4. Metagross actually easily dispatched the first 4 mons they faced but in the second battle a Heracross4 barely lived a psychic. Then Misdreavus took a crit from megahorn and just like that the streak was done.
 
Hello everyone! Long time lurker who finally signed up here.

I have achieved a streak of 177 wins on a retail cart in lv. 50 battle tower singles.
Long post ahead!


I started playing ou/uu ladder somewhere between 2008-2009 on shoddy battle, back when the current gen was gen 4. I then played some gen 5 before eventually moving on from pokemon. However, the recent surge of pokemon content on my social media feeds enticed me to get back into this beautiful world and poketubers like papa jefe and imablisy inspired me to buy an authentic emerald cart and learn how to rng stuff. With the tools and knowledge to finally create legit competitive critters and support from awesome people from the discord, I am finally able to properly tackle the battle frontier once and for all!

Salamence (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 21 SpA
- Earthquake
- Aerial Ace
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance

Swampert (F) @ Choice Band
Ability: Torrent
Level: 50
EVs: 64 HP / 236 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 30 Def / 30 SpD / 30 Spe
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Return
- Counter

Regice @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 4 Def / 60 SpA / 36 SpD / 164 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 17 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Substitute
- Rest

My goal was to create a goodstuff team that could reach gold or maybe a 3-digit streak while employing at least a pokemon that isn't too common. My choice for said pokemon was Regice. Yes, I'm aware Blissey mostly outclasses it but the regi brother does have its own perks to stand out, specifically an immunity to freeze (invaluable considering all the Ice beams Salamence makes it switch into), clear body making sure that moves like crunch, psychic and luster purge never overwhelm it and stab on ice beam (arguably the best special attack in the game). A pure ice typing makes it somewhat difficult to use, but with Salamence and Swampert as teammates it fits in perfectly.


How this team plays depends on what I'm facing but the general idea is to try and sweep with Salamence while having the teammates cover what it can't beat. Thanks to a lum berry+substitute lead, a ground type and an ice type that employs substitute+rest this team is very resilient to status. With great natural bulk, intimidate, DDance and substitute Salamence can easily set upon and beat most grass types, fire types, weak annoyers and passive pokemon in general. Many usually troublesome double team spammers (e.g. Miltank 4) also end up becoming setup fodder thanks to aerial ace ignoring evasion boosts. If a special attacker that Salamence can't beat shows up, Regice switches in and then proceeds to beat it via toxic stall or with its naturally strong ice beam (actually the second strongest in the game after Jynx, who knew?), often winning with a substitute up to improve the next matchup. Swampert perfectly glues this team together by providing a switch into rock, steel, poison and electric type attacks (as well as doubling on fire types, but watch out for burns) while having his grass weakness easily covered by its teammates.

Salamence
The set itself is pretty self-explanatory. Aerial ace is preferred over HP flying to better deal the various forms of evasion hax that the tower uses, with the power drop not mattering too much thanks to dragon dance. AA and EQ provide great neutral coverage together.
I have tried different ev spreads and was initially convinced that I didn't need to run max speed at all, but I was wrong.
Max speed is necessary to outspeed things like Houndoom 4 (who can just otherwise ohko with a crit crunch) as well as set 8 of the lati twins which actually runs speed. Even things like Pinsir 2 become a problem if you don't outspeed them. I have also tried other moves in the third slot (mainly brick break to help with Snorlax) but once I tried substitute, I never looked back. Outside of its more obvious uses like blocking status, this move ended up being incredibly useful to scout what set I'm facing so I can answer properly. For instance, I can open with substitute against dewgong and if it happens to be set 3 (rest-sleep talk-sheer cold-horn drill) instead of risking losing Regice on the switch, I can set up on it right there and then and sweep the entire team (due to a quirk, Dewgong won't be able to break the last substitute with ohkos). That's just one of the many cases substitute ends up being crucial in. Despite substitute already blocking status, lum berry is still the best item so I can pivot into things more safely.

Regice
This thing easily beats the majority of non-fire special attackers, with only some sets here and there being potentially troublesome.
Its ev spread is the one I spent the most time tinkering with, but I'm happy with the final result. 164 evs in speed look weird, but they let Regice, in conjunction with toxic, substitute and rest, beat base 70 speed and lower mons that carry ohko attacks like Dewgong, Walrein, Wailord and Lapras. A bold nature, 4 def and 36 sp.def evs ensure that Walrein-4 (the ohko user with the strongest coverage attacks) can't break the subs with EQ and only has a 1-in-16 chance with surf. 60 sp.atk evs guarantee the 2hko on all Alakazam, the ohko on Marowak 2-3-4, and the ohko on Rhydon 3-4, rest goes into bulk.

Swampert
I really have to thank Actaeon for suggesting CBpert. This thing hits HARD. Here are some calcs:
236+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Earthquake vs. 170 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 200-236 (113.6 - 134.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Earthquake vs. 255 HP / 0 Def Rhydon: 214-252 (100.9 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Hidden Power Rock vs. 170 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 164-194 (93.2 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
236+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Earthquake vs. 170 HP / 170 Def Suicune: 96-114 (49 - 58.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
208 speed evs put Swampert at 106 speed, enough to outspeed uninvested base 85 like some Suicune, Nidoking (another dangeous ohko user) and Kingdra, rest into bulk. It should be noted that this pert doesn't take hits as well as other sets, but it more than makes up with its raw power.
Return is very rarely clicked, but it occasionally helps against things like Weezing, Claydol, the latis, Flygon...
Counter provides a (shaky) aswer to things like Heracross if Salamence is not around, who otherwise just sweeps my team. I think roar could fit in somewhere too.

This team lacks a clear gameplan against bulky normals, expecially those with strong double edges. Intimidate helps, but they still do a lot of damage, some can avoid 2hkos from unboosted mence and neither Regice nor Swampert switches in gladly. if they score a crit someone falls. Critical hits in general are the one form of hax this team doesnt do well against. Although in many cases I can just get the revenge kill back and even the score, if something the fallen pokemon was supposed to check shows up, i'm in trouble. Slowking 4 with a strong flamethrower, ice beam and quick claw can be hard to deal with if it shows up at the wrong time. Set5 of the latis (calm mind-dragon claw-thunderwave-recover) is always scary to face, they can break through regice. Gengar and Gardevoir sets that carry fire punch and/or destiny bond can potentially bring down regice, as can strong water types if they get crits at the wrong time, expecially under rain.
The loss was kinda preventable. I didn't time a Lapras's death with toxic correctly with Regice, went into last pokemon Ursaring 7/8 (probably 8) without a sub up and lost to a quick claw activation when we both were in KO range.

Despite the probably preventable defeat, I'm satisfied. It has taken a lot of irl time and trial and error before the team clicked, but I didn't expect to make it so far past the gold to be honest. It was a fun journey!
Many thanks to Actaeon for helping with the sets and to the discord server in general for being helpful and kind!

IMG_20240327_214302.jpg
 
Last edited:
Doubles Battle Palace Mega Post

I am happy to report a Doubles Battle Palace streak of 127 on emulator

Palace WR.png


I did alot of playtesting with many teams which I'll get into later and I did gen these mons. But here is the team:


Salamence.gif

Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Hasty (58% / 37%/ 5%) | (88% / 6% / 6%)
Item: Brightpowder
140 HP / 212 SpA / 156 Speed
Dragon Claw, Flamethrower, Crunch, Substitute

Metagross.gif

Ability: Clear Body
Nature: Sassy (88% / 6%/ 6%) | (22% / 20% / 58%)
Item: Quick Claw
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Meteor Mash, Earthquake, Shadow Ball, Explosion

Dusclops.gif

Ability: Pressure
Nature: Bashful (30% / 58%/ 12%) | (30% / 58% / 12%)
Item: Leftovers
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef
Seismic Toss, Double Team, Rest, Foresight

The %'s of the natures above show the chance of Attack, Defense or Support moves when Above 50% hp and below 50% hp respectively.

So when I heard about the Battle Palace, I was immediately intrigued about the concept. The ultimate teambuilding challenge. Figuring out what gives you the best odds and putting it to the test. The only real power you have is in switching. And in doubles switching usually puts you at a big disadvantage which makes this even more difficult. Although there were a few games in this run where switching was important (including the loss, a misplay).

From reading the posts about singles palace it seemed like substitute and boosting was the key. However with 2 opponents attacking all the time, setting up becomes difficult in doubles. I thought it was still worth exploring though since prior to actually playing it seemed like there were alot of "nothing" turns.

When I initially started teambuilding, I was trying to create teams that utilized all 3 move categories. I figured if I could get value out of every move rather than have a potential coin flip where I do nothing, that would help me in the long run. Obviously spamming attacking moves is good. Spamming defensive moves can be ok, because they include basically every boosting move - calm mind, bulk up, swords dance etc. Spamming Support moves is tricky though because there's alot of status moves, which don't do anything once they've hit, but the fact that curse was left in the support moves intrigued me being the only boosting move there.

Regarding the natures, I knew Hasty was common in singles and it makes sense, high chance to either sub or attack at high hp, and low hp very high chance to attack. So trying to utilize a support move would be a waste of a move slot. However, in doubles since you can have your sub broken and be attacked in the same turn, I wanted to explore the possibility of other natures/strategies as well. I was initially very intrigued with the concept of using a pokemon with a recovery move that has a low Defense % at high hp and a high Defense % at low hp. This included Jolly, Impish, Brave, and Bold. Also, because EQ is busted in doubles, I wanted to find a pokemon with EQ that could also use curse as it's supportive move, since that's a hard move category slot to fill. Sassy nature has the highest attack % at high hp, which I thought could be interesting with fake out in doubles as well.

I really never considered the targeting aspect of the natures, but this actually plays a major role in the team I ended on. Especially because of what I consider the doubles palace targeting bug which I'll explain later.

So some of the early Pokemon/Teams I tried included:

Latios, Metagross, Moltres
Idea: KO stuff with metagross EQ, Charm opposing EQ with Lati, but also stall with recover and eventually KO with Dclaw. Moltres would be EQ immune, neutral to ice and resist fire for metagross. But could also stall with morning sun and hit double teamers with aerial ace

Salamence, Metagross, Snorlax
Idea: Hasty Mence and Meta upfront to KO stuff/sub if needed. Snorlax could curse/rest and hopefully cleanup whenever lead dies. Thick fat to switch into fire/ice

Salamence, Swampert, Articuno
Idea: intimidate leads are great in doubles. Spam leer with salamence while swampert either spams EQ or rock slide and curse rests. Articuno to switch into grass/ice and immune to EQ.

Gengar, Metagross, Dusclops
Idea: Gengar hits hard and can maybe pick up a KO. Metagross has choice band Explosion. If Gengar can pick up a KO, then it's basically an insta win once Meta booms. If Gengar dies before meta moves I need a ghost in the back and dusclops can hopefully clean up. (ghosts especially a problem, but also any mon that uses protect, endure, fly, dig, dive, has brightpowder/focus band/ or KOs metagross before I can boom)

Tauros, Lapras, Dusclops
Idea: Choice band Tauros KOs something and intimidates opponents to let Lapras live. Gentle Lapras gets a perish song off which if Tauros gets a KO would be the last 2 opposing pokemon. As long as I can survive 3 turns without dusclops dying in the back I'll win (barring soundproof mons)

Of all of these teams, the Explosion team and Mence/Meta/Lax teams got the farthest, but I kept getting beat in the mid 60's. I felt I needed a redesign to push farther. Interestingly the current record was in the mid 60's so I guess that must just be when the going gets tough.

Ok so before I knew about this, I never really considered choosing natures or structuring my team based on the opposing natures and their targeting decisions. But it plays a major role. Natures in doubles palace determine whether you will target the pokemon with higher hp, lower hp, or a random target (this is in absolute hp amounts, not %). So for example, Modest nature will always target the pokemon with lower hp. Adamant nature will always target the pokemon with higher hp.

The bug is basically this: When Smart AI calculates which move will be best, it considers both targets and selects a move. THEN, the palace nature overrides the actual target to the opposing pokemon with higher/lower hp depending on the nature.

To give an example of how this bug can affect games in a major way, I'll give an example from my explosion team. My gengar has the moves Thunderbolt, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, and Substitute. The opposing team is Walrein/Salamence. This particular Walrein set had lower hp than Salamence. Based on Smart AI, my Gengar sees a guaranteed KO on salamence with Ice Punch. However since my Gengar is Hasty nature I'm forced to target the Walrein. But instead of using Thunderbolt into Walrein, Gengar locks into Ice Punch and hits the nice 4x resist thick fat walrein with ice punch. Now the Walrein has even lower hp. Metagross is incapable of moving this turn and Salamence/Walrein double up on Metagross and KO it. Turn 2 Gengar attacks the walrein with ice punch again, lowering the hp again. Because Gengar is Hasty and set to target the lower hp pokemon, it is basically locked into focusing down the Walrein with ice punch until it dies. If Gengar had a nature that was forced to target the higher hp pokemon this wouldn't be an issue, even if Walrein had higher HP than Salamence. Because eventually Ice Punch would get Walrein's hp lower than Salamence's and Gengar would switch targets. Anyways, hopefully you can see why this can be super impactful to doubles strategy.

Salamence was always on my mind in teambuilding for 2 reason - immune to EQ and intimidate. Although I liked the idea of aerial ace to hit double teamers, I settled on a special Salamence because I felt that having a physical attacker with EQ paired next to a special attacker would cover opposing leads better than 2 physical attackers. As a bonus, Salamence could intimidate them while basically being immune to intimidate. So with a special set I was for sure using dragon claw. Flamethrower would help hit grass/bug types that resist EQ as well as Skarmory. Since Dragon Fire covers alot of types neutrally I figured I'd throw on Crunch to hit all those psychic types that have ice coverage. And finally substitute to possibly avoid dying to ice moves while my EQ mon takes them out as well as just being a solid strategy to avoid status moves etc just like in singles. Also, using a hasty nature strategy I figured an intimidate pokemon would help offset that defense loss from the hasty nature.

For the EVs, I can't remember exactly why, but I wanted to hit 154 speed, which Hasty helped with thankfully. Then I initially maxed out special attack and put the rest in bulk. However, after figuring out the doubles targeting glitch, I realized I could optimize my team a little better but pulling some EVs out of special attack and putting them in HP. What this allowed Salamence to do is be 1 hp point higher than Metagross (who was max hp and wanted all it could get). The reason this is so key is because the majority of pokemon with Ice beam/Ice Punch have natures that target the lower hp pokemon. Once I discovered this, the plan was clear. Salamence/Metagross lead with Salamence at higher hp causes pokemon with ice moves to target Metagross, and to keep targeting Metagross as long as its hp stays below Salamence. Additionally, the sets with Overheat have a higher liklihood of targeting the higher hp pokemon which would be Salamence and save Metagross. The interesting thing here is that because Salamance has substitute sometimes it will lower itself below Metagross's hp without the opponents even attacking. But what this does is, if the opponents were set to target Salamence with an ice/dragon move, it'll break the sub. However Metagross now has higher hp, so the next turn they'll target Metagross. Or even if they were set to target the lower hp pokemon and attacked Metagross first, Turn 2 they'll target Salamence, but I'll have a sub up to save me. This small EV change made a huge difference to how the games played out. As an added bonus, previously I was at an odd hp amount. But now at 188 (1 above metagross) after 2 subs I would be at 50% hp which would change my chance of attacking from 58% to 88% with the hasty nature.

For the item, I figured brightpowder would help me dodge some ice moves. Also, I get alot more value out of a dodged move because of substitute. Which can then help me live another hit. I also considered, leftovers, but wanted to save that for a bulkier mon. Kings rock, but I didn't think the value add of flinches was very much, especially in palace where you are at the mercy of the odds and can sometimes be incapable of moving. Sitrus Berry, but didn't think the extra HP would make a huge difference. Charcoal/Dragon Fang but didn't calc to see if it would pick up any key KOs. Lum Berry, but substitute helps with avoiding status already.

Metagross was also always on my mind for teambuilding. Immunity to intimidate, access to EQ, and typing being the biggest factors, considering you can be intimidated by either of the opposing lead pokemon in doubles. My initial Salamence/Metagross team had a Hasty metagross with leftovers. However this was not ideal for a couple reasons. I wasted a moveslot on substitute. I wasn't attacking enough. I didn't particularly care about any specific speed tier and I was reducing my defense stat unnecessarily. I would also get blown up by fire moves. Changing to this slow, 4 attacking Sassy Metagross fixed all of that.

For Metagross's moves I was always going to use earthquake and meteor mash, it was just a matter of rounding out the last 2. For pokemon that were immune to earthquake, I figured meteor mash would do well. But having a 100% accurate move would be nice to get guaranteed KOs. At this point I knew I was using Dusclops in the back. Meaning that getting rid of ghost types with potential ghost STAB would be beneficial. So I chose Shadow Ball. It can take out those ghost types for Dusclops although Gengar is annoying regardless. Hits the Latis hard. Can also get the occasional spdef drop for Salamence to do more damage. For the last move I chose explosion. In testing with my explosion team, I realized how good explosion can be. Choice band explosion can KO so much, but even without choice band, so many pokemon will die, it's just a matter of picking up a KO and getting Metagross to use the move. This is where Sassy nature comes in handy. Above 50% hp, Metagross is very likely to attack and using Smart AI, it almost never clicks explosion at high hp. However, at low hp, Metagross has a measly 22% chance to use an attacking move. However, since I only have attacking moves, Metagross has a 50/50 chance to use a random move the other 78% of the time. This puts my total chance to attack at 22% + 38% = 60%. 1/4 of that 38% will be explosion, coupled with the fact that the AI is encouraged to use explosion at low hp, so a higher chance to use it during the 22% rolls, gives explosion a decent chance in the late game. This is also why dusclops is necessary. Salamence normally goes down before metagross which means it's usually Clops and Metagross in the end game and a random metagross boom usually seals it. So Dusclops is immune to Explosion, but additionally Salamence could be under substitute when it's used, or dodge with brightpowder.

For the EVs, Sassy boost special defense which is ideal for helping Metagross live fire moves. Out of curiosity I checked how Metagross faired with max HP and Max SpDef. Surprisingly, it lives a ton of fire moves. It only dies to Overheats from Arcanine-3 (43.8%), Blaziken-4 (25%), Flareon-4 (25%), Houndoom-4 (87.5%), Moltres-2 (75%), Moltres-4 (100%). And none of the earthquakes (even marowak) kill after intimidate. Flareon and Houndoom will die to EQ, and Blaziken/Arcanine get low and die to a double up. Moltres can sometimes be an issue, but if salamence stays alive it's usually fine. I figured I would be doubling up to take KOs anyways so I didn't care abou the lack of attack investment. EQ usually picks up alot of KOs when its super effective anyways.

For the item, I was already low on speed from the Sassy nature and it would be counterintuitive to invest in speed EVs so I was stuck being slow. However, this is where I think quick claw is beautiful. It makes up for the lack of speed. And even when it activates it's not always necessary, but getting to attack first does many things for you. Gives me a chance to crit before they attack, gives my shadow ball a chance to lower spdef for salamence before salamence attacks, removes any chances of flinching, lets me attack before getting statused (confuse ray, burn, freeze), lets me get KOs before allowing the opponent the opportunity to crit me, KO ice pokemon with meteor mash before they get the chance to attack salamence. I think Lum berry is also a strong contender. I can't be poisoned and although being burned is annoying, will o wisp is uncommon and fire moves will usually just 2HKO so oh well. But being Paralyzed, Frozen, Slept, or confused can be pretty annoying. Especially after changing Salamence's EVs so all the ice moves target metagross, the chances of being frozen are higher. My initial thought behind not using lum berry was that if opponents are incentivized to use their status moves because of their nature (i.e. spam twave, confuse ray etc). Then a lum berry only saves me one turn of that status and I'll get hit with it the next turn anyways. Quick Claw doesn't care about the speed drop from para either.

Oh man was I excited to use this Dusclops. Dusclops was also intriguing from the beginning due to its bulk and dual immunity. But once I tested out a few sets and landed on this one, I realized how weirdly good it is. So my initial plan was to have to hard hitters up front and a stally mon in the back to try to win stall wars if the upfront mons couldn't break them or were KO'd quickly due to crits etc. I had been looking at levitate/flying pokemon due to metagross wanting to use earthquake and having the option to switch in. But realistically, this team does not switch very much anyways and even if I do, the lack of attack investment in metagross actually helps dusclops to not take as much when I swap in. And once I've swapped in, metagross won't use EQ, unless it chooses it from a random roll. When thinking about stall wars or end games I was trying to find a strategy to cover everything. Admittedly, this set doesn't do that, but it gets pretty close. Some of the things I was trying to cover for was boosting wars (especially double team bc of infinite struggle wars), OHKO moves, Burn/Poison overriding Leftovers, Leech Seed, Struggle Wars, Perish Song, Explosion. This set covers all of these except for Leech Seed. I have won against some leech seeders, but it does not favor Dusclops. Though the low base hp of Dusclops helps there.

The moves. To start, with a stall war I did not want to die to toxic, poison, burn slowly chipping me. Additionally, I'm going to need some way to heal hp back so Rest made sense. However, the big drawback of rest is the 2 turns spent doing nothing. I could use a pokemon with amnesia, iron defense, or cosmic power to slow down the opponent's ability to chip me while I'm sleeping, however I am still vulnerable to crits or the other attack stat (i.e. physical if I use amnesia). Double team is almost always good though. Besides OHKO moves, aerial ace, magical leaf, and faint attack, which aren't super common and aerial ace could be intimidated by Salamence. The other beauty about Dusclops is Pressure. This helps against OHKO moves, because I'm immune to Horn Drill and Guillotine, and Sheer Cold/Fissure only get 3 chances to hit rather than 5 assuming they even have all of their PP left when Dusclops is sent out. So if I'm using double team and rest, there is certainly the worry of infinite struggle wars due to Gen3 struggle mechanics. I could use toxic or will-o-wisp myself, but that wouldn't work against poison/steel or fire types. I could use Curse, but I risk killing myself as a ghost type. I also want to have an attacking move that I can utilize for stall wars, but also be useful generally. And this is how i landed on the combo of Seismic Toss/Foresight. I had never even considered foresight initially, but learned that it causes your moves to ignore the opponent's evasion boosts it was a total game changer. This is how I would guarantee win struggle wars. If I get matched up against a +6 evasion pokemon with leftovers and I'm +6 evasion that would normally be an infinite battle, but since I have evasion and they don't (as long as I hit one of my 64 foresight pps) then I will win out, getting guaranteed struggle hits every turn. Not only does foresight allow me to win struggle wars, but it also allows me to hit ghost types with my seismic toss to finish them off before we get to struggle wars, as I could die before then. I considered night shade as well, but I'd have the same predicament with normal types, night shade has less pp, and normal types are more common so I can at least hit raw seismic tosses against them without having to set up a foresight first. Another cool bonus is that I can potentially foresight a ghost pokemon in a mid game scenario that Metagross then hits with an explosion. Seismic Toss is good against every pokemon and although it can't out damage recovery moves, it will eventually cause them to waste all of their recovery pp, and then seismic can clean up. Foresight also has the benefit of having a ton of PP causing the opponent to start struggling first, which also helps Dusclops win 1v1s if needed. Pressure on Dusclops not only helps with making them struggle first, but generally helps to save me by making them run out of PP for a move that might 3HKO me such as a strong Crunch. Some situations seem dire, but then they've run out of PP for their 1 good move and we're in the clear.

With this moveset, I was free to invest fully in bulk. Because of Salamence's intimidate and crunch being scarier than shadow ball, I decided to invest fully in HP and SpDef.

For the nature, I was torn between Calm or Bashful. Initially I had Bashful, but then after relooking at the natures it seemed like Calm was just a better version of bashful, due to the enhanced Special Defense, lowered attack which I don't need, and similar Attack, Defense, Support percentages and high and low hp. However, there is a HUGE drawback to Calm nature. Which I didn't realize until playtesting. The targeting. Bashful targets the lower hp pokemon, while Calm targets the higher HP pokemon. In a 1v1 stall war this doesn't matter. However, in a 1v2, which Dusclops can still generally win, it matters a ton. If metagross and Salamence both fall, and there's still 2 opposing pokemon alive, one at low hp and another at full hp, the fact that dusclops targets the higher hp pokemon will cause it to have to seismic toss the full hp pokemon down all the way until it dies before finishing off the low hp pokemon which could take 3 or 4 seismic tosses. Whereas Bashful targets the low hp pokemon, so once I get 1 seismic toss off, it's finished and we begin the true 1v1 stall war. This greatly improves Dusclops' odds of winning. The tradeoff of playing 1v1s with lower SpDef versus 1v2's with higher SpDef is well worth it. Additionally, Bashful has slightly better odds to use defensive moves at high hp (58% vs 50%) which means I'll be double teaming more often. And I'd much rather get at least 1 double team off before I start attacking as I may need it just to dodge a move or 2. There is also 1 more drawback to calm that may not seem like a drawback. And it's the lowered attack. I didn't think anything of it because of my moveset, until I got into an infinite battle with a Suicune who pressured all my seismic tosses out and I couldn't out damage leftovers with my lowered attack. That calm nature can be the difference between doing 1 more than leftys or 1 less than leftys with struggles. Bashful is nice because I have a good chance to start double teaming/resting when low, decent chance to throw off seismic tosses every now and then, and a low chance to foresight, but that's fine because typically I only need to click it once, unless they've started double teaming already.

I was always going to use leftovers on this set. Brightpowder was also a consideration, but once I get a double team or 2 I figured it would be moot. And salamence enjoys brightpowder.



First, thank you to anyone who actually ready through all this. I find Palace super interesting, but it seems to be the least liked by the general community haha.

Ok let's start with the loss. I was facing a Banded armaldo, which I could have damage calced to figure out. It was locked into Earthquake and a took a chance with a confused Salamence to try and finish off the Aero, opting to lean into the typical Dusclops end game. However, Dusclops against a banded Armaldo, even intimidated is tough. I should have preserved Salamence, sacked the dusclops and went for the Salemence end game knowing Armaldo was band.

Overall, I love how this team functioned and am super proud of getting to 100 wins which was my original goal. I think this team could probably get a little farther, but I did get some good brightpowder rng so it may take a little bit to get back up there. Not sure. There is some slight dissynergy with the team due to Dusclops having to eat EQ damage when switching in for Salamence or just coming in after Salamence dies. Additionally if Metagross booms and Salamence isn't under Substitute it could put Dusclops in a tricky end game. Most 1v1's are fine, but it did burn me one run having Metagross randomly boom early. There are also some weird matchups that the lead can struggle with. Gyarados in general is tough because neither lead mon hits it well and it can either boost up or use Blizzard/Fire Blast if it's that set to hit me hard. Metagross will also generally EQ if it doesn't see a kill with its other moves and you can get in weird scenarios where metagross is trying to EQ under 3 flying pokemon.

I am still curious about other team ideas, especially perish song. And now that I know about the targeting bug I think some interesting teams could be structured around it. I'll probably go back to playing factory, but will probably come back to make an Open level team at some point. Dusclops might struggle there with leftovers being negated by Tyranitar's sand stream as well as strong crunches into it. So I may have to find another pokemon to be my staller.
 
Doubles Battle Palace Mega Post

I am happy to report a Doubles Battle Palace streak of 127 on emulator

View attachment 622717

I did alot of playtesting with many teams which I'll get into later and I did gen these mons. But here is the team:


View attachment 622576
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Hasty (58% / 37%/ 5%) | (88% / 6% / 6%)
Item: Brightpowder
140 HP / 212 SpA / 156 Speed
Dragon Claw, Flamethrower, Crunch, Substitute

View attachment 622575
Ability: Clear Body
Nature: Sassy (88% / 6%/ 6%) | (22% / 20% / 58%)
Item: Quick Claw
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Meteor Mash, Earthquake, Shadow Ball, Explosion

View attachment 622577
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Bashful (30% / 58%/ 12%) | (30% / 58% / 12%)
Item: Leftovers
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef
Seismic Toss, Double Team, Rest, Foresight

The %'s of the natures above show the chance of Attack, Defense or Support moves when Above 50% hp and below 50% hp respectively.

So when I heard about the Battle Palace, I was immediately intrigued about the concept. The ultimate teambuilding challenge. Figuring out what gives you the best odds and putting it to the test. The only real power you have is in switching. And in doubles switching usually puts you at a big disadvantage which makes this even more difficult. Although there were a few games in this run where switching was important (including the loss, a misplay).

From reading the posts about singles palace it seemed like substitute and boosting was the key. However with 2 opponents attacking all the time, setting up becomes difficult in doubles. I thought it was still worth exploring though since prior to actually playing it seemed like there were alot of "nothing" turns.

When I initially started teambuilding, I was trying to create teams that utilized all 3 move categories. I figured if I could get value out of every move rather than have a potential coin flip where I do nothing, that would help me in the long run. Obviously spamming attacking moves is good. Spamming defensive moves can be ok, because they include basically every boosting move - calm mind, bulk up, swords dance etc. Spamming Support moves is tricky though because there's alot of status moves, which don't do anything once they've hit, but the fact that curse was left in the support moves intrigued me being the only boosting move there.

Regarding the natures, I knew Hasty was common in singles and it makes sense, high chance to either sub or attack at high hp, and low hp very high chance to attack. So trying to utilize a support move would be a waste of a move slot. However, in doubles since you can have your sub broken and be attacked in the same turn, I wanted to explore the possibility of other natures/strategies as well. I was initially very intrigued with the concept of using a pokemon with a recovery move that has a low Defense % at high hp and a high Defense % at low hp. This included Jolly, Impish, Brave, and Bold. Also, because EQ is busted in doubles, I wanted to find a pokemon with EQ that could also use curse as it's supportive move, since that's a hard move category slot to fill. Sassy nature has the highest attack % at high hp, which I thought could be interesting with fake out in doubles as well.

I really never considered the targeting aspect of the natures, but this actually plays a major role in the team I ended on. Especially because of what I consider the doubles palace targeting bug which I'll explain later.

So some of the early Pokemon/Teams I tried included:

Latios, Metagross, Moltres
Idea: KO stuff with metagross EQ, Charm opposing EQ with Lati, but also stall with recover and eventually KO with Dclaw. Moltres would be EQ immune, neutral to ice and resist fire for metagross. But could also stall with morning sun and hit double teamers with aerial ace

Salamence, Metagross, Snorlax
Idea: Hasty Mence and Meta upfront to KO stuff/sub if needed. Snorlax could curse/rest and hopefully cleanup whenever lead dies. Thick fat to switch into fire/ice

Salamence, Swampert, Articuno
Idea: intimidate leads are great in doubles. Spam leer with salamence while swampert either spams EQ or rock slide and curse rests. Articuno to switch into grass/ice and immune to EQ.

Gengar, Metagross, Dusclops
Idea: Gengar hits hard and can maybe pick up a KO. Metagross has choice band Explosion. If Gengar can pick up a KO, then it's basically an insta win once Meta booms. If Gengar dies before meta moves I need a ghost in the back and dusclops can hopefully clean up. (ghosts especially a problem, but also any mon that uses protect, endure, fly, dig, dive, has brightpowder/focus band/ or KOs metagross before I can boom)

Tauros, Lapras, Dusclops
Idea: Choice band Tauros KOs something and intimidates opponents to let Lapras live. Gentle Lapras gets a perish song off which if Tauros gets a KO would be the last 2 opposing pokemon. As long as I can survive 3 turns without dusclops dying in the back I'll win (barring soundproof mons)

Of all of these teams, the Explosion team and Mence/Meta/Lax teams got the farthest, but I kept getting beat in the mid 60's. I felt I needed a redesign to push farther. Interestingly the current record was in the mid 60's so I guess that must just be when the going gets tough.

Ok so before I knew about this, I never really considered choosing natures or structuring my team based on the opposing natures and their targeting decisions. But it plays a major role. Natures in doubles palace determine whether you will target the pokemon with higher hp, lower hp, or a random target (this is in absolute hp amounts, not %). So for example, Modest nature will always target the pokemon with lower hp. Adamant nature will always target the pokemon with higher hp.

The bug is basically this: When Smart AI calculates which move will be best, it considers both targets and selects a move. THEN, the palace nature overrides the actual target to the opposing pokemon with higher/lower hp depending on the nature.

To give an example of how this bug can affect games in a major way, I'll give an example from my explosion team. My gengar has the moves Thunderbolt, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, and Substitute. The opposing team is Walrein/Salamence. This particular Walrein set had lower hp than Salamence. Based on Smart AI, my Gengar sees a guaranteed KO on salamence with Ice Punch. However since my Gengar is Hasty nature I'm forced to target the Walrein. But instead of using Thunderbolt into Walrein, Gengar locks into Ice Punch and hits the nice 4x resist thick fat walrein with ice punch. Now the Walrein has even lower hp. Metagross is incapable of moving this turn and Salamence/Walrein double up on Metagross and KO it. Turn 2 Gengar attacks the walrein with ice punch again, lowering the hp again. Because Gengar is Hasty and set to target the lower hp pokemon, it is basically locked into focusing down the Walrein with ice punch until it dies. If Gengar had a nature that was forced to target the higher hp pokemon this wouldn't be an issue, even if Walrein had higher HP than Salamence. Because eventually Ice Punch would get Walrein's hp lower than Salamence's and Gengar would switch targets. Anyways, hopefully you can see why this can be super impactful to doubles strategy.

Salamence was always on my mind in teambuilding for 2 reason - immune to EQ and intimidate. Although I liked the idea of aerial ace to hit double teamers, I settled on a special Salamence because I felt that having a physical attacker with EQ paired next to a special attacker would cover opposing leads better than 2 physical attackers. As a bonus, Salamence could intimidate them while basically being immune to intimidate. So with a special set I was for sure using dragon claw. Flamethrower would help hit grass/bug types that resist EQ as well as Skarmory. Since Dragon Fire covers alot of types neutrally I figured I'd throw on Crunch to hit all those psychic types that have ice coverage. And finally substitute to possibly avoid dying to ice moves while my EQ mon takes them out as well as just being a solid strategy to avoid status moves etc just like in singles. Also, using a hasty nature strategy I figured an intimidate pokemon would help offset that defense loss from the hasty nature.

For the EVs, I can't remember exactly why, but I wanted to hit 154 speed, which Hasty helped with thankfully. Then I initially maxed out special attack and put the rest in bulk. However, after figuring out the doubles targeting glitch, I realized I could optimize my team a little better but pulling some EVs out of special attack and putting them in HP. What this allowed Salamence to do is be 1 hp point higher than Metagross (who was max hp and wanted all it could get). The reason this is so key is because the majority of pokemon with Ice beam/Ice Punch have natures that target the lower hp pokemon. Once I discovered this, the plan was clear. Salamence/Metagross lead with Salamence at higher hp causes pokemon with ice moves to target Metagross, and to keep targeting Metagross as long as its hp stays below Salamence. Additionally, the sets with Overheat have a higher liklihood of targeting the higher hp pokemon which would be Salamence and save Metagross. The interesting thing here is that because Salamance has substitute sometimes it will lower itself below Metagross's hp without the opponents even attacking. But what this does is, if the opponents were set to target Salamence with an ice/dragon move, it'll break the sub. However Metagross now has higher hp, so the next turn they'll target Metagross. Or even if they were set to target the lower hp pokemon and attacked Metagross first, Turn 2 they'll target Salamence, but I'll have a sub up to save me. This small EV change made a huge difference to how the games played out. As an added bonus, previously I was at an odd hp amount. But now at 188 (1 above metagross) after 2 subs I would be at 50% hp which would change my chance of attacking from 58% to 88% with the hasty nature.

For the item, I figured brightpowder would help me dodge some ice moves. Also, I get alot more value out of a dodged move because of substitute. Which can then help me live another hit. I also considered, leftovers, but wanted to save that for a bulkier mon. Kings rock, but I didn't think the value add of flinches was very much, especially in palace where you are at the mercy of the odds and can sometimes be incapable of moving. Sitrus Berry, but didn't think the extra HP would make a huge difference. Charcoal/Dragon Fang but didn't calc to see if it would pick up any key KOs. Lum Berry, but substitute helps with avoiding status already.

Metagross was also always on my mind for teambuilding. Immunity to intimidate, access to EQ, and typing being the biggest factors, considering you can be intimidated by either of the opposing lead pokemon in doubles. My initial Salamence/Metagross team had a Hasty metagross with leftovers. However this was not ideal for a couple reasons. I wasted a moveslot on substitute. I wasn't attacking enough. I didn't particularly care about any specific speed tier and I was reducing my defense stat unnecessarily. I would also get blown up by fire moves. Changing to this slow, 4 attacking Sassy Metagross fixed all of that.

For Metagross's moves I was always going to use earthquake and meteor mash, it was just a matter of rounding out the last 2. For pokemon that were immune to earthquake, I figured meteor mash would do well. But having a 100% accurate move would be nice to get guaranteed KOs. At this point I knew I was using Dusclops in the back. Meaning that getting rid of ghost types with potential ghost STAB would be beneficial. So I chose Shadow Ball. It can take out those ghost types for Dusclops although Gengar is annoying regardless. Hits the Latis hard. Can also get the occasional spdef drop for Salamence to do more damage. For the last move I chose explosion. In testing with my explosion team, I realized how good explosion can be. Choice band explosion can KO so much, but even without choice band, so many pokemon will die, it's just a matter of picking up a KO and getting Metagross to use the move. This is where Sassy nature comes in handy. Above 50% hp, Metagross is very likely to attack and using Smart AI, it almost never clicks explosion at high hp. However, at low hp, Metagross has a measly 22% chance to use an attacking move. However, since I only have attacking moves, Metagross has a 50/50 chance to use a random move the other 78% of the time. This puts my total chance to attack at 22% + 38% = 60%. 1/4 of that 38% will be explosion, coupled with the fact that the AI is encouraged to use explosion at low hp, so a higher chance to use it during the 22% rolls, gives explosion a decent chance in the late game. This is also why dusclops is necessary. Salamence normally goes down before metagross which means it's usually Clops and Metagross in the end game and a random metagross boom usually seals it. So Dusclops is immune to Explosion, but additionally Salamence could be under substitute when it's used, or dodge with brightpowder.

For the EVs, Sassy boost special defense which is ideal for helping Metagross live fire moves. Out of curiosity I checked how Metagross faired with max HP and Max SpDef. Surprisingly, it lives a ton of fire moves. It only dies to Overheats from Arcanine-3 (43.8%), Blaziken-4 (25%), Flareon-4 (25%), Houndoom-4 (87.5%), Moltres-2 (75%), Moltres-4 (100%). And none of the earthquakes (even marowak) kill after intimidate. Flareon and Houndoom will die to EQ, and Blaziken/Arcanine get low and die to a double up. Moltres can sometimes be an issue, but if salamence stays alive it's usually fine. I figured I would be doubling up to take KOs anyways so I didn't care abou the lack of attack investment. EQ usually picks up alot of KOs when its super effective anyways.

For the item, I was already low on speed from the Sassy nature and it would be counterintuitive to invest in speed EVs so I was stuck being slow. However, this is where I think quick claw is beautiful. It makes up for the lack of speed. And even when it activates it's not always necessary, but getting to attack first does many things for you. Gives me a chance to crit before they attack, gives my shadow ball a chance to lower spdef for salamence before salamence attacks, removes any chances of flinching, lets me attack before getting statused (confuse ray, burn, freeze), lets me get KOs before allowing the opponent the opportunity to crit me, KO ice pokemon with meteor mash before they get the chance to attack salamence. I think Lum berry is also a strong contender. I can't be poisoned and although being burned is annoying, will o wisp is uncommon and fire moves will usually just 2HKO so oh well. But being Paralyzed, Frozen, Slept, or confused can be pretty annoying. Especially after changing Salamence's EVs so all the ice moves target metagross, the chances of being frozen are higher. My initial thought behind not using lum berry was that if opponents are incentivized to use their status moves because of their nature (i.e. spam twave, confuse ray etc). Then a lum berry only saves me one turn of that status and I'll get hit with it the next turn anyways. Quick Claw doesn't care about the speed drop from para either.

Oh man was I excited to use this Dusclops. Dusclops was also intriguing from the beginning due to its bulk and dual immunity. But once I tested out a few sets and landed on this one, I realized how weirdly good it is. So my initial plan was to have to hard hitters up front and a stally mon in the back to try to win stall wars if the upfront mons couldn't break them or were KO'd quickly due to crits etc. I had been looking at levitate/flying pokemon due to metagross wanting to use earthquake and having the option to switch in. But realistically, this team does not switch very much anyways and even if I do, the lack of attack investment in metagross actually helps dusclops to not take as much when I swap in. And once I've swapped in, metagross won't use EQ, unless it chooses it from a random roll. When thinking about stall wars or end games I was trying to find a strategy to cover everything. Admittedly, this set doesn't do that, but it gets pretty close. Some of the things I was trying to cover for was boosting wars (especially double team bc of infinite struggle wars), OHKO moves, Burn/Poison overriding Leftovers, Leech Seed, Struggle Wars, Perish Song, Explosion. This set covers all of these except for Leech Seed. I have won against some leech seeders, but it does not favor Dusclops. Though the low base hp of Dusclops helps there.

The moves. To start, with a stall war I did not want to die to toxic, poison, burn slowly chipping me. Additionally, I'm going to need some way to heal hp back so Rest made sense. However, the big drawback of rest is the 2 turns spent doing nothing. I could use a pokemon with amnesia, iron defense, or cosmic power to slow down the opponent's ability to chip me while I'm sleeping, however I am still vulnerable to crits or the other attack stat (i.e. physical if I use amnesia). Double team is almost always good though. Besides OHKO moves, aerial ace, magical leaf, and faint attack, which aren't super common and aerial ace could be intimidated by Salamence. The other beauty about Dusclops is Pressure. This helps against OHKO moves, because I'm immune to Horn Drill and Guillotine, and Sheer Cold/Fissure only get 3 chances to hit rather than 5 assuming they even have all of their PP left when Dusclops is sent out. So if I'm using double team and rest, there is certainly the worry of infinite struggle wars due to Gen3 struggle mechanics. I could use toxic or will-o-wisp myself, but that wouldn't work against poison/steel or fire types. I could use Curse, but I risk killing myself as a ghost type. I also want to have an attacking move that I can utilize for stall wars, but also be useful generally. And this is how i landed on the combo of Seismic Toss/Foresight. I had never even considered foresight initially, but learned that it causes your moves to ignore the opponent's evasion boosts it was a total game changer. This is how I would guarantee win struggle wars. If I get matched up against a +6 evasion pokemon with leftovers and I'm +6 evasion that would normally be an infinite battle, but since I have evasion and they don't (as long as I hit one of my 64 foresight pps) then I will win out, getting guaranteed struggle hits every turn. Not only does foresight allow me to win struggle wars, but it also allows me to hit ghost types with my seismic toss to finish them off before we get to struggle wars, as I could die before then. I considered night shade as well, but I'd have the same predicament with normal types, night shade has less pp, and normal types are more common so I can at least hit raw seismic tosses against them without having to set up a foresight first. Another cool bonus is that I can potentially foresight a ghost pokemon in a mid game scenario that Metagross then hits with an explosion. Seismic Toss is good against every pokemon and although it can't out damage recovery moves, it will eventually cause them to waste all of their recovery pp, and then seismic can clean up. Foresight also has the benefit of having a ton of PP causing the opponent to start struggling first, which also helps Dusclops win 1v1s if needed. Pressure on Dusclops not only helps with making them struggle first, but generally helps to save me by making them run out of PP for a move that might 3HKO me such as a strong Crunch. Some situations seem dire, but then they've run out of PP for their 1 good move and we're in the clear.

With this moveset, I was free to invest fully in bulk. Because of Salamence's intimidate and crunch being scarier than shadow ball, I decided to invest fully in HP and SpDef.

For the nature, I was torn between Calm or Bashful. Initially I had Bashful, but then after relooking at the natures it seemed like Calm was just a better version of bashful, due to the enhanced Special Defense, lowered attack which I don't need, and similar Attack, Defense, Support percentages and high and low hp. However, there is a HUGE drawback to Calm nature. Which I didn't realize until playtesting. The targeting. Bashful targets the lower hp pokemon, while Calm targets the higher HP pokemon. In a 1v1 stall war this doesn't matter. However, in a 1v2, which Dusclops can still generally win, it matters a ton. If metagross and Salamence both fall, and there's still 2 opposing pokemon alive, one at low hp and another at full hp, the fact that dusclops targets the higher hp pokemon will cause it to have to seismic toss the full hp pokemon down all the way until it dies before finishing off the low hp pokemon which could take 3 or 4 seismic tosses. Whereas Bashful targets the low hp pokemon, so once I get 1 seismic toss off, it's finished and we begin the true 1v1 stall war. This greatly improves Dusclops' odds of winning. The tradeoff of playing 1v1s with lower SpDef versus 1v2's with higher SpDef is well worth it. Additionally, Bashful has slightly better odds to use defensive moves at high hp (58% vs 50%) which means I'll be double teaming more often. And I'd much rather get at least 1 double team off before I start attacking as I may need it just to dodge a move or 2. There is also 1 more drawback to calm that may not seem like a drawback. And it's the lowered attack. I didn't think anything of it because of my moveset, until I got into an infinite battle with a Suicune who pressured all my seismic tosses out and I couldn't out damage leftovers with my lowered attack. That calm nature can be the difference between doing 1 more than leftys or 1 less than leftys with struggles. Bashful is nice because I have a good chance to start double teaming/resting when low, decent chance to throw off seismic tosses every now and then, and a low chance to foresight, but that's fine because typically I only need to click it once, unless they've started double teaming already.

I was always going to use leftovers on this set. Brightpowder was also a consideration, but once I get a double team or 2 I figured it would be moot. And salamence enjoys brightpowder.



First, thank you to anyone who actually ready through all this. I find Palace super interesting, but it seems to be the least liked by the general community haha.

Ok let's start with the loss. I was facing a Banded armaldo, which I could have damage calced to figure out. It was locked into Earthquake and a took a chance with a confused Salamence to try and finish off the Aero, opting to lean into the typical Dusclops end game. However, Dusclops against a banded Armaldo, even intimidated is tough. I should have preserved Salamence, sacked the dusclops and went for the Salemence end game knowing Armaldo was band.

Overall, I love how this team functioned and am super proud of getting to 100 wins which was my original goal. I think this team could probably get a little farther, but I did get some good brightpowder rng so it may take a little bit to get back up there. Not sure. There is some slight dissynergy with the team due to Dusclops having to eat EQ damage when switching in for Salamence or just coming in after Salamence dies. Additionally if Metagross booms and Salamence isn't under Substitute it could put Dusclops in a tricky end game. Most 1v1's are fine, but it did burn me one run having Metagross randomly boom early. There are also some weird matchups that the lead can struggle with. Gyarados in general is tough because neither lead mon hits it well and it can either boost up or use Blizzard/Fire Blast if it's that set to hit me hard. Metagross will also generally EQ if it doesn't see a kill with its other moves and you can get in weird scenarios where metagross is trying to EQ under 3 flying pokemon.

I am still curious about other team ideas, especially perish song. And now that I know about the targeting bug I think some interesting teams could be structured around it. I'll probably go back to playing factory, but will probably come back to make an Open level team at some point. Dusclops might struggle there with leftovers being negated by Tyranitar's sand stream as well as strong crunches into it. So I may have to find another pokemon to be my staller.
I don't have any interesting questions or insights, but I wanted to say that this is such an excellent write-up! It made me so much more interested in the Palace as a facility. The targeting oversight really spices things up by adding that little bit of extra player control.
 
Doubles Battle Palace Mega Post

I am happy to report a Doubles Battle Palace streak of 127 on emulator

View attachment 622717

I did alot of playtesting with many teams which I'll get into later and I did gen these mons. But here is the team:


View attachment 622576
Ability: Intimidate
Nature: Hasty (58% / 37%/ 5%) | (88% / 6% / 6%)
Item: Brightpowder
140 HP / 212 SpA / 156 Speed
Dragon Claw, Flamethrower, Crunch, Substitute

View attachment 622575
Ability: Clear Body
Nature: Sassy (88% / 6%/ 6%) | (22% / 20% / 58%)
Item: Quick Claw
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Meteor Mash, Earthquake, Shadow Ball, Explosion

View attachment 622577
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Bashful (30% / 58%/ 12%) | (30% / 58% / 12%)
Item: Leftovers
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef
Seismic Toss, Double Team, Rest, Foresight

The %'s of the natures above show the chance of Attack, Defense or Support moves when Above 50% hp and below 50% hp respectively.

So when I heard about the Battle Palace, I was immediately intrigued about the concept. The ultimate teambuilding challenge. Figuring out what gives you the best odds and putting it to the test. The only real power you have is in switching. And in doubles switching usually puts you at a big disadvantage which makes this even more difficult. Although there were a few games in this run where switching was important (including the loss, a misplay).

From reading the posts about singles palace it seemed like substitute and boosting was the key. However with 2 opponents attacking all the time, setting up becomes difficult in doubles. I thought it was still worth exploring though since prior to actually playing it seemed like there were alot of "nothing" turns.

When I initially started teambuilding, I was trying to create teams that utilized all 3 move categories. I figured if I could get value out of every move rather than have a potential coin flip where I do nothing, that would help me in the long run. Obviously spamming attacking moves is good. Spamming defensive moves can be ok, because they include basically every boosting move - calm mind, bulk up, swords dance etc. Spamming Support moves is tricky though because there's alot of status moves, which don't do anything once they've hit, but the fact that curse was left in the support moves intrigued me being the only boosting move there.

Regarding the natures, I knew Hasty was common in singles and it makes sense, high chance to either sub or attack at high hp, and low hp very high chance to attack. So trying to utilize a support move would be a waste of a move slot. However, in doubles since you can have your sub broken and be attacked in the same turn, I wanted to explore the possibility of other natures/strategies as well. I was initially very intrigued with the concept of using a pokemon with a recovery move that has a low Defense % at high hp and a high Defense % at low hp. This included Jolly, Impish, Brave, and Bold. Also, because EQ is busted in doubles, I wanted to find a pokemon with EQ that could also use curse as it's supportive move, since that's a hard move category slot to fill. Sassy nature has the highest attack % at high hp, which I thought could be interesting with fake out in doubles as well.

I really never considered the targeting aspect of the natures, but this actually plays a major role in the team I ended on. Especially because of what I consider the doubles palace targeting bug which I'll explain later.

So some of the early Pokemon/Teams I tried included:

Latios, Metagross, Moltres
Idea: KO stuff with metagross EQ, Charm opposing EQ with Lati, but also stall with recover and eventually KO with Dclaw. Moltres would be EQ immune, neutral to ice and resist fire for metagross. But could also stall with morning sun and hit double teamers with aerial ace

Salamence, Metagross, Snorlax
Idea: Hasty Mence and Meta upfront to KO stuff/sub if needed. Snorlax could curse/rest and hopefully cleanup whenever lead dies. Thick fat to switch into fire/ice

Salamence, Swampert, Articuno
Idea: intimidate leads are great in doubles. Spam leer with salamence while swampert either spams EQ or rock slide and curse rests. Articuno to switch into grass/ice and immune to EQ.

Gengar, Metagross, Dusclops
Idea: Gengar hits hard and can maybe pick up a KO. Metagross has choice band Explosion. If Gengar can pick up a KO, then it's basically an insta win once Meta booms. If Gengar dies before meta moves I need a ghost in the back and dusclops can hopefully clean up. (ghosts especially a problem, but also any mon that uses protect, endure, fly, dig, dive, has brightpowder/focus band/ or KOs metagross before I can boom)

Tauros, Lapras, Dusclops
Idea: Choice band Tauros KOs something and intimidates opponents to let Lapras live. Gentle Lapras gets a perish song off which if Tauros gets a KO would be the last 2 opposing pokemon. As long as I can survive 3 turns without dusclops dying in the back I'll win (barring soundproof mons)

Of all of these teams, the Explosion team and Mence/Meta/Lax teams got the farthest, but I kept getting beat in the mid 60's. I felt I needed a redesign to push farther. Interestingly the current record was in the mid 60's so I guess that must just be when the going gets tough.

Ok so before I knew about this, I never really considered choosing natures or structuring my team based on the opposing natures and their targeting decisions. But it plays a major role. Natures in doubles palace determine whether you will target the pokemon with higher hp, lower hp, or a random target (this is in absolute hp amounts, not %). So for example, Modest nature will always target the pokemon with lower hp. Adamant nature will always target the pokemon with higher hp.

The bug is basically this: When Smart AI calculates which move will be best, it considers both targets and selects a move. THEN, the palace nature overrides the actual target to the opposing pokemon with higher/lower hp depending on the nature.

To give an example of how this bug can affect games in a major way, I'll give an example from my explosion team. My gengar has the moves Thunderbolt, Ice Punch, Fire Punch, and Substitute. The opposing team is Walrein/Salamence. This particular Walrein set had lower hp than Salamence. Based on Smart AI, my Gengar sees a guaranteed KO on salamence with Ice Punch. However since my Gengar is Hasty nature I'm forced to target the Walrein. But instead of using Thunderbolt into Walrein, Gengar locks into Ice Punch and hits the nice 4x resist thick fat walrein with ice punch. Now the Walrein has even lower hp. Metagross is incapable of moving this turn and Salamence/Walrein double up on Metagross and KO it. Turn 2 Gengar attacks the walrein with ice punch again, lowering the hp again. Because Gengar is Hasty and set to target the lower hp pokemon, it is basically locked into focusing down the Walrein with ice punch until it dies. If Gengar had a nature that was forced to target the higher hp pokemon this wouldn't be an issue, even if Walrein had higher HP than Salamence. Because eventually Ice Punch would get Walrein's hp lower than Salamence's and Gengar would switch targets. Anyways, hopefully you can see why this can be super impactful to doubles strategy.

Salamence was always on my mind in teambuilding for 2 reason - immune to EQ and intimidate. Although I liked the idea of aerial ace to hit double teamers, I settled on a special Salamence because I felt that having a physical attacker with EQ paired next to a special attacker would cover opposing leads better than 2 physical attackers. As a bonus, Salamence could intimidate them while basically being immune to intimidate. So with a special set I was for sure using dragon claw. Flamethrower would help hit grass/bug types that resist EQ as well as Skarmory. Since Dragon Fire covers alot of types neutrally I figured I'd throw on Crunch to hit all those psychic types that have ice coverage. And finally substitute to possibly avoid dying to ice moves while my EQ mon takes them out as well as just being a solid strategy to avoid status moves etc just like in singles. Also, using a hasty nature strategy I figured an intimidate pokemon would help offset that defense loss from the hasty nature.

For the EVs, I can't remember exactly why, but I wanted to hit 154 speed, which Hasty helped with thankfully. Then I initially maxed out special attack and put the rest in bulk. However, after figuring out the doubles targeting glitch, I realized I could optimize my team a little better but pulling some EVs out of special attack and putting them in HP. What this allowed Salamence to do is be 1 hp point higher than Metagross (who was max hp and wanted all it could get). The reason this is so key is because the majority of pokemon with Ice beam/Ice Punch have natures that target the lower hp pokemon. Once I discovered this, the plan was clear. Salamence/Metagross lead with Salamence at higher hp causes pokemon with ice moves to target Metagross, and to keep targeting Metagross as long as its hp stays below Salamence. Additionally, the sets with Overheat have a higher liklihood of targeting the higher hp pokemon which would be Salamence and save Metagross. The interesting thing here is that because Salamance has substitute sometimes it will lower itself below Metagross's hp without the opponents even attacking. But what this does is, if the opponents were set to target Salamence with an ice/dragon move, it'll break the sub. However Metagross now has higher hp, so the next turn they'll target Metagross. Or even if they were set to target the lower hp pokemon and attacked Metagross first, Turn 2 they'll target Salamence, but I'll have a sub up to save me. This small EV change made a huge difference to how the games played out. As an added bonus, previously I was at an odd hp amount. But now at 188 (1 above metagross) after 2 subs I would be at 50% hp which would change my chance of attacking from 58% to 88% with the hasty nature.

For the item, I figured brightpowder would help me dodge some ice moves. Also, I get alot more value out of a dodged move because of substitute. Which can then help me live another hit. I also considered, leftovers, but wanted to save that for a bulkier mon. Kings rock, but I didn't think the value add of flinches was very much, especially in palace where you are at the mercy of the odds and can sometimes be incapable of moving. Sitrus Berry, but didn't think the extra HP would make a huge difference. Charcoal/Dragon Fang but didn't calc to see if it would pick up any key KOs. Lum Berry, but substitute helps with avoiding status already.

Metagross was also always on my mind for teambuilding. Immunity to intimidate, access to EQ, and typing being the biggest factors, considering you can be intimidated by either of the opposing lead pokemon in doubles. My initial Salamence/Metagross team had a Hasty metagross with leftovers. However this was not ideal for a couple reasons. I wasted a moveslot on substitute. I wasn't attacking enough. I didn't particularly care about any specific speed tier and I was reducing my defense stat unnecessarily. I would also get blown up by fire moves. Changing to this slow, 4 attacking Sassy Metagross fixed all of that.

For Metagross's moves I was always going to use earthquake and meteor mash, it was just a matter of rounding out the last 2. For pokemon that were immune to earthquake, I figured meteor mash would do well. But having a 100% accurate move would be nice to get guaranteed KOs. At this point I knew I was using Dusclops in the back. Meaning that getting rid of ghost types with potential ghost STAB would be beneficial. So I chose Shadow Ball. It can take out those ghost types for Dusclops although Gengar is annoying regardless. Hits the Latis hard. Can also get the occasional spdef drop for Salamence to do more damage. For the last move I chose explosion. In testing with my explosion team, I realized how good explosion can be. Choice band explosion can KO so much, but even without choice band, so many pokemon will die, it's just a matter of picking up a KO and getting Metagross to use the move. This is where Sassy nature comes in handy. Above 50% hp, Metagross is very likely to attack and using Smart AI, it almost never clicks explosion at high hp. However, at low hp, Metagross has a measly 22% chance to use an attacking move. However, since I only have attacking moves, Metagross has a 50/50 chance to use a random move the other 78% of the time. This puts my total chance to attack at 22% + 38% = 60%. 1/4 of that 38% will be explosion, coupled with the fact that the AI is encouraged to use explosion at low hp, so a higher chance to use it during the 22% rolls, gives explosion a decent chance in the late game. This is also why dusclops is necessary. Salamence normally goes down before metagross which means it's usually Clops and Metagross in the end game and a random metagross boom usually seals it. So Dusclops is immune to Explosion, but additionally Salamence could be under substitute when it's used, or dodge with brightpowder.

For the EVs, Sassy boost special defense which is ideal for helping Metagross live fire moves. Out of curiosity I checked how Metagross faired with max HP and Max SpDef. Surprisingly, it lives a ton of fire moves. It only dies to Overheats from Arcanine-3 (43.8%), Blaziken-4 (25%), Flareon-4 (25%), Houndoom-4 (87.5%), Moltres-2 (75%), Moltres-4 (100%). And none of the earthquakes (even marowak) kill after intimidate. Flareon and Houndoom will die to EQ, and Blaziken/Arcanine get low and die to a double up. Moltres can sometimes be an issue, but if salamence stays alive it's usually fine. I figured I would be doubling up to take KOs anyways so I didn't care abou the lack of attack investment. EQ usually picks up alot of KOs when its super effective anyways.

For the item, I was already low on speed from the Sassy nature and it would be counterintuitive to invest in speed EVs so I was stuck being slow. However, this is where I think quick claw is beautiful. It makes up for the lack of speed. And even when it activates it's not always necessary, but getting to attack first does many things for you. Gives me a chance to crit before they attack, gives my shadow ball a chance to lower spdef for salamence before salamence attacks, removes any chances of flinching, lets me attack before getting statused (confuse ray, burn, freeze), lets me get KOs before allowing the opponent the opportunity to crit me, KO ice pokemon with meteor mash before they get the chance to attack salamence. I think Lum berry is also a strong contender. I can't be poisoned and although being burned is annoying, will o wisp is uncommon and fire moves will usually just 2HKO so oh well. But being Paralyzed, Frozen, Slept, or confused can be pretty annoying. Especially after changing Salamence's EVs so all the ice moves target metagross, the chances of being frozen are higher. My initial thought behind not using lum berry was that if opponents are incentivized to use their status moves because of their nature (i.e. spam twave, confuse ray etc). Then a lum berry only saves me one turn of that status and I'll get hit with it the next turn anyways. Quick Claw doesn't care about the speed drop from para either.

Oh man was I excited to use this Dusclops. Dusclops was also intriguing from the beginning due to its bulk and dual immunity. But once I tested out a few sets and landed on this one, I realized how weirdly good it is. So my initial plan was to have to hard hitters up front and a stally mon in the back to try to win stall wars if the upfront mons couldn't break them or were KO'd quickly due to crits etc. I had been looking at levitate/flying pokemon due to metagross wanting to use earthquake and having the option to switch in. But realistically, this team does not switch very much anyways and even if I do, the lack of attack investment in metagross actually helps dusclops to not take as much when I swap in. And once I've swapped in, metagross won't use EQ, unless it chooses it from a random roll. When thinking about stall wars or end games I was trying to find a strategy to cover everything. Admittedly, this set doesn't do that, but it gets pretty close. Some of the things I was trying to cover for was boosting wars (especially double team bc of infinite struggle wars), OHKO moves, Burn/Poison overriding Leftovers, Leech Seed, Struggle Wars, Perish Song, Explosion. This set covers all of these except for Leech Seed. I have won against some leech seeders, but it does not favor Dusclops. Though the low base hp of Dusclops helps there.

The moves. To start, with a stall war I did not want to die to toxic, poison, burn slowly chipping me. Additionally, I'm going to need some way to heal hp back so Rest made sense. However, the big drawback of rest is the 2 turns spent doing nothing. I could use a pokemon with amnesia, iron defense, or cosmic power to slow down the opponent's ability to chip me while I'm sleeping, however I am still vulnerable to crits or the other attack stat (i.e. physical if I use amnesia). Double team is almost always good though. Besides OHKO moves, aerial ace, magical leaf, and faint attack, which aren't super common and aerial ace could be intimidated by Salamence. The other beauty about Dusclops is Pressure. This helps against OHKO moves, because I'm immune to Horn Drill and Guillotine, and Sheer Cold/Fissure only get 3 chances to hit rather than 5 assuming they even have all of their PP left when Dusclops is sent out. So if I'm using double team and rest, there is certainly the worry of infinite struggle wars due to Gen3 struggle mechanics. I could use toxic or will-o-wisp myself, but that wouldn't work against poison/steel or fire types. I could use Curse, but I risk killing myself as a ghost type. I also want to have an attacking move that I can utilize for stall wars, but also be useful generally. And this is how i landed on the combo of Seismic Toss/Foresight. I had never even considered foresight initially, but learned that it causes your moves to ignore the opponent's evasion boosts it was a total game changer. This is how I would guarantee win struggle wars. If I get matched up against a +6 evasion pokemon with leftovers and I'm +6 evasion that would normally be an infinite battle, but since I have evasion and they don't (as long as I hit one of my 64 foresight pps) then I will win out, getting guaranteed struggle hits every turn. Not only does foresight allow me to win struggle wars, but it also allows me to hit ghost types with my seismic toss to finish them off before we get to struggle wars, as I could die before then. I considered night shade as well, but I'd have the same predicament with normal types, night shade has less pp, and normal types are more common so I can at least hit raw seismic tosses against them without having to set up a foresight first. Another cool bonus is that I can potentially foresight a ghost pokemon in a mid game scenario that Metagross then hits with an explosion. Seismic Toss is good against every pokemon and although it can't out damage recovery moves, it will eventually cause them to waste all of their recovery pp, and then seismic can clean up. Foresight also has the benefit of having a ton of PP causing the opponent to start struggling first, which also helps Dusclops win 1v1s if needed. Pressure on Dusclops not only helps with making them struggle first, but generally helps to save me by making them run out of PP for a move that might 3HKO me such as a strong Crunch. Some situations seem dire, but then they've run out of PP for their 1 good move and we're in the clear.

With this moveset, I was free to invest fully in bulk. Because of Salamence's intimidate and crunch being scarier than shadow ball, I decided to invest fully in HP and SpDef.

For the nature, I was torn between Calm or Bashful. Initially I had Bashful, but then after relooking at the natures it seemed like Calm was just a better version of bashful, due to the enhanced Special Defense, lowered attack which I don't need, and similar Attack, Defense, Support percentages and high and low hp. However, there is a HUGE drawback to Calm nature. Which I didn't realize until playtesting. The targeting. Bashful targets the lower hp pokemon, while Calm targets the higher HP pokemon. In a 1v1 stall war this doesn't matter. However, in a 1v2, which Dusclops can still generally win, it matters a ton. If metagross and Salamence both fall, and there's still 2 opposing pokemon alive, one at low hp and another at full hp, the fact that dusclops targets the higher hp pokemon will cause it to have to seismic toss the full hp pokemon down all the way until it dies before finishing off the low hp pokemon which could take 3 or 4 seismic tosses. Whereas Bashful targets the low hp pokemon, so once I get 1 seismic toss off, it's finished and we begin the true 1v1 stall war. This greatly improves Dusclops' odds of winning. The tradeoff of playing 1v1s with lower SpDef versus 1v2's with higher SpDef is well worth it. Additionally, Bashful has slightly better odds to use defensive moves at high hp (58% vs 50%) which means I'll be double teaming more often. And I'd much rather get at least 1 double team off before I start attacking as I may need it just to dodge a move or 2. There is also 1 more drawback to calm that may not seem like a drawback. And it's the lowered attack. I didn't think anything of it because of my moveset, until I got into an infinite battle with a Suicune who pressured all my seismic tosses out and I couldn't out damage leftovers with my lowered attack. That calm nature can be the difference between doing 1 more than leftys or 1 less than leftys with struggles. Bashful is nice because I have a good chance to start double teaming/resting when low, decent chance to throw off seismic tosses every now and then, and a low chance to foresight, but that's fine because typically I only need to click it once, unless they've started double teaming already.

I was always going to use leftovers on this set. Brightpowder was also a consideration, but once I get a double team or 2 I figured it would be moot. And salamence enjoys brightpowder.



First, thank you to anyone who actually ready through all this. I find Palace super interesting, but it seems to be the least liked by the general community haha.

Ok let's start with the loss. I was facing a Banded armaldo, which I could have damage calced to figure out. It was locked into Earthquake and a took a chance with a confused Salamence to try and finish off the Aero, opting to lean into the typical Dusclops end game. However, Dusclops against a banded Armaldo, even intimidated is tough. I should have preserved Salamence, sacked the dusclops and went for the Salemence end game knowing Armaldo was band.

Overall, I love how this team functioned and am super proud of getting to 100 wins which was my original goal. I think this team could probably get a little farther, but I did get some good brightpowder rng so it may take a little bit to get back up there. Not sure. There is some slight dissynergy with the team due to Dusclops having to eat EQ damage when switching in for Salamence or just coming in after Salamence dies. Additionally if Metagross booms and Salamence isn't under Substitute it could put Dusclops in a tricky end game. Most 1v1's are fine, but it did burn me one run having Metagross randomly boom early. There are also some weird matchups that the lead can struggle with. Gyarados in general is tough because neither lead mon hits it well and it can either boost up or use Blizzard/Fire Blast if it's that set to hit me hard. Metagross will also generally EQ if it doesn't see a kill with its other moves and you can get in weird scenarios where metagross is trying to EQ under 3 flying pokemon.

I am still curious about other team ideas, especially perish song. And now that I know about the targeting bug I think some interesting teams could be structured around it. I'll probably go back to playing factory, but will probably come back to make an Open level team at some point. Dusclops might struggle there with leftovers being negated by Tyranitar's sand stream as well as strong crunches into it. So I may have to find another pokemon to be my staller.

Ah, I'm so happy to hear about how the targeting is applied after the move is selected. Because now there is actual planning that can be done on a big enough scale to have an effect. Love how complex palace doubles is, but it was looking like another situation where the format was just too restrictive. Nice work!
 
Ah, I'm so happy to hear about how the targeting is applied after the move is selected. Because now there is actual planning that can be done on a big enough scale to have an effect. Love how complex palace doubles is, but it was looking like another situation where the format was just too restrictive. Nice work!

I was definitely inspired by all of your in depth Palace posts on here. I think there’s probably some more optimal teams out there, I really only refined this specific one based on targeting. But I bet there’s some cool combos you could do with other resists/immunities as well, especially with say Gyarados and a ground type. Teams that enjoy switching around might be able to abuse this more as well. My team just didn’t switch a lot. I also created a google sheet to check trainer sets, targeting based on nature, and attack/defense/support/nothing percentages based on nature/hp. Which is really only useful if you want to switch, but still good to know. I’ll share once I refine it a little more
 
Hello :toast:

Here to report an ongoing emulator streak: 80 tournament wins on the Battle Dome!

Here's the team and strategy:

344.gif
381.gif
245.gif

344.png

Claydol @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
Stats: HP: 135 / ATK: 122 / DEF: 125 / SPA: 80 / SPD: 139 / SPE: 138
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Explosion

381.png

Latios @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
Stats: HP: 155 / ATK: 94 / DEF: 99 / SPA: 181 / SPD: 124 / SPE: 178
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Memento

245.png

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
Stats: HP: 204 / ATK: 84 / DEF: 135 / SPA: 105 / SPD: 138 / SPE: 143
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Substitute
- Protect
- Calm Mind
I wanted to make a team that took advantage of the limitations and quirks imposed by the Dome:
  1. Team preview. This is the defining trait of the Dome to me. This means you can optimize positioning from turn 1, as you not only know all of your opponent's mons, but also can rearrange your team as you'd like.
  2. Only 2 Pokémon per game. This means that any advantage you can build up will easily become unsurmountable. It also makes trade moves like Explosion all the more powerful.
For these reasons I wanted a team centered around an almost unstoppable Pokemon with two support leads I could pick and choose from, depending on the opponent's team. Based on prior experience in battle facilities I decided to center the team around Suicune. Latios felt like a natural partner, on one hand because it just stomps everything, and on the other hand because it learns Memento which is busted in this format. I picked Claydol as a last Pokemon because it learns a lot of support moves, has Explosion, and is a Ground type to further cover Suicune's Electric weakness.

The strategy is fairly simple:
  1. SubCune is ridiculously good and beats almost every Pokemon in the Dome 1 on 1. So you want to get it in a position where it can safely set up a Sub.
  2. Self-KO moves end the turn in gen 3. So that makes Memento the ultimate positioning move: it gets Suicune in front of a -2 Atk / -2 Def mon that hasn't had the opportunity to react. Suicune's Sub is surprisingly bulky even unboosted, as it can even take some -2 Thunderbolts.
  3. Claydol's Explosion can have a similar effect, although it'll usually KO the opponent so you gotta keep that in mind. Exploding can be used to remove a threat if the opponent has 1 threat and 2 Cune fodder mons. It's fairly risky though. Claydol's usually brought against Electric types, or in games where it can KO the first mon then explode on the second to seal the game.
There is a big volume of matches that Latios can just KO both of the opponent's mons, or as I mentioned games that Claydol can get a 2-for-1 so these aren't really hard matches. Hard matches are as follows:

134.gif
Water Absorb
131.gif

So these guys wall Suicune which is annoying. The good news is that Suicune walls them too. The strategy usually is to PP stall them with Suicune as the lead then pick them off with Latios once they're down to Struggle. One must be very careful around Vaporeon in particular as it can sponge 2 Latios Thunderbolts and 2hko back with Ice Beam. Lapras is insanely scary because of Horn Drill and Sheer Cold obviously. The other Lapras sets are easily PP stalled.

143.gif
Lax
143.gif

So this team doesn't really have a great lead into Lax. Usually my strategy is to Memento it with Latios immediately, but Quick Claw can make that dicey as it can get a Curse in before I Memento. Even when that's happened though, I set up a Sub and a CM with Cune then 3HKOed the Lax as it spammed Curse. I fear the day where an untimely Quick Claw happens though.

380.gif
Latis
381.gif

This team's plan into the Latis isn't great either, to be honest. My own Latios is faster so I try to lead it and 2HKO them with Ice Beam. I've been lucky enough not to get crit yet. If that happens, the plan is to hope the 2nd mon loses to Suicune hard lol

135.gif
Jolt
135.gif

Fuck this guy. If it's a lead, then it's time to pray it doesn't flinch through Claydol. Sitrus Berry has exactly one use on Claydol: giving you an extra life vs this guy, because it allows Dol to take an extra Bite. If it flinches 3 in a row and I'm forced to run Suicune as 2nd mon, the game's over though.

0Uou1AF.png

I'll post updates as the streak progresses :toast:
 
After stalking this thread for months and putting over 500 hours on my retail cartridge, I finally have some meaningful pictures to post for records.

First off, I hit 527 wins on my cartridge on battle tower in Set 50. I used Kommo-o 's amazing team of Latios, Steelix and Suicune- although mine did not have the pretty shiny colors and some of their IVs left much to be desired. I lost this record but im back up to the 200s now.

I also broke the current record for battle factory with 121 straight wins with rentals. As soon as i lost the record I moved on to platinum factory and I immediately missed emeralds lol (only place in Gen 4 battle frontier thats harder than gen 3).

Lastly, about a month ago I hit 315 floors cleared on pyramid using the previously successful team posted of Slaking, Salamence, and Blissey. Although I did swap mence out on certain floors depending on what the girl in the lobby told me to expect from the coming floor.

I'm lucky I have an IPS screen installed on this gameboy because otherwise my eyes would have melted trying to see on the darker screen. If I get a GBAaccelerator installed I might try to beat some of these records since it would speed up the gameplay/waiting, but otherwise I think I'm sitting on these.

Here are proofs:

Screenshot 2024-04-23 at 7.21.00 PM.png
Screenshot 2024-04-23 at 7.21.23 PM.png
Screenshot 2024-04-23 at 7.21.32 PM.png
 
Hello everyone! I hope you are doing well.
I have temporarily returned from semi-retirement to try to break my Battle Tower (doubles) record, as I felt my team had the potential to reach more than 83 wins.

Battle Tower Doubles. Win streak: 144. Open Level. Retail.
1679615559996.png

Goroka (Gyarados) @ Chesto Berry
Level 100 Stats: 360/383/194/135/231/227
Adamant Nature
- Hidden Power Flying 70
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance
- Rest

1679615570599.png

Drimoto (Latias) @ Leftovers
Level 100 Stats: 364/161/306/256/296/257
Bold Nature
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Helping Hand
- Recover

1679615602812.png

Big Bone (Marowak) @ Thick Club
Level 100 Stats: 283/284/255/115/195/167
Ability: Lightning Rod
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power Rock 70
- Protect
- Perish Song

1679615581608.png

Oniiros (Latios) @ Lum Berry
Level 100 Stats: 302/194/196/394/256/319
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Dragon Claw
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
The team is exactly the same one I had reviewed before, except now Latios has Ice Beam instead of Calm Mind:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...r-discussion-and-records.3648697/post-9554348
Proof:
ch.jpg



Kommo-o, I would be very grateful if you would change the text that says “Win here pls, (∞) - (Nothing here)” on the Leader Board for the Battle Palace Doubles Records, as my 62 win streak meets the necessary requirements: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...r-discussion-and-records.3648697/post-9587707. Also, I would like you to update my Battle Pyke's streak (341 rooms cleared, level 100, cartridge): https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...r-discussion-and-records.3648697/post-9554348
I thank you warmly for all the work involved in keeping this post going after so many years already.

And I also want to thank all users for sharing their records and analysis with others, I'm glad to see how the community continues to grow and more people are encouraged to play competitively this beautiful game that has changed the lives of many of us. Smell ya!
 
Happy to report a streak in Battle Factory Level 50 Doubles of 102 wins. Puts me in the 100 club and 1/4 of my way through my Factory goals.

I've done a writeup on my website as I dislike making and formatting forum posts. Also puts it in a nice place that I can attach recordings to as I go.

This run was done entirely within O'Hare International Airport and on a flight to San Francisco, meaning I had no access to calcs or other external resources that need the internet to work. I did have a copy of the Battle Factory spreadsheet made by Donly Phans downloaded. I also ran out of storage on my phone in the middle of Round 11, which wiped out the footage I recorded of 10 battles -- however, I remembered my Round 10 team and noted it down on the site.

Additionally, this was done on Delta emulator for iOS, which I'm pretty sure uses VBA as a core.
 
this is probably masochistic, but I'm thinking about starting an emerald run on cartridge with no RNG/glitches/cheating or external aids for the vanilla experience, also no trading as well (=no trade evos, multiple TMs, or RSFRLG mons). I probably won't bother with IV breeding either, just go for the correct nature (I'll prob soft reset for decent regis) and EV train. how doable is getting the gold symbols under these constraints? are there any optimal strats I should be aware of? any suggestions for planning?
 
this is probably masochistic, but I'm thinking about starting an emerald run on cartridge with no RNG/glitches/cheating or external aids for the vanilla experience, also no trading as well (=no trade evos, multiple TMs, or RSFRLG mons). I probably won't bother with IV breeding either, just go for the correct nature (I'll prob soft reset for decent regis) and EV train. how doable is getting the gold symbols under these constraints? are there any optimal strats I should be aware of? any suggestions for planning?
I don't have a whole lot of strategic insight, because when I did this I didn't look up any guides, but I have gotten all Gold Symbols on cartridge without a ton of breeding (though probably more than you're planning), so I'd definitely say it's possible. I did make use of the cloning glitch for convenience and resource duplication, though, mainly because I didn't wanna go for a 1% Pickup proc on a Level 91 mon to get a second EQ TM.

The Pokemon I used were Choice Band Metagross, DD Salamence, standard defensive Milotic, three-attacks+Rest Swampert, and four-attacks Starmie (my Lati was terrible and I didn't wanna reset for a good one). Natural Cure Starmie is excellent for the easier facilities (Dome, Pike) and the exploratory ones (Pike again, Pyramid), with the Pike in particular being perfectly tailored for it to shine. My Sassy Swampert was a late addition for when I finally tackled the Palace (the all-out offense of a Sassy nature is great for quickly clearing the earlier rounds), and it also helped a lot in the Tower, although I think I would've preferred Toxic over Surf if I hadn't used the TM already without cloning it.

I can't remember too much about the rest of it. I think the Arena was one that I was really worried about, but it ended up being pretty okay? Maybe I was just lucky. The sheer length of the Tower streak required for the Gold made it the hardest for me, and I think the lack of gimmicks makes it the least forgiving of suboptimal stats.

I used no trade-exclusive mons/moves/etc. The only thing I traded for was Rock Slide on Salamence, from FireRed's free tutor, because it was faster than grinding the BP for the Emerald tutor. My teams had solid stats, but based on this thread I could have been doing things far more optimally, so I'm sure you can conquer the Frontier with your restrictions. Good luck!
 
this is probably masochistic, but I'm thinking about starting an emerald run on cartridge with no RNG/glitches/cheating or external aids for the vanilla experience, also no trading as well (=no trade evos, multiple TMs, or RSFRLG mons). I probably won't bother with IV breeding either, just go for the correct nature (I'll prob soft reset for decent regis) and EV train. how doable is getting the gold symbols under these constraints? are there any optimal strats I should be aware of? any suggestions for planning?

Werster's Gold symbols speedrun is worth a look if you haven't seen it already - he assembles a team of three that's basically an "all-rounder" for the six main Frontier facilities (Latios, Swampert, Metagross) and doesn't need any input from external sources.

He does soft reset to get decent stats for his team, but I don't think you absolutely have to do this if you really don't want to - makes things tougher for sure, but those three Pokemon are good enough that they're not completely ruined by suboptimal IVs or natures. They're obviously highly unlikely to win you streaks of immense length but for just getting to the gold symbols I think it's probably entirely doable.
 
Werster is absolutely RNG-manipulating his team, see the paste. In particular, the mons he's using are all actually pretty good despite not being optimal—like, your chances hard rolling into spreads at least that good are basically worse than hard rolling a full odds shiny. There are optimizations you can make when you're not speedrunning (Mudkip and Beldum are breedable!), but ultimately the constraints of a speedrun are so different from "casual" play (it's not like resetting for a good roamer Latios is the expected vanilla experience) that I'm not sure you can too usefully generalize from it.

(Team is pretty wildly unreliable by standards around here too, see Exarion's deaths-to-symbol estimates and adjust that for making the team worse...)
 
What is the ruling on streaks gained using other people's teams? I've got a decent one going but I'm using someone else's team (potentially deleted, I can't seem to find it now). Is that legitimate? Or do I need to make my own team?
 
Hi folks. I'm here to report a streak of 104 in the Open Level Battle Factory Doubles on emulator.

I said in my last post my aim was to beat Aziz's 104 which I was considering the record. I guess I half-succeeded! Huge shout-out to everyone in LRXC's discord (The Bergg), I've been having an awesome time with Factory and it's mostly down to the other people invested in it.

I got most of the way through writing up a big explainer for the run but then I closed my browser window and don't have the energy to redo all of it now. I'll aim to come back and provide another post with details later.

From around battle 65 I started streaming the streak, so the last 40ish battles are available to watch on this youtube playlist as proof / if you're interested: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGqwWPRvANuovRSN1nZdE07-p2kOlyDwx

Overall I think Factory Doubles is an incredibly deep format. Each turn you can have up to 80 different options and can be facing up to 100 potential combination of opponent sets. There's definitely luck involved but I think there's a lot of skill in finding the 98% win chance play over the 90% win chance play and that those add up over the course of a decent length run. As part of this I've come to avoid some of the standard doubles plays such as Explosion + Ghost / Protect, Super-fast double-ups, Overheat or EQ and Fliers as they win on turn one 80% of the time but give you very little room to manoeuvre if things don't go your way.

I think I'm probably going to try some singles next as a change of pace and see where that takes me!

1717240717719.png
 
Hey ya'll, first time posting. I'm here to report a final streak of 62 in the Open Level Battle Arena on emulator. Was hoping to clear this round, but fell short on fight #63 to their last pokemon, Heracross. I was down to Suicune and knew I could 2HKO with Surf, but needed them to miss Megahorn twice (unlikely but my only hope). They outsped me so must've been Heracross-2, -3, or -4, because I would have outsped Hera-1. They landed the first Megahorn, then missed the second (only to tease me), and then hit the third to end my run. Either way, was happy to make it to the 60's.

I'm happy to provide more proof if needed, but here is a screenshot from the emulator.

1717536313160.png


I actually was playing on cartridge initially, but was getting sick of losing my run to some crazy RNG and then having to grind back the early rounds to get to where I was. Once I got my save file on emulator, it was nice to use the fast forward option to speed back through the early rounds. I hope this is allowed, and I've seen some streamers like LRXC use fast forward on their Battle Factory runs (huge fan of him btw), so I assumed it was ok.

I took inspiration from some other teams on here, but tried to add my own flair with a Suicine w/ HP Electric. Maybe I overthought it, but it came in handy when I was down to Suicune and was up against Water mons like Starmie and Slowbro. Sadly didn't get to utilize it much, though. Initially had Substitute on there, but it came to bite me when I only had Surf / Ice Beam to work with, so I wanted to add more coverage.

Team is here: https://pokepast.es/faa200fb003f70b4

Latios @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Dragon Claw
- Thunderbolt
- Surf

Snorlax (M) @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 232 HP / 252 Def / 20 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Yawn
- Earthquake
- Shadow Ball
- Rest

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 236 HP / 146 SpA / 128 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 14 Atk / 30 Def / 30 Spe
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Hidden Power [Electric]

It actually took me a while to even get to the Gold symbol fight, but I lost to some hilarious RNG along the way. Some that came to mind are:
  • Latios Bright Powder Psychic miss on Heracross, which then proceeds to sweep my team (maybe not the craziest RNG, but this was one of my first run killers on a long run and back when I was playing on cartridge, so that's why it probably stayed in my memory)
  • Dewgong hitting 3 Sheer Colds in a row, with 1 being a Sleep Talk'd (LOL). Latios thunderbolted which is a 2HKO, Dewgoing used Sheer Cold. Snorlax comes out next. I probably should have EQ'd, but for some reason I thought to Yawn. Dewgong hits another Sheer Cold and falls asleep. Suicune comes out. This is back when I had Substitute in the moveset. I subbed with hopes to Calm Mind and then Surf and win on judge decision, but it Sleep Talk'd a Sheer Cold which broke the Sub. Then I don't remember what it used but I think I either tied or lost on judge decision. Either way, run over.
  • This last one was a killer because I believe my run was in the 40s or 50s. We were both down to our last pokemon, their Alakazam and my Suicune. I knew I could 2HKO with Surf. I Surfed once, then Surfed again which thought secured the W, but it Focus Banded to stay at 1HP, and then on turn 3 I Surfed again, and it Focus Banded AGAIN. Judge decision 3-3 and I lose the run.
Overall, probably wasted a ton of my time, but it was a super fun grind especially once I got in the later rounds and the pressure was on. I actually hadn't touched my Emerald game or played Battle Frontier in over a decade, at least. Several months ago the YouTube algorithm blessed me with LRXC's Battle Factory video which sparked a whole bunch of nostalgia for me. Emerald has always been my favorite game, and I never even came close to getting all the symbols back then. After a while of watching his streams, I decided to dig through storage and find my old cartridge. I found a hilarious Battle Record video of me winning the Battle Palace Silver with my lvl 96 Shiny (legit) Kingdra w/ Hyper Beam, an under leveled Latios, and a Blaziken. I can vaguely even remember that fight, probably close to 20 years ago at this point. I can post that someday if anyone is interested. Maybe I will try to get past my record of 62 wins someday, but for now I need a break :). At some point I'd like to work my way to get all Gold symbols, and perhaps some big streaks along the way. Cheers!
 
Hi again! I just wanted to share with you all my recently finished Battle Pyramid map, based on Golden Blissey's research and my own observations. It shows all the possible locations of items and trainers (and the directions in which they may be facing at any given time).
Also, I got around to mapping out the Battle Pyramid. I have only done this through observations and exploring while playing the game, and haven't look at the game code or anything under the hood.
From what I can tell, each floor is a 32 x 32 tile room divided into 16 sections of size 8 x 8 tiles (see below). The layout for each of the 16 sections is randomly selected from the list of possible 8 x 8 sections (see below). When you enter a floor, you enter on the tile where the warp tile for that section would be. The exit is in the same location for each the 16 possible sections, which is indicated by the blue tile below.
9B4UNutm.png
t6InQOf.png
76GfJke.png
jRkD34V.png
MwOkj78.png

SwYnQwY.png
HMeypjB.png
catuUQs.png
SlMMI1y.png

VfLn8tR.png
DzNa24w.png
rJ9wcs8.png
6swJETE.png

CltMxk0.png
8fEvAlS.png
ezQ4b7F.png
RuFrAN6.png
So how is this useful? By knowing the possible locations of the exit warp, you know where the exit could be once you figure out what section you are in.
Next I want to add possible Trainer and item locations, I just need to find an appropriate way to represent either in AdvanceMap and still be able to export the map image.

Please don't hesitate to let me know if anyone has any questions concerning my Battle Pyramid reserach :)
Pyramid Floors Map 2.png

Enjoy your battle quest!

Kommo-o maybe you can add this map to the "Forum Resources" section :D
 

Attachments

  • Pyramid Floors Map 2.png
    Pyramid Floors Map 2.png
    75.8 KB · Views: 29
Last edited:
Tried my hand at the Battle Tower and reporting a final streak of 76 in the Open Level Battle Tower on emulator.

1717605129288.png


Similar team to my Battle Arena run. Minor change to Latios with swapping out Surf for Calm Mind. Then switched out Snorlax for Tyranitar. Wanted to keep rolling with my HP Electric Suicune. I actually started with Snorlax on my team, thought it could be advantageous to Yawn then switch to Lati or Sui to Calm Mind up, but once I got stalled out by a Chansey I knew I needed a strong mon with a fighting move like T-tar.

Latios @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Dragon Claw
- Thunderbolt
- Calm Mind

Tyranitar (M) @ Liechi Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 180 Atk / 128 Def / 200 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Hidden Power [Rock]
- Earthquake
- Brick Break

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 236 HP / 146 SpA / 128 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 14 Atk / 30 Def / 30 Spe
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Just like in my Battle Arena run, lost my streak on the 7th fight. This time on battle #76. Their first pokemon out was Medicham. I stayed in with Latios to Calm Mind + Psychic for the KO, but in hindsight I should have switched to Suicune. Kicking myself for this. Turned out to be a Medicham-4 which smacked me with a Shadow Ball and got me down to < 5% HP. Lesson learned to scout all the move sets, but I was just a bit lazy here and wanted to keep on rolling. Next mon out was Whiscash. I stayed in with Latios to chip, and it finished me off with a Surf. I thought it was all good and switched into Suicune to Calm Mind up and then Surf, but turned out to be Whiscash-3 which hit immediately hit with me a Fissure :( Tyranitar was my only hope, but I knew it was dire because Whis can 2HKO me with Surf. I d-danced once and it Surfed me. Only hope now was a crit roll with EQ, but of course did not get it. Run over.

Overall took a few attempts to get to the Gold fight, but went much smoother than Battle Arena. Battle Arena you can get wrecked with minor RNG like missing attacks or tieing/losing on judge decision. Battle Tower was much more forgiving, and also more strategizing with being able to switch out Pokémon which I really enjoyed. I might try another few runs, but then think I may switch to another building. Working my way to getting Gold in all facilities, while also hoping to get a big streak along the way. Saving Battle Factory for last, because it's my favorite but also know it will probably be the longest grind. Not sure how active this thread even is, but at the very least I'm enjoying the Frontier and being able to write-up my runs. I was never the biggest pokemon fan for the story, but loved battling like in the Battle Frontier or Online Battles (back when I did that in DPP long time ago). It's like chess on steroids.
 
Hello everybody! I've been lurking here for years, maybe made a post or two but mainly just been in the discord. I did my emerald gold trainer card about 2 years ago and I get the itch to come back and try out some facilities about once a year. Well this year I was looking at the leaderboards and the palace streaks were looking a bit...underdeveloped. The third place team is using hidden power magneton which I think is categorically incorrect (hidden power will never be called on purpose by the AI) and in general people hate the palace due to the much higher RNG variation. No one likes missing 3 attacks on a brightpowder mon in regular battles...but imagine your final mon alive is milotic into a steelix and you almost lose because the milotic just clicks toxic 6 times in a row....yeah that's happened to me. Anyway here's my team and streak:

https://pokepast.es/f9e1f6a5cc4d2cc0
streak.png


Tauros @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Body Slam
- Earthquake

Classic hasty band lead so you know what you're locked into and have 58% to select the best attack and a 50/50 to attack even if you don't hit the attacking move choice. I decided on tauros over slaking due to truant feeling terrible in the palace when you're already fighting an uphill battle to even get attacks off sometimes and intimidate being easily one of the best abilities in the game. There isn't often that tauros feels underpowered, but one thing I am going to try out is double edge over body slam. At first I was afraid the recoil would have tauros dying too often, but after some discussion in discord I think the recoil bringing tauros under 50% hp more often will be very valuable, not to mention the nearly 50% power increase.

252 attack on the bander, obviously. 220 speed EVs to hit 173 speed (252 EVs gets to 178 stat but there are no mons you are outspeeding from 173 to 178) and then rest dumped in HP. Pretty standard nothing crazy here.

Milotic (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
Level: 50
EVs: 196 HP / 252 Def / 20 SpA / 6 SpD / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Recover

The backbone of the team and an incredible pokemon in the palace. It often just wins matchups it has no right winning (it has 1v1'd raikou multiple times in my attempts) at the cost of making you tear your hair out when it clicks toxic over and over into a steel type you could oneshot with surf. Bold nature is something I am going to look at a bit (maybe impish could be better but the -spa hurts) but is chosen for the def boost, good mixed percentages to attack or toxic at high hp as well as high chance to recover when below 50% hp. This mon is quite similar to suicune but I think the lack of direct, non-drawbacked recovery on suicune makes it inferior to milotic.

The EVs here could be overdesigned for sure, but the idea was max out defense, 36 speed EVs to hit 106 speed which is a significant benchmark in the frontier, outrunning neutral, non-invested base 85s, 20 spa gets milotic enough damage on a surf to only have 1 roll that doesn't kill the non-hp invested marowaks, max out defense, max out HP then dump in spdef as the last 6 evs are wasted if invested to HP.

Zapdos @ Lum Berry
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 36 SpA / 228 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Drill Peck
- Substitute
- Toxic

A pokemon that seems overlooked in the palace. Mixed attacking is surprisingly useful and zapdos has the stats to make it work. Sub can get it out of some tough spots and often allows zap to run over a team once it gets behind one. This zap even 1v1'd a golem once (the focus punch one so i got pretty lucky it didn't double team a million times) without using toxic. Zapdos can dish out serious damage into the most threatening class in gen 3...the bulky waters and is also great for coming in on ghost and grass types and lum lets it very often get a sub up as the grass types just keep spamming statuses or are unable to break it with one attack. There is a surprisingly large number of pokemon that really have no chance against zapdos if it gets behind a sub, and genderless to avoid attract shenanigans is great. Originally, I did not include toxic on the zapdos but after some discussion in the discord I figured it may as well have it. Hasty only has a 5% chance >50% and 6% <50% to click it so its not going to affect the battle a majority of the time. It came in clutch on endure hera once, and in general endure mons can be pretty threatening to the team.

228 speed to outrun invested neutral base 110s (163 stat), 244 HP to hit a mod4 number on the hp stat (196) which allows zapdos to be in the <50% range after the second sub, upping the attack percentage to 88%, and enough special attack to very very nearly guarantee a 2hko on all bulky waters with tbolt (there is 1 roll on calm lapras that doesn't 2hko and suicune with leftovers will also survive)

36 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 170 HP / 170+ SpD Lapras: 112-132 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (112, 113, 114, 116, 117, 118, 120, 121, 122, 124, 125, 126, 128, 129, 130, 132)



I lost to some bad playing on Triathelete Reena. First out was her walrein (that I didn't know could only be set1, so no OHKO spamming) and my tauros missed the turn one attacking roll (incapable of moving) and got yawned. I swapped to zapdos as having milotic in against an OHKO spammer is NEVER advised (milotic takes many turns to kill most mons, so you're just racking up ohko chances) which was a mistake as this walrein could not use an ohko move. Anyway zap takes a blizzard and next turn tbolts to drop rein to ~33% hp as zap gets blizzard'd again. Tauros comes in and takes 2 slams to kill walrein but luckily it hailed instead of attacking. Next is hypno1 and my tauros is incapable of moving again (88% chance this time) and dies to hypno. Milo comes in and deals with hypno but gets paralyzed in the process. Final mon is meganium1 which isn't great but definitely doable. Milo normally can outspeed and lives one solarbeam, but the paralysis means no outspeeding and the odds of winning are very low. Meganium gets off 2 solar beams before milo can take it out and I've lost at 140 wins. Bummer...milo definitely could have clutched it up or tauros could have not been so useless or walrein could have missed one of those blizzards, but you take what you can get. Lesson learned is its time to start using trainer names to verify possible sets instead of just the pokemons moves in battle.


Overall, the team feels quite strong. The strengths and weakness of each mon are well defined and they each have clear roles between fragging tauros, subbing zapdos, and stalling milotic. Huge thanks to magpie in the discord for letting me bounce movesets and ev spreads off them. Very valuable input for the spreads and movesets, and also clearing up a few palace mechanics I did not know about. I want to end with a few palace thoughts and tips for future players.

The palace is not like any other facility. You can win or lose into literally any matchup due to the RNG selection, but in general it feels like this is on your side. The regular trainers (i.e. not palace maven Spenser) do not have "correct" natures for the way the AI selects moves. One pokemon that looks like it would be INCREDIBLY threatening to this team is any of the modest gengars running around with boltbeam (or punchpunch) coverage. On paper, tauros literally cant hit it and it does good damge to both milo and zapdos. However, in reality this pokemon has never come close to killing any of my team as the modest nature means it will only attack ~35% of the time at both above and below 50% hp and zapdos almost always ends up behind a sub infront of it. This type of mismatch is incredibly common and can allow you to fraud your way out of bad situations pretty often (need I mention again my milotic clutching up 1v1 against thunder raikou in the rain).

Finally, hidden power and return/frustration are bugged (likely due to the nature of the damage being dependent on outside factors) and will never be called by the regular move AI. The only way to use these moves is if you roll a move type that you do not have (i.e. support or defensive on my tauros) and then succeed the 50/50 move not move, then the random selection from all your moves happens to hit the hidden power. If this wasn't the case I think I would include HP ghost on my tauros specifically for gengar and misdreveaus and HP grass on zap over toxic for water/grounds like swamp and whiscash, but it wouldn't be useful as it would never be selected purposefully in an advantageous position.

I've recorded all my battles from 63 all the way to the 140 loss if anyone is interested. I fully believe this team can set the record so keep your eyes out for my future post!!



EDIT here is the youtube link:
 
Last edited:
Hello! I wanted to share my record on the battle dome with 17 tournament. I know its nothing special in this place since you are all pro, but for me its kinda good. I thought I could have gone way farer, cause I never had problems or close calls but thats the frontier for you. You can survive legendaries and OHKO moves and than loose to a fat blissey. So, I won the gold against Tucker and then I completely forgot about it. I saw the leader board for the dome and decided to try reach a 20 tournament win, since I was already with a current streak of 10. I didnt reach my object and I am pissed but I wont try it again, after playing with an emulator, using the original cartridge in retail its like moving slow as a snail in the back of a sloth. It fucking sucks, I could almost feel my hair growing. The game is in italian, so if you are reading my team and you feel like having a stroke its cause it isnt written in english, sorry.

So anyway the team is again the Latios bodyguard, same one that I used on the tower streak of 111

https://pokepast.es/6265135ce0afb14d

Slaking is good in the dome cause you basically always kill the first enemy, than switch, and if necessary come out again to clean the house.
I always used him as lead, and than latios or metagross based on the trainers threats. If there is fire or earthqauke users I choose Latios, unbreakable wall and ice beamer, than metagross is the answer. I discovered in a shocking way that in case of explosion and death of both teams, they give you the win, I think its cause you are the reigning champion but I am not sure. It happened when a metagross quick clawed against my slaking as soon as I pressed earthquake to obliterate him. Some kind of referee came and gave the win to me. I was sweating a little but that never happened again. So I am winning without problems, the 20 win mark in mind, and I start the 18th tournament with a light spirit and hope in my hearth. How foolish of me. First round there is a fucking triathlete with blissey, blaziken and victreebel. Triathlete trainers cannot be strong and experienced. They dont have the fucking time to train their pokemon to perfection. They have to train theirself first right? They have a routine to follow of swimming, cycling, and running. They also must have a job, so when do they find the time to train perfect pokemons and even compete at pro level in the frontier? They just cant. Thats why the only trainers I respect are the cool trainer, they can steal your pokemon and your girlfriend, dragon tamers, they are fucking metal, and the experts. Thats it. Those 3 are the scariest and most respected categories. The other trainers are a bunch of wimpy child, boy scout, campers, swimmers, hikers, collectors and emo weird creatures. So when I saw I was up against a triathlete I was smiling, cause his team was a bunch of fucking loser, the only one that pissed me off was blissey, cause I cant kill it with slaking, also it has focus band and counter so I could risk losing my lead. My strategy is, slaking first, if he send out blaziken or victreebel I obliterate them with aerial ace, best scenario, than switch to metagross and explode in the face of that mass of fat and pink grease that is blissey. I am not fat shaming her, I just hate her with my guts. The battle start, slaking and of course he send out blissey first. Not good. I switch to metagross, loosing momentum already, and with the threat of counter lurking, I decide to explode and be done with it. Blissey take the blast and of course activate focus band. Fuck her. Slaking come out again, I must use aerial ace, so the next pokemon will die instantely, victreebel and blaziken are basically in the corner watching blissey in the ring and praying that their turn will never come, they are shitting themselves I know that. Slaking is ready to kill, blood in his eyes, he lives and breathe for the thrill of battle. In front of him a fat white and pink lady with 1hp. Aerial ace land in her face with the power of choice band behind it. And of course focus band activate again. I am losing my shit. Now slaking have to attack after waiting a turn. Blissey start to regain health with softboiled, its Blissey 4 and I am sweating, cause she has calm mind and can set up while I aerial ace after every other round. The situation look bad, but than, like a deux ex machina, an aerial ace crit come from nowhere. Her health start going down and down, but it stops again, thanks to a third activation of focus band. I stare at the screen with a lifeless gaze, wondering what have I done wrong to deserve this. Than blissey regain her health, get herself a fresh couple of calm mind and than put me out of my misery with ice beam. I am almost relieved. The hate was consuming me, the only way to process this loss is to vent about it in this smogon site. Now I can put this game to rest. The next time that I am happy and I want to feel bad about myself I will play it again. In conclusion, I lost in the first round, I checked the battle tree and the triathlete lost instantly in the next round, so he was really a sucker as I thought. Could have I done something different? I really dont know, metagross and slaking were the right choice, latios couldnt have helped me, I was just unlucky. That s all. My streak ended at 17 tournament win, with a bad aftertaste in my mouth and a sick feeling in my stomach. I thought writing it down could calm me a little but now I think I am still pissed so I should go out and scream and punch something. Thanks and cheers to anyone. Despite my delusion this game will always be the best. If you are Blissey 4 and you are reading this post, I hope you choke, you fat ass.
 

Attachments

  • 20240612_141725.jpg
    20240612_141725.jpg
    1.7 MB · Views: 39
  • 20240612_141755.jpg
    20240612_141755.jpg
    1.9 MB · Views: 45
  • 20240612_141821.jpg
    20240612_141821.jpg
    2 MB · Views: 50
  • 1718200952764.jpeg
    1718200952764.jpeg
    1.9 MB · Views: 48
Hello! I wanted to share my record on the battle dome with 17 tournament. I know its nothing special in this place since you are all pro, but for me its kinda good. I thought I could have gone way farer, cause I never had problems or close calls but thats the frontier for you. You can survive legendaries and OHKO moves and than loose to a fat blissey. So, I won the gold against Tucker and then I completely forgot about it. I saw the leader board for the dome and decided to try reach a 20 tournament win, since I was already with a current streak of 10. I didnt reach my object and I am pissed but I wont try it again, after playing with an emulator, using the original cartridge in retail its like moving slow as a snail in the back of a sloth. It fucking sucks, I could almost feel my hair growing. The game is in italian, so if you are reading my team and you feel like having a stroke its cause it isnt written in english, sorry.

So anyway the team is again the Latios bodyguard, same one that I used on the tower streak of 111

https://pokepast.es/6265135ce0afb14d

Slaking is good in the dome cause you basically always kill the first enemy, than switch, and if necessary come out again to clean the house.
I always used him as lead, and than latios or metagross based on the trainers threats. If there is fire or earthqauke users I choose Latios, unbreakable wall and ice beamer, than metagross is the answer. I discovered in a shocking way that in case of explosion and death of both teams, they give you the win, I think its cause you are the reigning champion but I am not sure. It happened when a metagross quick clawed against my slaking as soon as I pressed earthquake to obliterate him. Some kind of referee came and gave the win to me. I was sweating a little but that never happened again. So I am winning without problems, the 20 win mark in mind, and I start the 18th tournament with a light spirit and hope in my hearth. How foolish of me. First round there is a fucking triathlete with blissey, blaziken and victreebel. Triathlete trainers cannot be strong and experienced. They dont have the fucking time to train their pokemon to perfection. They have to train theirself first right? They have a routine to follow of swimming, cycling, and running. They also must have a job, so when do they find the time to train perfect pokemons and even compete at pro level in the frontier? They just cant. Thats why the only trainers I respect are the cool trainer, they can steal your pokemon and your girlfriend, dragon tamers, they are fucking metal, and the experts. Thats it. Those 3 are the scariest and most respected categories. The other trainers are a bunch of wimpy child, boy scout, campers, swimmers, hikers, collectors and emo weird creatures. So when I saw I was up against a triathlete I was smiling, cause his team was a bunch of fucking loser, the only one that pissed me off was blissey, cause I cant kill it with slaking, also it has focus band and counter so I could risk losing my lead. My strategy is, slaking first, if he send out blaziken or victreebel I obliterate them with aerial ace, best scenario, than switch to metagross and explode in the face of that mass of fat and pink grease that is blissey. I am not fat shaming her, I just hate her with my guts. The battle start, slaking and of course he send out blissey first. Not good. I switch to metagross, loosing momentum already, and with the threat of counter lurking, I decide to explode and be done with it. Blissey take the blast and of course activate focus band. Fuck her. Slaking come out again, I must use aerial ace, so the next pokemon will die instantely, victreebel and blaziken are basically in the corner watching blissey in the ring and praying that their turn will never come, they are shitting themselves I know that. Slaking is ready to kill, blood in his eyes, he lives and breathe for the thrill of battle. In front of him a fat white and pink lady with 1hp. Aerial ace land in her face with the power of choice band behind it. And of course focus band activate again. I am losing my shit. Now slaking have to attack after waiting a turn. Blissey start to regain health with softboiled, its Blissey 4 and I am sweating, cause she has calm mind and can set up while I aerial ace after every other round. The situation look bad, but than, like a deux ex machina, an aerial ace crit come from nowhere. Her health start going down and down, but it stops again, thanks to a third activation of focus band. I stare at the screen with a lifeless gaze, wondering what have I done wrong to deserve this. Than blissey regain her health, get herself a fresh couple of calm mind and than put me out of my misery with ice beam. I am almost relieved. The hate was consuming me, the only way to process this loss is to vent about it in this smogon site. Now I can put this game to rest. The next time that I am happy and I want to feel bad about myself I will play it again. In conclusion, I lost in the first round, I checked the battle tree and the triathlete lost instantly in the next round, so he was really a sucker as I thought. Could have I done something different? I really dont know, metagross and slaking were the right choice, latios couldnt have helped me, I was just unlucky. That s all. My streak ended at 17 tournament win, with a bad aftertaste in my mouth and a sick feeling in my stomach. I thought writing it down could calm me a little but now I think I am still pissed so I should go out and scream and punch something. Thanks and cheers to anyone. Despite my delusion this game will always be the best. If you are Blissey 4 and you are reading this post, I hope you choke, you fat ass.

Good writeup but as a gentle suggestion, please use the enter key a little more often
 
Back
Top