Gengar GP [0/2]

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
#1


Overview
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Gengar returns for another bout in OU, undisputed as the only Pokemon to consistently remain in the tier over the past decade or so. Gengar has always just been that good, and in XY it is no exception. The XY generation shift does little but benefit Gengar; the new Fairy-type gives Gengar another area to excel in, and the Steel-type losing its Ghost-type resistance makes it easier to Gengar to fit moves into a set, and harder to switch into. Not all is good for Gengar though, the general power creep in the metagame, like new priority abusers, former Ubers, Assault Vest users, and powerful Mega evolutions leave Gengar struggling to keep up. However, Gengar still remains as useful and unique as days past, its typing, ability, and support movepool let it act as a powerful stallbreaker, while its offensive stats and very good Speed-tier don't let it down as an attacker against offensive teams. A number of other traits, such as acting as a Spinblocker, and being an effective Destiny Bond user make Gengar a rather consistent choice for many teams, and quite unpredictable too. If you want to use Gengar, understand its role, its strengths, and its weaknesses. Do that, and you will find it very effective.


Utility Attacker
########
name: Utility Attacker
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Shadow Ball
move 3: Will-O-Wisp
move 4: Taunt / Sludge Wave / Disable
ability: Levitate
item: Black Sludge
evs: 28 HP / 148 SAtk / 80 SDef / 252 Spd
nature: Timid

Moves
========

Substitute allows Gengar to play around its poor bulk using its typing's defensive attributes advantageously by forcing the opponent to attack to deal with Gengar, this results in many free substitutes on Pokemon such as Chansey, Clefable, Gliscor, Venusaur, Ferrothorn and Amoonguss. Substitute is also necessary for Disable to function at all, and even against Pokemon that can defeat Gengar with attacks Substitute can block status moves, giving Gengar free turns. Substitute also provides counterplay to Sucker Punch users for Gengar. Shadow Ball is Gengar's STAB of choice, its autonomous neutral coverage is unrivaled, and it does pretty solid damage to most Pokemon, letting Gengar keep the pressure on. Will-O-Wisp is a fantastic move in general, on Gengar it is very valuable for pressuring defensive Pokemon, as well as severely crippling typical checks and counters, especially Pursuit, Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch users. Will-O-Wisp is almost always a great way to take advantage of a free turn and improves Gengars proficiency against offensive teams. Taunt's ability to stop the opponent from phazing out Gengar's substitutes, healing, setting entry hazards or using Defog turn Gengar is a powerful stallbreaker. Against Pokemon Gengar cant really damage that much while behind a sub such as Chansey, Sylveon, specially defnesive Hippowdon, specially defensive Heatran and other extra resilient special walls Taunt disrupts these Pokemon and makes them easy to switch into, or completely beatable for Gengar. Sludge Wave forms reasonably good coverage with Shadow Ball, and gives Gengar a nice power boost against neutral targets, as well as acting as a potent Fairy-type slayer. Disable disallows the opposing Pokemon from using the move they last used for 3 turns. This allows Gengar to prey upon opposing pokemon that rely on just one move to do significant damage to Gengar, as well as completely shutting down slower choiced attackers. Dropping Will-o-Wisp decreases Gengar's effectiveness against offensive teams however Taunt and Disable in Tandem are a nightmare to stall preventing the opponent from healing, or clearing hazards while Disable renders the opponent unable to damage Gengar at all with mono attack sets many stall Pokemon feature. Focus Blast forms perfect neutral coverage alongside Shadow Ball and is a very useful tool that lets Gengar patch up a weakness to Dark-types that attempt to beat Gengar with Sucker Punch, Pursuit, or just by virtue of their typing in general. It can be used in the last moveslot. Though Tyranitar and Bisharp are easily burned with WoW deterring them, it does not prevent Gengar from getting KO'd in the process. If your team values Gengar to the point where sacking it is unacceptable Focus Blast should be used.

Set Details
========

Black Sludge goes excellently with a set that ought to be creating a fair amount of free turns, it is necessary for Substitute to be as effective as possible. 28 HP / 148 SAtk / 80 SDef / 252 Spe Timid lets Gengar' substitutes survive a min SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain or Clefable Moonblast which lets Gengar deal with these common threats much more easily. If this is not a massive concern a simple Max SpA / Max Spe spread improves offensive capability while still being very proficient against defense.

Usage Tips
========

Gengar's unpredictability means that a number of moves such as Will-o-Wisp and Taunt will often be a surprise. This lets Gengar act as a solid Taunt lead, even Magic Coat users will falter. If you see opposing Smeargle or Deoxys-D, leading with Gengar is recommended. Against Stall teams Gengar is quite effective as it easily makes free substitutes on stall staples Chansey, Hippowdon, Clefable, and Gliscor. This success is exponentially greater with friendly entry hazards, as it often forces the opponent to switch around. Against stall teams aggressive Stealth Rock use, and getting Gengar into the fray is recommended. Against more offensive Gengar isn't as great, however its Speed can still be useful, Ghost-type weak Pokemon slower than Gengar can be easily checked, so keep that in mind, and Gengar' fast Will-o-Wisp can be used to shut down slower attackers if necessary. Subsitute + Disable preys well upon opponents that have little to hit Gengar with outside one coverage move, scouting for sets with teammates, or excessive substitute use may be helpful. Disable prevents slower choiced attackers from doing anything at all, again, scouting for these is valuable as it can buy Gengar free turns. Ferrothorn is easy prey, for substitute disable as it relies on just one attacking move to beat Gengar. If given a free turn behind a Substitute against a full strength Aegislash it is generally advisable to burn it, although Shadow Ball deals a lot of damage to Aegislash, Gengar will be forced out due to the threat of Shadow Sneak the next turn, therefore Will-O-Wisp will let you do more damage one on one, or make Aegislash much easier to deal with later in the match.

Team Options
========

When not using Focus Blast a strong Fighting- or Fairy- type partner to beat up on Dark-types that make life a pain for Gengar is appreciated. Azumarill, Terrakion and Keldeo are in general good choices for this. Gengar switches in to immunities the best, very strong and threatening pokemon that put sufficient pressure on the opponent to elect Fighting, Normal or Ground moves despite Gengar's prescence go well with Gengar. Life Orb Terrakion, for example. Due to the fact that Gengar can effectively render opponents unable to damage it with Disable or Taunt and Substitute, it often forces the opponent to switch. As such, entry hazard stacking racks up damage very efficiently. A skilled entry hazard setting partner, such as Deoxys, Terrakion, Garchomp, or Landorus can really punch holes in team indirectly. As damage from hazards surmount opponents may attempt to remove thse hazards. Opponents may not spin on Gengar to remove hazards thanks to Ghost typing, however they may Defog if Gengar lacks Taunt. Bisharp is a solid partner to Gengar in this regard as thanks to defiant it can acquire a +2 boost if the opponent defogs and you swap in Bisharp, or it can pressure the opponent to just not defogging at all, both favourable outcomes. On top of this Bisharp is a solid answer to answer to the ever present Aegislash who can check Gengar by threatening with its Shadow Sneak. Especially with Taunt this set is very good at stall breaking, insert it on teams that may struggle against this archetype. The few viable stall mons that can actually defeat Gengar such as Specially Defensive Heatran and Knock Off Gliscor need to be dealt with by teammates. Hidden Power Ice Terrakion is a very good Gliscor lure. Pokemon that relatively reliably take advantage of Heatran such as Mega Charizard X are also useful to help keep Heatran worn down.


Bond, Destiny Bond
########
name: Bond, Destiny Bond
move 1: Destiny Bond
move 2: Shadow Ball
move 3: Sludge Wave
move 4: Focus Blast / Thunderbolt
ability: Levitate
item: Life Orb
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

Destiny Bond lets Gengar take on a role of an all out attacker scoring KOs with pure power then taking a defensive check it can not muscle past with it. Destiny Bond provides insurance against Sucker Punch users as per turn order, Gengar will move after their Sucker Punch, it will fail, and next turn they will be trapped in a Destiny Bond next turn ensuring at least a trade of pokemon. Shadow Ball is a choice STAB, it has mediocre base power, however the amount of types it hits neutrally is fantastic, as well as the resistances to it uncommon. Focus Blast is important coverage for Normal and Dark types such as Tyranitar that resist Shadow Ball. Sludge Wave despite poor neutral coverage has the most power of any of Gengar's STAB, and thus it does the most raw damage to a neutral target and it has the utility of getting rid of Fairy-types. Thunderbolt deserves recognition as being capable of 2HKOing Manddibuzz who can sometimes tank 2 Sludge Waves, it is also valuable for doing the most damage agaisnt various targets weak to it such as a Gyarados, Azumarill and Keldeo. Taunt is something that can be considered in the last slot. It is useful for stopping a pokemon that is trying to play around Destiny Bond with status moves, as well it can let Gengar beat some very passive defensive threats like Blissey. Substitute can be inserted onto the set, usually over Destiny Bond. It offers the utility of preventing your opponent from safely sacrificing a slower pokemon to Gengar. Though useful it forfeits either coverage or Destiny Bond's utility and also can cause Gengar to end itself through passive damage.

Set Details
========

As this Gengar focuses only on offensive abilities maximum Speed and Special Attack optimize its effectiveness in this regard. A Life Orb is really the only choice for this Gengar's set as it demands the ability to switch moves, and also a lot of power.

Usage Tips
========
Fighting, Normal, and Ground-type moves can be switched into of course, but the opponent must be pressured into using them. For example if an opposing Terrakion is facing something that does not threaten it at all its unlikely to use Close Combat when Gengar is alive. Keep this in mind when attempting high risk switch ins. The same goes for resisted moves, Landorus can easily eliminate Gengar with Psychic but Sludge Wave, Earth Power and Focus Blast bounce of it. Really, this Gengar is a high risk high reward Pokemon, use its typing aggressively to get it in and deal damage. Even with bad defenses Gengar's typing lets it deal with mono attacking Fairy-types like Clefable, and Sylveon, as well as some attackers like Scolipede. These Pokemon should be capitalized on as hard as possible. With Destiny Bond this set works well early game, as it can still perform despite counters being in tact, get it in as soon as you can.

Team Options
========

This set is Gengar's best way to fight offense thanks to it being nearly impossible to switch into for less than bulky teams, and Destiny Bond being quite useful against them as well. Should your team need a better match up to offense this set is Gengar's best bet. Aegislash really likes it when you remove ghost counters such as Bisharp and Mandibuzz with Destiny Bond. Gengar tends to be at home on more offensive teams, its speed, power, utility and maverick like nature, along with being able to spin block are appreciated. Pair it alongside big powerful attackers like mega Gardevoir, Keldeo, Terrakion, Mega Medicham, Mega Mawile and other juggernauts for maximal hyper offensive power.


Other Options
########

Gengar has a couple of miscellaneous coverage options that can beat some specific pokemon, such as Energy ball, Psychic, and Dazzling Gleam but these moves limited application compared to the versatility and strength of Gengar's other options. A Choice Specs set thanks to Gengar's coverage and the lack of resistances to just Ghost-type moves may seem appealing, however it requires a hell of a lot of support to function. Hung out to dry against Pursuit and Sucker Punch users, as well as any strong prioirty or Choice Scarf user in general make it quite easy to check or trap. Despite these failings it can beat pretty much every counter with coverage, or Trick and the power behind Choice Specs makes it very hard to switch into. Overall it is inefficient compared to the other sets, but still usable. A Choice Scarf set can be used and can capitalize on Gengar's immunity to Normal-type moves to reliably revenge kill Extremespeed users however these are not the biggest threats in the metagame and overall it is pretty damn weak. Pain Split is an option that can let Sub Gengar recover health, affording a Life Orb in most situations too. As well it can hassle some defensive pokemon like Chansey or Clefable pretty well discourgaing healing, but utility Life Orb Gengar fails to be as effective against stall as Black Sludge, nor as effective as all out Destiny Bond attacker against offense so its a situational middle ground.

Checks & Counters
########

**Heatran**: Specially Defensive Heatran is immune to burns, takes Shadow Ball quite well, and in retaliation Lava Plume does enough to force Gengar out. However it is narrowily 2HKOed by Life Orb Focus Blast.

**Bulky Pursuit Users**: Bisharp and Tyranitar are both capable of trapping Gengar with Pursuit, which is an issue, though the right coverage moves from Gengar as well as Will-O-Wisp can deter them

**Assault vest users**: Conkeldurr, Raikou, Escavalier, Tyranitar, Tornadus-T and other Assault Vest users really ruin Gengar's day, unless they can be difused with Substitute + Disable Gengar is fighting a losing battle. Of all typical Assault Vest most are crippled by a Will-O-Wisp burn however.

**Strong Choice scarf users**: Garchomp, Tyranitar Terrakion, Excadrill, Landorus-T, and what have you are all quite good checks to a Gengar that is not behind a substitute as they all cleanly outspeed and KO. Tyranitar is especially troubling as it effortlessly traps and KOs Gengar if it can get in for free.

**Strong priority moves**: Scizor, Talonflame, and other powerful Priority users like these have no trouble checking Gengar due to its frailty. Sucker Punch users may seem like a good check but no Gengar set should eschew a countermeasure to this move whether it be Substitute, Destiny Bond, or Will-O-Wisp.

**Fast Offensive Checks**: Thundurus, Alakazam, and Greninja can easily check Gengar due to its bad defenses
 
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CyclicCompound

is a bicycle person thing
is a Contributor Alumnus
#2
Keep in mind I'm not QC, but I really don't think Spooky Plate (mentioned in the usage tips) is all that viable on SubDisable Gengar. Although SubDisable can be played around, its real value is against foes that only have one move that can actually bring Gengar down, either through coverage or through the use of Choice items, so revealing your set isn't as important as being able to create Substitutes over and over and over again. Considering the popularity of moves like Volt Switch or U-turn (+1 Genesect's U-turn breaks Gengar's subs) that bypass Disable, it's really important that Gengar be able to rely on its Substitutes to help destroy the opponent's team. Disable is more of a neat little perk that lets you be incredibly frustrating to play around, but it isn't where the majority of Gengar's offensive presence comes from. It's more in the use of Substitute, so having that passive recovery is paramount.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
#3
yeah you're probably right, sub disable buys a lot of free turns and it can basically put you back at full health. The surprise value of spooky plate along wit hthe power was interesting but overall limited Gengar too much.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
#4
Ok so I'd like to discuss this on irc and here because I've ben testing Gengar extensively and I think it's time to shake up these old sets.

I included Specsgar which has been out of favor for a long time in OU, but now with the updated type chart I feel is it worthy of a set, it is just so good at breaking down walls, defensively it simply put has no counters and it cant really be taken advantage of like Draco Meteor spam or soemthing.

On to the main point however. Because so little resists just ghost on its own it is very viable to combine 3 utility moves, and still have a good offensive prescene with JUST shadow ball. Substitute is necessary as it makes pain split and disable functional. Disable and Pain split are probably the most useful moves Gengar has to mess around wit hthe opponent. Combing both is quite deadly, on top of this really useful shit like destiny bond, and Will-o-wisp can be stuffed onto either set as in the past sub + utility was indispensable and two attacks were also necessary. Now, I feel as if focus blast/sludge wave can be dropped without really compromising Gengar. Gengar is a fuckin prick and pretty much always gets a kill or two, after that foddering it off with a destiny bond when its going to lose to something slower than it just really messes with the opponent. As well as this Will-o-wisp is jus annoying as shit in general and can really make good use of Gengar's free turns behind a subsitute. Of course in team options it will be clearly stated that with just shadow ball youll need teammates that can handle DArk and Normal types.

Do we agree? Is a single attack Gengar too exploitable, or does it improve Gengar? I say it does improve it. The set names will persist, but i'll be slashing WoW and Destiny Bond next to the coverage move on them. Or mentioning them in set comments. HOnestly though I think sub disable split @ life orb is a straight upgrade over sub disable because it lets you heal still, as well as do a lot of damage thanks to life orb.
 
#5
Why Sludge Wave over Sludge Bomb? Is the extra 5 base power really better than a higher % of poisoning your target?

Looking to seeing this finished, btw. Last preview was never finished. </3
 
#6
Infernape makes a great partner : Even if they both share a Psychic weakness, Gar can come on the EQs aimed at Nape, while Nape takes care of common pursuiters : Ttar, Zor, Krookdile, and with Mach Punch Absol and Weavile.
 
#8
SubWisp Gengar was its best set and the first one in the analysis last generation o_o

I've used the set a hell of a lot (Sub / WoW / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast, and the utility is awesome. I never really liked SubDisable, and I am not a SubSplit fan either. However, WoW is a stellar move. Looking to wear down Rotom-W? Done. Wanna catch Tyranitar and not have to risk Focus Blast (which doesn't OHKO)? Wanna hit Bisharp or Mawile instead of getting Sucker Punched to death? All easy. You wreck Landorus-T, can screw up PH Gliscor as it switches in, and cripple most physical attackers. What's not to like? It's the best move available to Gengar on Sub + utility move, besides /maybe/ Pain Split.
 

Colonel M

OHO!
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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#9
Chesnaught is kind of uncommon to really justify throwing out Sludge Bomb IMO. I think Sludge Wave is more of a mention for Moves section. I mean let's face it - when Gengar has Substitute what is Chesnaught going to do back anyway unless it suddenly packs Payback (which is usually missing on the current analysis) and Stone Edge (which SubDisable can prevent).
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
#11
I preferred the power and lack of bulletproof walling in testing, however sludge wave has been changed to sludge bomb until chesnaught usage rises. What chesnuaght does do is set up spikes and then roar your sub out which is a problem but it's too rare.
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
#12
I discussed things with PK Gaming and ginganinja, and we would like you to make the following changes:
  1. Switch the order of the first and third sets. Sub-Disable struggles against the present meta, and Gengar prefers to hit things as hard as possible right off the bat, especially since it is so difficult to switch into his Shadow Ball this gen.
  2. The third set is a mess right now, when it comes to slashes. This is what it should look like:
Life Orb Attacker
########
name: Life Orb Attacker
move 1: Thunderbolt / Destiny Bond
move 2: Shadow Ball
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Sludge Bomb
ability: Levitate
item: Life Orb
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves:
  • Hidden Power Fire, but Shadow Ball against a neutral target deals the same amount of damage as Hidden Power Fire against a 2X Super Effective target. As a result, it's really just for being able to OHKO Scizor and Genesect.
  • Protect, to scout Choiced Pursuit.
  • Substitute, but without Pain Split or Leftovers, Gengar isn't going to live for long.
 
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#13
  • All combinations of moves are valid to be honest but it looks like a damn mess. Need ot fix this.
I would suggest that SubSplit receive a separate analysis instead of being under the umbrella "Utility Attacker".

It would seem SubSplit works better against stall teams since Gengar outspeeds most of their Pokemon and can utilize Pain Split as a means of increasing its bulk and their Pokemon usually cannot KO it. Still, LO Shadow Ball cannot 2HKO walls like mixed Hippowdon. It is noteworthy that Gengar as a statistical edge in protracted battles against non-Normal walls that choose to stay in and cannot phaze it, such as Gastrodon, due to Shadow Ball's Special Defense drop.

Against offensive teams, Black Sludge is better since it preserves its health and prevents it from being set-up bait (which also includes the mere act of Mega Evolution by KOing a weak Pokemon with priority then switching out) against their more offensive Pokemon (for instance it survive a Bullet Punch from physical Mega Luke at ~60%-70% and put in KO range for Assault Vest Conkeldurr's Mach Punch with Shadow Ball or it can KO with Focus Blast, and its only recourse is to use weaker priority attacks to damage Conkeldurr or switch out) and it would usually not have the time to use Pain Split against them and there are less suitable targets for it on offensive teams.

====
One of the reason why I did not like Gengar in Gen 5 because it suffered from the indignity that a prominent physical wall checks it (Skarmory) since it could resist Ghost and its only recourse is to use Focus Miss to 2HKO it while Skarmory can Brave Bird, but with the Ghost buff/Steel nerf Gengar's presence can pressure Stall teams physical walls. It makes it easier to kill things like Heatran and Ferrothorn. Although Focus Blast will need to be used against them if Gengar wants to breakthrough them, it makes it a lot easier strip that last 25% against them since you can use Shadow Ball instead of Focus Blast.

The Steel buff should be explicitly mentioned in the overview to provide some historical context. Its quad bug resistance is quite valuable since Download special Genesect U-turn cannot break its Sub (as this is less appreciated than its immunity to Toxic, Ground, Normal, and Fighting). If Scarf Genesect wants to KO it, it has to use Iron Head or one of its special coverage moves, which are weaker due to Gengar's higher Special Defense. It is not U-turn bait like Greninja.

+1 0 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 50-59 (19 - 22.5%) -- possible 5HKO


+1 252 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 61-72 (23.2 - 27.4%) -- 68.8% chance to 4HKO
(61, 61, 62, 63, 64, 64, 65, 66, 67, 67, 68, 69, 70, 70, 71, 72)

A 4 HP Gengar has a 65 HP Sub (from 262 HP) so a neutral-nature physical Genesect has a 37.5% chance of breaking it with U-turn.
 
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Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
#14
life orb is still valid against offensive team because it just does so much damage to them, but a life orb set against offense should be the 3 attack destiny bond. Pain split is much less efficient against offense, this is true, its main function is to defeat defensive pokemon (like this: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-75428860). Agaisnt an offensive team, will-o-wisp as one of the utility moves alongside disable, or focus blast would be optimal. As i've stated in the analysis Black Sludge is to be used if you lack pain split. I'll definitely articulate in the usage tips that Life Orb Pain Split is best suited for fighting defense, while Black Sludge Will-o-Wisp is best for fighting offense. Disable is good against both in some situations.

Beyond that the sets play fairly similarly, and I feel combining them improves the analysis. They both have the same idea. Set up a sub, and deal with the opponent in front of you with the move that does the most to them whether it be shadow ball, Will-o-wisp, or baiting a disable.
 

CyclicCompound

is a bicycle person thing
is a Contributor Alumnus
#15
Hey, so I tried something kind of weird today and I really actually like it. I don't know if this deserves a slash, reference in the Moves section, or OO mention, but in my opinion it's a viable choice for Gengar. This may have been brought up in our IRC discussions a while back, but I don't recall anything quite like this.

TauntGar
########
name: TauntGar
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Disable
move 3: Taunt
move 4: Shadow Ball
ability: Levitate
item: Black Sludge
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Basically, the great thing about this set is that it lets you beat almost every single defensive Pokemon in the tier other than basically defensive Rotom-W. SubDisable serves its normal purpose—helping against the threats that only have one move to hit Gengar for substantial damage. Taunt not only denies many Pokemon recovery, phazing, etc., but also forces a lot of them to struggle after their single attacking move has been used up (think every bulky water type ever, Heatran, Chansey, Skarmory, Sylveon, possibly Ferrothorn, Gliscor, and my favorite one to beat, Mandibuzz). In conjunction with entry hazards and the fact that very little wants to switch into Shadow Ball, what this Gengar accomplishes is damage that is much more evenly spread throughout a team, which is many cases is better than having one Pokemon KO'd, Gengar without a substitute, and another opponent's Pokemon at full health. Offensively, however, this Gengar still does okay for the most part. Losing a second attack is regrettable in the presence of Tyranitar, Diggersby and Staraptor, but most of the time, none of them are much of a problem (Tyranitar can't trap a Gengar behind a substitute, Diggersby often only has one move that actually hits Gengar and therefore falls prey to Disable, and Staraptor always carries a Choice item).

Basically, I equate this to Substitute Shuffler KyuB in Gen V. Yes, you could be outright attacking and probably dealing a lot more damage in the short run, and in some cases, an outright attacking set is certainly preferred. However, this set lets you slowly dismantle teams, spreading damage around, and makes it extremely hard for anything without several offensive ways of overpowering Gengar to actually do so and gain a foothold. Paired with a strong late-game cleaner like Mega Pinsir, you have a very good shot at sweeping just from the effect of using this Gengar.

Also, it fucks up stall (and defensive playstyles in general) big-time, if you already couldn't tell.

Again, it kind of looks gimmicky on paper since you only get to attack with one move, but I'm growing more and more attached to this set.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
#16
CyclicCompound

you know what taunt + disable is really good for. If you can stack hazards and start forcing swithces around, sometimes the opp tries to defog on Gengar, taunt just shuts that right down. I'll play with this set and probably give it a mention in the utility attacker set, seems cool.
 
#17
I'm surprised there's no mention of a Sub + 3 Attacks set, considering how extremely well it's been working for me. Using Substitute allows Gengar to deal with most revenge killers that the Destiny Bond set couldn't, like Talonflame and Aegislash, while still allowing Gengar to clean up a weakened team. Then again, Shadow Ball hits such a stupidly high amount of Pokemon that Gengar barely even needs to run any coverage moves, so I guess the Utility Attacker is overall superior. I don't know, just my word for it.
 
#18
I feel like Psychic should be given slightly more mention

With LO it gets guaranteed:
OHKOs on 4/0 Infernape, 252/0 Scolipede and 4/0 Keldeo + Terrakion 50% of the time after SR
2HKOs on 252/168 MVenu, 0/252 AV Conk and 252/240+ Cruel 91.8% of the time after SR

EDIT: Also it OHKO's 252/0 Bulletproof Chesnaught 43.8% of the time after Stealth Rock which otherwise walls you

All of these OHKOs/2HKOs would not have been achieved without Psychic

Also I just want to say amazing set name on the DBond set. Literally my favourite of all time :heart:
 
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Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
#19
I'm surprised there's no mention of a Sub + 3 Attacks set, considering how extremely well it's been working for me. Using Substitute allows Gengar to deal with most revenge killers that the Destiny Bond set couldn't, like Talonflame and Aegislash, while still allowing Gengar to clean up a weakened team. Then again, Shadow Ball hits such a stupidly high amount of Pokemon that Gengar barely even needs to run any coverage moves, so I guess the Utility Attacker is overall superior. I don't know, just my word for it.
Sub 2 attacks is a valid combination under utility attacker, a pretty similar set but a bit better. The issue I had with sub + 3 attacks was that without life orb you're kinda weak, and with life orb and sub with no method of healing you lose all your HP without hte opponent even attacking you directly. With Pain Split to heal yo ucan harrass chansey, and stay in the fight against other beefy wallsi f you get a sub on them.

I feel like Psychic should be given slightly more mention

With LO it gets guaranteed:
OHKOs on 4/0 Infernape, 252/0 Scolipede and 4/0 Keldeo + Terrakion 50% of the time after SR
2HKOs on 252/168 MVenu, 0/252 AV Conk and 252/240+ Cruel 91.8% of the time after SR

EDIT: Also it OHKO's 252/0 Bulletproof Chesnaught 43.8% of the time after Stealth Rock which otherwise walls you

All of these OHKOs/2HKOs would not have been achieved without Psychic

Also I just want to say amazing set name on the DBond set. Literally my favourite of all time :heart:
It's definitely not a useless move, though sludge wave is better at hitting chesnaught. In the write up ill make sure Psychic has its own sentence to explain some relevant targets.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
#21
du told me to put it there. Its rly fst and a surprise but not much else. Its more or less just a relic of DPP I think
 

alexwolf

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#22
I would like to see the Scarf set replaced with Specs. SpecsGar hits pretty fucking hard, has a very spammable STAB with very few Pokemon able to switch into Shadow Ball alone, and has Trick to fuck up the blobs, leaving it free to terrorize stall teams after crippling them. Shadow Ball + Sludge Wave + Focus Blast + Trick is the moveset, with maybe WoW over Focus Blast if you plan on getting rid of the scarf early.

Oh, also most Baton Pass teams lack a Poison resist / immunity those days (Scolipede + Espeon + Vaporeon + Mr. Mime + Zapdos + Sylveon), so Specs Sludge Wave is a great asset to have against those teams, as the only CM users found on those teams are usually Fairy-types and can't switch into Gengar at all. Also Specs Sludge Wave does ~50% to max HP Scolipede, which means that you can lead with it and start spamming it from the get go.
 
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#23
I was about to write the exact same thing. Gengar is one of the best Specs users this gen, right on par with Latios and Keldeo if you ask me. Nothing besides Blissey and Chansey can switch into it with impunity. It cleanly 2HKOes special wall Rotom-W and max spdef AV Conk with Sludge Wave and it OHKOes the vast majority of offensive pokemon with the appropriate move. Specs Shadow ball is almost impossible to switch into, as most things that resists it is easily killed by Specs Sludge Wave/Bomb. Even things like special wall Heatran can lose to it if you get the spdef drop, and 252/252 Careful Hippowdon can lose to Shadow Ball (takes well over 40% and can't hit Gengar back, which will mean that it loses after one spdef drop.

TBolt is an option on that set too, especially if your team needs a good answer to Manaphy and/or Keldeo. Trick is very strong, though it is generally a very risky move this gen due to the existence of mega evos. You lose two full turns every time your opponent switches a mega into your choice tricker.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
#24
Specs Gengar is bad. Its pursuit/sucker punch bait extrodanaire and Gengar doesnt really have the easiest time switching in. If using specs gar and the opponent has pursuit Tyranitar or Bisharp you just lose it. With Life ORb attacker you can just nuke them with focus blast or hit them with Destiny Bond.
 
#25
I pretty much agree with Ash on this one. Specs Gengar is inferior to LO Gengar when looking at the bigger picture. The former does hit dangerously hard, but the fact that you can get locked into a Ghost or Poison attack is too risky in a metagame where things such as Pursuit Bisharp/Aegislash and Mega DD Tar exist. LO Gengar's power is not that far behind, and you have the ability to punish more threats with your coverage and the amazing Destiny Bond. Furthermore, against the majority of teams, Destiny Bond has more utility than Trick, simply because Destiny Bond works against anything and is more troublesome for the opponent to play around. The last thing you want to do is Trick your Choice Specs on the wrong target, if there even is a target that you'd want to Trick against in the first place.

I would be fine with keeping Choice Specs + Trick in OO, as that is where I believe it belongs.

In terms of Choice Scarf, I'm not entirely satisfied with that being a main set either. It's basically just like Choice Specs but far weaker and more susceptible to Pursuit and whatnot. I mean, I guess it's a fast revenge killer of sorts, but why not just use Deoxys-S? The metagame is riddled with priority anyway, so I feel like Gengar is more effective with freed up coverage. I'd like to know what dragonuser's thoughts were behind it.
 
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