[Gen6] ORAS CAP Metagame Discussion Thread

cbrevan

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Approved by HeaLnDeaL

Hello, the long overdue CAP Metagame Discussion thread is finally here! The purpose of this thread is to discuss anything CAP Metagame related, from interesting sets you found to trends you've noticed in teams. This is also the place to talk about the impact of recent OU changes in regards to the CAP Metagame, as well as the additions of new CAP Pokemon. If its related to the CAP Metagame, chances are this is a good place to post it. Keep in mind that this thread is solely for the discussion of the CAP Metagame, and is NOT for discussing any CAP playtests that occur. There will be a dedicated thread for them in the main CAP forum when they occur. Additionally, don't discuss the viablility of the Pokemon here, save it for the actual CAP Metagame discussion thread. Also, this is not the thread for discussing bans or changes to CAP Pokemon, nor is this the thread to discuss the creation of CAP Pokemon for the CAP Metagame; remember, CAP projects are made for the OU Metagame, NOT the CAP Metagame. Lastly, this IS the CAP Metagame Disussion thread, so it should go without saying that any and all discussion should pertain solely to the CAP Metagame, don't compare the CAP Metagame to OU, don't suggest any additional tiers in CAP, such as CAP UU or CAP Ubers, and don't talk about dropping Ubers into the CAP Metagame. The CAP Metagame follows OU banlists, with the inclusion of the 19 additional CAP Metagame, and it will not be changing in the foreseeable future. If it ever comes into consideration or there is a need for a topic for it, the mods will be in charge of handling it.

In the interest of sparking discussion, some possible topics for discussion include:
  • Team and teach archetype discussion. Have you been dying to discuss stall, hyper offense, or balanced teams for the CAP meta? What about Sticky Web or Trick Room? Maybe even a team build like BOWS (Bulky Offense with Wish Support)? Playstyles of all sorts are welcome to be discussed.
  • Changes you've noticed in the metagame, or even trends you've been noticing.
  • General discussion about Pokemon you've been using, such as good sets you've found or even topics such as "should x mon be running x move over y move?". As long as you're not talking about the viability of the pokemon in regards to ranks (ie. S, A+, A, A-, etc.), any discussion of the Pokemon is fine. Try and keep discussion focused on the CAP Metagame though, and try not to talk about gimmicky stuff like Ferroseed or Florges. If its gimmicky or outclassed in OU, then chances are its still gimmicky and outclassed here.
Really, if its is related to the CAP Metagame, and is not cited as a banned topic, then this is probably a good place to post it. This is also a good place to ask questions about the metagame or the CAP pokemon, but we always suggest that you go on Pokemon Showdown! and play the actual CAP format first. There are also several other resources available for new users that we suggest, including the numerous analyses posted throughout the subforum, as well as threads such as the Viability Rankings or the Don't Use thread. Last but not least, we do have a room on Pokemon Showdown! called the CAP Project room. A lot of people active in the metagame hang out there, and there is generally someone there that can answer most questions about the CAP Metagame or CAP Project, so feel free to check us out. Really, there are no better resources then the people that actively play the metagame.

The 20 existing CAP Pokemon are the main difference between the CAP Metagame and any other metagame available, so here is a quick list of the CAP pokemon for reference, listed by order of creation.
Syclant
Ice / Bug
Compound Eyes / Mountaineer
HP 70 / Atk 116 / Def 70 / SpA 114 / SpD 64 / Spe 121 / BST 555

Revenankh
Ghost / Fighting
Shed Skin / Air Lock
HP 90 / Atk 105 / Def 90 / SpA 65 / SpD 110 / Spe 65 / BST 525

Pyroak
Fire / Grass
Rock Head / Battle Armor
HP 120 / Atk 70 / Def 105 / SpA 95 / SpD 90 / Spe 60 / BST 540

Fidgit
Poison / Ground
Persistent / Vital Spirit
HP 95 / Atk 76 / Def 109 / SpA 90 / SpD 80 / Spe 105 / BST555

Stratagem
Rock
Levitate / Technician
HP 90 / Atk 60 / Def 65 / SpA 120 / SpD 70 / Spe 130 / BST 535

Arghonaut
Water / Fighting
Unaware
HP 105 / Atk 110 / Def 95 / SpA 70 / SpD 100 /Spe 75 / BST 555

Kitsunoh
Steel / Ghost
Frisk / Limber
HP 80 / Atk 103 / Def 85 / SpA 55 / SpD 80 / Spe 110 / BST 513

Cyclohm
Electric / Dragon
Shield Dust / Static
HP 108 / Atk 60 / Def 118 / SpA 112 / SpD 70 / Spe 80 / BST 548

Colossoil
Dark / Ground
Rebound / Guts
HP 133 / Atk 122 / Def 72 / SpA 71 / SpD 72 / Spe 95 / BST 565

Krilowatt
Electric / Water
Trace / Magic Guard
HP 151 / Atk 84 / Def 73 / SpA 83 / SpD 74 / Spe 105 / BST 570

Voodoom
Fighting / Dark
Volt Absorb / Lightning Rod
HP 90 / Atk 85 / Def 80 / SpA 105 / SpD 80 / Spe 110 / BST 550

Tomohawk
Flying / Fighting
Intimidate / Prankster / Justified
HP 105 / Atk 60 / Def 90 / SpA 115 / SpD 80 / Spe 85 / BST 535

Necturna
Grass / Ghost
Forewarn / Telepathy
HP 64 / Atk 120 / Def 100 / SpA 85 / SpD 120 / Spe 81 / BST 570

Mollux
Fire / Poison
Dry Skin / Illuminate
HP 95 / Atk 45 / Def 83 / SpA 131 / SpD 105 / Spe 76 / BST 535

Aurumoth
Bug / Psychic
Weak Armor / No Guard / Illusiom
HP 110 / Atk 120 / Def 99 / SpA 117 / SpD 60 / Spe 94 / BST 600

Malaconda
Dark / Grass
Harvest / Infiltrator
HP 115 / Atk 100 / Def 60 / SpA 40 / SpD 130 / Spe 55 / BST 500

Cawmodore
Steel / Flying
Intimidate / Volt Absorb / Big Pecks
HP 50 / Atk 92 / Def 130 / SpA 65 / SpD 75 / Spe 118 / BST 530

Volkraken
Water / Fire
Analytic / Infiltrator / Pressure
HP 100 / Atk 45 / Def 80 / SpA 135 / SpD 100 / Spe 95 / BST 555

Plasmanta
Electric / Poison
Storm Drain / Vital Spirit / Telepathy
HP 60 / Atk 57 / Def 119 / SpA 131 / SpD 98 / Spe 100 / BST 565

Naviathan
Water / Steel
Water Veil / Heatproof / Light Metal
HP 103 / Atk 110 / Def 90 / SpA 95 / SpD 65 / Spe 97
 
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Have there been any new Necturna sets that anyone's tried? I'm tempted to do some testing and see what I can come up with, that isn't Sticky Web or Shell Smash (Geomancy maybe?)
 
Well...I suppose the most common team archetype right now is balanced.
http://pastebin.com/NEVH32yE

I suppose the team I created could be considered balanced. I've noticed that there are a few weaknesses in my team. Rocks, although typically not a major issue, could become one once pidgeot gets knocked out. I also find stratagem to be a bit difficult to deal with, but goth can take it out with energy ball. Any suggestions on ways to make this team better?


*2nd post yay*
 
Yeah, v-create and Dragon Ascent are popular for Band sets. Soak used to exist in gen 5 but it really sucks now.
 

cbrevan

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On Necturna, the most viable sets are Sticky Web, CB or LO, and physical boosting sets, primarily Shift Gear or Shell Smash. CB or LO sets generally take advantage the possible coverage moves Sketch can provide, noticeably Dragon Ascent, V-Create, Bolt Strike, and Sacred Fire. Special boosting sets are always outclassed by purely physical or mixed Shell Smash sets, there is nothing Geomancy can hit harder then Shell Smash, plus you can also use a LO on Shell Smash to deal just massive amounts of damage to everything. The main draw of Shift Gear is retaining your bulk while still being able to sweep, and most importantly, can run Colbur Berry to get past Sucker Punch Colossoil. You can use a more defensive set to make use of Necturna's good bulk and decent defensive typing, but its somewhat outclassed by Pyroak. Aside from those, there aren't really anything else that is really viable. You can use a hazard stacking set if you want, but it kind of sucks and is outclassed by a lot. Curse or Toxicng stalling may also seem fun, as well as Leech Seed, but again, they kind of suck and are outclassed. Soak is also just a bad set, all it can do us try to force switches, and relies a lot on prediction. Really, the best use of Necturna is either to use its good defensive stats and access to Sticky Web, or abuse its good 120 base attack. Lack of reliable recovery outside of Horn Leech really limits it on what it can do defensively.
 
Yeah, those sets I'm aware of, but I'm always looking for something new to use. At the moment I'm just kinda browsing through moves and see what I can use...
 
Curse/Recover Necturna, like Soak Necturna, is one of those things that sounds really cool, but is kind of terrible in practice. Necty just doesn't have the reliable, passive recovery or titanic bulk necessary to make a curse set really viable. It can be a fun counter-breaker, occasionally, and works well with a strong sub-passer like Tomo, but at the end of the day a Necturna at 50% HP just isn't going to get a lot of opportunities to use Recover. Personally, I'm all about LO-turna. You run enough speed to reliably beat AV-soil with your grass move of choice (Horn Leech is about a 20% chance to OHKO, Seed Bomb is 50%, and Power Whip is a clean OHKO but has that unfortunate accuracy) and then you just go to town with Dragon Ascent, which is by far and away one of the best attacking moves in the game.

As far as general comments, I'd just like to point out how terrifyingly viable rain is in the whole CAP-Used Meta. It's generally better than it gets credit for in the post-ORAS game, but CAP has some very unique tools that make it a pain to deal with, not least of which is Tomohawk, which is an absolute beast in the weather: spamming STAB Hurricanes, and able to throw up a priority rain dance in a pinch to clear the way for your Swift Swimmers. Cawmodore is also STUPIDLY good in rain, as its single weakness is negated and it becomes near impossible to take down. Find below an EXTREMELY relevant calc...

8 SpA Cyclohm Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore in Rain: 90-108 (37.1 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So yeah. Sadly, Scarf Mollux is still a clean OHKO, so it doesn't solve all your problems, but the fact of the matter is Rain effectively neuters the best Cawmodore counter in the game. It's an insanely good archetype.
 

cbrevan

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Like I said, Necturna is best off using Sticky Web or making use of the offensive potential Sticky Web can provide, everything else it can do is niche, gimmicky, outclassed, or all three.

I won't say much about Rain as I haven't used it recently, but I will say that it is extremely underused and appreciated and is more then simply slapping Politoed + 4 Swift Swimmers + Tomohawk onto a team. Rain has to balance defensive synergy with offensive potential that best makes use of the measly 8 turns of rain Politoed or Tomohawk provides, but when its done right, it can easily tear through teams. Also, here's a slightly more relevant calc for Cawmodore: 8 SpA Cyclohm Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cawmodore in Rain: 112-132 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO
Still pretty impressive if you ask me.

Another mon that I want to talk about that Pepsi slightly touched up on was Tomohawk, specifically offensive sets. I really do mean this when I say that Offensive LO Tomohawk is one of my favorite Pokemon. Aside from dedicated special walls like Chansey or Sylveon, it has basically zero switch ins. Hurricane just does crazy amounts of damage even to mons that resist it, and just tears through everything that does. You may hear people say "but it only has 70% accuracy", but that doesn't make it any less threatening, and given Tomohawk's bulk and access to priority Roost, it can usually afford to take a hit. The real icing on the cake are its two coverage moves, Earth Power and Nature Power. Being able to completely plow through otherwise checks like Cylclohm, Heatran, or Mollux is just great, and Flying + Ground coverage hits a good portion of the metagame. Nature Power is also an effective 80 bp special priority move thanks to Prankster, and allows Tomohawk to revenge kill stuff that otherwise be able to hit it hard, and can outright slaughter switch ins after a Hurricane. Really, Offensive Tomohawk is like the most underrated thing and sees little usage despite its ability to just completely wreck face.
 
I can attest to LO Tomohawk, everytime I face it, it catches me off guard and leaves massive holes in my teams. Nature Power is literally evil too.

I tried rain once when I was ranking Kabutops and Kingdra, but I had completely overlooked Cawmodore, and yeah, I'm gonna abuse that to all hell now. That sounds like way too much fun to pass up.
 
Rain is probably the best weather in CAP. I never actually thought so many CAPs can take advantage of it, and they aren't even Water types. Cawmodore is so annoying to take down, and I can imagine it must be hell to take it down in rain.

CAPs sometimes get some really good moves, that are underutilised. Probably Tomohawk's one of those Pokemon. Tomohawk isn't one-dimensional like Stratagem or Syclant, it's such a versatile Pokemon. I'm not that kind of battler that would try and use innovative sets, but it is really cool thinking about what you can do with these Pokemon.
 
Not sure if this is accurate, but I believe D rank implies, at least in OU, not to use the Pokemon as frequently as the higher-ranked ones, because there are better alternatives. Malaconda is one of them, and, for now, is the only CAP so far that is in that rank or below. It is outclassed by Colossoil as a bulky Dark-type because it has higher Attack, Speed, HP, and even Defense. Also, it's good at basketball.
 

cbrevan

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The "don't use list" during the end of XY actually included Pyroak and Cawmodore as well as Malaconda and Voodoom. Pyroak was actually bad back then because the metagame was skewed towards Flying spam a lot more then it was Fairy spam, with Mega Pinsir and Talonflame everywhere. People looked down on Cawmodore because the meta was simply overprepared for it. Cyclohm and Haze + Reflect Tomohawks were literally everywhere towards the end, and a lot of the mons it loves to set up on, like Chansey and other walls, where unpopular because Gothitelle was also popular. Its interesting how the meta shifted from Flying spam to Fairy spam about as soon as ORAS was released. Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Clefable, and Sylveon are everywhere in this metagame, and for good reason, as they can blow through most of the meta pretty well. The fact that Pyroak and Cawmodore have good matchups versus Fairies are probably the biggest reason why they're so good now.

Fairies are also the main reason why Voodoom and Malaconda are so bad right now. Voodoom is completely walled by Fairie types, all it can hope to do is Thunder Wave the switch in, and even then thats not that big of a deal for Sylveon or Clefable. Malaconda is just outright horrible in this metagame, its a special wall that can't even do its job well. Almost any physical attack, even resisted ones, are going to hit it for a lot of damage, and it's weak to a lot of special attackers. Harvest is even a double edge sword because you can just Knock Off the berry and deprive it of its main source of recovery. The only real things it can hope to do is spam Glare and maybe get a Rapid Spin off.
 

jas61292

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I think you are seriously undervaluing Malanconda, mainly cause the way you seem to be implying it should be used is not at all the best way to use it. This has pretty much been true the entirety of this generation. While it looks very much like a wall with Harvest and massive special bulk, in a metagame like this, it is actually by far best used as a bulky attacker/tank. Glare and Rapid Spin are still good options, but it should be used more for things like Knock Off, and U-Turn, as well as arguably being the best pursuit trapper there is against a most psychic and ghost types. It can come in on almost any special attacker that doesn't have STAB SE moves or Bug coverage, and either cripple something or turn out to gain switch advantage. Infiltrator is also by far its best ability right now. It really appreciates either a power boost or more reliable healing in a meta like this, and the ability to hit through subs and screens is a nice bonus.

Now, I'm not going to say it is a top of the tier Pokemon, but I keep seeing people using only the same defensive sets with it over and over, and while those used to be respectable, they are just not the best way to use the Pokemon in the current metagame.
 
Infiltrator is also by far its best ability right now. It really appreciates either a power boost or more reliable healing in a meta like this, and the ability to hit through subs and screens is a nice bonus.
Its quite interesting how the secondary ability of CAPs are much more useful than the primary ability in the current metagame. I think Krilowatt's an example, as literally no-one uses Trace anymore. Same with Stratagem, I think Levitate is only useful on Stratagem for the surprise factor.

I think you are seriously undervaluing Malanconda, mainly cause the way you seem to be implying it should be used is not at all the best way to use it.Infiltrator is also by far its best ability right now. It really appreciates either a power boost or more reliable healing in a meta like this, and the ability to hit through subs and screens is a nice bonus.
Of course jas would think Malaconda's better than everyone else thinks, he was Topic Leader for CAP 16. :)
 

cbrevan

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Levitate Stratagem isn't necessarily worse then Technician, as you basically exchange a boosted priority move and a chance for a 90 bp Hidden Power for a full immunity to one of your weaknesses. While Stratagem's relative frailness prevents it from capitalizing on this as much as others, it can still provide valuable switch in opportunities and can actively discourage the spamming of Ground type moves. Levitate also helps it beat some things 1v1, such as Focus Blast/Superpowerless Landorus and non Energy Ball Stratagem, and in general forces the opponent to forgo their super effective Ground STAB for a weaker coverage or STAB move. Most importantly, it provides an immunity to 3 out of 4 types of entry hazards, the most noticeable of which is Sticky Webs. You really can't go wrong with turning a weakness into an immunity, especially when its to something as common as Ground.
 

jas61292

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Same with Stratagem, I think Levitate is only useful on Stratagem for the surprise factor.
On the contrary, I have always seen Lavitate as the superior ability, and I think Technician is only really useful for the surprise factor (though the actual usage numbers are what will determine if it is actually surprising or not). Immunity to Ground, as well as ground based hazards, is absolutely huge for a Pokemon like Strategem that is easily worn down. It gives it actual switch-in opportunities, which it does not often get otherwise. On the other hand, Technician does very little for it. There are only 3 notable moves boosted by Technician (Ancientpower, Hidden Power, Vacuum Wave) and none of them are all that important. Ancientpower is a great STAB with Technician, but is only 5 BP higher than Paleo Wave. While the secondary effect is nice, it is also rare, and very low PP can easily be an issue. In fact, Paleo Wave is worth consideration even if you run Tech for that very reason. Hidden Power is a nice coverage move, but Strata is not exactly lacking for good moves. Its normal options of Rock/Ground/Fire/Grass are already enough for most things, so unless your team really struggles with Tomohawk or something, its usually not that important. Finally, there is Vacuum Wave, and honestly, that move is super overrated. Stratagem has huge speed, and the Tech boost to the move is only equivilant to giving it STAB. It is still a very weak priority move, and its only legitimate use is hitting other priority users (by which I mean Sucker Punch users since most others resist fighting) before they hit you. But since Sucker Punch is really the only thing it helps against, you can just take that turn to switch out for free, or to set up a substitute (a criminally underrated move on Strata).

So yeah, while Technician can net you a few surprise KOs with Strata, the extra vulnerability is just not something I consider worth it 90% of the time.
 

cbrevan

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They're both completely viable abilities, and its really a matter of your play style and personal preference then anything; they both help Stratagem in its role as a fast special attacker. As jas explained, Levitate is great for avoiding all entry hazards bar Stealth Rock, and in general plays with more super effective coverage then Technician (Paleo Wave / Earth Power / Fire Blast / Energy Ball). Technician relies more on neutral coverage and its fast priority then anything, and is more suited to clean up late game when everything else is weakened. I wouldn't undersell Vacuum Wave though; it still hits hard enough to revenge kill weakened mons coming off that 120 special attack and Life Orb. Its not ohkoing anything like Scizor's Bullet Punch or Talonflame's Brave Bird, and you shouldn't expect it to, but it can get that last bit of damage in when you really need it. It can also does like 42-50% to Cawmodore, which is always a nice thing.
 

HeaLnDeaL

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I personally like both abilities on Strategem, but I also want to briefly mention that one of the reasons why Technician even became popular was so that Strategem could run HP psychic / flying and be able to hit threats on the switch such as Tomohawk and Mega Venusaur.
 
Meh, I'll probably still go Technician. But as cbrevan said, it depends on your playing style and my playing style is a bit risky, powerful, etc.
 

jas61292

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Hey guys, I just deleted a couple of posts here, and I just wanted to let people know why. While I certainly don't want this forum to be uptight or anything, it is still a competitive discussion forum, and not a private message between friends, so if you are making a post, please make sure that it adds something to the conversation. This goes for just about any thread here, but it is especially relevant for discussion ones like this.
 

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