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Genesect (QC 3/3) (GP 2/2)

[Choice Scarf]

Yea, Genesect needs Thunderbolt on its Scarf set. Useful for revenging +1 Gyarados, which is still a dangerous threat in rain; without TB it's also getting walled by Tentacruel and Jellicent, which isn't exactly a good thing for a Volt-Turn core. Not being able to hurt defensive Politoed also sucks. Not to mention that without TB, Genesect wont have the ability to wear down even offensive Heatran variants (granted you can simply U-turn).

Thus, remove the Bug Buzz slash on Thunderbolt. It's indispensable for its revenge-killing / volt-turning roles, imo.

AC mention that Thunder can be used instead of Tbolt on Rain teams. Of course Genesect would also drop Flamethrower for Bug Buzz / Iron Head / etc

Remove the Giga Drain AC mention - weak power with shit coverage is not worth a moveslot. Hell, Psychic or Flash Cannon is more useful.

I would actually AC mention Iron Head / Zen Headbutt for a better way to check Terrakion / Virizion / Keldeo. Terrakion with sand's SpD boost results in a +1 Atk Download boost, just enough for Iron Head to OHKO; Iron Head does a solid 60%+ to Virizion as well. Zen Headbutt is nice for inflicting 80+% to Virizion and 60+% to Keldeo after CM.

[Rock Polish]

Modest > Timid. It's sufficiently fast with max Spe, and it would really want as much special power it can get after it sets up Rock Polish.

Since you mentioned Rain, mine as well mention Thunder for another powerful coverage move.

as Omicron has suggested, AC mention Focus Sash

[Choice Band]

Scarf Landorus / Scarf Mienshao is a nice Volt-Turn partner alongside Rotom-W, since it can take over Genesect's usual revenge-killing role.

[Other Options]

Techno Blast @ Dousing Drive & Thunder provides some powerful coverage moves to go along with Bug Buzz in Rain. Techno Blast is probably better than HP Water when Genesect does not want LO recoils / want to bluff choiced against the REALLY inattentive opponents.

[Checks and Counters]

Kind of wimpy, needs more muscle.

Provide good U-turn absorbers - Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Landorus have relatively good bulk and can switch in on mostly anything not named a +1 Flamethrower outside of Rain or Ice Beam.

Jellicent & Tentacruel can switch into any move not named Thunder(bolt).

Anti- Volt-Turn mons in general are good to mention here. Unfortunately, Genesect just made countering Volt-Turns even more of a nuisance x_x;; As previously stated, Jellicent fits this role imo. Also physically-defensive CM + Reflect Latias can soak up most hits from Volt-Turners, imo.

Not only Magnezone, but now Gothitelle (and by extension Wobbuffet) can trap and kill Genesect with shadow tag.

Also list some specially defensive mons to deal with Rock Polish Genesect (primarily Chansey / Blissey, Gastrodon, Jirachi in Rain).
 
I've noticed you made a couple of changes to the CB set since I approved. Iron Head needs to go into AC for sure.

The biggest change, though, was changing the natures to +Speed. Throughout my testing I've generally not found myself missing the additional Speed much, if at all. Deoxys-D was probably the only relevant Pokemon I might have outran. I would prefer for the +attack natures to be the main option, but the alternative option absolutely must go in AC whatever you choose to do. And you definitely need to justify your choice in AC too.

Also, the ever so slightly weaker mystic water HP water (84bp compared to 85) is far superior to techno blast because it gives nothing away. The fact that this is clearly ridiculous indicates how ridiculous Techno Blast is. Techno blast should never ever be used. Ever.
 
Genesect's speed

Yeah I wasn't sure if should give the non-scarfed Genesects max speed or not. On one hand, the only threats your outspeeding are Rotom-W and opposing Genesect (which I guess could become super relevant when Genesect is super popular) but I think I'll stick with the more offensive natures for now and see how things go down the line.

My take on Pocket's changes:

I agree with most of them except:

  • Gothitelle & Wobbuffet aren't worth mentioning as a checks. Yes Wobbuffet can easily trap and kill it if its locked into a non STABed coverage move, but it can do that to pretty much every choice scarfer in OU. I can't even switch in reliably because of U-turn. Assuming Genesect is running scarf anyway, it gets bodied by expert belt, Wobbuffet is at worst locking Rock Polish Genesect into a Rock Polish, and its not going to touch the CB set thats just mindlessly spamming U-turn like its 1992.
  • Gothitelle is even worse than Wobbuffet at checking, and its only a check if its using HP fire and you're locked into a weak coverage move. And by that logic we should mention Gothitelle as a counter to every Pokemon in OU >_>
  • Mentioning CM + Reflect Latias seems like an oddly specific and unnecessary thing to do...
  • What jc104 said on Techno Blast. Pity that the move is garbage, its so cool.

Everything else was much appreciated.
 
I don't know much about OU, but there is one thing missing from this analysis that I did use in Ubers... Hidden Power Ground. Yeah I see that its mentioned in AC... but I assume that Heatran is more common in OU than Ubers, so wouldn't HP Ground make sense as a slash in at least? Also, how good is Hidden Power Fighting in OU? I assume Jirachi being more common means that it isn't as good in OU as it is in Ubers, but just a thought!
 
Hidden Power Ground is literally only for Heatran. It has little use otherwise, as Flamethrower hits Jirachi and pretty much every other Steel-type harder. Heatran is a hard counter to Genesect, but it can easily be taken care of with other Pokemon. That's what teammates are for anyway. Dugtrio is an awesome teammate for Genesect for that reason. Besides, most Genesect will be spamming U-turn, so Heatran looking to switch in for free must watch out for a U-turn pivot to Dugtrio.
 
Theorymon said:
I don't know much about OU, but there is one thing missing from this analysis that I did use in Ubers... Hidden Power Ground. Yeah I see that its mentioned in AC... but I assume that Heatran is more common in OU than Ubers, so wouldn't HP Ground make sense as a slash in at least? Also, how good is Hidden Power Fighting in OU? I assume Jirachi being more common means that it isn't as good in OU as it is in Ubers, but just a thought!
Click to expand...

Thing is you could just U-Turn out of Heatran to an appropriate counter, instead of ruining your otherwise almost perfect coverage and locking you into a move that some of the most dangerous mons can easily use to set-up for free.
HP Ground could maybe be used on an Expert Belt set if you really hate Heatran, but i don't think that it deserves a slash an AC comment is imo totally fine.

Edit: Ninja'd
 
Thanks for making the changes (within reason xd), PK Gaming.

You missed mentioning Iron Head / Zen Headbutt to check Terrakion and Virizion (Scarf Set)

For the same reason as the Scarf set, I'd slash Bug Buzz > Flamethrower rather than Thunderbolt on the Rock Polish set.

EDIT: Katakiri, Genesect would most likely not be receiving a +1 Atk Download boost from Salamence, since its usually Jolly or Naive, meaning that you will be getting +1 SpA boost.
 
Since it hasn't been brought up yet, maybe mention Quick Attack on the CB set as an option over Zen Headbutt. Like you said in the analysis, I've found myself using U-Turn 90% of the time at least and because it's always U-Turning, those Pokemon that Zen Headbutt hits can always be dealt with by teammates. While Genesect's not quite doing Scizor damage when it comes to priority, it's not too bad either. Removing about 40-50% from most sweepers after Download. If Genesect's partners can score a solid hit on something trying to set up a sweep, Genesect can easily finish the job.

252 +1 Atk Choice Band Genesect Quick Attack vs 4 HP/0 Def Thundurus: 45.33% - 53.67%
252 +1 Atk Choice Band Genesect Quick Attack vs 0 HP/0 Def Salamence: 37.16% - 43.81%
252 +1 Atk Choice Band Genesect Quick Attack vs 0 HP/0 Def Volcarona: 46.62% - 54.98%
 
Volcarona is a pretty solid offensive check too, since it discourages U-turn spamming (and can even get a burn with Flame Body) and provided Genesect hasn't gotten a Special Attack boost, isn't 2HKOed by any of its moves. Genesect can't catch it at +1 if it runs Timid, and even if it uses Modest it still can't be touched.
 
Pocket and co pretty much covered it all, but please please please include Focus Sash with U-turn in the Other Options (requires spin support to be effective for the whole game) for the ability to either gain momentum on turn one, or fry opposing Genesect leads with Flamethrower and then maintain the momentum on the second turn. It's really effective even with all of the faster threats. Otherwise:

QC Approved (3/3)

EDIT: it's already in all-out attacker so that's ok, no need. Thanks for the outstanding input though, Ojama.
 
As embarrassed as I am to say I used smashpass, download, great movepool, and sweet resistances makes it probably the best recipient allowed in OU. Needs a mention somewhere, if not here than in team options in the smashpassers analysis .
 
Genesect

I'm not sure if this is exactly where I'm supposed to post this, but I think this set deserves a look, as it's brought me much success.

Technosect (Rain)
@ Douse Drive / Life Orb
Modest

~Rock Polish
~Bug Buzz
~Thunder
~TechnoBlast / Hidden Power (Water)

The aim of this set is quite simple; Rock Polish and demolish. There are many targets Genesect can seek to set up on. Some examples include: Ferrothorn, Jellicent, Scizor, and Politoed. Just to gauge the devastation of this set, after one Rock Polish, Modest Genesect-D is capable of outspeeding Venusaur in the sun and shares this ability only with the likes of Choice Scarfed Jolteon. Genesect-D not only covers up it's disappointing 99 Base Speed stat with Rock Polish, but can also greatly increase it's already impressive 120 Base Special Attack stat with Download, obtaining him many impressive KO's.

While many people are tempted to give Genesect-D the famous (and extremely effective) BoltBeam coverage, his signature move TechnoBlast is overlooked. In the rain, after a download boost, Techno Blast OHKO's 252/252 Specially Defensive Heatran, of whom would effectively wall it without the attack. Stealth Rock damage on Heatran greatly increases the possibility of this OHKO to 81.25%. Another situation where this attack complements the great coverage of Bug Buzz and Thunder is when Volcarona makes an appearance. With Volcarona's higher Base Speed stat and amazing Special Defense bulk, Genesect would normally be easy setup fodder, or Volcarona could decide to OHKO it with it's wide array of fire type attacks. However, even without a Special Attack boost in the rain, Genesect has the ability to OHKO with Techno Blast. Without Techno Blast, Terrakion has the ability to give Genesect some trouble, but Techno Blast OHKO's in the rain with or without a Download boost. Magnezone is also less of a problem as Techno Blast in the rain is a clean 2HKO while Magnezone fails to KO with Hidden Power Fire.

Losing Ice Beam in this set does bring it's consequences. Genesect is no longer able to OHKO the likes of Salamence and Dragonite. However, after Stealth Rocks and a Download boost, Thunder is an OHKO to Naive Salamence, and is only four percent damage away from grabbing an OHKO on Offensive Dragon Dance Dragonite. Despite these unfortunate calculations, the coverage of the moveset provided makes up for the loss of Ice Beam.

252 +1 SpAtk Genesect (+SpAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252 HP/192 SpDef Tyranitar (+SpDef) : 86.14% - 101.73% (12.5% chance to OHKO)
252 +1 SpAtk Genesect (+SpAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Gastrodon (+SpDef) : 43.66% - 51.64% (3 hits to KO)
252 +1 SpAtk Genesect (+SpAtk) Bug Buzz vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Haxorus: 104.08% - 122.79% (Guaranteed OHKO)

252 SpAtk Genesect (+SpAtk) Thunder vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Tornadus-T: 99% - 117.06% (93.75% chance to OHKO)
252 SpAtk Genesect (+SpAtk) Bug Buzz vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Landorus (-SpDef) : 80.88% - 95.3% (50% chance to OHKO)
252 SpAtk Genesect (+SpAtk) Techno Blast vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Landorus (-SpDef) : 80.88% - 95.3% (50% chance to OHKO)

Something that can go overlooked is the fact that Genesect cannot hide the type of Drive that it is using. For this set, it would be "Genesect-D", so there is no ability to bluff any sort of item or set. With Life Orb and Hidden Power Water, the user is able to hide Genesect's water capabilities and actually wield a much higher damage-producing moveset. Genesect is able to 2HKO Ferrothorn with a Download boost, and can guarantee an OHKO the likes of Haxorus with Bug Buzz. The only downside of this change would be Genesect losing it's survivability, which can in turn effect the number of opportunities that it has to set up.

An optional EV spread, inspired by EonFriend in a much earlier post, is 194 Speed EV's. This gives Genesect the ability to outspeed Choice Scarfed base 120 Speed users. However, Genesect loses it's ability to outspeed Pokemon such as Modest/Timid Hydreigon, Jolly Dragonite, and Jolly/Adamant Haxorus by several points without a Rock Polish boost. A max Speed Timid natured Genesect can be chosen, but at the loss of many KO's.
 
PK Gaming already has a Rock Polish set with an AC mention of Thunder and HP Water.

However, this reminds me that Bug Buzz should be slashed before Flamethrower. If Volcarona has taught us anything, it's that a special Bug move is powerful, getting past mons like TTar, Latias, Rotom-W, etc with ease.
 
I know i am late but i have a few suggestions about the CB set, after some testing...

First of all Iron Head > Zen Headbutt any day, and i would go as far as to tell that Iron Head should be slashed alone and that Zen Headbutt should go in the last slot or in AC. Yeah Steel is a bad offensive type, but guess what, Psychic is too, and the fact that it doesn't even has STAB, makes it even worse. Even more thinks can set-up on a choice locked Zen Headbutt than on Iron Head. For example Zen Headbutt is set-up on by Sub Hydreigon, CM Lati@s, SD Scizor, CM Jirachi, NP Celebi, Rock Polish Genesect, SD + BP Gliscor, 252 HP DDnite, Deoxys-D, DS or CM Espeon, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Skarmory, Shell Smash Cloyster (not comfortably as he takes ~55%), NP Mew and CM / TR Reuniclus. In the other hand Iron Head is walled by much less poke due to STAB and different resistances... Here are the pokes that can set-up on Iron Head: Gyarados, Ferrothorn, Forretress, RP Genesect, CM Jirachi (not so comfortably though, as he takes ~40% from a CB +1 Iron Head so he gets 3hkoed, while also he won't be able to set-up as Sub, which is not the case with Zen Headbutt), CM Keldeo (again not comfortably as Iron Head does ~55%), Skarmory, and Volcarona. (in all those calcs an Atk boost from Donwload is assumed)

So Zen Headbutt gets set-up on by 16 pokes, while Iron Head by only 8 pokes (not sets). This is a huge difference!!!

Also the main targets for Zen Headbutt are Conk, Volcarona, Keldeo, Tentacruel and Terrakion. Out of those Conkeldurr, Terrakion and every Volcarona except from physically bulky are ohkoed after SR. And the remains, Tentacruel, Keldeo and physically defensive Volcarona are dealt by a good partner such as Jolteon or Rotom-W. So there is no need to run an unstabbed move with sucky typing, just to deal with a few threats, when you can simply get by those threats with Iron Head or with a few good teammates (it's not like prediction is needed to bring the teammates in, you have U-turn lol). Oh and something else that needs to be mentioned, standard Gliscor takes 55.93 - 66.1% from +1 Iron Head, which is a 2hko after SR, so no need for Ice Beam. Also every dragon in OU is ohkoed by +1 Iron Head after SR, so again no need for SR.

So based on those facts, here is what i think that the set should look like:

- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Flamethrower
- Explosion / Ice Beam / Quick Attack
 
Yes, we know that Zen Headbutt can be setup bait, but it has a use. Iron Head has no use except for taking out Terrakion. Iron Head does not OHKO Conkeldurr, and besides Conkeldurr can boost its defense so you might need all the power you can get.

Having used CB Genesect for some time, and for most of it packing Iron Head, I literally did not use the move once. That is how useless it is.

I don't see how the moves are comparable; Zen Headbutt kills 6 or so pokemon that Iron Head cannot. Iron Head kills one Pokemon of note that ZHB also kills. As for the OU Dragons thing - Dragonite might be OHKOed after SR, but Salamence might intimidate you and will give you a SpA boost, and the rest are maimed by U-turn. Gliscor recovers HP so fast that I'm not remotely satisfied with a 2HKO (if it does 2HKO after Gliscor uses protect); Ice Beam is a clean OHKO and that's much more useful.

tl;dr: I don't care if it's not setup bait, because i'll never use it.
 
jc many of your claims are false, as i will prove now. You say that Iron Head has no purpose except from ohkoing Terrakion. Let's see some calcs:

+1 Iron Head vs 160 HP Volcarona (Chesto Rest): 61.53 - 72.64%, ohko after SR
+1 Iron Head vs 240 HP / 216 Def Bold Volcarona (Bulky QD): 2hko after SR, while you outspeed
+1 Iron Head vs 120 HP Conkeldurr (Bulk Up): 83.46 - 98.42%, 2hko and 31.25% chance to ohko after SR

So this means that only Tentacruel and Keldeo cannot be dealt by Iron Head, which is a little price to pay, in order to have a stronger STAB move that is much more difficult to set-up on than Zen Headbutt (not even counting Zen Headbutt's accuracy and Iron Head's flinch chance, which both matter).

I have also used CB Genesect, and i have used Iron Head quite a few times, and it always did its job. Iron Head WILL 2hko most Gliscors, and if they have Protect and survive the second hit, then fine, just tank an EQ and 3hko him, what's the big deal? And if your Genesect doesn't have an Atk boost from Download, then simply switch out with U-turn instead of going for the Iron Head.

Finally Dragonite is ALWAYS OHKOed by Iron Head after SR (82.38 - 97.15%) at +1, as is Salamence, after Intimidate (74.32 - 87.31%) and SR. And you should never switch into Mence with CBSect anyway, except when you want to bluff a Scarf set, where it doesn't matter if you get the Atk boost or not, as Mence is going to switch out anyway, and if he stays in, he will ohko regardless with Fire Blast as he outspeeds.

tl;dr Iron Head is superior to Zen Headbutt in almost every way imagineable. As for Ice Beam i don't really care if it stays on the 4th slot or not (i don't believe it should), but Explosion should definitely be the first option! Let's see some examples that may convince you why (all calcs assume a +1 Atk boost):

Explosion vs:

- 252 HP Heatran: 78.18 - 92.2%, which is a 37.5% chance of OHKO after SR, and even if it doesn't ohko, it will leave Heatran unable to wall anything anymore.

- 252 HP /252 Def Bold Blissey: 161.06 - 189.63%, in case you want a good Blissey lure

- 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Chansey: 119.31 - 140.48%, same as above

- 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Tentacruel: obviously ohko

- 4 HP Keldeo: obviously ohko

- 252 HP Jirachi: 78.46 - 92.32%

- 252 HP / 176 Impish Gliscor: 115.81 - 136.44% (and doesn't lock you into an Ice Beam that many mons can set-up on)

- 200 HP / 244 Def Landorus-T after Intimidate: 97.83 - 115.17%

- 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Gyarados after Intimidate: 89.84 - 105.83%

- 252 HP / 88 Def Relaxed Ferrothorn: 60.22 - 71.02%

- 252 HP / 252 Def Impish Hippo: 96.9 - 114.04%

And finally

252 HP / 232 Def Impish Skarmory: 54.49 - 64.07%


So as you can see Ice Beam is not really needed when you can ohko every Hippowdon and Gliscor without locking yourself into a move that can be set-up on by many mons and allow Magnezone to get to +6.
 
I did not say anything about Dragonite not being KOed after SR. I used a construction in english that might be slightly confusing to a non-native speaker - I was conceding that dragonite was indeed OHKOed after SR.

The key here is that Zen Headbutt kills a number of notable U-turn resists that you otherwise could not KO without resorting to Explosion (I hope you can see the negative effect of that). The few U-turn resists that Iron Head does take out are dealt with by Stealth Rock and Ice Beam. It is also quite clear that Ice Beam and Iron Head are the moves playing the same role here. As I said, Zen Headbutt and Iron Head are not comparable because, apart from Terrakion, they generally hit different targets. If you run Iron Head, that should have absolutely no bearing on whether you run Zen Headbutt or not. Iron Head should be used over Ice Beam because it hits the same pokemon, namely Gliscor, Dragonite, Landorus and Salamence. I'd prefer Ice Beam because it does more damage to said targets - apart from dragonite's multiscale being broken, it's an unconditional OHKO on all of them.

Also, I was encouraging PKGaming to add all of the targets of Zen Headbutt before; there are a fair number of them, and none can be OHKOed through any other move:

Volcarona (assuming you don't have SR up; it's clearly a terrible switchin otherwise), Keldeo, Conkeldurr (unlikely OHKO with Iron Heda at +1 after SR and impossible after lefties), Tentacruel, offensive Ninetales, and Infernape. It also OHKOs Terrakion and Lucario, though those may be dealt with by Iron Head and Flamethrower respectively. Lastly it gives a chance to 2HKO Jellicent if you get the attack boost.

I hope it's clear that with the set in the OP, Genesect has no safe switchins except for heatran. Given that you're running U-turn and will use it 95% of the time, all you are really looking for in that last move is to deal with the especially troublesome Pokemon that resist the move. Your set fails to deal with all of those, instead opting to hit stuff you could happily just U-turn against instead.

edit: OK Iron Head is actually somewhat helpful in taking out Kyurem and Mamoswine, neither of which is actually going to switch in, but still, that should be mentioned.
 
Yeah you have a point with Zen Headbutt hitting most targets that resist or don't care about U-turn. But Still Iron Head is a very good option that can ohko many pokes such as Mamoswine, Kyurem and any dragon (without resorting to non stab moves of your low attacking stat), Virizion, and 2hko Specially Defensive Hippowdon (Ice Beam doesn't ohko as you don't have the SpA boost).

Finally even though it is not so important, i will mention again that locking yourself into Ice Beam or Zen Headbutt IS not a good idea, as many pokes can set-up on them, which is not the case with Iron Head. And as mentioned again Iron Head is something like a mix of Ice Beam and Zen Headbutt (deals with Gliscor, Terrakion, dragons and Conkedlurr (yeah a Conk at 5% health is effectively dead)) so i think that it should be used without any of those 2. So maybe make the set like this:

- U-turn
- Zen Headbutt / Iron Head
- Flamethrower
- Ice Beam / Explosion

And mention that Ice Beam and Zen Headbutt work well together, while you can more easily run Explosion with Iron Head, because Iron Head does good damage to most targets of Ice Beam and Zen Headbutt.

EDIT: Yeah i just realized this SDS, lol! Just ignore me...
 
In other options, I think Flash Cannon should get a mention. It's the only special move it has to really touch Terrakion. With a Download boost and rocks up it has a 31% to OHKO Terrakion in the sand.
 
I don't understand what is going on with the specs set. Why is bug buzz, your MAIN specs-boosted stab attack, slashed with uturn and flamethrower? What is the point of a specs set without a strong +2 stab attack to rely on. The set should look like this:
Genesect @ specs
Whatever Evs naive

Bugbuzz
U turn
Ice beam
T-bolt

What else do you need? Ferrothorn, opposing genesect, scizor, and forre, the 4x weak reasons to use a fire move, are all at least 2hkod by +2 bug buzz or t bolt, anyway. Now you always have a boosted stab move to spam, and the only three pokes that can switch in to take bug buzz the blobs and heatran, are all susceptible to u turn trapping. The old specs set was a carbon copy of the scarf set, and didn't take advantage of the power specs can bring to the table in tandem with download.
 
Good point, i'll make the changes immediately.

I wrote it at the time where I underestimated Bug Buzz and overestimated U-turn, sorry.
 
I have to say, quick attack actually is useful on CB Gene. It does a nice chunk of damage against frail and weakened opponents, so it can be a good way to pick off something like latios or starmie at low hp when they'd normally outspeed and KO.
Just something to consider.
 
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