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Gen V Balanced Hackmons

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hey guyzz been using these sets 4 a lot of laughs and sweeps on many pokemon
1)swinub with sturdy endeavour protect leech seed(it kills all pokes cept grass types) hail. nothing can kill it apart from priority or toxic as it is immune to both weathers and cannot be walled by ferro(hail)
also rockhead archeops with headsmash and a scarf=OP
 
dragons said:
hey guyzz been using these sets 4 a lot of laughs and sweeps on many pokemon
1)swinub with sturdy endeavour protect leech seed(it kills all pokes cept grass types) hail. nothing can kill it apart from priority or toxic as it is immune to both weathers and cannot be walled by ferro(hail)
also rockhead archeops with headsmash and a scarf=OP
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The F.E.A.R. Swinub set can work okay in some situations but against a ghost like Giratina, or an Ice ghost like Froslass, endeavour won't touch them. In addition, if the said target has Magic Bounce or Magic Guard, it won't be affected by the Leech Seed. Plenty can kill it aside from Priority or Toxic, including what I mentioned above, and Taunt, Skill Swap, and more.

Magic Guard Archeops is superior in all ways to Rockhead, because Magic Guard prevents recoil damage and allows you to switch into hazards freely, and be immune to status. Killerchops, as it's been coined by Flint I believe, is a formidable force that can sweep unprepared teams with relative ease. Some counters are prankster Destiny Bond and Imposter.

dragons said:
also hazard sett up followed by roar + prankster deoxys s = gg most ogf the time since deo s is too friggin fast
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Prankster Deo-S is easily stopped by any Magic Bouncer. Plus Prankster doesn't need a fast Pokemon to be useful, as speed only matters if you are against another priority user or prankster.
 
bobbyvaporeon said:
Never ever use Rock Head. Always use Magic Guard, as it does the exact same thing but with hazards and status.
Also try using a Lum Berry in the last slot, because The scarf isn't useful at all.
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No need to use Lum Berry when you have Toxic Orb.

If any of you are Unaware that Mold Breaker is supposed to ignore Unaware, (I actually meant to say Unaware twice) you'll be depressed to know that it's been fixed (or happy if you hate balance and stall) Mold Breaker sweepers will now dominate the metagame, having basically no counters except dedicated ones, the bad part is that because of BH's random nature, creating a dedicated counter to them reliably is impossible.

1. They cannot be stopped by Imposter with Judgment and a held plate.
2. They can ignore Magic Bounce, so they will be able to spore threats with ease, set up hazards, and create pressure through the combination of offense and status moves.
3. Because of this, Unaware Pokemon will likely be less common, and if that happens, offense will dominate the metagame. You'll see lots of sets such as Choice Scarf Contrary Kyurem-W and Poison Heal Sweepers.

Since the metagame is going to revolve around offense rather than stall, stalls only hope is to use Prankster Heartswappers/Destiny Bonders/Sporers and whatnot. Imposters will run rampant and Offensive Poison Heal will truly dominate the meta. It's probably that with this fix, Magic Bounce will not be severely hindered with Mold Breaker everywhere. With the rise of Contrary, Unaware sweepers such as Kyogre will be used against them with Quiver Dance and other boosting moves. As for support moves, Safeguard, Magic Coat, Hazards, Taunt, Rapid Spin, and Heal Bell will be used often, the newest addition being Safegard because status will be even more common with Mold Breaker everywhere.

Me and Keep it Playful were discussing about a possible counter to a Mold Breaker sweeper, the conclusion was that it's almost impossible to break and unhealthy for the metagame.

Moldy shouldn't have been fixed!! (Ferrothorn) (M) @ Leftovers/Mental Herb
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
Sassy Nature
- Substitute
- Taunt/Magic Coat
- Destiny Bond
- Baton Pass

With this set, you can stop a Mold Breaker sweeper from ripping your team apart, Mental Herb allows you to stop Taunts whereas Leftovers can greatly aid in supporting your team with sub-passes. The choice between Taunt and Magic Coat is debatable, Magic Coat works well because you can bounce back Spores/Taunts/Hazards instead of preventing them, Taunt only prevents them from using Spores/Taunts/Hazards but will stop them from using it for 3 turns.

In my opinion (and a lot of other BH players), Mold Breaker should either not ignore Unaware or become banned.
 
I don't believe that the metagame will stabilize because with Unaware gone the "balance" of Balanced Hackmons is gone. I know that I'm using theorymon because it just got fixed but I believe that the metagame where boosting had potential but could be stopped often with proper methods will be much more difficult to stop consistently. I fear Mold Breaker will be far too centralizing as Wonder Guard is to Pure Hackmons.
 
the metagame WILL stabilize, even if it stabilizes at an undesirable meta... let that happen before you scream for a ban of something that isnt absurdly clearly broken
 
Or you could just, you know, switch in something that can take a hit and either KO it in return or phaze it out... BH might not be OU, but stuff like SD Terrakion isn't stopped by bringing in a Quagsire, it's stopped by bringing in something that can either take a hit and KO it or revenge kill it.

I understand that BH consists of threats that are harder to wall, but Unaware shouldn't be the only thing you use to stop sweepers. Something like SS Giratina-O probably won't be using Close Combat, and a Chansey can take a +2 Aura Sphere. Magic Guard Archeops can't beat everything - even LO Head Smash gets walled by a Giratina. Alternatively, use offensive pressure from stuff like Ho-Oh in Sun and stop your opponent from setting up in the first place.
 
Imanalt said:
the metagame WILL stabilize, even if it stabilizes at an undesirable meta... let that happen before you scream for a ban of something that isnt absurdly clearly broken
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It will stabilize at some point, but seeing as this change is quite massive I think it's worth discussing the danger that mold breaker sweepers pose at the current time to start evaluating whether or not it merits a ban instead of waiting. Take it as kind of like Thundurus-I being dropped to OU. Discussion of its effect on the meta should be had prior to the suspect test.


Arcticblast said:
Or you could just, you know, switch in something that can take a hit and either KO it in return or phaze it out... BH might not be OU, but stuff like SD Terrakion isn't stopped by bringing in a Quagsire, it's stopped by bringing in something that can either take a hit and KO it or revenge kill it.
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KOing something at +0 in BH is pretty hard when everything has max bulk. The poke on the other side on the other hand, while you switched in, has set-up with more powerful set-up moves than swords dance at its disposal, making killing you far, far easier.


Arcticblast said:
I understand that BH consists of threats that are harder to wall, but Unaware shouldn't be the only thing you use to stop sweepers. Something like SS Giratina-O probably won't be using Close Combat, and a Chansey can take a +2 Aura Sphere. Magic Guard Archeops can't beat everything - even LO Head Smash gets walled by a Giratina. Alternatively, use offensive pressure from stuff like Ho-Oh in Sun and stop your opponent from setting up in the first place.
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Except Secret Sword exists.
And is the most common second attacking move on ghost Judgment sets.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 468-551 (92.85 - 109.32%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
Wouldn't exactly say that it's completely walled seeing as all Archeops use smash and most are adamant.


As for my opinion on this, I agree that we should give the meta some time to locate the most potent sets given this change. At a glance, I can see things like this becoming prominent in the current metagame in its first stages:

Giratina-O
Ghost Plate
Mold Breaker
- Shell Smash
- Judgment
- Secret Sword
- Spore / Taunt / Magic Coat

Pretty much walls the average Imposter and destroys anything slower than it after a boost. It also has great bulk which means that it can set-up multiple times during the match. Spore and Taunt pretty much stop any prank on switch-in. Very hard to wall.

Chansey
Spooky Plate
Imposter
- Usual chans moves and stuff

This can stop the aforementioned set, though if it loses the speed tie it's left in a bad situation.

Contrary sweepers and priority sweepers will probably also attempt to abuse the meta in its current state, which means Unaware isn't quite dead yet. Will be interesting to see what rises to the top in the current meta.
 
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Adrian Marin said:
Mold Breaker should either not ignore Unaware or become banned.
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Mold Breaker not ignoring Unaware was a glitch, and reverting back to the past implementation will NEVER be an option.

As for banning Mold Breaker itself, I don't see the shift towards a more offensive centric metagame as being intrinsically broken so for now I'm going to say no.
 
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I'd definitely give a week or two. I'm not entirely enjoying the fix, but that's mostly because the current state of flux, which is pretty insane. Offense is a bit more potent, but that in turn makes it harder to set-up if set-up free offense is present against you such as, say, Choice Band Entei.

But, if the problem turns out that it's moreso that Mold Breakers can fling Spores willy-nilly and then set-up in completely safely then that they're hard to stop once they get set-up, we might want to look at Sleep Clause. Yesterday and earlier didn't need it once you knew how to deal with it, but that might change.

But again, let's wait a little bit.
 
I would actually really like to play with sleep clause. I never really liked how anything can run spore and there is nothing you can do about it. No, I will not switch my magic bounce giratina into gengar. That doesn't mean it can't spore me. It is one of the really annoying things about the tier. Alternatively, ban spore. It isn't the best idea necessarily, but it seriously nerfs both poison heal and mold breaker, which are both somewhat overpowered. I know it's a pretty radical change to the metagame, but I would kind of like to test it out before it is cast aside. Sleep would still be usable in the form of dark void and such, but I feel the reduced accuracy would really help deal with the mind boggling mechanism of perfectly accurate decapitation of a pokemon (especially with gen 5 sleep mechanics.)

I'd like to see a suspect test proposal thread and then a suspect test. If Verbatim would allow it, that is. Just for reference I would be more than happy to organize that.
 
I agree, I just hate spore so much. It just is there every time you at like +6 and about to make a sweep, some prankster spore user comes and puts you to sleep then proceeds to kill you if you don't switch out. I don't like switching out really as it is a waste of all my efforts to raise my stats and I think they should put a sleep clause or at least try it out.

On another note, I always lead with my trusty deoxys d,

Deoxys-D Lum Berry
Simple
-Amnesia
-Iron Defense
-Agility
-Baton Pass

This is a great set, I can predict if the opponent will use a special or physical move then shut it down using the appropriate Defense booster, then proceed to do the other one, then finally agility until I baton pass it to deoxys-s

Deoxys-S Leftovers
Contrary
-Psycho Boost
-Draco Meteor
-V-Create
-Baton Pass

All my pokemon have baton pass so i can keep my stats and I usually baton pass to deoxys s from d as it is very fast and can then raise its attack stats as well as keeping its boosted defences. Usually I can sweep 1 or 2, sometimes the whole team if it isn't ready to deal with it, but I baton pass to my other pokemon to continue the sweep. I have only used this team for 2 days so far but these are my main two who work very well
 
Prankster Haze is another option against Mold Breaker sweepers for those who don't want to resort to Destiny Bond. If affraid of Spore just setup a Subs, then resort to Haze.

Just based on theorymoning i don't think Mold Breaker should be banned or something, i would be more according with Sleep Clause than that, but even "Spore everything" i think it's managable.
 
Deoxys-S @ Expert belt
Timid
Max EV's on everything obviously lol.
Bad Dreams
~Spore
~Ice beam
~Psystrike
~Blue Flare

Bad Dreams Spore Deoxys Speed is so good because there isn't sleep clause. Bad Dreams gets a lot of residual damage on things and thanks to Dexoys Speeds sky high speed stat not a lot of things will be able to outspeed it, and it's pretty bulky too. The moves are just there as attacking options as after Spore they rack up a lot of damage. This is a pretty annoying set overall lol.
 
iliekmudkipz123456789 said:
Deoxys-S @ Expert belt
Timid
Max EV's on everything obviously lol.
Bad Dreams
~Spore
~Ice beam
~Psystrike
~Blue Flare

Bad Dreams Spore Deoxys Speed is so good because there isn't sleep clause. Bad Dreams gets a lot of residual damage on things and thanks to Dexoys Speeds sky high speed stat not a lot of things will be able to outspeed it, and it's pretty bulky too. The moves are just there as attacking options as after Spore they rack up a lot of damage. This is a pretty annoying set overall lol.
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Deoxys-S has horrible attacking stats in BH. Not only that, this set is flat out walled by anything with Magic Bounce, Status Orb users, and Magic Coat users, in addition to being countered by every Prankster user on the face of the earth. Not as good of a poke as you think.
 
Trick Mold Breaker working on Arceus Plate + Multitype was a glitch too or no?
If yes, was it fixed?
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It's not a glitch vincent, mold breaker trick is the only way you can remove a plate from multitype arceus.
Speaking of which, i would like to see a suspect test involving mold breaker, i've been thinking about it a lot(and even did a few tests in the ladder with it) and i think mold breaker is not healthy to the metagame as it is now, it's ability to ignore unaware can mean the end of stall as a playstyle in Balanced Hackmons due to said playstyle lacking the offensive pressure needed to stop mold breaker sweepers from setting up and cutting through the team like butter. No, i'm not saying mold breaker is uncounterable,as articblast pointed out you can just outright stop the sweepers from setting up in the first place by the use of offensive pressure, my point is it will eliminate the balance out of balanced hackmons by putting only offense againist offense, reducing that way the variety of sets that will be found in the tier and possibly getting rid of stall from the tier.
 
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Hollymon said:
I agree, I just hate spore so much. It just is there every time you at like +6 and about to make a sweep, some prankster spore user comes and puts you to sleep then proceeds to kill you if you don't switch out. I don't like switching out really as it is a waste of all my efforts to raise my stats and I think they should put a sleep clause or at least try it out.

On another note, I always lead with my trusty deoxys d,

Deoxys-D
Lum Berry
Simple
-Amnesia
-Iron Defense
-Agility
-Baton Pass

This is a great set, I can predict if the opponent will use a special or physical move then shut it down using the appropriate Defense booster, then proceed to do the other one, then finally agility until I baton pass it to deoxys-s

Deoxys-S
Leftovers
Contrary
-Psycho Boost
-Draco Meteor
-V-Create
-Baton Pass

All my pokemon have baton pass so i can keep my stats and I usually baton pass to deoxys s from d as it is very fast and can then raise its attack stats as well as keeping its boosted defences. Usually I can sweep 1 or 2, sometimes the whole team if it isn't ready to deal with it, but I baton pass to my other pokemon to continue the sweep. I have only used this team for 2 days so far but these are my main two who work very well
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So youre mad because you want people to just let you set up and sweep? Why dont you get mad when people dont concede immediately?

Seriously though, your team loses to Prankster Heart Swap, Unaware, Imposter, Spore, or any phazing move ever. Your problem is you expect everyone else to be playing with pokemon straight out of Little Cup and nobody is going to do that.
 
pCUBED said:
So youre mad because you want people to just let you set up and sweep? Why dont you get mad when people dont concede immediately?

Seriously though, your team loses to Prankster Heart Swap, Unaware, Imposter, Spore, or any phazing move ever. Your problem is you expect everyone else to be playing with pokemon straight out of Little Cup and nobody is going to do that.
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It's easy to point out others problems, takes more effort to give them advice. :3

Hollymon said:
I agree, I just hate spore so much. It just is there every time you at like +6 and about to make a sweep, some prankster spore user comes and puts you to sleep then proceeds to kill you if you don't switch out. I don't like switching out really as it is a waste of all my efforts to raise my stats and I think they should put a sleep clause or at least try it out.

On another note, I always lead with my trusty deoxys d,

Deoxys-D Lum Berry
Simple
-Amnesia
-Iron Defense
-Agility
-Baton Pass

This is a great set, I can predict if the opponent will use a special or physical move then shut it down using the appropriate Defense booster, then proceed to do the other one, then finally agility until I baton pass it to deoxys-s

Deoxys-S Leftovers
Contrary
-Psycho Boost
-Draco Meteor
-V-Create
-Baton Pass

All my pokemon have baton pass so i can keep my stats and I usually baton pass to deoxys s from d as it is very fast and can then raise its attack stats as well as keeping its boosted defences. Usually I can sweep 1 or 2, sometimes the whole team if it isn't ready to deal with it, but I baton pass to my other pokemon to continue the sweep. I have only used this team for 2 days so far but these are my main two who work very well
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Hollymon I'd recommend trying to modify your sweepers so that they can take Spores with little trouble. For example, on your Deoxys-S set, instead of having Baton Pass, you could have Sleep Talk. That way when they spore you, they think they've done you over but you get to blast off one of your three powerful moves at random!

Vital Spirit/Insomnia is one of the best counters to Spore, literally you cannot be put asleep, with or without Mold Breaker. I've used it on Tyranitar with some good success, but I'm sure there are other Pokemon that it would work well for too. Equipping Heal Bell/Aroma to your Pokemon that can't be put to sleep is very useful in waking the rest of your team up that's been put to sleep.

Prankster Substitute is also another way to stop Spore, it's so valuable I use it all the time to set up my sweeps. Hope this helps your game! : )
 
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