Gen V Balanced Hackmons

[Arcticblast]

Some form of Hackmons (depending on verbatim's plan) might actually be up as soon as XY is playable on PS - Hackmons and Balanced Hackmons sparked several bug fixes and are an excellent sandbox for testing mechanics. For example, if it weren't for Balanced Hackmons, we may never have known the extent to which Mold Breaker was performing wrong. We also might never have gotten Magic Bounce mechanics as good as they are now.

 

[Rumors]

Right, but I'm betting it'll be a month or so before X/Y is playable on PS. There's a lot of work to be done.

But if I'm wrong and Gen VI is up on PS much sooner, I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[verbatim]

Right, but I'm betting it'll be a month or so before X/Y is playable on PS. There's a lot of work to be done.

It was no where near as expansive, but we got BW2 done in like
4 hours. We'll beat one month easily.

Right now I'm thinking just an OHKO and Wonder Guard ban, and then go from there as the metagame develops, thoughts?

 

[Redless]

Right now I'm thinking just an OHKO and Wonder Guard ban, and then go from there as the metagame develops, thoughts?

Sounds good, I don't think that it will take long for the trapping to be banned either, we might just ban that initially too. About huge and pure power, those will likely be banned too, although probably much later than trapping.

 

[ntiller]

I would say keep Pure/Huge Power banned, unban the trapping abilities but look at them very closely from the beginning. Ghost immunity to trapping might make them more balanced.

 

[Redless]

Trapping is something that I don't think is very healthy for the meta, stall specifically. It basically requires every non ghost type member of a stall team that can't damage gira/Lugia/Ferrothorn/your favorite trapper and isn't holding a shed shell to run a move that can force a switch, and it also destroys things by baton passing through a team, in general it just imbalances the meta because most Pokemon can all of a sudden die to perish song or get set up on.

 

[Keep it Playful]

I was browsing through some OMs and decided to read the OP of STABmons. I've played a few games on PS and wanted to read more about it. I found these complex clauses/bans there:

Clauses apply as follows:
~Sketch Clause (Sketch banned outside of Smeargle)
~Pre-evo Clause (STAB can be transferred from earlier evolutions, see bottom of post)
~Forme Clause (certain formes can transfer STABs, see bottom of post)
~Nice Ubers Clause (some Ubers are allowed, see bottom of post)
~Limited Normals Clause (as of 10/3/13, only 1 instance of extra STAB is allowed for Normal-types, including access through the Pre-evo and Forme Clauses)

With all this talk of potentially banning various moves, abilities and some complex bans, I was wondering why complex bans had such strong opposition. To me it came off like they were a thing of the past, like the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban in OU that I think someone mentioned here. But clearly this was just updated yesterday in fact and that "Limited Normals Clause" looks quite complex, feeding off other clauses and only allowing one extra move for Normal type only. Sounds pretty similar to the proposed ban for PH on normals in Balanced Hackmons to me. I'm just not understanding why the inconsistency.

 

[verbatim]

Everything in OM is run independently from Smogon's standard for banning, thus it depends more on the metagame leader's philosophy on banning. I personally try to stay away from anything that would add a level of complexity that could make Balanced Hackmons take longer to explain to prospective new players. (I.E., banning OHKO moves instead of banning OHKO + No Guard, or banning perfect Wonder Guard Combos, or the complex bans proposed in the extreme stall debate).

With regards to trapping, I feel very similar to the sentiments articulated by Redless. Ability trapping's ban was in response to a team archetype wherein everyone ran Shadow Tag and the lead ran Trickscarf, instantly deciding the match based on the lead matchup.

Solution to mold breaker and (to a lesser extent)poison heal: Sleep clause.

Apologies for not keeping up with the Mold Breaker discussion. At this point I'd rather wait the week until X Y comes out than make any hasty decisions. That being said, It's great to see you back.

 

[EV]

In my defense (and I know the BH thread isn't the place to debate STABmons but it's relevant to the nature of bans), the playerbase I encountered in my meta seemed to favor a game more aligned with standard OU whereas BH blows any relevance to standard OU out of the water. I can see the hesitation to implement lots of bans and any complex bans in such a wide-open meta like BH because BH players don't play BH to adhere to restrictions--the nature of the meta fosters an anything goes mantra. STABmons was essentially built off the platform of standard OU and as such the players were not so opposed to the multiple clauses.

 

[Rumors]

verbatim: Well then, I'll adjust my estimate from one month to 6 hours. :p


If there's a move in X/Y that can clear the Poison status from the opponent, like Wake-up Slap for sleep and Smelling Salt for paralysis, I can see PH being much less of a problem. (Or if X/Y nerfs it, but I suspect that won't happen).

Or maybe if Venoshock got a boost in BP. Maybe.

 

[Keep it Playful]

Everything in OM is run independently from Smogon's standard for banning, thus it depends more on the metagame leader's philosophy on banning. I personally try to stay away from anything that would add a level of complexity that could make Balanced Hackmons take longer to explain to prospective new players. (I.E., banning OHKO moves instead of banning OHKO + No Guard, or banning perfect Wonder Guard Combos, or the complex bans proposed in the extreme stall debate).

With regards to trapping, I feel very similar to the sentiments articulated by Redless. Ability trapping's ban was in response to a team archetype wherein everyone ran Shadow Tag and the lead ran Trickscarf, instantly deciding the match based on the lead matchup.



Apologies for not keeping up with the Mold Breaker discussion. At this point I'd rather wait the week until X Y comes out than make any hasty decisions. That being said, It's great to see you back.

Thanks I understand now. : )

In my defense (and I know the BH thread isn't the place to debate STABmons but it's relevant to the nature of bans), the playerbase I encountered in my meta seemed to favor a game more aligned with standard OU whereas BH blows any relevance to standard OU out of the water. I can see the hesitation to implement lots of bans and any complex bans in such a wide-open meta like BH because BH players don't play BH to adhere to restrictions--the nature of the meta fosters an anything goes mantra. STABmons was essentially built off the platform of standard OU and as such the players were not so opposed to the multiple clauses.

Ah I gotcha, makes sense. I just used yours as an example because it seemed to fit with the relevent discussions in this thread. I'm a fan of very limited rules and more restricted ones like standard OU. Wasn't trying to make STABmons look bad in any way, it's a fun meta. : )

 

[ntiller]

Everything in OM is run independently from Smogon's standard for banning, thus it depends more on the metagame leader's philosophy on banning. I personally try to stay away from anything that would add a level of complexity that could make Balanced Hackmons take longer to explain to prospective new players. (I.E., banning OHKO moves instead of banning OHKO + No Guard, or banning perfect Wonder Guard Combos, or the complex bans proposed in the extreme stall debate).

With regards to trapping, I feel very similar to the sentiments articulated by Redless. Ability trapping's ban was in response to a team archetype wherein everyone ran Shadow Tag and the lead ran Trickscarf, instantly deciding the match based on the lead matchup.



Apologies for not keeping up with the Mold Breaker discussion. At this point I'd rather wait the week until X Y comes out than make any hasty decisions. That being said, It's great to see you back.

I'm just going to point out that the Shadow Tag team kinda sucked. It is a relic of an era where most leads were pretty much dedicated to laying hazards as efficiently as possible and not much else. Trap Scarf lead loses to mail, uturn, a good attacking move, imposter, baton pass, etc. My last 3 BH teams all would crush that team without even taking its existence into account during teambuilding (baton pass lead, imposter lead, lead with U-turn). While I agree that it was not healthy for the meta, I think Shadow Tag could easily be restricted to one user per team in Gen 6, if such a thing is not imbalanced. As far as complex bans go, this one would be fairly easy to understand and remember- it doesn't reference more than one mon/move/item/ability specifically and it is at least somewhat intuitive.

 

[Arcticblast]

If you say that team sucked, go play against it with a common team from the Shadow Tag metagame. If it sucked so much, why would Shadow Tag have been banned?

That post is about 93% bullshit. The metagame was different then, don't talk out of your ass like it wasn't.

Also, when's the last time you OHKOd a lead Lugia exactly?

 

[ntiller]

If you say that team sucked, go play against it with a common team from the Shadow Tag metagame. If it sucked so much, why would Shadow Tag have been banned?

That post is about 93% bullshit. The metagame was different then, don't talk out of your ass like it wasn't.

Also, when's the last time you OHKOd a lead Lugia exactly?

Perhaps I was not clear. What I meant was that if Shadow Tag was unbanned, the mono Shadow Tag team would suck in today's meta. Yes, it was pretty good in the meta it was in, but today answers to it are fairly common and it's not even a part of the meta. The only reason it was good back then was because the meta was less developed- not because ways to deal with it without putting yourself at a disadvantage versus many non-Shadow Tag teams did not exist. While I do agree that BH is better off without such a team existing, I don't think it would be overpowered. I would liken it to the Dredge archetype in MtG, which while not particularly fun to play against, does not break the format and is not banned in legacy/vintage (sorry if you don't play MtG, this was the best example I could think of).

 

[nyph]

Perhaps I was not clear. What I meant was that if Shadow Tag was unbanned, the mono Shadow Tag team would suck in today's meta. Yes, it was pretty good in the meta it was in, but today answers to it are fairly common and it's not even a part of the meta. The only reason it was good back then was because the meta was less developed- not because ways to deal with it without putting yourself at a disadvantage versus many non-Shadow Tag teams did not exist. While I do agree that BH is better off without such a team existing, I don't think it would be overpowered. I would liken it to the Dredge archetype in MtG, which while not particularly fun to play against, does not break the format and is not banned in legacy/vintage (sorry if you don't play MtG, this was the best example I could think of).

Lol, that team would still easily destroy most teams in todays meta, the only significant difference that might make it worse in todays meta is that prankster sub leads are a lot more common. The team could be modified to run taunt on lead lugia or whatever to get around that though. The team worked a lot better in practice than in theory, because it could work around all sorts of potential counters to it. Iirc, I once set up on a +1 adaptability latios spacial rend (vs verbatim), and that is pretty much one of the worse moves to set up on too (high crit, low pp).

Seriously, if you want to theorymon, one modification (running whirlwind/dragontail on lead), would make any lead counter useless anyway, and would decide the game based on what mon gets sent out by whirlwind.

 

[Redless]

I think Shadow Tag could easily be restricted to one user per team in Gen 6, if such a thing is not imbalanced.

It is.

Also arena trap.

In terms of banning, I think we can all agree that this sort of thing is ban worthy off the bat, at least if we want a BH meta that resembles that of today.
I am interested in the arguements about the shadow pass teams and whether or not they are good, though. In my opinion, they could be verrrry threatening with a few modifications, especially the ones that get around unaware and prankster and things, a la that bp team that kl4ng was running. Indeed, with whirlwind to selectively trap things, this becomes a fun strategy indeed. It does seem a bit matchup based, though.

 

[Pikachuun]

In address to the three leads in ntiller's post, and Prankster leads, only two work. Baton Pass? Perish Song gets passed. Imposter? Cancels out Shadow Tag, preventing you from trapping and ko'ing with Perish Song. Prankster? Magic Coat says hi to your Prankster Taunt/Spore, and the Shadow Tag user could even Taunt back if they have Mental Herb/Lum Berry for the respective threats to them. U-turn is the only one that consistently works. Perishtrappers are extremely annoying, and, in the case of Shadow Tag, extremely viable. Just one can reduce an entire team to rubble when unprepared.

 

[nyph]

I think that going in to gen 6, all balanced hackmons bans except wonder guard and ohko moves should be removed. So huge/pure power, shadow tag and arena trap should at least be tested. Pure power might not be nearly as strong for all we know, with the existance of fur coat. Also trapping mechanics might be different. Plus it will be fun to play old-school(lol) style BH for a bit anyway.

 

[PlatypusVenom]

I think that going in to gen 6, all balanced hackmons bans except wonder guard and ohko moves should be removed. So huge/pure power, shadow tag and arena trap should at least be tested. Pure power might not be nearly as strong for all we know, with the existance of fur coat. Also trapping mechanics might be different. Plus it will be fun to play old-school(lol) style BH for a bit anyway.

Hello everybody. I've been reading around a bit, and yes, I strongly think that we should at least give most of the bans/clauses a chance before we shove them in a dark room, lock the door, and throw away the key. Few things such as Wonder Guard (perhaps only that) should be banned so far. Everything else such as trapping, mold breaker, p/h power, and ohko moves should just be left alone until we can better assess the situation. Who knows what more X and Y will add? Maybe even checks for all those mentioned above. Either way, we should just keep an eye on the meta before everything gets locked up. I'm not saying we should not ever ban any of these, because this is Balanced Hackmons, but we just need to wait.

 

[Redless]

If we are going that hardcore, why not just not start with BH, and instead only implement pure hacks. We can test from there, and enjoy playing "old school" BH, ie H without the B.

 

[PlatypusVenom]

If we are going that hardcore, why not just not start with BH, and instead only implement pure hacks. We can test from there, and enjoy playing "old school" BH, ie H without the B.

Actually, that is a great idea. Just keep BH as is and test the new stuff both there and in standard Hackmons for a playtest with no bans. Then we can see what to ban after.

 

[ntiller]

In address to the three leads in ntiller's post, and Prankster leads, only two work. Baton Pass? Perish Song gets passed. Imposter? Cancels out Shadow Tag, preventing you from trapping and ko'ing with Perish Song. Prankster? Magic Coat says hi to your Prankster Taunt/Spore, and the Shadow Tag user could even Taunt back if they have Mental Herb/Lum Berry for the respective threats to them. U-turn is the only one that consistently works. Perishtrappers are extremely annoying, and, in the case of Shadow Tag, extremely viable. Just one can reduce an entire team to rubble when unprepared.

Yeah, I agree perish trapping would be very strong. I just don't think Mono Shadow Tag with trick scarf lead would be. If anyone wants to test a Shadow Tag team against me, let me know. I would probably use my Chansey lead team.

 

[Arcticblast]

No talk about Gen6 abilities/mechanics/etc. here, please.

 

[PokemonMasterDebater]

No talk about Gen6 abilities/mechanics/etc. here, please.

Why not? I understand this isn't the place for speculation about game mechanics/Pokemon/etc, but what would be wrong with posts that talk about confirmed information that are focused on BH?

Also, if this isn't the time to talk about Gen6 BH, when is? Should we wait until the games' official release date, or until Gen6 BH begins getting implemented on PS? Or some other point when we know everything about mechanics/abilities/etc?

 

[Arcticblast]

Perhaps this will be better:

Do not discuss aspects of the game not officially confirmed by Nintendo. This includes anything not found on the XY site including base stats, but does not include the Fairy type, confirmed MegaEvolutions and their possible impact on the game (we don't know how they'll work yet, so assume they can only use their standard abilities and MegaStones), etc. Decent rule of thumb - if you got it from the spoilers thread in Orange Islands, don't post it here.