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Well, the only pokemon I feel could be potentially broken are Meditite or Murkrow.
  • Tite hits extremely hard and has great coverage as well as access to priority. Has few counters, not much more I can really say about it.
  • Murk also hits hard and has many different sets to run, and some of them behave very differently.We have the main ones I see, Mixkrow and (ugh) Swagkrow, but also defensive ones (without swagger) and even choice band and Calm Mind sets.
  • Well, of courses I have to state the obligatory Prankster + Confusion, which is never fun to deal with, and is actually more effective (imo) in LC. Reason being, Murkrow is a primary abuser and is also a powerhouse on its own. Definitely more abusable in LC, with a S-rank pokemon being the primary user.
Well, tbh, not that much stands out to be completely broken(maybe Meditite?), or at least not as obvious as Swirlix. I will admit the meta has become pretty stale as of late, and the teams have become pretty similar(at least on ladder), but some creativity exists(ie. Trubbish is pretty decent in the current meta, but was almost unseen in the Gligar/Swirlix meta).
 
I feel the same way as Macle. BJ and BJ+Sturdy as well as Knock Off are both in ok spots right now. Suspecting them would be a complete joke.

Meditite and Murkrow have no counters or any reason to not use them on serious teams. However they can still be dealt with within reason, and I don't think they're stupidly broken as of yet, I'll have to play more LC without Gligar/Swirlix before I can say for sure. Murkrow and Meditite both 2HKO nearly the whole tier with their wide coverage, most of the time not even needing Life Orb to be able to 2HKO a whole team. They both also have strong priority and a wide plethora of sets and moves to pick from to make them unpredictable. Murkrow was broken as HELL last generation but remained unbanned at the end of Gen V, but Berry Juice helps keep LO Krow from 2 shotting some things and Knock Off being more common keeps CM Krow in check. Idkkkkk need more time

fuk swagplay krow dumbest shitter ever ban from lc plz make me lose to trash
 
can we talk about gravity sticky web pls it sounds cool on paper but is probably awful
 
  • Fucking Meditite
Meditite can sweep literally the entire tier, with the right coverage. And with Drain Punch / Ice Punch / Thunder Punch / Bullet Punch, it can actually do a number to everything in the tier, even random shit like Yamask. It hits too hard imo, like, way too hard, and it was very nice with it banned last Generation.
  • Murkrow
As you've stated, it is very hard to wall, and this Gen it is better, with no more Steel resistance, it has no issues getting through Steels.

  • Berry Juice + Sturdy
This shit is insane, especially Tirtouga. It allows for guaranteed set up -> 100% health. Plus, it can't be stopped without only doing less than 50%, which not a lot of offensive Pokemon can do, but then they can't switch out. Plus, not even Fletchling can stop it, as Aqua Jet shits all over it. Very broken imo.
 
Although it should be a standard, I feel like I always have to have something healthy that reaches 17 speed or higher, just so I can deal with Meditite appropriately. With that in mind, I feel like Scarftite would be the eater of my world.

Murkrow is pretty darn silly in that it can run a full on Mixed Offense set, a Prankster Hax set, or even a SubAbuse set. I must say though, its biggest weakness is itself, because if it's running an LO or Sub set, it can wear itself down more than the opponent can.

Besides those two, I feel like the meta's pretty great. Tirtouga is the only other poke at this point that drives me bonkers, but it's definitely more than beatable. It's just annoying.

Oh oh oh. Swagplay = dumbdumbdumb

Relying on luck is already stupid, but Foul Play is an evil move and needs to gtfo. It's a prime example of something that isn't really common in LC, but should probably be gotten rid of before it's seen everywhere. I'm glad to see that most of our community has enough respect to not stoop that low, but you never know what could happen in the future.
 
Chesnaught said:
  • Fucking Meditite
Meditite can sweep literally the entire tier, with the right coverage. And with Drain Punch / Ice Punch / Thunder Punch / Bullet Punch, it can actually do a number to everything in the tier, even random shit like Yamask. It hits too hard imo, like, way too hard, and it was very nice with it banned last Generation.
  • Murkrow
As you've stated, it is very hard to wall, and this Gen it is better, with no more Steel resistance, it has no issues getting through Steels.

  • Berry Juice + Sturdy
This shit is insane, especially Tirtouga. It allows for guaranteed set up -> 100% health. Plus, it can't be stopped without only doing less than 50%, which not a lot of offensive Pokemon can do, but then they can't switch out. Plus, not even Fletchling can stop it, as Aqua Jet shits all over it. Very broken imo.
Click to expand...
There are 3 Sturdy Juice abusers that are noteworthy. Magnemite, Tirtouga, and Dwebble. Magnemite is slow and has plenty of weaknesses, so it's a good and durable pivot, nothing more. Dwebble is a good hazard setter but can be Taunted and Defogged which makes it immediately almost useless, gonna ignore its Shell Smash set since it sucks.
So now, Tirtouga. Saying it gets a free +2 and goes to 100% implies that hazards are down and it's not going to get taunted, statused, Knocked Off, Clear Smogged, Tricked, priority Encored, etc. Tirtouga is fairly difficult to set up. SS Tirtouga also is almost useless early game. Really, it is. All the fighting types will be healthy and retaining their Eviolite at this point so its only function is a late game sweeper. So yeah, it can clean up late game pretty well. Just about half the meta can do that. Tirtouga's weak pressure early game puts a damper on its excellent late game clean up. It's a good sweeper, but it requires a lot of team support because it can't OHKO most things carrying an Eviolite even at +2 attack (Foongus, Eviolite Meditite, fucking Evioliteless Bulkyfoo, Spritzee, Pawniard, Timburr, bulky Chinchou/Croag unless using shitty EQ, etc).
+2 212+ Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 76 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 13-16 (59 - 72.7%)
Fletchling can handle a 1 HP +2/+2 Tirtouga just fine, it doesn't get OHKO'd even with SR up.

Magnemite would be B tier if not for Berry Juice, and Dwebble would be close to garbage. With them, they become a strong pivot and hazard setter. Tirtouga becomes more reliable of a sweeper than it was in Gen 5, probably the best set up cleaner at the moment. But like I stated above, it has clear cut weaknesses. Please explain how Berry Juice is broken, this opinion seems common and I completely fail to even comprehend how it is remotely close to broken,

The meta is already beginning to see staleness (Corporal Levi lol fk u), and if you take away Berry Juice, we're going back to 5-6 Eviolites on every team. Horraaayyy.
 
I think Meditite is a huge monster but I think you guys should probably try a different approach - checking it. The point of a wall-breaker is that you can't switch in. There are Pokemon like this in all tiers - even ones that can switch into specific defensive-minded Pokemon. Meditite is something that, if you let it come in on something it's faster than (which isn't much, since most bulky ones are 12-13 Speed) it should have a fairly decent shot of 1-2HKOing something. I will admit that the Drain Punch recovery aspect puts Meditite over the edge, but there are lots of Pokemon that can come in and revenge it that are very threatening. There's obviously Murkrow, Fletchling, Taillow, Misdreavus, Honedge (which counters most variants), and I'm definitely forgetting something. There's also the hilarious option of Wynaut. Spritzee sort of works as a counter and so does Slowpoke, but with Knock Off flying around I think the safest bet is always to revenge kill it.

I honestly never have trouble with the Life Orb variant so I can't really speak to that.

With that in mind I don't think this meta is stale. Sure there are a couple things that will probably go, but there is huge room for innovation here and lots of undiscovered niche Pokemon. People don't need to spam Meditite and Murkrow to have effective teams even though they are the best at what they do.
 
I actually agree with Heysup here, I find Meditite to be okay. Yes, you can't switch in, but it has a lot of checks and even if I build a team without taking Meditite into account, I'll still always end up with 2 or 3 checks to it. It's not like it's checks struggle to fit into a team.

Murkrow is a fucking beast on the other hand. Like Meditite, it can deal serious damage and be difficult to switch into. However if you're against Meditite and you predict it's move right you can switch in a resist, then force it out easily. Murkrow, however has the advantage of 19 speed and STAB priority (Meditite's prio is really kind of weak). This means that whatever you switch into Krow is probably gonna die, unlike whatever you switch into Meditite.

Another thing I'd like to talk about is Misdreavus. I find this to be probably the 2nd most broken thing in the game right now, because of it's 19 speed and ability to sweep with minor support. With the right coverage and support move it can sweep past almost all it's checks. Dazzling Gleam means timburr and scraggy can no longer check it and it can run Sub/HP fighting to get past Porygon and Pawniard.

Of course, if Murkrow and Misdreavus were both to go, then I think Meditite would become seriously problematic, but that's all theorymon so I won't say too much about it.
 
I like how suddenly, the top 3 pokemon in lc are borderline broken. There was literally nothing other than a speed tie, which gligar doesnt even ohko, keeping missy from sweeping last gen, yet no one ever complained about it. The reason misdreavus has an easy time sweeping is because of meditite. Its an excellent wall, and can force tite out. It still loses to the same things, so the sudden call for broken really concerns me, seeing as neither gligar nor swirlix were ever walling it or stopping it from setting up or what.
 
The problem with Missy is that because of the absolute rampant usage of Knock Off, it has less opportunity to switch into the Fighting-type pokes it's normally used to being able to handle. You essentially have to switch it in on something ordinary or use it to revenge. It's still super good though, but I see why some would be afraid to use it. I personally still love using her.
 
The only reason why Misdreavus isn't broken is because of Knock Off. It keeps Missy from setting up on a lot of things, and makes switching her in a lot harder. If Knock Off was still 20 BP then Missy could run Berry Juice with possibly Substitute, which is one of the things that Gligar had over Missy that pushed it over the edge, apart from stronger dual stab and almost equal physical bulk without Eviolite. Berry Juice gives a much higher effective health pool than Eviolite, and without being able to effectively use it, I don't think Misdreavus will ever be broken.
 
Missy would definitely be broken without knock off. It would counter many more common things (mienfoo is a big one here). Anyway, the only thing I think is broken is:
Murkrow:
damn I hate this thing. With the coverage to decimate pretty much everything with MixKrow, the bulk to to damage and recover it with EvioKrow, HazeCrows walling ability...aaaargh. Arguably, SR wears down LO dependent sets like MixKrow, but an effective one can go in at the beginning and murder the opponent's lead and possibly more.

If I had to think of something else, I'd probably say SturdyJuice due to the durability it gives things like Tirtouga and Magnemite.
 
Firstly, countering several pokemon does not broken pokemon make PumpHead.

blarajan Misdreavus had Dazzling Gleam before Gligar and Swirlix ban, and even before Yanma and Tangela ban. Not to mention it isnt in the same boat as Meditite is, where without a need for a coverage move it can run something else (no swirl, no need for bp, so you can run thunderpunch). Nothing stopped Misdreavus from running dazzling gleam, other than like, weird eviolite icy wind+pain split sets (which relied on coinflips anyway). Scarf sets ran both dazzling gleam and icy wind, other than a rare np+trick (which usually ran dazzling gleam anyway). So i fail to see how the sudden introduction of a move it already used commonly somehow makes it broken, especially when the move iso only like 80 BP.

Not to mention that most of the time you want to burn a fighting type anyway unless its timburr. And there arent any dark types who you want gone that are hit harder by dazzling gleam, other than like mixcrow, but even then a burn is usually safest in case of any other switchin. Fairy+ghost coverage is good, but it is in no way broken, 19 speed or not.
 
blarajan said:
That's probably because you misunderstood the post. I meant with XY Misdreavus compared to BW Misdreavus. If XY Misdreavus is broken (it's not) it's due to Dazzling Gleam.
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Ok, that makes a ton more sense! If Misdreavus ever gets banned though, I think that it would not be because of any sort of "brokeness." Instead it would have Gligar syndrome where the teambuilding process would be, "why not use Misdreavus."
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As to sturdyjuice arguments, I think a lot of people would agree that it is in no way broken nor centralizing, two key components for a possible ban imo. I would personally like a lot more discussion on this, as it would probably help stem the flow of a lot of new player arguments, and bring light into the two sides of LC: Ban juice or no ban juice. I think that Berry juice, and especially Sturdy juice, change the metagame in a positive way. yeah, it sucks to face one and lose to it because you hit it with a supereffective move that brought it back to full health. However it offers new ways to approach problems, and that problem being how can I break sturdy without breaking 50%. Not to mention the rampant use of knock off keeps it in check. It makes people think differently, in almost the exact opposite of normal, i.e. hit supereffetively all the time.
 
I'm loving Berry Juice's existence and hope it never gets banned. It gives an options for pokes that don't have reliable recovery, but still leaving them more likely to be OHKO'd. It leaves us with another viable item option instead of just putting an Eviolite/Life Orb on EVERYTHING. If you can't deal with that recovery, you're probably using the wrong Pokemon for the situation.
 
ok but blarajan, with that statement, you're implying that bw lc was a perectly balanced metagame with no broken mons or potential broken mons whatsoever. that said, the same argument could be used for murkrow even more so because it pretty much got nothing in the tier shift, right? i think we all can agree that bw lc was not perfectly balanced because i hear so much shit about "not making xy like bw because it was stale". staleness does not come from balance, staleness comes from op threats curbing the meta. so, if bw lc wasn't balanced, if we want to go forward in a productive manner, we cannot use bw lc as a good reference towards building xy lc. not to mention, the metagame currently is not exactly how it was in bw, and the same pokemon can be seen as balanced or broken depending on the metagame it is within.
 
macle said:
hi

I was wondering what you guys feel are the 3 most potentially broken mons / items / moves atm. I'll share my current ones

  • meditite - extremely hard to counter. 2hkoes most of the metagame. Its speed its its biggest downside and often can be forced out with faster pokemon like missy and krow
  • Murkrow - extremely powerful mon. Mix sets do damage to every mon except like nosepass. Prankster Twave sets are just lame
  • Prankster + Confusion - if you have ever played my swag team, you know why
Click to expand...

Evio Meditite is quite possibly the biggest threat in the metagame. With amazing coverage it can 2HKO the entire tier easily. It has pretty good bulk as well being able to tank +2 Waterfalls from Tirtouga and one Shadow Ball from Evio missy if its at full health. Other sets like Scarf beat its potential checks like Murkrow. Meditite also isnt weak to any form of priority which really helps its longevity. Murkrow is murkrow. Dont really have to say much. It 2HKOs fucking everything. Prankster + Confusion makes me want to punch a baby. Also fuck macle for using it against me. (i still won cuz karma is a bitch)
 
No, I'm literally just saying "if Misdreavus is broken, it's probably because Dazzling Gleam pushed it over the edge." Misdreavus in BW was not broken in my opinion. Misdreavus gained Dazzling Gleam in XY, a very useful coverage move. If some people find Misdreavus broken, I think it would be for that reason.

I don't find it broken in either gen. I was just making a comment that attracted significantly more attention than anticipated. I'm not implying anything, nor do I really appreciate how you went about that.
 
what don't you appreciate? sorry i didn't mean to attack you if that's what you took out of it. if you meant to imply it or not, speaking for everyone in saying that missy wasn't broken in bw, so the only reason it could be considered broken now is dazzling gleam is a wrong assumption to make. i don't really have an opinion on whether missy is broken or not right now, but i'm just saying that bw missy has no merit in deciding whether xy missy is broken. i'm pretty sure that's the whole reason we unbanned everything that we did at the beginning of xy. a pokemon's standing in bw was not supposed to have any effect on it's standing for xy lc.
 
TCR said:
Ok, that makes a ton more sense! If Misdreavus ever gets banned though, I think that it would not be because of any sort of "brokeness." Instead it would have Gligar syndrome where the teambuilding process would be, "why not use Misdreavus."
.
As to sturdyjuice arguments, I think a lot of people would agree that it is in no way broken nor centralizing, two key components for a possible ban imo. I would personally like a lot more discussion on this, as it would probably help stem the flow of a lot of new player arguments, and bring light into the two sides of LC: Ban juice or no ban juice. I think that Berry juice, and especially Sturdy juice, change the metagame in a positive way. yeah, it sucks to face one and lose to it because you hit it with a supereffective move that brought it back to full health. However it offers new ways to approach problems, and that problem being how can I break sturdy without breaking 50%. Not to mention the rampant use of knock off keeps it in check. It makes people think differently, in almost the exact opposite of normal, i.e. hit supereffetively all the time.
Click to expand...

1.no ban juice. Although i was a rly big fan of the whole "slap eviolite on everything ever" strategy in gen 5, I still like to see variety within items and options.
2 .Sturdysmash isn't broken tbh. there are a lot of pokemon that halt it in it's tracks, like the majority off commonly run eviolite fighting types in LC being the biggest, and to a lesser extent the Lc grass types like foongus and lileep, who you have to rely on critting the unreliable stone miss to OHKO at +2
3. Sturdysmash is very hard to set up under normal circumstances. most teams run a bulky fighter to handle this and stop setup, or you could be like me and used the based cotton to encore you into a never ending setup storm
4. knock off
 
You're extrapolating a lot. I said nothing about the BW metagame. I literally just said "what makes XY Misdreavus so much better than BW Misdreavus is Dazzling Gleam." Nowhere did I imply that BW Misdreavus was not broken, or whatever the fuck you're going about. It's literally just me saying how amazing Dazzling Gleam is.

Fact: Dazzling Gleam allows Misdreavus to kill Scraggy and Murkrow in one moveslot, something it would have killed for last generation.

That does not mean it was not broken last generation if it was, nor is that slotting its brokenness in this generation due to the gaining of this characteristic from last generation. Once again, as literally as I can make this because apparently the slightest of sloppy sentences will turn into strangely construed paragraphs: Dazzling Gleam is amazing. That is all. I think I would know the reasons behind unbanning everything, and that BW tiering <> XY tiering, considering how I'm in charge of that.

Once again, for reiteration's sake: Dazzling Gleam on Misdreavus is incredible, and that's what would push it over the edge in my opinion.
 
I'm agreeing with blarajan about dazzling gleam being what makes Misdreavus so much better this generation, and that move more than makes up for the Knock Off buff. Missy has naturally good bulk so it still doesn't find it hard to switch in and set up on a range of mons, it just happens that it can't do that to fighting-types anymore. However, Dazzling Gleam makes it actually lose one of its best checks (Scraggy) and also makes Timburr a much more shaky counter. Murkrow also hates this move as it can't check it as reliably anymore (tbolt was pretty rare last gen).

Add this onto the unpredictability of whether it's carrying Dazzling Gleam or HP Fighting and also the unpredictability of any status move it is carrying, Misdreavus is, in my opinion, the most threating late-game set-up sweeper in LC right now.
 
I worded my previous post wrong. What I meant to say is with Misdreavus not having to deal with Knock Off, it arguably turns into a matter of overcentralization, facing something such as "Gligar syndrome." I agree with blarajan that Dazzling Gleam makes it quite good, and with it being able to stop things in it's tracks due to removing Knock Off, it is a serious threat. I wasn't around for Gen 5 LC, so I can't really talk from last gen's experience with Misdreavus.
(weird font because I typed this on a Word doc because smogon lags on my bad laptop)
 
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