I don't get it. If all this talk is about perish song trapping why not just ban perish song MGengar in Competitive plays? What's posted a few posts above me allows me to believe that offensive MGengar isn't a threat while Perish Song MGengar is a threat. There's nothing wrong with it's other sets but they're all going to be banned too because of one set. Just move that set to uber then.
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Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]
- Thread starter McMeghan
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Yea, but Shed Shell is a very situational item, that offers nothing outside of providing an out to Mega Gengar. Sure, I guess we can run a team of ghost types + Shed Shell mons, but thats hardly effective, and ends up supporting the pro ban side of things due to the stupid amount of over-preparation each team would resort to using to avoid Mega Gengar. If you only run a single shed shell mon, then sure, Mega Gengar won't trap it, but it can still trap something else, not to mention your missing out on better items such as LO / Leftovers or a Choice Item.
We don't really do complex bans, and in this case its not just perish Song Mega Gengar thats frustrating, there is nothing stopping a Mega Gengar set with 3 attacks + Destiny Bond for instance, trapping what it needs to, and then taking down a pokemon alone with Mega Gengar if something slower and bulkier tries to revenge. The massive amout of variety Mega Gengar has makes it exceptionally difficult to stop it trapping what it wants, especially as often, you won't know its full moveset.
Kindly contact OU Council member Haunter if you want to discuss complex bans with him, this thread isn't the place for a discussion on how our suspect process should work.
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It's not just his perish trapping. . .
He's the perfect "anti-sweeper" (counter) killer. If you're running a certain sweeper, mGengar can trap whatever counters your sweeper, and take it out so that your sweeper can do whatever it pleases.
That's not something that should be freely roaming around in OU.
The way I see it, you're ignoring the fact that MGengar can't switch in in anything, so he's essentialy a revenge utility. Yeah, maybe you can switch in as Gengar in a Earthquake/Fight move, but Gengar usually doesn't treat any Earthquake users with a OHKO, and will probably take a huge dent on his HP while he mega Evolves. It's not broken in any shape or form atm, you CAN switch in a pethora of mons on Gengar, and with the addition of Assault Vest, you can switch in even more. Goodra completely walls gengar/mega gengar, whilst threatening a draco meteor k.o. or dragon pulse 2hko, and Gengar does laughable damage while he's at it.
"Oh, but I don't want to HAVE to use a Special Wall in my team"
Well mate, then you're not only going to be crushed by Gengar, you're also be crushed by any shape or form of a Special Attacker.
Although as a whole, he should not be banned. But, if he mega evolves with no damage done to him what so ever, the Perish Song | Protect | Substitute set is utterly broken. But this set, and only this set is broken. Stop this gibberish about 4 attack gengar wiping the floor and opening pathways to heaven, he still is a frail mon that can't ohko any single threat and, with team preview? If you leave your only Steel Wall to die on a Gengar, knowing that the opponent has a Garchomp still alive and kicking on his team, you're bad and you should feel bad.
This Perish set makes me remember Murkrow in BW, it's a gimmick. For it to work you can't take damage, you need to run Shadow Ball (otherwise you're completely walled), and you still have a frail mon that can only come in on a immune move (and if you're already evolved, only fightning moves).
Nah, won't break the meta any more than Scizor did on DP. I would vote no.
"Oh, but I don't want to HAVE to use a Special Wall in my team"
Well mate, then you're not only going to be crushed by Gengar, you're also be crushed by any shape or form of a Special Attacker.
Although as a whole, he should not be banned. But, if he mega evolves with no damage done to him what so ever, the Perish Song | Protect | Substitute set is utterly broken. But this set, and only this set is broken. Stop this gibberish about 4 attack gengar wiping the floor and opening pathways to heaven, he still is a frail mon that can't ohko any single threat and, with team preview? If you leave your only Steel Wall to die on a Gengar, knowing that the opponent has a Garchomp still alive and kicking on his team, you're bad and you should feel bad.
This Perish set makes me remember Murkrow in BW, it's a gimmick. For it to work you can't take damage, you need to run Shadow Ball (otherwise you're completely walled), and you still have a frail mon that can only come in on a immune move (and if you're already evolved, only fightning moves).
Nah, won't break the meta any more than Scizor did on DP. I would vote no.
Okay, I was really just curious what someone would say to what I said. I was originally anti-ban, but as of now I'm not sure.
While this is true if you have to start running Shed Shell on nearly all of your wall just to make sure MGengar doesn't lead to your team being swept by something this imo is overcentralising the Metagame and unhealthy for OU and should result in a ban.
Anyway I voted to ban it and thought I should quickly just say why, even though just quickly reading through this thread its been said a million times.
MGengar should be banned under the support clause. It is the single best support Pokémon in the metagame and possibly to ever exist. Shadow Tag means it has no true counter once mega evolved, it has great typing, great stats receiving enough of a boost in its bulk so its not frail (it's not bulky either though), has great speed at base 130 meaning it can outspeed the majority, has base 170 S.Attack to hit like truck and most importantly a killer move pool that allows you to tailor it to what you need it to take out and allow another one of your members to destroy the enemy team.
So all of this is pointless without examples so ill use one. I recently built a team around Shift Gear Genesect and MGengar. Shift Gear Genesect is a pretty decent Pokémon but suffer from coverage and is probably inferior to RP Genesect as a sweeper due to its shallow physical move pool. However I wanted to use it because it gets ESpeed to beat Talonflame. Anyway MGengar immanently patched Genesect poor coverage and allowed it to pull of many sweeps for me. The rest of my team consisted of a SR setter and then just Volt-Turn combo's which eased prediction and more often than not allowed me to get Gengar in for free and trap and kill one of Genesects counters.
The list of Pokémon that gave my Genesect trouble and are OU viable in consist of:
Rotom-W
Heatran
Skarmory
Metagross
Jirachi
Aegislash
Bronzong
Magnezone
Foretress
Excadrill
Ferrothorn
With a simple moveset of Shadow Ball, Giga Drain, Focus Blast and Destiny Bond on MGengar I can pretty much take out all of these guys and make room for Genesect to sweep. Heatran is Ko'ed by a combination of Focus Blast and Shadow ball and can not OHKO me, Rotom is killed by Giga Drain, Skarm is 2 hit Ko'ed by shadow ball and cant OHKO, after a few rock switch ins and some U-Turn damage sometimes I could OHKO Skarm. Metagross, Jirachi and Bronzong are destroyed by Shadow Ball, Magnezone and Excadrill by a Focus Blast, Ferrothorn dies to Focus Blast + Shadow Ball and can't OHKO and lastly Aegislash can't OHKO with Shadow Sneak and is either left with little HP that Genesect can break through him or dies when its in blade form. After taking out one or two of these counters sometimes I could even net a third kill with Destiny Bond making my job even easier.
If MGengar stays I can see this play style becoming very popular. A team that focuses on one or two sweepers, is volt-turn heavy and has MGengar sitting in the back to pick of counters for your sweepers to and allow them to sweep teams. This would be unhealthy for the metagame and the only way to counter it is to run Shed Shell on all of your walls to make sure MGengar can't trap and kill them leaving you helpless. And at that stage the loss of an item will take it's tole on your team in another way.
This is why Gengarite should be banned. MGengar is just way to good at it's job, its literally unstoppable at what it does. You can't counter it due to Shadow Tag. When faced by an opponent who is competent with MGengar your pretty much guaranteed to lose of your checks/counters to something and as a consequence severely putting your team at a disadvantage against that player.
This is why mGengar tend to ME and protect at the same time. Clearly, you're not going to keep a mGengar in on something with a powerful EQ anyways, so, Why even bring that up?
The difference between "Oh But I don't want to HAVE to use a special wall in my team" and what is actually happening is, mGengar can still take out Special walls. What the hell can Blissey do to mGengar? Humor me. All mGengar has to do is persih trap your blissey and watch it go.
He is meant, if you use him correctly, to take out whatever threatens your team. And it's damn near guaranteed when he does it. mGengar is not meant to stay in and deal damage while staying alive. It doesn't need to end the turn alive to do its job. If it takes that one thing that threatened their sweeper, it did it's job.
It's not just a special attacker, get that out of your head.
People know how to play this game. No one is going to switch in a mGengar on something that can EQ it. It's not going to stay in on something that can prankster taunt it. mGengar can switch out when he feels threatened. Your Poke, can't. And as long as he is already Mega Evolved, he can pave way for whomever the "sweeper" is.
Oh, this, this, and that stops my sweeper from sweeping? Cool, now I know how to tailor my mGengar.
Get the thought of him being JUST a strong special sweeper out of your head and you'll see why it's broken beyond belief.
There's a HUGE difference between Arena Trap and Shadow Tag. . . Arena Trap doesn't stop flying types, nor levitaters. Dugtrio also doesn't have Destiny Bond, or Perish Song. . . You can't even compare the two. . .
There are things that scare Gengar out. Naturally. BUT, they have to already be out! You can't switch them in. If he is already Mega Evolved mark yourself fucked, because unless you are predicting really well, you're losing whatever is in place. . .
You say things counter it, however, if it's not already in on mGengar, it can't counter it can it. . ?
I'll answer that for you, No, you can't. . .
Well, what do you know, switching in on a Pokemon's attack is what makes a counter. . .
Noivern can run specs and still out speed modest mega gengar, Modest mega gengar is simply to slow prior and after mega evolving
And Shadow Tag can't trap Ghosts, or pivots, or Red Card or Shed Shell phases. The two are compared in that both have a trapping niche, one is definitely more effective, but neither break the OU metagame.
We've already established Gengar must first Mega Evolve to obtain Shadow Tag, and always gives the player a chance for a good counter, a counter which, naturally, forces Gengar out or deals with it immediately.
Why do we ban Pokemon from respective metagames? They either completely break the metagame, and/or force a player to use 1 or 2 specific counters.
We've listed many ways to work around Gengarite's Shadow Tag. We've listed many ways to check or counter it. We've listed its pros and cons.
In no real way does it actually break the metagame or force players to rely on only 1 sure counter.
You have ONE chance to switch in a "counter". After that one chance is gone, you can no longer counter it. After that one chance, the ONLY way you can "switch in" this apparently amazing counter is if something dies first. THAT IS mGENGARS JOB! To kill things with little to no effort. . .
It gets a damn near guaranteed KILL. . .
How is that not breaking the metagame?
Ban Mega-Gengar, easy said and done. If anyone was playing with Chandelure back in Gen 5, you would know that Shadow Tag is a flawed game design and should be get rid of immediately.
Competent people would of banned Gengarite of the get-go, also why is Thundurus Prankster allowed in OU?
Competent people would of banned Gengarite of the get-go, also why is Thundurus Prankster allowed in OU?
. . .
It's not JUST the trapping that makes him broken. . . Have you read ANYTHING any of us have said. . ?
The trapping just helps him in doing his job perfectly.
What do you not get about IT HAS TO ALREADY BE IN PLACE.
If said Pivot isn't already in on mGengar, what good does it do?
If the "counter" isn't already in on mGengar it can't be a counter!
Meaning whatever IS already in on mGengar, is going to die. That is not something that should be running around in OU.
Period.
Fun fact: Gengar keeps Shadow Tag after mega evolving if it switches out! Therefore, if you think of it:
Gengar evolves > switch in counter > gengar switches out to counter > you have a trapper and you can still shit around
If it's a pursuiter Gengar can still play mindgames with it.
Gengar can Perish Song + ME on the switch too, and Sub/Protect his way to victory.
Either way, it matters not if Gengar gets destroyed by a 'counter' (if it even exists), check, whatever. If pulled off well, it has successfully done its job in aiding something else to sweep.
Sure, you can argue that Dugtrio and Wobbuffet does the same too. But how exactly is Dugtrio and Wobbuffet relevant to the current metagame? Looking at the most used Pokemon, Dugtrio is OHKO'd by Aegislash given the presence of a layer of Spikes, Greninja and Talonflame literally don't give 2 shits about Dugtrio (greninja outruns, talonflame just laughs especially if hazards exist). Gengar's natural SpAtk is high enough that it can get away with running a more defensive setup (investing some HP and Def EVs, I remember this being mentioned a lot earlier in the thread but I'm not in the mood to look for it now), Dugtrio doesn't. Wobbuffet is pretty much the same; gen 5 already speaks a lot about Wobbuffet's true worth in the metagame (read: can't withstand too many hits, custap works but can also be played around with, only reliably killing scarfers).
A DBond + 3 attacks set tailored to the needs of a player's team can 2hko most offensive pokemon, and defensive Pokemon fear Perish Song. The problem with Gengar is not 4mss. The problem is that you literally have no idea what the fuck it carries when it first switches in. Even at the stage where Gengar is still not evolved, when you switch in your so-called counter you're banking on the fact that "fuck it better not be carrying this or i'm fucked". Switch in a special sponge like Blissey or Florges (never mind the latter can get eaten by Sludge Bomb)? You need to pray that it's not the Perish trapper. A so-called 'counter'? It better be switching in on something resisted, and we aren't mentioning how Gengar can still switch out (Shadow Ball is so ridiculously easy to spam you're only really screwed if Tyranitar walks in, but Assault Vest Tyranitar can get worn down by hazards and it's still 2HKO'd by Focus Blast, and Gengar can just bail out with Destiny Bond).
I initially voted No Ban (although that was like last week or so), but after messing around for a bit, I think Gengarite's pretty much worthy of a ban.
Gengar evolves > switch in counter > gengar switches out to counter > you have a trapper and you can still shit around
If it's a pursuiter Gengar can still play mindgames with it.
Gengar can Perish Song + ME on the switch too, and Sub/Protect his way to victory.
Either way, it matters not if Gengar gets destroyed by a 'counter' (if it even exists), check, whatever. If pulled off well, it has successfully done its job in aiding something else to sweep.
Sure, you can argue that Dugtrio and Wobbuffet does the same too. But how exactly is Dugtrio and Wobbuffet relevant to the current metagame? Looking at the most used Pokemon, Dugtrio is OHKO'd by Aegislash given the presence of a layer of Spikes, Greninja and Talonflame literally don't give 2 shits about Dugtrio (greninja outruns, talonflame just laughs especially if hazards exist). Gengar's natural SpAtk is high enough that it can get away with running a more defensive setup (investing some HP and Def EVs, I remember this being mentioned a lot earlier in the thread but I'm not in the mood to look for it now), Dugtrio doesn't. Wobbuffet is pretty much the same; gen 5 already speaks a lot about Wobbuffet's true worth in the metagame (read: can't withstand too many hits, custap works but can also be played around with, only reliably killing scarfers).
A DBond + 3 attacks set tailored to the needs of a player's team can 2hko most offensive pokemon, and defensive Pokemon fear Perish Song. The problem with Gengar is not 4mss. The problem is that you literally have no idea what the fuck it carries when it first switches in. Even at the stage where Gengar is still not evolved, when you switch in your so-called counter you're banking on the fact that "fuck it better not be carrying this or i'm fucked". Switch in a special sponge like Blissey or Florges (never mind the latter can get eaten by Sludge Bomb)? You need to pray that it's not the Perish trapper. A so-called 'counter'? It better be switching in on something resisted, and we aren't mentioning how Gengar can still switch out (Shadow Ball is so ridiculously easy to spam you're only really screwed if Tyranitar walks in, but Assault Vest Tyranitar can get worn down by hazards and it's still 2HKO'd by Focus Blast, and Gengar can just bail out with Destiny Bond).
I initially voted No Ban (although that was like last week or so), but after messing around for a bit, I think Gengarite's pretty much worthy of a ban.
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
okay, I'm going to try and make a post later detailing on why I don't find the profile of gengar's trapping ability to be as broken as purported by a large portion of the community but, in the mean time i'll say this. If you sub/protect against a pursuit trapper you have two options. On the turn before perish song activates, switch out and die to pursuit, or stay in an die to perish song, dont be stupid. Tyranitar, scizor, and some more obscure pursuit users are capable of completely arresting the perish trap set if it does not sub on the switch. If it does then it has to relegate 25% hp doing so meaning that, especially if you have gotten any hazards on the field gengar's perish trapping ability is limited by its reduced HP. Mind you this is just the perish trap set, but it is a fact.
Scizor isn't safe from a 0 SpA Shadow Ball 2HKO which gengar is perfectly capable of running on perish trap (sub/protect/perish song, what's the last move, mean look?). The only thing that actually does perfectly check perish trapper is Tyranitar (and random things like Weavile, whom you don't really see often, and other dark-types). Scizor can Pursuit, yes, but Scizor is realistically only winning if 1. SR, Pursuit OHKOes even without switching, 2. no SR, but there's no CB and Scizor can win with Pursuit + Bullet Punch. Assuming the gengar user doesn't predict that and simply switches out, too.
It's a 50/50 either way.
It's a 50/50 either way.
I ask you this one, simple question. . .
What good does this check do if it isn't already switched into mGengar?
Yes, there ARE checks to mGengar, no one here is saying there isn't. There aren't counters however. THAT is what I am saying.
Anyway, if the check isn't already in on mGengar, it means something is going down. Once that thing goes down, it has done its job. Feel free to pursuit me, It's meant to die anyways at that point.
This is not about Dugtrio. The two do completely different things. Stop bringing it up.
What good does this check do if it isn't already switched into mGengar?
Yes, there ARE checks to mGengar, no one here is saying there isn't. There aren't counters however. THAT is what I am saying.
Anyway, if the check isn't already in on mGengar, it means something is going down. Once that thing goes down, it has done its job. Feel free to pursuit me, It's meant to die anyways at that point.
This is not about Dugtrio. The two do completely different things. Stop bringing it up.
I think the reason Gengarite deserves a suspect test is simply because it's the last real problem, thus it deserves a suspect test more than anyone else (which I will now elaborate on as to why).
I understand that suspect tests eat up an enormous amount of time and are an arduous process. I understand why we do not want to suspect test everything. I too desire to reach "the metagames final form" as quickly as everyone else does. However I feel that we will reach that point as soon as the fate of MegaGengar is decided. There are perhaps one or two other pokemon that we will suspect afterwards that end up earning a ban. When deciding who undergoes a suspect test I feel that the most deserving pokemon are whoever ends up being the 'closest to OU but banned' and the 'closest to banned but kept OU'. Obviously we can't know who those pokemon will end up being but I think it is an extremely high likelihood that MegaGengar is going to be that 'closest to OU but banned' and thus deserves to be suspected.
I am personally a firm advocate of avoiding bans at all costs. Despite being so anti-ban I am personally of the belief that MegaGengar deserves a quickban because of the DestinyBond and PerishSong sets that 95% of the playerbase doesn't know how to use but are broken when used by good players. However the objective side of me cannot help but believe that not matter how sure I personally am that MegaGengar deserves a ban, the sensible thing to do is suspect test the two cases either side of the ban/not-banned divide. Thus it is because I believe MegaGengar to eventually be the final ban that it deserves to have got there through a suspect test.
I understand that suspect tests eat up an enormous amount of time and are an arduous process. I understand why we do not want to suspect test everything. I too desire to reach "the metagames final form" as quickly as everyone else does. However I feel that we will reach that point as soon as the fate of MegaGengar is decided. There are perhaps one or two other pokemon that we will suspect afterwards that end up earning a ban. When deciding who undergoes a suspect test I feel that the most deserving pokemon are whoever ends up being the 'closest to OU but banned' and the 'closest to banned but kept OU'. Obviously we can't know who those pokemon will end up being but I think it is an extremely high likelihood that MegaGengar is going to be that 'closest to OU but banned' and thus deserves to be suspected.
I am personally a firm advocate of avoiding bans at all costs. Despite being so anti-ban I am personally of the belief that MegaGengar deserves a quickban because of the DestinyBond and PerishSong sets that 95% of the playerbase doesn't know how to use but are broken when used by good players. However the objective side of me cannot help but believe that not matter how sure I personally am that MegaGengar deserves a ban, the sensible thing to do is suspect test the two cases either side of the ban/not-banned divide. Thus it is because I believe MegaGengar to eventually be the final ban that it deserves to have got there through a suspect test.
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Dugtrio doesn't have Perish song that guarantees Kills. Nor does it have Destiny Bond, which does the same thing. mGengar also has a far better movepool. mGengar can tailor his move pool to whatever he needs to so that the rest of his team can do their job as safe as possible.
Dugtrio has Sucker Punch, EQ, and Stone Edge. Cool.
There ARE people that aren't aware of how good mGengar can be. People that slap Attacks on it with nothing more. Just, dual STAB and coverage. But that's not what makes mGengar the team breaker he is.
Also, do you REALLY think no one else has run into this thing? It's not just being quick banned because someone feels like it. It has CLEARLY been running around and people have experienced it for themselves.
Just because you haven't doesn't mean no one else here has.
Guess you're right, the meta isn't established yet, we may as well let the rest of Ubers out of their cages.
OR, here's a crazy idea, we can plan ahead. . .
Regardless, the poll is closed now.
Clearly, the all of a sudden influx of votes towards yes should tell you something.
Dugtrio has Sucker Punch, EQ, and Stone Edge. Cool.
There ARE people that aren't aware of how good mGengar can be. People that slap Attacks on it with nothing more. Just, dual STAB and coverage. But that's not what makes mGengar the team breaker he is.
Also, do you REALLY think no one else has run into this thing? It's not just being quick banned because someone feels like it. It has CLEARLY been running around and people have experienced it for themselves.
Just because you haven't doesn't mean no one else here has.
Guess you're right, the meta isn't established yet, we may as well let the rest of Ubers out of their cages.
OR, here's a crazy idea, we can plan ahead. . .
Regardless, the poll is closed now.
Clearly, the all of a sudden influx of votes towards yes should tell you something.
As you clearly pointed out, "People know how to play this game". If you let a Gengar come in, Mega Evolve and then get out to come back later with full HP, then you're bad and should not be playing or giving opinions on the meta. Gengar trapping skills are as efficient as Dugtrios or any other trapper. He still is a frail ass mon that can't come in any shit unless he's immune to it, because chances are, he's gonna get ohked. So he's BASICALLY a REVENGE mon, and what does Revenge mon do? They hit hard whichever mon comes in and almost always get a kill. You say 'oh, he'll perish trap you and you'll be done'. But if you know this, why the hell would you throw a Blissey without Shed Shell? The way I see it, Gengar will shift the Meta as much as Magnezone did, basically scaring Skarmories for a while, and then people will realize that this is a gimmick set and you should not expect it on every match, and after that they'll realize you're basically running one less Poké to take care of walls (because that's basically what the Perish trap can do, or are you forgetting that he actually gets hit on the Perish Song turn?)
You say people won't throw mGengar in a Earthquake, I say people won't throw mGengar in anything unless it's immune to it, ever resisted moves like Seed Bomb from a Chesnaught (that it's not very strong) hits Gengar for 30%+ EASY. Face it, if you're wasting your Mega stone on a gimmick Gengar, you BETTER have something that can clean up after threats like MegaKanga, MegaScizor, etc etc.
why is everyone talking about situations in a battle? the point is that its too strong for OU not that its beatable or unbeatable like Deoxys-N was banned because of its options and how hard it hit with its base 150 atk,sp.atk but also could also 2hko a majority of the OU tier. mega gengar is similar with a base 170sp atk and superior coverage it is also able to obliterate or dent almost everything in OU 2hko and ohko. and a shadowtagg ability. base 130 speed outruns almost everything too bottom line is that a pokemon with these feature are too strong for standard play. but some pokemon that can switch in on it are super bulky pokemon like mega venusaur,mega garchomp,meloetta,regice,mega scizor. all must be fully invested in hp and sp def to actually beat mega gengar some calcs just showing some OU walls fully invested so yeah.
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 224-266 (55.4 - 65.8%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 154-182 (42.3 - 50%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Rotom-W: 154-183 (50.6 - 60.1%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 308-364 (76.2 - 90%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 236-278 (63.1 - 74.3%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 216-256 (64.6 - 76.6%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Reuniclus: 258-306 (60.8 - 72.1%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 160-190 (42.7 - 50.8%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Tyranitar: 408-480 (100.9 - 118.8%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Abomasnow: 252-296 (65.6 - 77%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 224-266 (55.4 - 65.8%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 154-182 (42.3 - 50%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Rotom-W: 154-183 (50.6 - 60.1%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 308-364 (76.2 - 90%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 236-278 (63.1 - 74.3%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 216-256 (64.6 - 76.6%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Reuniclus: 258-306 (60.8 - 72.1%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 160-190 (42.7 - 50.8%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Tyranitar: 408-480 (100.9 - 118.8%)
252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Abomasnow: 252-296 (65.6 - 77%)
Asek
Banned deucer.
MeGar is fairly broken if you ask me. First reason for me is that it has too much of an influence on a duel then healthy. As soon as it changes to MeGar (dont say its hard to Mega evolve as lets be honest 3 immunities as normal gengar lets it megavo on quite a few choice attackers / scare something out to megavo as it switches). Any pokemon on your team that is vulnerable to MeGar becomes extremly risky to switch in as soon as its gone mega as a clever double switch / smart predicting will let the MeGar user catch you and destroy you. That kinda of offensive pressure hasn't been seen before in OU and its plain unhealthy. Even when they aren't out of the duel MeGar can effectively force its victims into a backseat role of the duel until its gone
The second reason is that it is just stupidly powerful even without shadow tag. 130 speed and 170 SpA is pretty ridiculous and with the steel nerf gengars ghost typing has never been stronger. Sure its strongest STAB isn't fantastic but with that massive speed stat and incredibly powerful attacks (+no LO recoil!) it can shred holes in pretty much any thing. It also has slightly gimmicky tricks up its sleeve so that once its taken out the mons it needs to it can still attempt to take out others through destiny bond. The combination of unbeatable trapper + spinblocker + incredible power just makes MeGar too powerful in my eyes
made this post while incredibly tired u_u
The second reason is that it is just stupidly powerful even without shadow tag. 130 speed and 170 SpA is pretty ridiculous and with the steel nerf gengars ghost typing has never been stronger. Sure its strongest STAB isn't fantastic but with that massive speed stat and incredibly powerful attacks (+no LO recoil!) it can shred holes in pretty much any thing. It also has slightly gimmicky tricks up its sleeve so that once its taken out the mons it needs to it can still attempt to take out others through destiny bond. The combination of unbeatable trapper + spinblocker + incredible power just makes MeGar too powerful in my eyes
made this post while incredibly tired u_u
haunter
Banned deucer.
I've cleared this up already, but I guess I'll do it again:
1) the poll is informal and doesn't mean much, considering that we've allowed to vote everyone, even fresh new users with potentially no knowledge of the game;
2) the "no" faction has won by less than a mere 1%.
Once again, the only valuable input from this thread have been the few, well thought out, arguments that both the parties have provided, not the irrelevant opinions on what banning protocol would be philosophically ideal.
That being said, since it seems we're going around in circles here, I think we can consider this discussion closed. The OU Council will take into account both the pro-Ubers and the pro-OU arguments that have come to light in this thread and then take the final decision, which will be made public in the next few days.
Thanks everyone who took the time to positively contribute to develop the discussion.
You're wrong.
It's true that the opponent gets 1 opportunity to switch, but because there's only that 1 turn to potentially switch, it's obvious that the opponent will want to do so. If Gengar is faster and substitutes as it Mega Evolves, the opponent is essentially give the choice between:
1) Get trapped by Gengar (and lose a poke)
2) Switch your check into Gengar's sub, and have said check 2HKOd
It's a lose-lose situation you can't get around.
Mega Gar is only not-broken in a metagame where no one knows how to use it and everyone allows you to switch in your AV TTar into Gengar's Shadow Ball as it evolves. Once people start being smart enough to use Substitute, or just spam Focus Blast off the bat, Gengar is broken.
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