Gen III Battle Frontier Discussion and Records

[Kommo-o]

Thanks for your kind words Kommo-o! Do you have any source on the hidden power thing? I'm a bit skeptical about it because I have seen Raikou use HP Grass on a Swampert. In any case, I think I'll switch Hidden Power out for Thunder Wave because then Raikou will never waste any turns, and it's very difficult to acquire a Raikou with good IVs and a strong Hidden Power. I was originally tipped off to the Hasty nature by the fact that 2 of Spenser's 3 Pokemon are Hasty, and surely the person who understands the facility best is the one who designed it!

I don't really have any proof but based on experience and from what I've been told, the AI looks at Hidden Power like if it was a Normal type move since the game codes it as such (the type is internal data the AI does not have access to), so chances are that since Raikou does not have any other attacks to damage Swampert, the AI might have resourced to the "Normal" type Hidden Power in order to damage it. I played with HP Ice before and the AI never chose the move against x4 targets despite Raikou being able to OHKO them. I could be wrong with HP Grass though, since you know your own team better than me after all.

 

[Kommo-o]

It's been a while since I published something but so far I am really excited for a few stuff. Despite Sword & Shield's Battle facility being nothing more but a sheer cold disappointment, the new games still look fun to play. Since streak numbers are no longer recorded in Gen 8, I can still focus on grinding with my ChompFini team in Gen 7 when I get back into it and my Gen 3 team. There's plenty of stuff I want to share, so here it goes:

• If things go right, my retail cartridge which will contain all of my RNG'd Pokemon on Gen 3 will get mailed soon on this week-end. Once the cartridge is here, I will finally start on my streaks. Take into account that I don't do this for the sake of validation since I personally believe that people shouldn't be risking their money trying to buy a cartridge only for their streaks to be properly recognized in fear of retaliation for doing it on an emulator. We know that emulators are a controversial topic and my intention is not to encourage their usage either. But when you take into account how difficult it is to buy a real GBA cartridge currently with so many counterfeit bootlegs being common in sites such as eBay or Amazon, I don't think people should be risking their money for this. On my case, I got particularly lucky that I was able to find such a reliable person who was able to buy a legitimate cartridge for me. If you strongly disagree with the usage of emulators on almost any aspect, that's completely fine! Don't use them because no one in here will force you to do so. But for those who want to use them because they don't have the means to buy a real GBA cartridge and they consider the option of using emulators, that's fine as well. I really want to thank Golden Blissey for taking into account both retail and emulator streaks since in the end we all do have something in common which is the love we all have for Gen 3 and Emerald's Battle Frontier. You can see a picture of the cartridge here:
• Emerald cartridge

  
• Haven't been active as of lately due to work and considering the release of the new games, it has kind of swindled down. But not to worry, Crossfire Hurricane Special is still strong as ever! I'll try to get more battles incoming while the cartridge is getting shipped.
• Finally, a huge thanks to anyone who has been part of this fantastic community so far. I never imagined that after sharing my post on Team Azure, we would end up having a thread of our own and with so many people interested on Generation III. It motivates to keep the discussion up and help anyone who wants to be part of this. All I can say is that I feel so proud of meeting you all and sharing our experiences here. I only hope that whatever you take from this thread it will help you on achieving those super streaks in Emerald.
• Fuck Jolteon 4

 

[Adedede]

Finally, a huge thanks to anyone who has been part of this fantastic community so far. I never imagined that after sharing my post on Team Azure, we would end up having a thread of our own and with so many people interested on Generation III. It motivates to keep the discussion up and help anyone who wants to be part of this. All I can say is that I feel so proud of meeting you all and sharing our experiences here. I only hope that whatever you take from this thread it will help you on achieving those super streaks in Emerald.

That's totally true, Azure raised the bar and brought everybody to a competitive approach: when I first read it, I immediately thought "ok, that's amazing, I want to take this route too".

I wrote it in different occasions but I'll repeat: this renewed wave of interest for gen3 is thank to you, Kommo-o

If things go right, my retail cartridge which will contain all of my RNG'd Pokemon on Gen 3 will get mailed soon on this week-end. Once the cartridge is here, I will finally start on my streaks. Take into account that I don't do this for the sake of validation since I personally believe that people shouldn't be risking their money trying to buy a cartridge only for their streaks to be properly recognized in fear of retaliation for doing it on an emulator. We know that emulators are a controversial topic and my intention is not to encourage their usage either. But when you take into account how difficult it is to buy a real GBA cartridge currently with so many counterfeit bootlegs being common in sites such as eBay or Amazon, I don't think people should be risking their money for this. On my case, I got particularly lucky that I was able to find such a reliable person who was able to buy a legitimate cartridge for me. If you strongly disagree with the usage of emulators on almost any aspect, that's completely fine! Don't use them because no one in here will force you to do so. But for those who want to use them because they don't have the means to buy a real GBA cartridge and they consider the option of using emulators, that's fine as well. I really want to thank Golden Blissey for taking into account both retail and emulator streaks since in the end we all do have something in common which is the love we all have for Gen 3 and Emerald's Battle Frontier.

I think that Emulator streaks must be counted too, mainly for this reason: while it's true that is easier to cheat and savestate on Emu, it is possible even on cartridge with an R4 or a GameShark (in fact, I recently uploaded on PC a backup of my Emerald memory just to receive legal XD Moltres and Scizor with an R4).

So, a person who wants to trick us can do it in both ways, cartridge streaks are not "more valid".

Another point that one can bring on the table is that on Emu is possible to speed up the game, making runs faster (especially if using PP stall or hard defensive team).
This is true indeed, but Wins are Wins and this is not a speedrun. Faster battles don't affect records validity, they may only improve mental health (but we are spending our life in front of a GBA/Emu playing a 2005 Pokémon game, so sanity is not an issue at all).

This community is great, and I honestly feel like the best about gen3 has yet to come, mark my words.



P.S. FUCK WHISCASH 4

 

[howtogetpikachuonabus]

Hey guys I too have realized the awesome power of Moltres. I am currently running a team with Adedede's Moltres and have reached 154 wins so far (still going), which surpasses my own personal best. I have also adopted the use of torment, an astonishingly powerful move, thanks to Adedede. This team uses a rather unique pp stalling strategy so I thought I would share it and possibly encourage more experimentation with pivoting strategies.

A. Beads (Steelix) @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Rest
- Torment
- Iron Tail

Crust (Shedinja) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Wonder Guard
Level: 45
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 0 Spe
Brave Nature
- Protect
- Double Team
- Baton pass
- Toxic

Chicken (Moltres) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 220 HP / 52 Def / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Protect
- Morning Sun
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp

This team is based around the idea of switching out every turn until the opponent is out of moves. For example against a starmie switching to shedinja every turn to dodge surf and then switching back to moltres every other turn to absorb confuse ray. This strategy is very effective against most pokemon and has the added benefit of being able to play around quick claw. At least one member resists or is immune to every non status attack move in the game which is what allows this strategy to work. At the end of most battles I have three pokemon at full health with plenty of pp. Steelix was chosen as he heavily resists rock, super effective against the other two, and learns torment. Shedinja is level 45 and has reduced speed to allow the slowest possible baton passes to allow safe switches to my other pokemon. This is mostly only useful to give moltres leftover recovery while I pp stall a pokemon which is walled by shedinja.

Not so threatening threats:
Espeon 4

after a torment shedinja can't be touched by this. Which allows shedinja to double team and baton pass +6 evasion or use toxic

Salamence

I believe the worst set I came across is aerial ace, earthquake, dragon dance, crunch. After a torment steelix was able to kill it. The AI tends to choose eq,dd,eq,dd,eq,dd in this situation until it is +6 hopefully this will allow me to kill it before it starts using aerial ace. Moltres would still be able to pp stall it at +6 because of torment. The other sets are much easier to stall with some combination of torment and switching.

Hail/Sandstorm users.

They are weak to or completely walled by a combination of steelix and moltres. This allows shedinja to wait out the storm.

True threatlist:
Spikes...
They instantly kill shedinja. Without shedinja my team is weak to water and quick claw. Also the spikes stop me from switching steelix in an out multiple times. This inevitably means I will rely on Moltres to pp stall the rest of the battle. This is, in my opinion, the only thing stopping this team from being perfect.
Luckily there are only two sets in the whole tower that carry spikes which makes them rather rare

 

[Adedede]

Hey guys I too have realized the awesome power of Moltres. I am currently running a team with Adedede's Moltres and have reached 154 wins so far (still going), which surpasses my own personal best. I have also adopted the use of torment, an astonishingly powerful move, thanks to Adedede. This team uses a rather unique pp stalling strategy so I thought I would share it and possibly encourage more experimentation with pivoting strategies.

A. Beads (Steelix) @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Rest
- Torment
- Iron Tail

Crust (Shedinja) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Wonder Guard
Level: 45
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 0 Spe
Brave Nature
- Protect
- Double Team
- Baton pass
- Toxic

Chicken (Moltres) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 220 HP / 52 Def / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Protect
- Morning Sun
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp

This team is based around the idea of switching out every turn until the opponent is out of moves. For example against a starmie switching to shedinja every turn to dodge surf and then switching back to moltres every other turn to absorb confuse ray. This strategy is very effective against most pokemon and has the added benefit of being able to play around quick claw. At least one member resists or is immune to every non status attack move in the game which is what allows this strategy to work. At the end of most battles I have three pokemon at full health with plenty of pp. Steelix was chosen as he heavily resists rock, super effective against the other two, and learns torment. Shedinja is level 45 and has reduced speed to allow the slowest possible baton passes to allow safe switches to my other pokemon. This is mostly only useful to give moltres leftover recovery while I pp stall a pokemon which is walled by shedinja.

Not so threatening threats:
Espeon 4

after a torment shedinja can't be touched by this. Which allows shedinja to double team and baton pass +6 evasion or use toxic

Salamence

I believe the worst set I came across is aerial ace, earthquake, dragon dance, crunch. After a torment steelix was able to kill it. The AI tends to choose eq,dd,eq,dd,eq,dd in this situation until it is +6 hopefully this will allow me to kill it before it starts using aerial ace. Moltres would still be able to pp stall it at +6 because of torment. The other sets are much easier to stall with some combination of torment and switching.

Hail/Sandstorm users.

They are weak to or completely walled by a combination of steelix and moltres. This allows shedinja to wait out the storm.

True threatlist:
Spikes...
They instantly kill shedinja. Without shedinja my team is weak to water and quick claw. Also the spikes stop me from switching steelix in an out multiple times. This inevitably means I will rely on Moltres to pp stall the rest of the battle. This is, in my opinion, the only thing stopping this team from being perfect.
Luckily there are only two sets in the whole tower that carry spikes which makes them rather rare

I'm a huge fan of this team, ngl.


I imagine that you run Iron Tail on Steelix (in place of a more reliable damaging move as HP Steel or EQ) basically for this reason:

0 Atk Steelix Hidden Power Steel vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Armaldo: 71-84 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

0 Atk Steelix Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Armaldo: 102-120 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In desperate situations, this calc helps a lot.
Btw, Armaldo is dangerous BUT the first way to handle it is without doubts swap stall: can be PP stalled out quite easily, as almost every foe with Shedinja on switch-ins (if A.I. has PPs left on super-effective moves, he usually picks them even if PPs are low, not starting to select randomly).

I see no single threats at all: even Espeon 4, designed to kill Stall, is easily handled by Shedinja if Lum Berry is active (otherwise, Synchronized Toxic means suicide and Bite has way more PPs than Protect).

A stall team without phaze is a big risk in theory, but your team has Toxic+W-o-W (unresisted way to kill every Double-Team abuser), while Shedinja laughs at Calm Mind spammers (bar Esp4).
Only threats may be Physical set-up foes, but they usually have just Rock Slide (or Shadow Ball for CurseLax) to hit Shedinja (that means a Torment it's enough to nullify them) and Steelix takes nothing even from +6 RS thanks to its quadruple Rock resistance, if swap stall is needed.


As usual, problems may come with a bad sequence of foes, as it is for every stall team I'm recently building:
In your case, if you lose Shedinja berry, Esp4 is the worst thing that can come up;
Spikes at the beginning of a match are THE threat, as you wrote, even if they must be followed by the right enemies (WATER).


Great job, seriously!

 

[turskain]

Hey guys I too have realized the awesome power of Moltres. I am currently running a team with Adedede's Moltres and have reached 154 wins so far (still going), which surpasses my own personal best. I have also adopted the use of torment, an astonishingly powerful move, thanks to Adedede. This team uses a rather unique pp stalling strategy so I thought I would share it and possibly encourage more experimentation with pivoting strategies.

A. Beads (Steelix) @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Protect
- Rest
- Torment
- Iron Tail

Crust (Shedinja) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Wonder Guard
Level: 45
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 0 Spe
Brave Nature
- Protect
- Double Team
- Baton pass
- Toxic

Chicken (Moltres) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 220 HP / 52 Def / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
- Protect
- Morning Sun
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp

This team is based around the idea of switching out every turn until the opponent is out of moves. For example against a starmie switching to shedinja every turn to dodge surf and then switching back to moltres every other turn to absorb confuse ray. This strategy is very effective against most pokemon and has the added benefit of being able to play around quick claw. At least one member resists or is immune to every non status attack move in the game which is what allows this strategy to work. At the end of most battles I have three pokemon at full health with plenty of pp. Steelix was chosen as he heavily resists rock, super effective against the other two, and learns torment. Shedinja is level 45 and has reduced speed to allow the slowest possible baton passes to allow safe switches to my other pokemon. This is mostly only useful to give moltres leftover recovery while I pp stall a pokemon which is walled by shedinja.

Not so threatening threats:
Espeon 4

after a torment shedinja can't be touched by this. Which allows shedinja to double team and baton pass +6 evasion or use toxic

Salamence

I believe the worst set I came across is aerial ace, earthquake, dragon dance, crunch. After a torment steelix was able to kill it. The AI tends to choose eq,dd,eq,dd,eq,dd in this situation until it is +6 hopefully this will allow me to kill it before it starts using aerial ace. Moltres would still be able to pp stall it at +6 because of torment. The other sets are much easier to stall with some combination of torment and switching.

Hail/Sandstorm users.

They are weak to or completely walled by a combination of steelix and moltres. This allows shedinja to wait out the storm.

True threatlist:
Spikes...
They instantly kill shedinja. Without shedinja my team is weak to water and quick claw. Also the spikes stop me from switching steelix in an out multiple times. This inevitably means I will rely on Moltres to pp stall the rest of the battle. This is, in my opinion, the only thing stopping this team from being perfect.
Luckily there are only two sets in the whole tower that carry spikes which makes them rather rare

How does Double Team work for Shedinja? Could Dig be usable to alternate Protect/Dig for extra PP stall longevity? Or maybe Spite to make the depletion quicker.

 

[Adedede]

How does Double Team work for Shedinja? Could Dig be usable to alternate Protect/Dig for extra PP stall longevity? Or maybe Spite to make the depletion quicker.

Baton Pass evasion boosts, only way for Shedinja to capitalize on "already dead" enemies for this team.

Dig or Spite can just make some wins quicker but don't help against any threat in particular (and he's playing on Emu, so matches lenght is not an issue at all), while Moltres behind +6 evasion has great chances to set up a Sub and defeat a lot of bad matchups (like the aformentioned Espeon 4).

Shedinja is level 45 and has reduced speed to allow the slowest possible baton passes to allow safe switches to my other pokemon. This is mostly only useful to give moltres leftover recovery while I pp stall a pokemon which is walled by shedinja.

Moreover, this is really smart, especially for the slow BP to Moltres for Leftovers recovery on dead fodders vs. Shedinja.

 

[howtogetpikachuonabus]

I imagine that you run Iron Tail on Steelix (in place of a more reliable damaging move as HP Steel or EQ) basically for this reason

I actually run iron tail for the chance of def drop. But on reflection I don't think there has been a single scenario where it was necessary. I don't run eq because of salamence. I think HP steel might be better.

Or maybe Spite to make the depletion quicker.

I have tried spite. And like Adedede said it seems to speed up the process but doesn't seem to help the team overall.
Metal claw is similar but it does kill a few toxic resistant pokemon.
I have considered swagger,screech, mimic, thief. But none of them really change any matchups.

 

[Adedede]

howtogetpikachuonabus I have already tried the team, which is very similar to my recent Mount Sinai (with Shedinja in Blissey's spot to handle most of Special Attackers/Waters), and overall I prefer this Moltres/Shedinja stall because it can really capitalize on foe's scouting and it completely destroys a threat that every team has, even with a Sturdy user: Walrein 4 (and Whiscash 2 to an extent, fuck Whiscash 2).
They are OHKO moves users with QC and they can also defeat Sturdy users with their coverage.
Well, Shedinja laughs at them, BUT Spikes weakness really hurts too much for long run imo, it's enough to face a leading Skarm/Tress to say gg in too many scenarios.

I've immediately started to calc, and the solutions didn't convince me at a first glance.
Forretress is not an issue with right countermeasures, but Timid Moltres can't achieve OHKO on Skarm2 with Flamethrower, while with Overheat it can even with my spread that you're running.
Btw, Skarm2 holds Brightpowder which reduces OH accuracy to 81%, and if Moltres misses, get hit by Toxic, and the foe also manages to set Spikes in the process, the match is lost in 2 turns.
Considering your team's perfect defensive core, I switched to Modest Moltres. Unfortunately it can't outspeed neutral Nature 255 EVs 100 BST Speedtier, but there are no threats here that Moltres needs to handle alone in your team.

Its calcs are way better, with this spread it handles Skarm2 with Flamethrower:

Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 92 HP / 4 Def / 156 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Morning Sun
- Protect
- Substitute

156+ SpA Moltres Flamethrower vs. 170 HP / 170+ SpD Skarmory: 163-192 (101.2 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So you can lead with this Moltres, which is still a perfect scout and can handle in 90% of cases Skarm 2 (Brightpowder is still there, we know) vs. 81% of cases with Timid OH, while also achieving OHKO 100% of times vs. Tress 1 ("only" 90% for OH).
This Moltres is a bit less bulky, but still hits a Leftovers number which is the most important aspect.
Moreover, FT has 24 PPs and don't cause SpAtk drops, so it's without doubts the best pick.

Another thing I consider is that Iron Tail is completely useless on Lix, it's a wasted slot.
Unfortunately 252 Spe EVs Timid Steelix can't outspeed uninvested Skarm 2 (they speedtie at 90, come on GameFreak), otherwise you could have kept fast Steelix lead with Taunt and Modest Flamethrower Moltres ready to switch on Taunted Spikers to OHKO them.

At this point, what I strongly suggest you to run is Roar on Steelix, otherwise foes like Snorlax 1 (if it has Immunity), Crobat 2 and Registeel 5 (well, Modest FT is there, but hax is hax) are too dangerous threats: they can set-up multiple evasion boosts AND they're immune to Toxic AND they hold Leftovers.
Without W-o-W, they can easily cause infinite battle (because Leftovers recovers Struggling damage), so your gameplan vs. trainers that may carry these Mons should always be to "shuffle" their teams searching for these Pokemons, make them run out of PPs and then hit a Roar through +6 evasion to erase their boosts.
If they pop up as the last foe, the game has too many chances to be infinite, and you've lost.

This brought me to another idea.
A great option to handle them is the following one: you can run Item-less Shedinja with Thief and Dig in Baton Pass and Double-Team spots.
Without Lum, Shedinja needs Dig and Protect (32 PPs combined) to stall out a Tormented Espeon 4 (Bite has 30 PPs), while with Thief and no items it can steal Leftovers from Double-Team spammers, ensuring the Win when they'll struggle. Obviously, Thief must be kept until end of the match waiting for the right foe's item that needs to be stolen.
While it's true that Thief works even after Lum has been eaten, this move is more like an emergency button, so you must be sure to have access to it in right moments, not having to rely on status healed before.
This set is worse than the previous one imo, I loved slow BP idea, but the team overall works the same, and with this niche it has a strong answer to these new threats generated by the lack of W-o-W, necessary to handle Spikers.
At the end of the day, Lum can be useful just for Synchronize users, otherwise you should always swap stall Steelix into Statuses, so it's not the big loss it may look on paper.
I suggest this set always paired with Roar Lix, it's always useful, especially if multiple Double-Team abusers come out.

EDIT: With this new team, Salamence (mostly 4) must be handled with switches, not Torment, because Steelix doesn't have damaging move and so only way to deal with it is Toxic: with Torment, it arrives to Struggle with PPs left from Dragon Dance (at +6/+6 it will stop using it), so Shedinja can't safely switch and status it.
If not Tormented, Sala will finish its damaging moves vs. right switches, and then it repeatedly spam DD (that's the moment when Shedinja has to use Toxic)



So, this is my variation of the team (Steelix EVs spread should also be optimized):


Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 92 HP / 4 Def / 156 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Morning Sun
- Protect
- Substitute

Steelix (M) @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Torment
- Rest
- Roar
- Protect

Shedinja
Ability: Wonder Guard
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Thief
- Protect
- Dig
- Toxic

EDIT: Wrong Nature on Shedinja in the first post, Naive (+Spe) was intended.
It allows Shedinja to reach 101 Spe, packing a surprisingly "fast" Toxic.

 

[howtogetpikachuonabus]

These are great ideas but I still see a few issues with this team.
1. Steelix using roar can land on Skarm/Tress then we are back to square one. Maybe avoid roar against the lead? Roar does sound like a decent idea but it also kinda defeats the point of leading with moltres.
2. If shedinja is faster it seems like dig could be a liability. Which may be unavoidable against curse users. I guess I'm also wondering if there is any benefit of moving faster? It just seems like it might cause problems against QC.
3. Sharpedo may be more of a problem with a weaker moltres. Stalling out crunch and surf is pretty difficult for this team.
4. Running out of pp may become more of a problem with the removal of iron tail and WOW. Pressure opponents might be more of a problem.

Also just thought I would mention some other threats that make me avoid leading with shedinja in any situation.
There is one altaria with pursuit. handled fine by the other two.
Dugtrio can have arena trap. Handled fine by the other two.

 

[Kommo-o]

These are great ideas but I still see a few issues with this team.
1. Steelix using roar can land on Skarm/Tress then we are back to square one. Maybe avoid roar against the lead? Roar does sound like a decent idea but it also kinda defeats the point of leading with moltres.
2. If shedinja is faster it seems like dig could be a liability. Which may be unavoidable against curse users. I guess I'm also wondering if there is any benefit of moving faster? It just seems like it might cause problems against QC.
3. Sharpedo may be more of a problem with a weaker moltres. Stalling out crunch and surf is pretty difficult for this team.
4. Running out of pp may become more of a problem with the removal of iron tail and WOW. Pressure opponents might be more of a problem.

Also just thought I would mention some other threats that make me avoid leading with shedinja in any situation.
There is one altaria with pursuit. handled fine by the other two.
Dugtrio can have arena trap. Handled fine by the other two.

Flamethrower OHKOs both Forretress and Skarmory. Also, you can stall swap between Steelix and Moltres to stall out Forretress' 4 Rock Slide and avoid a QC shenanigan. Since the x4 weakness to Rock is more tempting for the AI than Explosion, stall swapping is safe to deal with it since the AI also factors that Explosion will KO its own Pokemon. I guess the extra Speed Adedede mentioned has to do with being able to outspeed Milotic and set up Toxic while getting the advantage against 2 Magmar sets, but I do believe you have much more benefit on being slower to reliably PP stall so I disagree with that suggestion.

I do agree on Sharpedo being a massive threat with these changes but Moltres is still faster than Sharpedo and you can reliably stall Surf with Sub + Protect and even at a moment where you need to use Morning Sun, Moltres can tank a Surf and once Crunch is left, Steelix eats Sharpedo alive. Sharpedo 2 is the only set used at the latter stages of your streak and it's not really that common. I personally think Moltres can do a good job handling it 1-v-1 since I am using a weaker SpA investment version that can also beat Water types and I've successfully stalled them from experience.

Re: Iron Tail I see no benefit at all on using it. It is horribly inaccurate and the occasional defense drops, factoring its pitiful 75% accuracy are around a ~15% from happening. Hidden Power Steel has the same amount of PP and doesn't misses despite being weaker. Accuracy overall beats power because you never know how long Iron Tail will keep on missing taking into account Emerald's broken PRNG which can cause results to be repetitive when you could be 2HKOing without issues with HP Steel.

 

[The Suicune Replacement]

Hey guys,

Does someone here have experience with teambuilding around Latias? I was able to RNG a 31/28/31/31/31/31 Timid Latias using the Battle Video method and now seek help to fit it into a viable team for the Battle Tower. I mainly have trouble to find 2 other teammembers that would form a nice core with Latias.

 

[dgice]

Adedede you absolute pokemon master. I've been watching people post streaks with teams that I knew would fall victim to certain threats, but IRIDESCENCE covers so much with lead protect+ whirlwind+torment+hail leftovers blissey. And the fact that you talk about Espeon 4 is how I know you're for real. I feel like Iridescence is a big step forward in "solving" the emerald battle tower in terms of finding the team least likely to lose.

If I were to challenge you with a question; how would you react to a lead swampert from a sailor, and then assuming you whirlwind, what do you do if it gets a surf crit and the next pokemon is lapras or whishcash?

Lati+skarm core is so solid, I've been considering thick fat snorlax or volt absorb lanturn as a third based on type coverage. (skarmory 4x resists grass move which all have abysmal base power making it's pairing with lanturn very solid). Any thoughts?

 

[Adedede]

Adedede you absolute pokemon master. I've been watching people post streaks with teams that I knew would fall victim to certain threats, but IRIDESCENCE covers so much with lead protect+ whirlwind+torment+hail leftovers blissey. And the fact that you talk about Espeon 4 is how I know you're for real. I feel like Iridescence is a big step forward in "solving" the emerald battle tower in terms of finding the team least likely to lose.

If I were to challenge you with a question; how would you react to a lead swampert from a sailor, and then assuming you whirlwind, what do you do if it gets a surf crit and the next pokemon is lapras or whishcash?

Lati+skarm core is so solid, I've been considering thick fat snorlax or volt absorb lanturn as a third based on type coverage. (skarmory 4x resists grass move which all have abysmal base power making it's pairing with lanturn very solid). Any thoughts?

Thanks, you're too nice but sadly too far from truth.
IRIDESCENCE lost a few weeks ago at 651 vs. the most unreal sequence of hax I've ever witnessed from a Whiscash 2 (FUCK WHISCASH 2), which basically defeats alone my entire team.

I know for sure this is extremely unlikely to happen again, but lately I feel more comfortable playing with Moltres Stall (I use IRIDESCENCE just in boss fight-7 battles, because with Mount Sinai I have to PP stall every Anabel's Pokemon in a neverending match, while Latios 3-0 her team just switching on turn 1 on Raikou).

At the end of the day, I think that Moltres/Steelix/Blissey core is the best one available vs. Tower, passed only by Shedinja's variation tbh, but Spikes are really too dangerous.
One day, when I'll have more free time (and, most of all, more willingness to play), I'll definitely give IRIDESCENCE another shot, truely deservs it

P.S.: dgice For your last member suggestions, Lanturn doesn't have reliable recover, so it can't stall effectively Special attackers, while Snorlax can't cover the crucial role of OHKO moves absorber vs. specific threats, like Nidoking 3 or (mostly) Walrein 4, that have super-effective coverage for Latios and can easily pass through Skarmory, while they are outsped by Bliss and can't break her Sub (moreover, Lax can't handle Leftovers Double Team spammers without Hail)

EDIT
P.P.S.: I forgot to answer to your first question.
Vs. a leading Pert, I always switch into Blissey and then swap stall it (Skarm on predicted EQs and Bliss on predicted Surf/IB).
If it is Pert 1 (with Curse and EQ as only damaging move), I immediately switch into Latios to set-up.

 

[dgice]

I mean more in the sense that IRIDESCENCE covers even more corner cases and reveals new challenges thus advancing our understanding, not that it is the solution.

 

[Scrungo]

Heya guys, I'm taking on the Battle Frontier, and the team I currently have is:

Starmie @ Scope Lens
Ability: Natural Cure
Modest Nature
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

• Surf
• Psychic
• Ice Beam
• Thunderbolt

Tyranitar @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Jolly Nature
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

• Aerial Ace
• Dragon Dance
• Earthquake
• Rock Slide

Snorlax @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
Adamant Nature
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Def/ 6 Spe

• Body Slam
• Brick Break
• Rest
• Yawn

Basically, the strategy here is that Starmie, with its diverse move pool, can take most most opponents, and when theres an electric type, switch into Tyranitar and use Earthquake.
If the opponent spams Double Team, switch into Tyranitar, use Dragon dance a few times, since the AI usually focuses on Double Team, it's a good idea to stock up on at least 2 Dragon Dances, and then take them down with Aerial Ace.
Snorlax is just kinda there as a wall, and to put the opponent to sleep if you're really having a hard time with them. Brick Break to take care of Dark, Steel, Rock, and any Normal types, as well as Light Screen or Barrier.

I feel as if I could have somewhat better Pokemon on this team however. Like replacing Tyranitar with Flygon for the full Electric immunity, and replace Snorlax with Metagross perhaps? I'm iffy on Tyranitar and Snorlax, but I think Starmie is a just have for my strategy of taking down the opponent quick with diverse moves, high speed, and high special attack.

(I'm also fairly new to team building, so if anything is just jarringly off/wrong, that's why lol )

What do you guys think?

 

[dgice]

Heya guys, I'm taking on the Battle Frontier, and the team I currently have is:

Starmie @ Scope Lens
Ability: Natural Cure
Modest Nature
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

• Surf
• Psychic
• Ice Beam
• Thunderbolt

Tyranitar @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Jolly Nature
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

• Aerial Ace
• Dragon Dance
• Earthquake
• Rock Slide

Snorlax @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
Adamant Nature
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Def/ 6 Spe

• Body Slam
• Brick Break
• Rest
• Yawn

Basically, the strategy here is that Starmie, with its diverse move pool, can take most most opponents, and when theres an electric type, switch into Tyranitar and use Earthquake.
If the opponent spams Double Team, switch into Tyranitar, use Dragon dance a few times, since the AI usually focuses on Double Team, it's a good idea to stock up on at least 2 Dragon Dances, and then take them down with Aerial Ace.
Snorlax is just kinda there as a wall, and to put the opponent to sleep if you're really having a hard time with them. Brick Break to take care of Dark, Steel, Rock, and any Normal types, as well as Light Screen or Barrier.

I feel as if I could have somewhat better Pokemon on this team however. Like replacing Tyranitar with Flygon for the full Electric immunity, and replace Snorlax with Metagross perhaps? I'm iffy on Tyranitar and Snorlax, but I think Starmie is a just have for my strategy of taking down the opponent quick with diverse moves, high speed, and high special attack.

(I'm also fairly new to team building, so if anything is just jarringly off/wrong, that's why lol )

What do you guys think?

I think you can probably back off to 196 speed Iv's on tyranitar. At most you want 244 ev's because beyond that you don't outspeed anything extra at either the base or +1 speed.
If there is an electric type I think you should switch out to snorlax and use earthquake (but I don't have snorlax move suggestions). You could easily replace tyranitar with salamence and get some nice resistance synergies.

 

[dgice]

Hey guys,

Does someone here have experience with teambuilding around Latias? I was able to RNG a 31/28/31/31/31/31 Timid Latias using the Battle Video method and now seek help to fit it into a viable team for the Battle Tower. I mainly have trouble to find 2 other teammembers that would form a nice core with Latias.

Are you just trying to get to gold? Are you trying to get to 100 wins? Are you trying to get to 500 wins?
For gold you could probably just do a sweeper latias with swampert and metagross like the speed runners do. For 105 wins Choiceband double edge slaking and curse torment protect fly leftovers skarmory 252hp 252+ spdef will get you there in a reasonable time alongside a sub calm mind dragon claw recover latias. For beyond 105 wins you can read the previous posts in this thread to get ideas.

 

[Kommo-o]

Hey guys,

Does someone here have experience with teambuilding around Latias? I was able to RNG a 31/28/31/31/31/31 Timid Latias using the Battle Video method and now seek help to fit it into a viable team for the Battle Tower. I mainly have trouble to find 2 other teammembers that would form a nice core with Latias.

Basically any Steel type with STAB will be a good partner for Latias. Skarmory deserves a mention since it quad-resists bug and it is a complete counter to Haxdon. You'll want to use Latias on a much more defensive / support role since offensively it is outclassed by Latios and its Sub CM set is even inferior to what Latios can do due to the extra base SpA. I'm not a big advocate of Latias, but it gets very interesting options that could work out like Mist Ball, Charm, Thunder Wave, Wish, etc. I would focus mostly on investing in bulk over power, but its up to personal preference.

 

[Kommo-o]

Heya guys, I'm taking on the Battle Frontier, and the team I currently have is:

Starmie @ Scope Lens
Ability: Natural Cure
Modest Nature
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

• Surf
• Psychic
• Ice Beam
• Thunderbolt

Tyranitar @ Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Jolly Nature
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

• Aerial Ace
• Dragon Dance
• Earthquake
• Rock Slide

Snorlax @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Thick Fat
Adamant Nature
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Def/ 6 Spe

• Body Slam
• Brick Break
• Rest
• Yawn

Basically, the strategy here is that Starmie, with its diverse move pool, can take most most opponents, and when theres an electric type, switch into Tyranitar and use Earthquake.
If the opponent spams Double Team, switch into Tyranitar, use Dragon dance a few times, since the AI usually focuses on Double Team, it's a good idea to stock up on at least 2 Dragon Dances, and then take them down with Aerial Ace.
Snorlax is just kinda there as a wall, and to put the opponent to sleep if you're really having a hard time with them. Brick Break to take care of Dark, Steel, Rock, and any Normal types, as well as Light Screen or Barrier.

I feel as if I could have somewhat better Pokemon on this team however. Like replacing Tyranitar with Flygon for the full Electric immunity, and replace Snorlax with Metagross perhaps? I'm iffy on Tyranitar and Snorlax, but I think Starmie is a just have for my strategy of taking down the opponent quick with diverse moves, high speed, and high special attack.

(I'm also fairly new to team building, so if anything is just jarringly off/wrong, that's why lol )

What do you guys think?

Considering that you mentioned Tyranitar I assume this is Open Level. I don't feel that Snorlax and Tyranitar should be on the same team depending on the facility you want to challenge. Both stack a Fighting weakness and since Starmie has shaky defenses, it will easily fall down to Cross Chop crits, which is a common STAB on bulky Pokemon like Machamp and Hariyama who can eat attacks from Snorlax and Tyranitar. Even +252 SpA Starmie fails to OHKO Heracross 2 who will easily break through this team taking into account that it still outspeeds Tyranitar and dents it with STAB Megahorn.

I would recommend replacing Tyranitar with Salamence since you mentioned it is your only way to deal with DT abusers. Salamence also brings that handy Intimidate drop which greatly benefits Snorlax considering the good synergy both have with Salamence being able to switch into Fighting attacks and weakening the opponent in the process. Salamence also provides a x4 resist to Grass which Starmie greatly appreciates.

An Adamant set with DD / Aerial Ace / Earthquake / Substitute will do the trick on your team since Salamence is a really nice win-con to have on a team. Also it is the best Aerial Ace user if you can't afford running HP Flying on it. Since you are using Snorlax on a crippler role, I think DD Salamence will greatly appreciate those turns of set-up. Hope this helps and I will link below the set:

Salamence

Salamence (M) @ Lum Berry
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Ability: Intimidate
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Aerial Ace
- Earthquake
- Dragon Dance

 

[howtogetpikachuonabus]

Moltres @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 92 HP / 4 Def / 156 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Morning Sun
- Protect
- Substitute

Steelix (M) @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Torment
- Rest
- Roar
- Protect

Shedinja
Ability: Wonder Guard
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Thief
- Protect
- Dig
- Toxic

I have been testing this team and I think Moltres needs more bulk especially Special defense as I rely on it to tank against special attackers with fire moves. I lost from crits against a charizard alternating between flamethrower aerial ace and dragon claw and I think this could have been prevented. Moltres also may not need all the speed that it's packing because of its teammates.

Another idea that I have been testing and has performed quite well so far is to replace Moltres with Blastoise. Blastoise stops spikes, resists fire, and does well against calm minders. For instance entei 4 and entei 5 are handled well.

Blastoise leftovers
Carefull
EVs: 172 HP/ 84 DEF/ 252 SpD
protect
rest
haze
rapid spin

Haze is amazing against most setup pokemon and does a great job preventing infinite battles.
The only threats I can think of for this team are sunny day pokemon with flamethrower and I have heavily invested in special defense to combat this. Flamethrower is a particular problem because even though blastoise resists it he can be burned and the high pp means this is actually quite likely 79% chance if he tanks 15. This means that in most cases he needs to stay in to tank against the attack which opens him up to sunny solar beam. Also I have been running this with hp steel on steelix in order to speed up the battles. It seems like roar is unnecessary with haze. Also hp steel would help against VICTREEBEL (3), and VILEPLUME (2) which have ingrain and are difficult to kill.

 

[Adedede]

I have been testing this team and I think Moltres needs more bulk especially Special defense as I rely on it to tank against special attackers with fire moves. I lost from crits against a charizard alternating between flamethrower aerial ace and dragon claw and I think this could have been prevented. Moltres also may not need all the speed that it's packing because of its teammates.

Another idea that I have been testing and has performed quite well so far is to replace Moltres with Blastoise. Blastoise stops spikes, resists fire, and does well against calm minders. For instance entei 4 and entei 5 are handled well.

Blastoise leftovers
Carefull
EVs: 172 HP/ 84 DEF/ 252 SpD
protect
rest
haze
rapid spin

Haze is amazing against most setup pokemon and does a great job preventing infinite battles.
The only threats I can think of for this team are sunny day pokemon with flamethrower and I have heavily invested in special defense to combat this. Flamethrower is a particular problem because even though blastoise resists it he can be burned and the high pp means this is actually quite likely 79% chance if he tanks 15. This means that in most cases he needs to stay in to tank against the attack which opens him up to sunny solar beam. Also I have been running this with hp steel on steelix in order to speed up the battles. It seems like roar is unnecessary with haze. Also hp steel would help against VICTREEBEL (3), and VILEPLUME (2) which have ingrain and are difficult to kill.

Really like it, in fact Shedinja leaves you open to test a lot.

This team has to heavily rely on swap stall, only issue that I see is Water neutrality to almost every Physical attack, which may be a problem when the A.I. will be running out of PPs and start to pick randomly (with Moltres is way easier to predict, thanks to its synergy with Steelix/Shed and its weaknesses).

One question: are you still running fast Thief Shedinja? Imo double team baton passers works better with fast Moltres (can set-up Subs with Pressure behind +6 evasion), but slow baton passes to Blastoise for recover (since it doesn't have reliable recovery move) may woork too, with Baton Pass in Dig's place paired with Lum Berry to land that Toxic on Espeon4.
Unfortunately, even with Haze Registeel 5 is still untouchable for this team and so you need Thief.
At the end of the day, we're all at the same point: sacrificing overall utility (slow Baton Pass on Blastoise which is great) in order to stop one or two threats from autowinning when they shows up (and that's the reason why you have changed your first team -that would have worked perfectly without those 2 Spikes users-).

P.S.:Still big Shed fan

 

[The Suicune Replacement]

Are you just trying to get to gold? Are you trying to get to 100 wins? Are you trying to get to 500 wins?
For gold you could probably just do a sweeper latias with swampert and metagross like the speed runners do. For 105 wins Choiceband double edge slaking and curse torment protect fly leftovers skarmory 252hp 252+ spdef will get you there in a reasonable time alongside a sub calm mind dragon claw recover latias. For beyond 105 wins you can read the previous posts in this thread to get ideas.

I am actually trying to go for a really high streak in the Battle Tower, so I'm looking for a team that is viable for long term streaks. I already looked at Adedede's team IRIDESCENCE and really liked the idea of the defensive core the team forms, but I saw that he switched out Latias for Latios since it seems to be an overall better option for the team, which made me hesitate to use Latias in the same team.

Basically any Steel type with STAB will be a good partner for Latias. Skarmory deserves a mention since it quad-resists bug and it is a complete counter to Haxdon. You'll want to use Latias on a much more defensive / support role since offensively it is outclassed by Latios and its Sub CM set is even inferior to what Latios can do due to the extra base SpA. I'm not a big advocate of Latias, but it gets very interesting options that could work out like Mist Ball, Charm, Thunder Wave, Wish, etc. I would focus mostly on investing in bulk over power, but its up to personal preference.

Yes I also thought about using it in a defensive team so that it can actually abuse it's niche over Latios. I use the same EV spread as the Latias on team IRIDESCENCE since I initially thought about using the Sub+CM set in a defensive team, but I still lack 2 team members. A support Latias also seems to be an interesting option, I remember seeing it on a Battle Tower team in Gen. 4 that achieved over 1000 wins, but I don't know if Gen 3 also offers a good enough team in which a supportive Latias would do well in.

 

[Adedede]

I saw that he switched out Latias for Latios since it seems to be an overall better option for the team, which made me hesitate to use Latias in the same team.

It's true that Latios holds a few niches over Latias, but I lost at 651 to a Whiscash 2 that hits a QC CH vs. my +2 SpDef Latios, and I'll leave you these sweet calcs:

252+ SpA Whiscash Ice Beam vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Latios on a critical hit: 159-188 (89.8 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Whiscash Ice Beam vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Latias on a critical hit: 139-164 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you are thinking of a crippling lead Latias, I suggest you to join us on Discord because some people are working on that right now.



Also, howtogetpikachuonabus , Houndoom 4 seems pretty scary, you have to guess right multiple Overheat turns in order to lower its SpAtk, otherwise this dog is really tough to handle

 

[The Suicune Replacement]

It's true that Latios holds a few niches over Latias, but I lost at 651 to a Whiscash 2 that hits a QC CH vs. my +2 SpDef Latios, and I'll leave you these sweet calcs:

252+ SpA Whiscash Ice Beam vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Latios on a critical hit: 159-188 (89.8 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Whiscash Ice Beam vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Latias on a critical hit: 139-164 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you are thinking of a crippling lead Latias, I suggest you to join us on Discord because some people are working on that right now.

Thanks for the clarification, I may have misunderstood something there then. It seems like that Latias is still a viable option in IRIDESCENCE considering you achieved around 600+ wins with it. I guess I will give it a try to get a feeling for how the things work in the Battle Tower before I'm attempting to rng a perfect Latios on a fresh save. Also thanks for the suggestion, a crippling lead Latias sounds so fun that I will definitely give it a shot.