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General Suspect Discussion Thread
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Banning Jirachi (which would be the effect of banning serene grace, along with banning meloetta) would remove a really important balancing pokemon from the metagame. Jirachi, especially the specially defensive variant, really helps to keep a whole host of dragons in check that could otherwise run all over the metagame.
Genesect, on the other hand, is a real menace. It has the ability to hit absurd attacking stats right off the bat (800+ with band/specs), coupled with excellent coverage, good Speed and U-turn. Genesect basically has one counter in Heatran, a Pokemon that is easily trappable (unless it has shed shell, in which case it is easily worn down). If people are having to run shed shell heatran to have a good chance of beating Genesect+Dugtrio, that would merely indicate to me that it was overpowered. Because of U-turn, countering Genesect alone is not enough either; you have to have the entry hazard advantage too, or your "counter" could well fall faster than the beast it's supposed to be countering. Volt-turn always was stupendously powerful, but until now we didn't have any really strong abusers. Genesect is a whole different animal.
I'm also very interested to see how high this thing goes in the usage statistics. If it's not number one by a significant margin I'd be really surprised.
Genesect, on the other hand, is a real menace. It has the ability to hit absurd attacking stats right off the bat (800+ with band/specs), coupled with excellent coverage, good Speed and U-turn. Genesect basically has one counter in Heatran, a Pokemon that is easily trappable (unless it has shed shell, in which case it is easily worn down). If people are having to run shed shell heatran to have a good chance of beating Genesect+Dugtrio, that would merely indicate to me that it was overpowered. Because of U-turn, countering Genesect alone is not enough either; you have to have the entry hazard advantage too, or your "counter" could well fall faster than the beast it's supposed to be countering. Volt-turn always was stupendously powerful, but until now we didn't have any really strong abusers. Genesect is a whole different animal.
I'm also very interested to see how high this thing goes in the usage statistics. If it's not number one by a significant margin I'd be really surprised.
Um, Sand Veil needs Perma Sand to function, Serene Grace Iron Head (stab) Jirachi doesn't need anything. The fact that you can abuse such a move and allow the opponent a 40% chance JUST to hit you is unacceptable, and we are talking about 100% accurate moves here. The lucky part is me hitting him.
And to those saying the trainer should have had a Jirachi counter, how many are we supposed to pack per team? I have a Volcarona, and I can assure you I have better uses for it than to absorb a random flinch/para, not to mention the very possibility of it dying mid match while taking care of something else.
The case of Jirachi shouldn't be extended to other Serene Grace pokemon as none of them have the perfect distribution, typing, movepool, BST or moves to abuse SG as Jirachi does. And if you are gonna say that you can't ban a pokemon due to one set, I'll say we banned Garchomp primarily for its SubSD set.
What can you do about HaxRachi you say? Maybe add a Hippowdon, Gliscor, Jellicent, Slowbro, Sableye, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, CM Jirachi, Heatran, Tentacruel in your team? And i am only talking about hard counters, don't even get me started about checks, there are like 20 of them in OU. So no Jirachi is nowhere near broken.
EDIT: Add defensive Politoed as a counter to haxRachi that i forgot to mention.
I'm sorry you called him HaxRachi but want him to stay?
I'm not gonna play stall for one pokemon. I'm pretty others would agree that having more than one Jirachi counter on a team just for this sake is not acceptable. I play HO, what use do I have for most of these mons?
And this is me talking about it's HaxRachi set, I didn't even mention the subCalm set under the rain with 60% Para Thunder and single weakness under rain.
Edit: HaxRachi/ParaFlincher, tomato/tomoto.
SubDisable Gengar can check Specially defensive Rachi without a filler mover nicely, it's also HO most accepted spin-blocker. There's an array of checks for Jirachi.
The fact that Jirachi can hax you to death if you are not prepared for him doesn't mean it's broken.
Stall? What the hell? I think Ferrothorn, CM Jirachi, Skarmory, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Hippowdon and Jellicent can be easily used in balanced teams. And out of them Gliscor, CM Jirachi, and Heatran definitely can fit into offensive teams, so you already have 3 counters at your disposal. And aside from that, as i said before, do you really want me to say what can a HO team do to get past Jirachi? Maybe stack on physical sweepers, as Jirachi can wall none of them, except from taking Outrages. Or use a strong Ground mon, such as Landorus, Landorus-T, Garchomp and Mamoswinbe. Or run a Lum Berry to one of your set-up sweepers. Are those enough?
I'm gonna just quote because it hasn't bee replied to and is a nice rebuttal as well:
android:
"When it comes to the 'use something faster' argument, Body Slam, Thunder, and Thunder Wave nullify; you can never switch something faster into Jirachi safely. But the main issue is not the lack of safe switch ins. The issue is the very nature of paraflinch Jirachi. You are left to praying to the RNG gods that your 'counter' gets a chance to actually counter Jirachi. Even if you are (were) faster, if you aren't resistant to Steel, and sometimes even if you are, Jirachi can tank any move you've got that isn't named Earthquake and proceed to paralyze you and flinch you to death.
Paraflinching is uncompetitive. It doesn't always work, but that is precisely the reason why it is so uncompetitive. I don't understand how paraflinch can be seen as a desirable aspect of a balanced, enjoyable metagame, especially on a Pokemon like Jirachi that can abuse it so effortlessly."
Also: see ScarfRachi.
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I already have a Volcarona on my HO Team. That still doesn't protect it from the paralysis or make it a safe switch in even if I burn it. How many Jirachi counters must I have in order to qualify as "being prepared to", because I am sure no HO team will fit under your criteria.
I mentioned stall because you just named out most members of the commonly used Sand Stall teams out there.
3 counters for a Paraflincher, don't you think that's centralizing the metagame?
Most neutral to Ironhead and Body Slam, Mamo is hit super effectively.
Doesn't protect from 60% flinch.
The case with Jirachi is that usually takes two Pokemon, being so bulky it can tank even Earhquakes. There's no solid check, since it's sets are so diverse, yet it still manageable to play around, although this does push the need to revenge killing it half the time. Serene Grace does put luck to hair pulling ends, but not to the extreme of banning.
As i mentioned again, you will handle it by applying offensive pressure. Last time i used a HO phyically offensive team, Jirachi was no problem, because SubDD Gyarados, Focus Sash SD Terrakion, SD Landorus and DD Lum Berry Haxorus don't give a fucking shit about haxRachi. I won't give you any other examples about how to handle him with a HO team, as if you can't then you don't know how to build a proper HO team, and here is not the place to learn.
Ok.
I didn't say to use all 3 counters together. Why can't you just run 1 of those 3 in your team and be done with it?
You don't get the point. When you play with a HO team, against a balanced/stall team (haxRachi is found on such teams), then you should have the momentum, which means being ahead of your opponent by one step. So by the moment that Jirachi comes in, your Ground types should already be in. And guess what, they can't get flinched to death, because they all outspeed and OHKO.
Yeah it does if you are faster. And guess what, any offensive set-up sweeper is faster than SpD Jirachi.
just to clear up i do not want it banned but the descusion is quite facinating.I love rachi and can always deal with it with a ground fire or fighting which all teams have several of
Matthew - firstly, we could ban sand at a later stage, and that would work fine.
However, it is clearly a less potent weather type than rain and sun - its only real power lies in weather based abilities. Rain and Sun are innately powerful because of their effect on fire and water-type moves. Therefore, it is possible that sand could be manageble merely by banning certain sand related abilities or pokemon, while this is not really possible with sun and especially rain.
Speaking of which, how do people feel about possibly banning sand rush and freeing mold breaker/sand force excadrill?
However, it is clearly a less potent weather type than rain and sun - its only real power lies in weather based abilities. Rain and Sun are innately powerful because of their effect on fire and water-type moves. Therefore, it is possible that sand could be manageble merely by banning certain sand related abilities or pokemon, while this is not really possible with sun and especially rain.
Speaking of which, how do people feel about possibly banning sand rush and freeing mold breaker/sand force excadrill?
yeh maybee this could be a test.Exadrill doesnt have the best speed outside sand
Why ban Sand Rush, when it isn't a broken ability? The only argument that would make sense would be to combo ban Sand Rush + Sand Stream, but with only Exadrill being broken (unlike SS + Drizzle which was broken on at least 3 mons) it is obvious that Excadrill is the broken factor.
Nah, imo, those 2 wouldn't be broken even with Sand as the only weather. Sandslash is countered by Skarmory, Slowbro, Gliscor, Bronzong, Hippowdon and even BU Breloom, and is not hard at all to outspeed with a Scarfer (Scarf Keldeo outspeeds for example, under Sand). Stoutland again can be countered by Hippowdon, Slowbro, Gliscor, and some other mons depending on the coverage move (Fire Fang or Wild Charge). It is also weak to Mach Punch, and takes quite a lot from Scizor's BP too. He can also be Pursuited after he kills something with Pursuit / Return and can be outsped by many common scarfers such as Keldeo and Terreakion when running Adamant (and he needs all the power he can get). Finally it has no resistances to come into, which means that he won't be able to come in and out freely, so you can play around him.
But IF any of those 2 mons was broken, i could see some logic between a combo ban of Sand Rush + Sand Stream.
But IF any of those 2 mons was broken, i could see some logic between a combo ban of Sand Rush + Sand Stream.
I personally think Excadrill should get retested sometime in the near future, as Sand is quite hard to keep up. Sun is rising, Rain is dominant, and Hail is...well, Hail. Not to mention Drill isn't that good without sand, and loses to any HP Fires/Grounds/Fightings flying around.
However, what IS broken?
Tornadus-T can easily spam Hurricane with no drawbacks thanks to Rain's dominance. Also, if it sets up a Sub, it can't be easily revenged. On top of this, it has Regenerator, which negates Stealth Rock damage. It also has 121 base speed, so it can use Specs or LO for more power withot losing speed. Even the blobs can't counter it, hanks to Superpower. It's coverage, stats, and the dominance of Rain make Torn-T broken.
However, what IS broken?
Tornadus-T can easily spam Hurricane with no drawbacks thanks to Rain's dominance. Also, if it sets up a Sub, it can't be easily revenged. On top of this, it has Regenerator, which negates Stealth Rock damage. It also has 121 base speed, so it can use Specs or LO for more power withot losing speed. Even the blobs can't counter it, hanks to Superpower. It's coverage, stats, and the dominance of Rain make Torn-T broken.
I don't think we're meant to be discussing retesting, so apologies for mentioning excadrill. If we do retest anything I sure as hell don't want it to be sand rush excadrill.
You can't really switch ninetales, politoed or abomasnow into it so all you need is a brief moment of sand to cause some serious havoc.
You can't really switch ninetales, politoed or abomasnow into it so all you need is a brief moment of sand to cause some serious havoc.
I'm gonna run calcs for Choice Scarf Abomasnow against Excadrill right now. I don't think EQ KO's. Also, Techniloom has been released, so Mach Punch is a great check to Exca. Skarmory walls it, if I'm not mistaken.
It's not a big deal for me whether or not it gets retested, just a thought.
Abomasnow is really the only weather inducer capabe of switching in to any mve other than Rock Slide, and outspeeding it and OHKOing Drill thanks to its Scarf. I suppose you can't really change the weather then.
It's not a big deal for me whether or not it gets retested, just a thought.
Abomasnow is really the only weather inducer capabe of switching in to any mve other than Rock Slide, and outspeeding it and OHKOing Drill thanks to its Scarf. I suppose you can't really change the weather then.
I honestly have never had a problem facing Tornadus-T. In fact, I find Tornadus incarnate more of a threat. Tornadus-T loses to quite a few steel types. Jirachi, Bronzong, and specially defensive Skarmory are all great checks to Tornadus, who can all switch in with ease and set up hazards or go for an attack. It's especially easy to deal with if you have Ninatales/Tyranitar/Hippowdown, as you can just switch in on any predicted Hurricane and switch right back out on the predicted Superpower or whatever. Without 100% accurate Hurricane, it pretty much ceases to become a threat at all. What's more is that, while its slight reduction in base special attack may seem negligible, it actually isn't, which becomes obvious when you're facing, say, full health Reuniclus, Latios, Dragonite, Thundrus, Scizor, Genesect, Meloetta, etc., as Tornadus fails to OHKO any of them, while they can all OHKO back. So as long as you're not running a super unbalanced team/you're running some kind of steel type, Tornadus shouldn't be a problem. In any case, it's not ban-worthy.
I only questioned it because I saw some inconsistency with the claim. Sand has broken some pokemon, as has rain and sun is just really good. Regardless of that fact people forget that while sand does not boost ground or rock based moves it does deal passive damage, making it somewhat unique (fuck off hail). Passive damage is a huge boon to a weather, or are we forgetting every calc in DPP that always factored in SR AND sand damage.
The problem I have with Jirach is that it functions the same way as double team spam. It takes absolutely no skill (body slam then spam iron head) and prevents the opponent from hitting you through no fault of their own. Think of why Shaymin-S was banned: no matter what, you had an 80% chance to have your special defense drop by 2 stages from seed flare, and there's nothing you can do about it. Jirach is more of the same. Unless you're a ghost, you're probably getting paralyzed, unless rachi is carrying thunder wave, in which case you're still getting paralyzed, so that leaves all of Golurk who doesn't have to worry about paralysis.
With stuff like Spore, you have sleep clause so that a Breloom can't screw over your whole team, but Jirachi can paraflinch his way through your whole team if you're unlucky. And if you're unlucky, and you're not carrying a dedicated Jirachi counter, there isn't anything you can do about it.
I'm not even necessarily saying I think Jirachi is ban worthy, but I think it's seriously broken. It's like sand veil, but kind of the reverse: instead of the enemy passively dodging attacks, the enemy is preventing you from attacking.
I think Jirach deserves a serious look.
With stuff like Spore, you have sleep clause so that a Breloom can't screw over your whole team, but Jirachi can paraflinch his way through your whole team if you're unlucky. And if you're unlucky, and you're not carrying a dedicated Jirachi counter, there isn't anything you can do about it.
I'm not even necessarily saying I think Jirachi is ban worthy, but I think it's seriously broken. It's like sand veil, but kind of the reverse: instead of the enemy passively dodging attacks, the enemy is preventing you from attacking.
I think Jirach deserves a serious look.
Blissey can Thunder wave all your special attackers, physical ones on the switch, being able status an entire is not ban worthy. Now, you'll say para flinching comes to play, a team will more than likely carry a Pokemon that resists Iron head and break through to punish the little metal-head.
Toxic stall Gliscor can stall teams to death, Toxic is your status move and protect is our Iron head.
You won't land a hit on your opponent as it will Protect and Sub away, yet there is no word of it being banned.
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