Gengar (3 Attacks) [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Katakiri

Katakiri

Listen, Brendan...
is a Researcher Alumnus
Revamping and merging the Sub+3 Attacks set with the Protect analysis.

QC: 3/3 (ginganinja, PK Gaming, Pocket)
GP: 2/2 (Melvni, Redew)
Done and ready to go!
FrenzyMYSTICgarSmall.png

Gengar

[SET]
name: Offensive 3 Attacks
move 1: Substitute / Protect
move 2: Shadow Ball
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Life Orb / Black Sludge
ability: Levitate
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>By giving up a status move, Gengar can obtain better super effective coverage than the tried and true Shadow Ball + Focus Blast. The choice between Substitute and Protect is heavily influenced by the needs of Gengar's team, but each option has its own advantages. The primary difference between Substitute and Protect is that Substitute Gengar is a setup variant that takes advantage of an opponent being forced to switch, while Protect Gengar can scout against Pokemon that are already in front of it. Substitute gives Gengar free turns to attack behind the safety of its Substitute, but leaves it very open to priority and faster Pokemon if the Substitute is not up; additionally, the Substitute can be broken via Volt Switch, which can leave Gengar completely open next turn against trappers and faster Pokemon. Protect gives Gengar immediate safety and lets it safely check the moves of Choice-locked switch-ins, easing prediction, but it will always be a glass cannon. A key factor in choosing between Protect and Substitute is longevity. Substitute Gengar's lifespan can be short with Stealth Rock, passive effects, and the cost of each Substitute eating away at it. Protect Gengar does not need to rip away 25% of its HP just to keep safe, but this is high risk high reward; Protect ensures Gengar sticks around for as long as you need it, as you almost always know what your opposition is planning no matter how fast they are and you can make the correct choice next turn, but due to Gengar's fragile defenses, if you do make a mistake such as leaving it in against a Pokemon that was bluffing a Choice item or scouting a Pokemon's move only to have it set up on the Protect, Gengar will likely pay with its life. As for the attacking options, Shadow Ball and Focus Blast's unrivaled coverage might go without saying, but Hidden Power Fire gives Gengar added super effective coverage, allowing it to OHKO Scizor, Breloom, and Ferrothorn while dealing hefty chunks to Jirachi and Bronzong as well as letting Gengar take on Skarmory without risking a Focus Blast miss. Life Orb is preferred for the power increase that makes Gengar hard to switch in on. Black Sludge trades power for extended longevity, allowing Gengar to survive in Sandstorm and against the constant entry hazard damage it takes from switching, making it nearly ideal for Substitute variants if you can stand the attack power loss.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>3 attacks Gengar is a force to be reckoned with in the metagame. Scizor, Forretress, Blissey, and Chansey are the only common Pokemon in OU that resist Shadow Ball and aren't deathly afraid of Focus Blast; in fact, most OU Pokemon can be OHKOed or 2HKOed by Life Orb Gengar after Stealth Rock. If using Black Sludge, keep in mind that some specially defensive Pokemon like Jirachi will not mind taking a few attacks even at only moderate HP due to the drop in power. If running Substitute, it is best to choose options that set this set apart from SubDisable and SubSplit. Thunderbolt&mdash;or Thunder on rain teams%mdash;can be used for different super effective coverage should Water-types like the ever-troublesome Rain Dish Tentacruel hassle your team, but remember that Gengar cannot OHKO Scizor or Forretress without Hidden Power Fire. If you pair Gengar with Magnezone or you feel like your team has no issue with Steel- or Water-types, you can replace Hidden Power Fire with Destiny Bond to get the last laugh against foes such as Garchomp and Calm Mind Keldeo, Pokemon Gengar cannot beat normally without prior damage. Destiny Bond can even be used as a last resort against a Scizor that got around your Magnezone or whatever you use; take him down with Gengar if he Pursuits on Gengar's Protect. In fact, while not the primary use of the option, Gengar with Destiny Bond can act as a martyr of sorts for weather teams as Politoed, Ninetales, and some variants of Tyranitar aren't too afraid of Gengar and will attempt to KO it, winning the weather war for you.</p>

<p>As for teammates, you really want a Pokemon that can deal significant damage to Steel-types in rain, specifically specially defensive Jirachi and Bronzong. Either of the Landorus formes or Garchomp are excellent choices for taking on Jirachi. Bronzong is a little trickier due to Levitate, but a few good weather independent checks to Bronzong are Keldeo, Swords Dance Scizor, and Rotom-W, which all resist Gyro Ball and Hidden Power Ice while not minding an Earthquake. Ninetales and Sunny Day Heatran can help combat not only Steel-types used in rain, but also give Gengar's Hidden Power Fire a boost. Ferrothorn can turn Jirachi and Bronzong into setup fodder with your choice of Spikes, Thunder Wave, or Leech Seed each turn.</p>
 
I've always been doubtful of the viability of MYSTICgar, even in DPP (where it was arguably at its best). In fact, I don't like Protect sets period. Okay, sure, maybe you scout Choiced Scizor, but Swords Dance Scizor can set up on your Protect. It's a similar story with Rock Polish Genesect. Choice Scarf Tyranitar's Pursuit OHKOes Gengar after Stealth Rock and Sand damage, regardless of switch. Besides, when I'm using Gengar and I'm facing a team with Scizor, I'm going to predict Scizor to come in and set up a Substitute. Then, this happens:

SubDisable:

Disable Bullet Punch. Threat averted.

SubSplit:

Focus Blast does a lot to Scizor.

Sub + 3 attacks:

OHKO with Hidden Power Fire.

Plus, in general, Substitute is much more reliable than Protect since using Protect does not necessarily mean you're safe; The opponent can take advantage of your Protect and set up, so the way I see things, it's essentially digging your own grave. I think the analysis should stress this fact so people understand that using Protect can potentially be a liability. I do understand that it is good for scouting Choiced Pokemon, but it's not doing you any favors against said Pokemon who forgo Choiced sets in favor of set-up sets, which many can do (Scizor, Genesect, Terrakion, etc.)
 
Okay I'm not going to question the viability of this set at all, but there's a few things you should probably do. Mention Ferrothorn specifically for a Stealth Rock setter, as it can take most attacks aimed at Gengar, such as Crunch from Tyranitar and STAB attacks from Dragons. When you're talking about counters, mention that any non-Choice Scizor with Pursuit (such as the Trapper set) will beat it. Don't forget that this Gengar does really well against offense; you discuss that really well, but make sure to mention that it doesn't do quite as well against stall without Substitute + Disable/Taunt.

Hope this helps a bit.
 
This set is fantastic, I've started using it on a HO team I'm playing around with and it completely removes the prediction element from matchups such as Genesect vs. Gengar, Scizor vs. Gengar, pretty much any Scarf, Specs, or Band user in general gets f*cked by this set as it removes all the surprise factor from the opponent, and if they try to overpredict like, say, Scarf Keldeo going for Secret Sword into Gengar, the latter can sniff it out with Protect and wreck something coming in on the obvious forthcoming switch.

In my opinion, move Taunt to AC, Hidden Power Fire is the only way you're going to be able to deal with CB Scizor locked into Pursuit (unless lol Will-O-Wisp), which is one of the main things this set is meant to scout out. Once you do that I think I'll be ready to QC. Thanks for posting this set.
 
Just pointing out, this was rejected by Bloo, Zdrup and Pocket not that long (yes I know its linked in the OP), so you need to point out the differences between the two metagames that make it viable now. Genesect is the big one, but then again, Volt Turn (imo) is not quite as common as it was in BW1 so perhaps its a trade off. You listed Genesect, and Scarf DItto, but is that really it or is there anything else that makes it better than it was now? Note that I don't actually have a problem with the set itself, I have used it myself on occasion and its o.k, but for it to get a place on site, you need to prove how different (and better) it is to Sub + 3 Attacks, which has the exact same moves but with Substitute over Protect. Protect already has a mention in Sub + 3 Attacks, so you need to explain how your set is superior and then QC decides if it deserves its own slash, or if we just slash protect on Sub + 3 attacks and call it a day.

Also seconding Lavos Spawn RE: Taunt being moved to AC. HP Fire should be the only move listed in that slot.
 
I made all the requested changes and moved Expert Belt up since Taunt was the only reason I had Black Sludge there but I'll move EB back if it's an issue.

I split the meat of the overview into two sections; one detailing the differences of Protect and Sub and advantages of Protect; the other explaining why this metagame is so friendly to MYSTICgar or at least to the best of my abilities.
 
I don't see why Black Sludge should be left out of the analysis, it's still a great item for Gengar, and seeing as Sand is still all over the place, plus the fact that this set advocates stalling for a turn with Protect, having that turn-by-turn recovery to offset Sandstorm damage could be critical. Besides, it's helpful to be able to gradually heal off the 30% or so damage that Gengar will be taking from a +1 Genesect's U-Turn. I think Black Sludge is actually the superior item here.

Speaking of items, is Expert Belt really all that beneficial? I don't see any situations where it would matter between a KO and survival...please explain. I generally end up spamming neutral Shadow Ball and Focus Blast when I'm using this set anyways, with HP Fire thrown into the mix on occasion, so I don't see the use of Expert Belt if all I want is more power for my attacks. The only super-effective move you'll likely be using with MYSTICgar is HP Fire, and that'll KO regardless of EBelt or Black Sludge. Maybe Expert Belt is useful for the odd Focus Blast on SDef Leftovers Tyranitar, but I'm not even sure people run SDef Tar without Chople Berry these days...

I'd like to see Expert Belt moved back down, and Black Sludge replaced as the main item for this set. Your analysis looks good, I'm prepared to QC after these small changes.
 
Extremely comprehensive and thorough analysis, couldn't have asked for anything more.

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QC APPROVED 1/3
 
Can we hold off on approving this please, the set itself I guess is "fine" but I discussed with with some other QC members and stuff and some have reservations on the set (including me). Can I ask all QC members to set up a time and discuss this set fully so we can hash out a solution?

To be clear here, the following are the discussion questions brought up on IRC among various QC members

#1. Is MYSTIC Gar actually effective in the metagame and deserving of a set?

#2. If the set is deemed worthy of an analysis, is it better than the Sub + 3 Attacks set already on site. Does the Sub + 3 Attacks need to be deleted and replaced with MYSTIC Gar? Are both sets viable in this metagame and if so can they simply be merged together (Protect is already in the AC of Sub + 3 Attacks)?

These questions need to be answered IMO before we can come to a proper decision.
 
I don't see how this set actually makes Genesect that much more manageable. There's a number of options, none of which Protect really helps you against:

1) Genesect is Scarfed and uses U-turn - Gengar Protects, knows its safe and lets Genesect U-turn on it - Outcome: Genesect U-turns to an HP Fire resist, and Gengar ended up doing nothing to it anyway.

Firstly, Protect does not actually tell you if Genesect is Scarfed or not unless you have prior information. If you think he's Scarfed and you predict a switch-in into something else, you're just employing extra prediction anyway, so what's the point of Protect?

2) Genesect is not Scarfed and uses U-turn - Gengar could have killed the Genesect without needing to use Protect anyway.

If you know the opposing Genesect is not Scarfed, then using Protect is the worst possible move because you're just wasting a turn and potentially letting your opponent go to a counter for free

3) Genesect is Scarfed and uses a coverage attack
Unless the coverage move is called Psychic (I mean why the fuck), Flamethrower in the sun or Scarfed Iron Head, Gengar can comfortably survive pretty much every attack from Genesect when it doesn't get an SpA boost (well it doesn't, because Gengar's SpD is naturally higher than his Def) and Hidden Power Fire for the win anyway.


So yeah, I don't see why this set is so useful. People switch Gengar INTO Genesect, not the other way around. Basically, unless Genesect pulls off something ridiculously random and rare, Gengar is not losing to Genesect. So why are we using it to beat Genesect when it wasn't needed? MYSTICGar's ONLY purpose is to make Scizor more manageable when using Gengar. Full stop, end of story. Yet, Scizor's usage is in decline these days because of Genesect's popularity, and you have to question why this should be approved when this set was rejected when Scizor was at its prime. If I'm seeing Scizor now, I'd be much more wary of Swords Dance variants to try and differentiate itself from Genesect (so yeah, use Protect and give it a free SD, I dare you). If anything, this set has become even less attractive than before as a result.
 
I am agreeing with Shrang on this one. I don't see much merit in Protect on Gengar. For starters, as Shrang said you're switching Gengar into Genesect, not the opposite. In the current metagame, I don't see much you would be Protect'ing that is more beneficial than if you would Sub, bar Scizor. In Scizor's case, it makes me dislike Protect on Gengar even more. If you protect on either Rock Polish Genesect or on Swords Dance Scizor you're just opening your opponent up for a sweep, whereas if you would of Subbed the previous turn you wouldn't have such a problem. One of the major assets Gengar had in its peak in Gen4 with Protect was that it could scout Scarf Tyranitar and see if it was Crunch'ing or Pursuit'ing, while current ScarfTar is obsolete due to Tornadus-T being faster and OHKO'ing. Chople Tyranitar is a set where Gengar loses no matter the occasion, and Band is slower so you can Sub once to scout. Protect lacks much merit in the current Metagame, and I believe it is AC material at best.
 
Also, referring to the point about how it scouts Ditto-- Substitute can protect again Ditto even copying you, and if you Sub as it is sent in, it's dead.

400 posts yay.
 
shrang said:
I don't see how this set actually makes Genesect that much more manageable. There's a number of options, none of which Protect really helps you against:

1) Genesect is Scarfed and uses U-turn - Gengar Protects, knows its safe and lets Genesect U-turn on it - Outcome: Genesect U-turns to an HP Fire resist, and Gengar ended up doing nothing to it anyway.
Click to expand...

Wait, why would you HP Fire seeing U-Turn? Surely you would shadow ball / focus blast to the face whatever you think likely to switch in (if you know it's scarf)?

2) Genesect is not Scarfed and uses U-turn - Gengar could have killed the Genesect without needing to use Protect anyway.
Click to expand...
If you know the opposing Genesect is not Scarfed, then using Protect is the worst possible move because you're just wasting a turn and potentially letting your opponent go to a counter for free
Click to expand...

Well, if you know it's scarfed, U-Turn is useful. If you don't know it's scarfed, it's still useful! Because if it U-Turns vs protect, you stay in and HP Fire. Then you get to find out if is scarf (it outspeeds you and U-Turns out), or it's not scarf (you kill it, or it switches out directly). Then if it happens again (and you now know it's scarfed) you can f-blast / shadow ball the switch in.

3) Genesect is Scarfed and uses a coverage attack
Click to expand...
Unless the coverage move is called Psychic (I mean why the fuck), Flamethrower in the sun or Scarfed Iron Head, Gengar can comfortably survive pretty much every attack from Genesect when it doesn't get an SpA boost (well it doesn't, because Gengar's SpD is naturally higher than his Def) and Hidden Power Fire for the win anyway.


So yeah, I don't see why this set is so useful. People switch Gengar INTO Genesect, not the other way around. Basically, unless Genesect pulls off something ridiculously random and rare, Gengar is not losing to Genesect. So why are we using it to beat Genesect when it wasn't needed? MYSTICGar's ONLY purpose is to make Scizor more manageable when using Gengar. Full stop, end of story. Yet, Scizor's usage is in decline these days because of Genesect's popularity, and you have to question why this should be approved when this set was rejected when Scizor was at its prime. If I'm seeing Scizor now, I'd be much more wary of Swords Dance variants to try and differentiate itself from Genesect (so yeah, use Protect and give it a free SD, I dare you). If anything, this set has become even less attractive than before as a result.
Click to expand...

Well; got me there. I'd agree that Genesect isn't a big concern for Gengar, but I think that Genosect will have issues with MYSTICGar just like any other choice user.
 
I'm fine with a merging of the two sets, though I'm not familiar with how that process works, but Protect is better than an AC.

I'd like to restate that there are not a lot of things that can switch into Gengar's Shadow Ball liberally without being heavily punished the next turn; in fact I can only thing of 7 common ones and one of those needs a Chople Berry. Two of those 7 are Genesect and Scizor, who currently are the #1 and #2 ranking of those 7. The others are Blissey, Chansey, Chople or the rare Scarf Ttar, Jirachi, and Tentacruel; there are some other situational ones but those aren't particularly useful in this metagame.

Genesect certainly won't try taking on Gengar early in the match unless its the only check they have -although MYSTICgar makes for a fantastic lead against it- but later, when Gengar gets significantly damaged, Genesect can switch-in and threaten Gengar and his team with any one of its 3 coverage moves. While it's entirely dependent on Gengar's team and its current standing in the match, that's risky business without Protect because Genesect if free to predict the switch-in, so the decision is Sac Gengar or risk another Pokemon; again this is dependent on the team and how its going in the match.

Another thing to note is that Gengar is a really obvious switch-in. Forretress, Donphan, Chansey, Gliscor, or a choice-locked Pokemon just beg for a Gengar switch and smart players are going to abuse that and force the double switch. Now Gengar's in a bad situation, staring down one of his counters or a Choice Scarf Pokemon, but if it has Protect, then no worries. With a few exceptions, Gengar will be in an advantageous position against his would-be counters.

I would like to go on but college comes before Pokemon so I must stop here.
 
Well I've been talking with couple of QC members, and they agree that 1) MysticGar is good, and 2) it should probably be merged with the Sub + 3 Atks set. They agree that MysticGar is probably more useful atm than Sub for this set, so Protect would probably be slashed before Substitute.

In this case, you may want to revamp the set on-site to merge the two sets together. You would have to re-name the set to something like 3 Atks. Maybe AC mention TBolt / Thunder to fuck up Tentacruel if you're using the Sub variant.
 
Actually, I still haven't warmed up to the idea of giving MysticGar representation outside of AC.
If we're fusing MysticGar into the Sub + 3 attacks set, Protect shouldn't be slashed before Substitute, since it's not as useful.

Princess Brii said:
i think that protect is just an overall "meh" option and should be ac'd. i mean i tested it for a while and i wished i had sub a lot. you cant block the spore vs ballsy brelooms, you can't beat tyranitar on the switch, SD scizor / RP gene get a free turn of setup.. CM Keldeo too. ditto also gets to copy you and revenge kill. it's not as good as sub
Click to expand...

I completely agree with Brii. Overall Gengar gets much more mileage out of Substitute than Protect in BW2. Protect is nowhere near as reliable as Substitute, and its really only effective against a few Pokemon; protect is effective against Choice Scarf Genesect, CB Tyranitar, CB Scizor. If Gengar matches up against any of these Pokemon that are running different sets, then you're liable to letting them set up (Swords Dance / Rock Polish & Stealth Rock). And in general, Gengar behind a sub is just dangerous, most teams offensive in nature end up losing a Pokemon trying to remove it from its sub.
 
I already QC'd this, if there are issues and we're reconsidering I'll be the first to do it again.
 
Alrighty~ Happy holidays everyone! Finally found the time to finish this guy while my new Wii U does it's unnecessarily long update.

I'm not sure if QC already agreed to pass it during their talks or just agreed the sets needed merged so I'll keep it in the QC phase to be safe until told otherwise. If I'm missing something or you want something changed around, I'll edit everything in ASAP.
 
Nice analysis Katakiri!

You say that Scizor, Forretress, and the blobs are the only Pokemon commonly seen in OU that can tank hits from LO Gengar. However, SpD Hippo (252 HP / 252 SpD, Impish Nature) and SpD Jirachi with Protect both wall Gengar and can LO stall him or even kill it with Iron Head / Thunder / Stone Edge / Ice Fang. There is also Multiscale Shuffler Dnite, which avoids a 2HKO from Shadow Ball even after SR, but it is not exactly common so yeah.
 
I don't mean to bring up this argument again, but I really think Protect should be the secondary slash..
 
Yea for reference, PKGaming and myself both would like to see Protect as the second slash. Both have there pros and cons, (which I trust you will make clear in the analysis) but Substitute is much more better, plus with Genesect having been voted Uber, Protect has an even smaller niche.

Once this is done ill approve it
 
Sorry for the delay. I can't seem to sit down at my PC much lately without getting dragged away for something.

All the changes have been applied! If I'm missing any specifics, please tell me so I can add them.
 
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