General Suspect Discussion Thread

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Volcarona is not broken. You cannot dismiss its counters by saying they are "easy to take out" while simultaneously disregarding the fact that Volcarona loses half its health when it switches in to Stealth Rock. You also barely acknowledged the fact that Volcarona lacks many opportunities to set up: Politoed and Tornadus-T are not the only Pokemon it can't set up on. Instead of searching exclusively for hard Volcarona counters, perhaps you should consider that many good teams are naturally structured so as not to allow Volcarona to set up, which is just as important as carrying something such as Dragonite to counter it.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

After a Quiver Dance I don't think that will do much to Volcarona. Hitting it's low unboosted Defense is a better approach.

Don't forget that by using HP Rock, Heatran has to forgo HP Ice, and thus will have a harder time against Dragon-types. Stone Edge is better, but why you would use Stone Edge on Heatran? Only to counter Volcarona? Much better to use another thing to check him and use the moveslot for something like a coverage move or Stealth Rock :)

 

[Ningildo]

I would want to say something about that argument, but Eo said most of I wanted to say. But there are a few things I want to mention regardless.

A Volcarona at 50% health is just as threatening as one at 100% health. It still sets up on weakened Pokemon that can't do enough to it and it still resist the three most common priority moves in OU.

You do realize that you take 30% min from a LO Technician Mach Punch from Breloom, right? And since you seem to think that SR isn't a problem, have fun trying to set up and not lose 20% while doing so.

Scarfers exist. Terrakion and all ARE OHKO'd by +1 Fire Blast in the sun but...you need to go to +1 for that. At which point they will switch in and force you out.

Finally, stop switching between Life Orb and Lum Berry when saying how it bypasses certain pokemon. E.g. Saying it beats Blissey (due Lum ignoring status) and then mentioning it can bypass Gyarados/Salamence (LO). You can only carry one item after all...

Yes, Volcarona is a scary mon, but if you're gonna ignore nearly every bad point (SR weakness, reliance on sun for max power etc), then of course it is going to seem broken.

 

[X5Dragon]

I have been one of the most consistent users of offensive Volca (albiet with modest nature) and I can say for sure that it cannot be broken simply due to the fact it does not have complete coverage, it is walled by anything its Hidden Power doesn't cover and is very suspect to status seeing how it has no priority and it needs a spinner/bouncer on the team.

That being said, if you play him right he will sweep the opponent clean. 2 Years and a very proud Volca trainer ^_^

Edit: HP Ground is by far the superior option. Hits (BAN ME PLEASE)'s, tentacruels, Magnezones under the rain, Terrakions and Jirachis for super effective damage, all of which are sent regularly to stop the bug. HP Ice comes in second but I find killing Dragon when you have ice shard users to be meh.

 

[G-Von]

How has no one mentioned Salamence being broken? Max speed+ and attack with Moxie and DD/outrage/EQ/fire blast as a move set holding a lum berry screams "ban me!" unless you still have that scarfed pokemon with max speed and a speed boosting nature and base 101 speed or higher, it cannot be stopped. and not even all of them can hands down defeat this monster of a pokemon. wasnt this thing uber one gen too?

 

[Thorhammer]

Wobbuffet was uber in two past gens, yet is not even OU now. Many other Pokemon were uber in the past and yet are solidly OU. Ban status in past generations is completely irrelevant here.

 

[G-Von]

Wobbuffet was uber in two past gens, yet is not even OU now. Many other Pokemon were uber in the past and yet are solidly OU. Ban status in past generations is completely irrelevant here.

Salamence also did not have Moxie in the past. It wasn't until the BW2 Move Tutors he gained Moxie and Outrage on the same moveset legally. Wobbuffet can only take out 1-2 pokemon maximum per game which is why I'm surprised it ever got banned in the first place. For other pokemon, Lati@s were banned due to Soul Dew and are legal without it, which is understandable. Mew is a great pokemon, but it's typing sucks. Its so unpredictable but aside from that, it isn't impossible to take down by any means.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I thougth that ScarFmoxie Salamence would be a threat to watch for but I was wrong, this thing is very easy to revenge kill thanks to it's base 100 Speed (outspeed by Choice Scarfers with more than that) and weakness to Ice and Rock :) So I think that it doesn't deserve a ban.

 

[Thorhammer]

And many other Pokemon also got bonuses. As you observe, things are different now.

Lati@s were tested in DPPt without Soul Dew and yet still ultimately banned. The fact that Mew and Wobbuffet were banned in spite of what you say is only more evidence of the unreliability of past bans.

If you want to argue that a Pokemon is broken, the only aspect of its performance that matters is how it is at the present, so focus on that. Diverting discussion to past, now irrelevant metagames is only a meaningless distraction.

 

[G-Von]

I thougth that ScarFmoxie Salamence would be a threat to watch for but I was wrong, this thing is very easy to revenge kill thanks to it's base 100 Speed (outspeed by Choice Scarfers with more than that) and weakness to Ice and Rock :) So I think that it doesn't deserve a ban.

Not many choice Scarfers at that high of speed are common. Terrakion has to rely on Stone Edge to hit, Lati@s is viable, I guess Starmie is too. Possibly Thunderus-T and Landorus? Mamoswine has Ice Shard. 6 pokemon and some aren't even solid.

And many other Pokemon also got bonuses. As you observe, things are different now.

Lati@s were tested in DPPt without Soul Dew and yet still ultimately banned. The fact that Mew and Wobbuffet were banned in spite of what you say is only more evidence of the unreliability of past bans.

If you want to argue that a Pokemon is broken, the only aspect of its performance that matters is how it is at the present, so focus on that. Diverting discussion to past, now irrelevant metagames is only a meaningless distraction.

In the present? No problem. Like I said before, MoxieMence with Outrage is now legal. Throw a Lum Berry on him and let the terror rain on the metagame. (no pun intended) With the coverage I described before, I don't know what doesn't get OHKO'd after a DD and an attack boost after 1 kill except for maybe Bronzong.

 

[EonX]

I think you're forgetting defensive checks for Scarf MoxieMence (read: every defensive Steel type in the tier) Aside from Steel types, Landorus-T does a great job at holding MoxieMence down. It lets you send in death fodder and not pay a price since Intimidate will just cancel out Moxie. If Lando-T is at high enough health, it can go for the kill itself with Stone Edge. If it's not, a Steel type can easily handle it (Jirachi just happens to be a really nice Lando-T partner because of Wish)

DD sets get revenged by Ice Shard users and faster Scarfers (Terrakion, Latios, Keldeo, Infernape, Landorus-I, and Thundurus-T) Last time I checked, Mamoswine and those Choice Scarfers were perfectly viable. Don't forget the defensive checks either. Landorus-T still stands out as a bulky mon that doesn't have to rely on status to take out Mence. Intimidate makes the attack boost from DD null and void and forces Mence to switch out or try and break Lando-T. Most defensive Steels can still handle a +1 Outrage (though it will admittedly sting a fair bit) and hold on long enough to spare the intended revenge killer from any attacks.

 

[Mithril]

Just pointing out that MoxieMence with Outrage was legal as long as it did not carry Dragon Dance in BW1. So ScarfMoxie Mence with Outrage is really new.

 

[shrang]

Okay, I know everyone's talking about stuff like Genesect, Tornadus-T and friends right now, but I want to bring up some suspects that have been neglected. These will be controversial, so please, if you want to point out flaws in my reasoning or just argue with me, please do it civilly.

Wobbuffet:

A Pokemon that I really think has gone under the radar. It was Ubers last gen, and for very good reason. So basically, I have seen people asking "what changed (that is relevant) in BW that made Wobbuffet manageable?" I'm actually at a loss to answer this question a lot of the time and concede to myself that Wobbuffet is once again, underestimated like it was before it was actually banned in DPP. Basically, there are two basic answers. The first being "Encore nerf", and the second being "power creep". I understand the second reason, since the game has become more powerful and Wobbuffet is finding it harder to do what it does. However, the first reason I find absolutely ludicrous. The Encore nerf does not stop what Wobbuffet does, apart from allowing it to PP walls out of recovery moves, which isn't its main job anyway. What is Wobbuffet's main job? To trap, Encore unthreatening moves, then allow a setup sweeper to come in and set up on that free turn, as well as CounterCoating Choice users used to revenge kill your sweepers. It also has a secondary job of Encoring slower walls, Tickling them, then letting you kill the wall with Pursuit or Dugtrio. Now, from playtesting experience, I can say safely say that the Encore nerf does nothing to change this whatsoever. Since Wobbuffet is slower than a lot of Pokemon, you still get a 4 turn Encore if you Encore something faster than you, and if you're faster, you get a 3 turn Encore. For a lot of Pokemon, you only need 3 (1 - Encore turn, 2 - switching in sweeper, 3 - set up). If you Encored a status move like Thunder Wave or Toxic or Will-O-Wisp, you need 4 for Safeguard. For a 4 turn Encore, that is still enough. For a 3 turn Encore, that may not seem like enough, but keeping in mind for 3 turn Encores, Wobbuffet is faster than the opponent so you can just Encore yourself another 3 turns. The only real change is that Wobbuffet is burning up Encore faster than before, but Wobbuffet should hardly ever run out of Encore PP anyway. You can still trap and Tickle kill Ferrothorn with Dugtrio support even with the Encore nerf. You get three turns of Encore. You dedicate 1 turn to Encore, and 2 to Tickling. Once Encore ends, you just Encore it again. It generally goes from my playtesting experience. 1) Wobbuffet Encores, 2) -1 Def, 3), -2 Def, 4) Encore, ... 9) -6 Def, 10) Encore, 11) Duggy comes in, 12) Duggy uses SR, 13) Duggy OHKOs Ferrothorn. The only difference is that you need 4 Encore PP to trap and kill Ferrothorn instead of stuff like 2 Encore PP from before. The end result is still the same, you've removed an opposing defensive threat. Now onto the power creep argument. While yes, opposing Pokemon can kill Wobbuffet faster than before, limiting its utility, I still don't really think they're that strong to stop Wobbuffet doing what it does. It still avoids 2HKOs from stuff like Choice Scarf Infernape's Flare Blitz in the sun, which still shows its bulk. I remember in one of my matches, it took an EQ from Scarf Landorus in the sand, then proceed to survive an LO Crunch from Lucario to Encore it, then allowing me to bring in my own Lucario for the end-game sweep. It's still bulky enough to do what it does with a bulky spread.

So yeah, if you want to argue against these, please do it civilly.

 

[MMII]

I think I'm going to agree with Shrang concerning Wobbufett. Tickle-Pursuit/CounterCoating is a pretty cheap way to leave your opponent helpless to a sweeper. There isn't really any way to avoid it unless you have mad prediction skills. The free turn of set up may not seem impressive since most sweepers do that anyways, but Fett makes it MUCH easier to do and also can be used to set up a sweeper that would normally not be given the chance by the opponent's team.

I've already spoken about Gothitelle and how he can be built to take out whatever wall you want gone for your sweeper to do its thing. I'd personally like to see both of these trappers gone.

 

[BKC]

this is kinda tl;dr

i would be interested if you were to post logs from wcop which were decided "by matchup", as it seems to me, most games allegedly decided by matchup could have been avoided, or the matchup angle is overstated.

ok.

kokoloko vs. Oristeros
Oristeros uses a near carbon copy of Ojama's team that matches up very well against teams without spinners such as koko's. While koko admittedly could have played this a bit better, all Oristeros had to do was switch to the correct wall and wear him down with SR; really, the only way Oris could've lost this is if he didn't make the obvious moves.

Lamppost vs. panamaxis
I don't see how this game was won on anything but an advantageous team matchup. Lamp lost the weather war on the second turn, didn't make any spectacular plays, but was able to win thanks to a huge team advantage, as sun very rarely loses to rain.

IFM vs. Bloo
Rain offense almost always loses to sand stall. Bloo didn't have to make any big moves because he was at such a large advantage right from team preview, whereas IFM made several fantastic moves but just couldn't dig himself out of something he had no control over.

These are just a few examples, seeing as I don't have much time right now...I mean no disrespect at all to any of the players whose battles I used as examples with the comments I made about them, they're simply to help people understand how much of a factor team matchup plays.



To address your other points:

If matchup was such a guessing game and the most important factor as you put it, why are certain players so much more dominant than others in the BW tournament scene, or perhaps they are just really lucky with their matchups?

Because the best players aren't lucky with their matchups, they choose them based on what they know their opponent likes to use. There are several dominant BW tournament players that rarely make big plays [which, in my mind and many others' as well, is what really makes a player good], because they've prepared their team for their opponent so well that they don't have to. Team matchup shouldn't be so extreme that one style almost automatically loses to another [example -- the most powerful rain offense often cannot break a half-decent sand stall team, while sand stall teams usually stand no chance against Deoxys-D heavy offense]. That's why I'm backing yee's nomination of banning Tales / Toed / Deo-D, as I believe this significantly lowers the matchup factor and puts more emphasis on actual battling skill.

1. If it's a 50/50 guess, it's not skill. There are predictions that factor in more but not when referring to a coin flip.
2. Shed Shell Heatran w/ SR + Dragons sand teams beat sun 99% of the time.

O rly?

This statement alone shows that you lack some really crucial knowledge of the game. A 50/50 is not skill because it is a guessing game that doesn't have a right answer. Other forms of prediction factor in risk/reward, opposing player tendencies, and a few more things you seem sadly un-informed of.

As for the Shed Shell Heatran completely destroying sun thing...how does it not destroy sun? The only thing Heatran has to fear on sun teams is Dugtrio, and with Shed Shell, it can escape from that, letting it switch in for free whenever the hell it wants to throw around sun-boosted fire moves and phaze for SR damage. Maybe SS Tran doesn't beat sun teams literally 99% of the time because I doubt only 1% of players use Earthquake Venusaur, but you asking for proof on this is simply being petty; furthermore, EQ Saur is still rare, and a good Heatran user will scout out Venusaur's moveset through good switching, because if it runs EQ then it loses on coverage against something else and you should be able to counter it that way, and if it lacks EQ, it'll switch and you know Tran is safe to wall it for the rest of the game without fearing Dugtrio. As for Dragons giving sun teams trouble...this has been known for a very long time, and you asking for evidence on this just proves you're being pedantic.

On a side note, how about providing your own argument backed by your own evidence for once instead of always making generalisations and asking to see other people's proof?

pttp

are you seriously telling me that it is not his fault for being "extremely volcarona weak"? last time i checked volcarona is a top tier ou pokemon. its not one of those threats you dont account for like vaporean. if you make a volcarona weak team, you should be praising the lord when you enter a battle and your opponent doesnt have volcarona. you are just playing with fire at that point and if you are too stubborn to change your team at least check volcarona, thats entirely your fault. you can even stick a random ass terrakion on your team and youd be good to go. being weak to dugtrio + ninetails is also completely his fault. if it doesnt cross his mind that a ninetailes will be paired with a dugtrio, then i question his battling ability.

My team had Terrakion on it. I'll admit I didn't play the mid-game very well, but as soon as I saw team preview in that match, I knew I'd be very hard-pressed to win, even if I played better than him [which I did in the early-game, as even Lavos will tell you].

 

[peng]

Yeah lets not use my battle as an example of losses by team match-up please. His team was good, my team was bad and thats all there is to it. I didn't lose to team match-up, I lost because I changed shit in my team at the last minute and became weak to stuff I shouldn't have been.

My own fault, not the metagames.

edit: thanks

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Completely agreeing with shrang. What were we just discussing? Volcarona? Say wobuffet locks you in to stealth rock, switches to Volcarona, it sets up a qd, and THEN you get to switch to your counter. At that point, it's going to be +2, and pretty much everything that was being talked about to beat it at +1 is going to have a much tougher time at +2.

EDIT I am extremely stupid

Also, there might have been a power creep, what has gen 5 given us that can still actually cleanly Ohko wobbuffet? In this metagame, you might not get as many free encore turns, but one is plenty enough for things like Volcarona or dragonite.

 

[Thorhammer]

Completely agreeing with shrang. What were we just discussing? Volcarona? Say wobuffet locks you in to stealth rock, switches to Volcarona, it sets up a qd, and THEN you get to switch to your counter. At that point, it's going to be +2, and pretty much everything that was being talked about to beat it at +1 is going to have a much tougher time at +2.

Also, there might have been a power creep, what has gen 5 given us that can still actually cleanly Ohko Volcarona? In this metagame, you might not get as many free encore turns, but one is plenty enough for things like Volcarona or dragonite.

Uh... no, it doesn't.

Turn 1:
Heatran uses Stealth Rock!
Wobbuffet uses Encore!

Turn 2:
Heatran uses Stealth Rock!
Wobbuffet switches to Volcarona!

Turn 3:
Heatran switches to Terrakion!
Volcarona uses Quiver Dance!

Turn 4:
Terrakion uses Rock Slide!
Volcarona fainted!

Heatran may not fit the situation perfectly due to walling Volcarona so well but whatever. Leaving aside the question of "why the hell would you let Wobbuffet lock you into Stealth Rock", you can switch immediately when Volcarona comes in and get your response out as it reaches +1, just like for any other boosting sweeper. And responses can be quite decisive.

As for OHKOing Volcarona? It has 85/65/105 defenses and a 4x Stealth Rock weakness, as well as a vulnerability to Spikes. Any half-decent physical Rock-type attack will OHKO it, and entry hazards can easily lower its HP to 50% or less, making the KO even easier. Especially if you switch it in on an opponent that was just setting up Stealth Rock, as in your example.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

WHAT THE HELL WAS I THINKING. Disregard what I said about 2 turns of free setup. Also, when I was talking about power creep and ohkoing things, I was Trying to talk about something in generation 5 that could Ohko wobbuffet that we didnt have before. My brain just messed up hardcore.

 

[Danger Mouse]

I run Scarf Moxiemence myself, and though it is very good, it is not broken. First of all, Mamoswine and Weavile beat it effortlessly. Secondly, yes this thing will sweep entire teams but it needs those moxie boosts (it has to run +speed or scarf genesect will revenge it, so it has less initial power) so getting it in and sweeping can be tricky, especially since you often have to choose between locking yourself into Outrage and becoming revenge kill fodder, or using the weaker dragon claw and hope something bulky enough to take one doesn't come in.

 

[MMII]

Sadly, (or forunately) you only get one turn of set up with Fett. However, this is useful for fragile sweepers that normally have to rely on prediction to get the needed boost. It also helps againstoffensive teams that don't pack a check/counter to your sweeper because every member on the team would prevent it from ever setting up. Basically, you can predict all you want, once fett comes in a sweep will follow and that can be devastating.


OMG, Fett+Ditto sounds soooo cheap. Encore a set up move on a sweeper, let it max its stats, bring in Ditto, sweep.

 

[alexwolf]

BKC the third battle you showed wan't really lost due to match-up, but from some bad plays of the BU Breloom user. He saw that the opposing Gliscor has Facade, yet he tried to stay in the second time he brought him in, and this costed his Politoed 90% of his life for nothing. This is not good play, especially when he already had the opposing Ttar at 10% health.

 

[Lavos]

BKC the third battle you showed wan't really lost due to match-up, but from some bad plays of the BU Breloom user. He saw that the opposing Gliscor has Facade, yet he tried to stay in the second time he brought him in, and this costed his Politoed 90% of his life for nothing. This is not good play, especially when he already had the opposing Ttar at 10% health.

Nah, don't really see how BU Loom is going to beat SD Facade Gliscor. Seriously, IFM had nothing for Gliscor that could take repeated hits, and as BKC stated originally, sand stall does pretty well against rain offense in most cases. Every single one of IFM's Pokemon were met with a solid wall on Bloo's end. It would have been nearly impossible to win from IFM's perspective. Also, IFM couldn't have lost the weather war once Ttar was at 10%, because he had rocks up and Bloo lacked a spinner, so I don't see what your point is there.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Not many choice Scarfers at that high of speed are common. Terrakion has to rely on Stone Edge to hit, Lati@s is viable, I guess Starmie is too. Possibly Thunderus-T and Landorus? Mamoswine has Ice Shard. 6 pokemon and some aren't even solid.

Yes, that's a problem. For this reason that I generally use them with Choice Scarf. Maybe if weren't for threats like ScarfMoxie Salamence and +1 Quiver Dance Volcarona, I would run more effective sets.

I run Scarf Moxiemence myself, and though it is very good, it is not broken. First of all, Mamoswine and Weavile beat it effortlessly. Secondly, yes this thing will sweep entire teams but it needs those moxie boosts (it has to run +speed or scarf genesect will revenge it, so it has less initial power) so getting it in and sweeping can be tricky, especially since you often have to choose between locking yourself into Outrage and becoming revenge kill fodder, or using the weaker dragon claw and hope something bulky enough to take one doesn't come in.

Also you need to eliminate all opposing Steel-types before having fun sweeping the entire team with Outrage. Some non-Steel-types such as Hippowdon and Slowbro can even survive Outrage; they would also be eliminated. Mantaining Salamence alive while you do this is another already hard task, I know this because I've used Scarf Moxiemence during a time, and I couldn't always sweep with him, because it fainted before I could do all the things above.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Volcarona is not broken. You cannot dismiss its counters by saying they are "easy to take out" while simultaneously disregarding the fact that Volcarona loses half its health when it switches in to Stealth Rock. You also barely acknowledged the fact that Volcarona lacks many opportunities to set up: Politoed and Tornadus-T are not the only Pokemon it can't set up on. Instead of searching exclusively for hard Volcarona counters, perhaps you should consider that many good teams are naturally structured so as not to allow Volcarona to set up, which is just as important as carrying something such as Dragonite to counter it.

I find that if you have 1 (good check) + Ditto too, Volcarona is effectively covered.

I use a Bronzong that has NOTHING to touch Volc, and it's very effective-- of course, Volc is almost forced to switch in and go for a sweep when my Bronzong stays in to SR;

My answer is Terrakion, and even if it has giga drain and gets through Terrakion, Ditto walks all over it and usually gets another kill too. Depending on how his team looks (if it's really volc weak), I sometimes even opt to let Volc set up more boosts to try and sweep the enemy with Ditto.

Ok, so Ditto > Stat up booster is kind of a no-brainer, but I'm just pointing out that Volc isn't invicible, and because of Ditto, powerful set up mons like Volc (and Garchomp! +2 ATK + Scarf Outrage is incredibly hard to stop) can even be a LIABILITY.