Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[farranpoison]

It's not as easy as you make it sound though. I keep on saying MGengar has mediocre bulk. You can't just switch in and out like it's nothing, if MGengar get's hit there goes half his health. Don't forget the turn it takes to use PSong as well. It's harder than it seems to just switch in and use PSong.

Also, about other sets, that's what I was wondering in my original post. What is the set that makes MGengar overpowered? What are some other sets in general?

If you're using the PerishTrap set just because you expect to kill one or two things with it, you're doing it wrong.

Take a look at this post, see his team, and look how well MGengar supports it all by being able to take one one or two specific mons.

 

[Style_Dota]

Also, about other sets, that's what I was wondering in my original post. What is the set that makes MGengar overpowered? What are some other sets in general?

It's not a single set. It's the fact that it can custom tailor its set in order to eliminate whatever Pokemon your team could potentially have trouble with it. That's why it's an amazing support Pokemon.

 

[Skyblade12]

It's not as easy as you make it sound though. I keep on saying MGengar has mediocre bulk. You can't just switch in and out like it's nothing, if MGengar get's hit there goes half his health. Don't forget the turn it takes to use PSong as well. It's harder than it seems to just switch in and use PSong.

Pick up a slow Volt Switch or U-Turn user. Instant Mega Gengar with no damage. Or Revenge kill. Just off the top of my head.

Also, about other sets, that's what I was wondering in my original post. What is the set that makes MGengar overpowered? What are some other sets in general?

Gotcha, I didn't realize that.

Well, it depends on what is walling you. Gengar's move pool is immense. Thunderbolt, Shadow Ball, Dazzling Gleam, Icy Wind, Sludge Wave, just to name a few heavy hitting options. What type tends to wall your sweeper?

 

[Lyfsaho]

This has probably already been stated, but the main reason I see not to quickban Gengarite without actual testing is the slippery slope it leads us to in terms of the absolute best new mechanic of gen 6, mega evolution.

For every Mega you ban, all the other top Megas will gain usage (less competition for one slot), meaning at the very least kangaskhan (actually far superior to MGengar, to be honest) and Lucario will follow suit to Ubers. Thereafter it's theorymon at this point, but probably we'll have a metagame with less than a handful of viable megas (venusaur, charizard, etc), meaning they will likely become extinct on most OU teams.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

This has probably already been stated, but the main reason I see not to quickban Gengarite without actual testing is the slippery slope it leads us to in terms of the absolute best new mechanic of gen 6, mega evolution.

For every Mega you ban, all the other top Megas will gain usage (less competition for one slot), meaning at the very least kangaskhan (actually far superior to MGengar, to be honest) and Lucario will follow suit to Ubers. Thereafter it's theorymon at this point, but probably we'll have a metagame with less than a handful of viable megas (venusaur, charizard, etc), meaning they will likely become extinct on most OU teams.

Then we ban those next. Less time spent testing Gengar means more time to test those. A metagame without Megas is better than one plagued by them.

 

[MagicMissingno]

This has probably already been stated, but the main reason I see not to quickban Gengarite without actual testing is the slippery slope it leads us to in terms of the absolute best new mechanic of gen 6, mega evolution.

For every Mega you ban, all the other top Megas will gain usage (less competition for one slot), meaning at the very least kangaskhan (actually far superior to MGengar, to be honest) and Lucario will follow suit to Ubers. Thereafter it's theorymon at this point, but probably we'll have a metagame with less than a handful of viable megas (venusaur, charizard, etc), meaning they will likely become extinct on most OU teams.

We might quickban Khan but I'd bet my sake gourd that we'll test the other Megas normally.

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Could someone post some replays at 1800+ ladder utilizing MGengar well? I decided that if I'm going to support this MGengar ban I might as well try MGengar in practice. I used a perish song set but found it incredibly hard to switch in due to MGengar's mediocre bulk. Without leftovers or any recovery, MGengar can only make a maximum of 4 substitutes, but that's only if you never take any damage. Since MGengar is vulnerable for a turn when actually using perish song, I can really only expect one sub max, maybe two. After some passive damage, MGengar is just gonna die on the turn it uses Perish Song. And this is all assuming you found a safe way to switch in or you came in after one of your own pokes have died.

Put simply, which one of MGengar's sets is causing him to be banned? When I tried his PSong set, I could only pull off two kills when I was lucky. And when people say MGengar's purpose is to kill off the counters to your sweeper, I couldn't pull that off because it was simply too difficult to switch in MGengar with his mediocre bulk. Could someone post some replays at 1800+ ladder utilizing the PSong set? Could someone post some replays using other sets? I was under the impression that the PSong set was the set causing MGengar to be overpowered, however when I tried it out it was truly underwhelming. Am I playing the PSong set wrong, or it another set that is overpowered?

Well, I think you're trying to play Mega Gengar as a sweeper by taking down as many pokes as possible. The main goal of Mega Gengar is snipe out that wall in your way before letting your sweeper shred everything to pieces. Honestly, in my experience, I've found the use of U-Turn and Volt Switch make it infinitely easier for Mega Gengar to do its job. Then you're guaranteed a safe switch, especially if they switch to that wall.

It's okay if you don't feel the same way I do, but I feel like when you use Mega Gengar you're taking a risk, sorry. He's easily dealt with if you've built your team correctly (and no, that doesn't mean that you have to build a team specifically to deal with MGengar)

Well, Mega Gengar is not a sweeper, and he's mainly used to snipe down walls. In a game, especially vs walls, Mega Gengar absolutely destroys everything, and even in a regular match, Mega Gengar can just take advantage of ST + Destiny Bond or ST + Perish Song to take down that one wall in the way of your sweeper. Again people, we're banning Mega Gengar under the support clause not because he's a sweeper.

I've had so many matches against mega-gengar, and honestly, he's not as good as everyone claims and whines about. He's frail, and as others mention he can't run life orb, and uses your mega-slot when there are other great megas out there. I vote OU.

Read the last couple of posts please. We've been going over this cycle over and over again to the point of utter boredom. Mega Gengar is not a sweeper, but a sniper. It's ultimate goal is to take down the wall in the way of your sweeper. It doesn't matter if it dies right after that wall, because in the end, you're going to be swept by my Lucario, Talonflame, etc.

Again, SUPPORT CLAUSE people.

 

[Thorhammer]

If we're worried about slippery slopes, we could just ask council members if there's any possibility of other quickbans in the next month: if they think the quickbans would definitely stop at Mega Gengar, if they think certain other things (Mega Kangaskhan?) might be up for debate, or if anything could happen for apparent big threats.

 

[Tressed]

This has probably already been stated, but the main reason I see not to quickban Gengarite without actual testing is the slippery slope it leads us to in terms of the absolute best new mechanic of gen 6, mega evolution.

For every Mega you ban, all the other top Megas will gain usage (less competition for one slot), meaning at the very least kangaskhan (actually far superior to MGengar, to be honest) and Lucario will follow suit to Ubers. Thereafter it's theorymon at this point, but probably we'll have a metagame with less than a handful of viable megas (venusaur, charizard, etc), meaning they will likely become extinct on most OU teams.

If a Pokemon is a Mega or not is irrelevent, as is usage. If its broken, we ban it. Right now Gengar and Kangaskan are the only flat out broken megas (Lucario is debateable), none of the other ones are anywhere near as good as them. They're viable in their own right, but they're just another Pokemon without an item, so I doubt they'll be facing the banhammer any time soon.

 

[AOPSUser]

Yes but that is predictable and the cloister gains 1 more boost

Why are you switching Mega Gengar into a Cloyster.

If you switch to something that can conceivably beat it after one Shell Smash (there's a lot of stuff out there that does that, like Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Conkeldurr, or even Breloom if you're feeling gutsy), which is something you should have anyways, you can beat it. And there's nothing wrong with foddering a very weakened mon so you can revenge kill Cloyster.

If you switch Mega Gengar into Cloyster you deserve to be swept.

 

[RowDog]

Mega-Gengar has a problem in that what he can get rid of is limited to the set which he is running. The Perish Song trap is flawed in that anything that can take it to under 25% HP either by itself or with the help of SR or previous damage means that it can't run the last Sub, but still do a nice job of getting rid of certain Pokemon. Sets like MikeDecIsHere's compliment the team very well against defensive threats for other sweepers, but it can then lose its ability to defeat some of the strongest Specially Defensive walls (Blissy, Chansey etc.), though I guess at that stage it is beyond the point. Both these sets though are very strong team supports and really good at shutting down walls. M-Geng isn't as able though to take down sweepers unless it is running Destiny Bond and moves first. Getting rid of your opponents walls do not always call for an instant win, and the late game battle of the sweepers and setups can still beat team. Sweepers can sweep other sweepers, and M-Geng can at times give them chance to sweep if instead of going to revenge kill M-Geng I predict it to switch out and setup up a Dragon Dance or whatever on my Dragonite, or a SD on my Scizor for example, allowing me to wreck significant portions of your team. Its all a about good prediction and a lot of other things. Granted Mega-Gengar pokes giant holes in defensive and stall teams but can also do rather poorly against other offensive teams which M-Gengar fails to take out. And likewise although other Pokemon cannot trap something like Mega-Gengar they can threaten huge damage to whatever switches in which does a very good job, only a little inferior to Mega-Geng. I know that this is a little situational in a couple of ways, but once you know M-Gengs set you can play around it.

But stall teams don't have to worry too much, as M-Gengar isn't on every team, which is due to people using other Megas. Mega-Charizards, Mega-Kang and Mega-Lucario are all still very popular and M-Geng will still have to compete with them in order to get a spot. This adds a cost to using Mega-Gengar which I think should be played around with more in order to see what it is worth. Mega-Kang can cause problems for a Mega-Geng team and vice versa. It's about each team only has one as a driving force in a role and most teams will be threatened by them. I want to see more into the drawbacks of taking the mega-slot before we go banning them. When we ban one there is more reason to ban another due to the lack of competition. I feel that this new part introduced to Gen VI should be tested more, because I think it is worth more than what people give it credit.

 

[Skyblade12]

When we ban one there is more reason to ban another due to the lack of competition. I feel that this new part introduced to Gen VI should be tested more, because I think it is worth more than what people give it credit.

If there was any evidence that indicated that the majority of Megas were vastly superior Pokémon, this argument may hold weight. The whole "Life Orb is better than Mega" outcry may have died down, but the fact remains that most of the Megas are nowhere near deadly to the point of needing to be banned.

And, while it's true that you have fewer options for a Mega slot if a stone is banned, you do realize that you don't have to run a Mega at all, right?

Oh sry

NP, just wanting to make sure we understood each other.

 

[Thorhammer]

Sash Cloyster has a really interesting dynamic, but if we're gonna start talking about it in detail it might be better to head over to the Old Pokemon thread. Long story short, it can set up in Gengar's face and start a sweep just fine, but if your opponent has something waiting in the wings that can take off its last point of HP before getting annihilated, that's not much value.

Run sash anything. ANYTHING! Now I still believe that Gengarite should go, but some people hold it it too high regard. Sure a focus sasher or sturdy user can kill Mega Gengar, But I shouldn't have to bring one into my team just to accomplish that task.

Sash is not an answer to Gengar; it's specifically a set-up method for high-end sweepers like Cloyster if you're willing to have your team put in the work to protect it. It doesn't make sense on just anything.

It also has its old uses on leads and stuff, but that's what else it can do now that entry hazards and weather are easier to work around.

 

[thepotatoofepic]

1. Same as blaziken. It has chandelure as a perfect counter, but that does' not mean u should have one

 

[Photofluid]

Mega-Gengar has a problem in that what he can get rid of is limited to the set which he is running. The Perish Song trap is flawed in that anything that can take it to under 25% HP either by itself or with the help of SR or previous damage means that it can't run the last Sub, but still do a nice job of getting rid of certain Pokemon. Sets like MikeDecIsHere's compliment the team very well against defensive threats for other sweepers, but it can then lose its ability to defeat some of the strongest Specially Defensive walls (Blissy, Chansey etc.), though I guess at that stage it is beyond the point. Both these sets though are very strong team supports and really good at shutting down walls. M-Geng isn't as able though to take down sweepers unless it is running Destiny Bond and moves first. Getting rid of your opponents walls do not always call for an instant win, and the late game battle of the sweepers and setups can still beat team. Sweepers can sweep other sweepers, and M-Geng can at times give them chance to sweep if instead of going to revenge kill M-Geng I predict it to switch out and setup up a Dragon Dance or whatever on my Dragonite, or a SD on my Scizor for example, allowing me to wreck significant portions of your team. Its all a about good prediction and a lot of other things. Granted Mega-Gengar pokes giant holes in defensive and stall teams but can also do rather poorly against other offensive teams which M-Gengar fails to take out. And likewise although other Pokemon cannot trap something like Mega-Gengar they can threaten huge damage to whatever switches in which does a very good job, only a little inferior to Mega-Geng. I know that this is a little situational in a couple of ways, but once you know M-Gengs set you can play around it.

But stall teams don't have to worry too much, as M-Gengar isn't on every team, which is due to people using other Megas. Mega-Charizards, Mega-Kang and Mega-Lucario are all still very popular and M-Geng will still have to compete with them in order to get a spot. This adds a cost to using Mega-Gengar which I think should be played around with more in order to see what it is worth. Mega-Kang can cause problems for a Mega-Geng team and vice versa. It's about each team only has one as a driving force in a role and most teams will be threatened by them. I want to see more into the drawbacks of taking the mega-slot before we go banning them. When we ban one there is more reason to ban another due to the lack of competition. I feel that this new part introduced to Gen VI should be tested more, because I think it is worth more than what people give it credit.

The points for the offensive teams are very valid(now everyone knows 170SpA does far less than it seems), but I think you have underestimate its effect to stall teams

As a stall player myself, I could tell that I can prepare for litterally every single megas, each mega evolutions have very assessible checks, but the check utility mega- gengar, despite never facing one myself, is largely limited to the offensive side of wearing it down quick enough, and we still have tauntbond and sub/disable and etc to discuss with, and the fact that you have no idea what you will possibly face before you take it on your face. This adds up and 80% of the meta is on check. Unless someone could provide a solution which doesn't involve endless mindgames or trading death, I don't see any reason it would pass the test.

 

[Skyblade12]

replay comes up as an empty room.

Refresh the page, then click "Instant Replay" to see the match.

Long story short, it's a Truant Durant Entrainment lead paired with Gothorita and evolutions to trap. Then it just stalls out, with accuracy loss moves, paralysis, and eventually Heal Pulse when the opponent starts struggling. The effect was to make the opponent quit out of boredom (or just stall for 275 turns then get slaughtered when the Struggler finally faints, which is what happened here).

Pretty sure if it ever came to a ruling, it would have been banned, since it is a strategy with no win condition. Did anyone ever present this to the mods?

 

[farranpoison]

Refresh the page, then click "Instant Replay" to see the match.

Long story short, it's a Truant Durant Entrainment lead paired with Gothorita and evolutions to trap. Then it just stalls out, with accuracy loss moves, paralysis, and eventually Heal Pulse when the opponent starts struggling. The effect was to make the opponent quit out of boredom (or just stall for 275 turns then get slaughtered when the Struggler finally faints, which is what happened here).

Pretty sure if it ever came to a ruling, it would have been banned, since it is a strategy with no win condition. Did anyone ever present this to the mods?

There's no point to ban anything based on this. Since the ladder is based around teams trying to win, something like this would never be run by any decent player. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't affect anything. Now if the majority of players started to run this, then maybe. But who would be idiotic enough to do that?

 

[AOPSUser]

There are plenty of more broken things than MGengar. If this replay is still up, you might learn a thing or two... I sure did.

http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-pokebankoubeta-65194327

Something like this was run in Hackmons a lot. However, in Hackmons it actually worked (a little) due to the mons that were using it--stuff like Giratina, Chansey, etc.

Not only does that kind of team not work against a lot of teams, but if I faced it I'd have the patience to go a thousand more turns (having other windows open while laddering helps). And iirc PS has a 1024-turn limit, and at the end a draw is forced...so...yeah...

Also Admins can come in and force draws.

And I would have set up Dragon Dance first so that if I hit he's dead.

 

[Skyblade12]

There's no point to ban anything based on this. Since the ladder is based around teams trying to win, something like this would never be run by any decent player. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't affect anything. Now if the majority of players started to run this, then maybe. But who would be idiotic enough to do that?

Oh, I agree, I was just trying to address anubite's concerns.

In my opinion, Mega Gengar is still more broken. Quite a bit more, since, like AOPSUser, if I'm online playing, the time isn't that important to me. It can only stall for a limited time, and as soon as a second Pokémon comes in, the match is over.

 

[Trevenant]

No I mean if you have just fainted their Mon and they send out cloyster

Why not just use Thunderbolt and kill off the Cloyster. Or just switch, one Pokemon ≠ bad.

 

[trc]

Because barely anyone runs Thunderbolt on Gengar. Regardless, you could Taunt before Shell Smash, Destiny Bond if he already has Shell Smashed to eliminate his sweeper, switch out, I think Focus Blast OHKOs standard LO Cloyster, maybe even Shadow Ball too, what with Cloysters pathetic Special Defense.

 

[AOPSUser]

Because barely anyone runs Thunderbolt on Gengar. Regardless, you could Taunt before Shell Smash, Destiny Bond if he already has Shell Smashed to eliminate his sweeper, switch out, I think Focus Blast OHKOs standard LO Cloyster, maybe even Shadow Ball too, what with Cloysters pathetic Special Defense.

HP Fire nearly OHKOes that thing BEFORE smashing after SR, lol.

Shadow Ball rapes it. Focus Blast and Thunderbolt are overkill.

But then there's people who actually run Scarf Cloyster. They can actually somehow make it work (I still have no idea how), too.

 

[Selena Gomaz]

http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-pokebankoubeta-65224266

Here is a demonstration of how a good player uses a Mega Gengar, how effectively it Perish Traps a Pokemon and still ensures that it can be saved to damage some more later on.

 

[Magnemite]

Mega-Gengar has a problem in that what he can get rid of is limited to the set which he is running. The Perish Song trap is flawed in that anything that can take it to under 25% HP either by itself or with the help of SR or previous damage means that it can't run the last Sub, but still do a nice job of getting rid of certain Pokemon. Sets like MikeDecIsHere's compliment the team very well against defensive threats for other sweepers, but it can then lose its ability to defeat some of the strongest Specially Defensive walls (Blissy, Chansey etc.), though I guess at that stage it is beyond the point. Both these sets though are very strong team supports and really good at shutting down walls. M-Geng isn't as able though to take down sweepers unless it is running Destiny Bond and moves first. Getting rid of your opponents walls do not always call for an instant win, and the late game battle of the sweepers and setups can still beat team. Sweepers can sweep other sweepers, and M-Geng can at times give them chance to sweep if instead of going to revenge kill M-Geng I predict it to switch out and setup up a Dragon Dance or whatever on my Dragonite, or a SD on my Scizor for example, allowing me to wreck significant portions of your team. Its all a about good prediction and a lot of other things. Granted Mega-Gengar pokes giant holes in defensive and stall teams but can also do rather poorly against other offensive teams which M-Gengar fails to take out. And likewise although other Pokemon cannot trap something like Mega-Gengar they can threaten huge damage to whatever switches in which does a very good job, only a little inferior to Mega-Geng. I know that this is a little situational in a couple of ways, but once you know M-Gengs set you can play around it.

But stall teams don't have to worry too much, as M-Gengar isn't on every team, which is due to people using other Megas. Mega-Charizards, Mega-Kang and Mega-Lucario are all still very popular and M-Geng will still have to compete with them in order to get a spot. This adds a cost to using Mega-Gengar which I think should be played around with more in order to see what it is worth. Mega-Kang can cause problems for a Mega-Geng team and vice versa. It's about each team only has one as a driving force in a role and most teams will be threatened by them. I want to see more into the drawbacks of taking the mega-slot before we go banning them. When we ban one there is more reason to ban another due to the lack of competition. I feel that this new part introduced to Gen VI should be tested more, because I think it is worth more than what people give it credit.

Mega Gengar always beats all Chansey and most Blissey, since it is immune to Seismic Toss and Toxic, their only means of dealing damage. Most stall teams with Chansey or Blissey completely rely on them to beat a lot of special attackers, so anything that can trap and beat them (and most common stall Pokemon, for that matter) completely wrecks stall. Mega Gengar is even better than Kyurem-B at beating stall, and that's saying a lot.

Also, this (thankfully) hasn't been brought up for a few pages, but has anyone actually thought about how absurd it would be if Pokemon weren't banned from OU unless they were viable in Ubers? We would be looking at the new Arceus-Bug dominated OU meta if that were the case.

 

[Halcyon.]

I know most people think the Perish Song set i the best, and while I'm not denying that it is able to take out defensive Pokemon far too easily, I feel as though the offensive nature of this metagame is what's leading people to the conclusion that Mega Gengar is ineffective, because it can be more difficult to trap offensive threats with the Perish Trap set (note that I said CAN BE. It's certainly not impossible). However, I think people are underestimating a simple 3 Attacks + Destiny Bond set. With this, you can trap and KO certain offensive threats to your team as well. For example, I ran a team based around Garchomp and Volcarona that had trouble with DD Dragonite, and I used a Mega Gengar with Hidden Power Ice to eliminate that (it outspeeds +1 Adamant Dragonite and OHKOes after SR). I also had issues with Togekiss and Azumarill so guess what I did? I used Sludge Bomb (this was actually a pre-bank team so no Sludge Wave :c) in the second slot. This meant I could take out Azumarill and make sure Volcarona didn't have to worry about the impending Aqua Jet if I tried to sweep. Not to mention the things people say "counter" Mega Gengar (no such thing .-. but whatever) are great setup fodder for the other Pokemon I'm running. Scizor wants to come in and Pursuit trap my Gengar after I killed (let's say) Azumarill? Ok, thanks for the free Volcarona setup! Tyranitar coming in to do the same? Yeah, SD Garchomp is about to fuck up your life. For things I couldn't necessarily OHKO but which could be troublesome like Greninja, I could trap and kill with Destiny Bond.

Aside from that little bit about offensive Mega Gengar, I really want to try to explain its use in terms people might better understand. Mega Gengar should be played like Magnezone. I'm assuming that most people here know about DragMag teams, as they were very popular all of last gen and the gen before that. It was widely considered the most powerful weatherless playstyle when Deo-D was banned. Anyway, the way it's done is simple. You have a bunch of Dragons which naturally lure out Steel types (Ferrothorn and Skarmory were the most common Dragon checks, but Shuca Jirachi and others worked too) that are supposed to wall you. Once they brought out the Steel types, you would either double switch or sac something so that Magnezone could come in, trap that Steel, and eliminate it. This gave you free reign to spam Scarf Moxie Outrage from Salamence or Specs Draco from Latios.

Well, Mega Gengar works in a similar way. You lure out Pokemon that give the rest of your team trouble, bring in Mega Gengar after sacking something, or on a double switch, and then take them out. It doesn't matter if you then bring in a Scarf 'mon or a Pursuit trapper. Mega Gengar has done its job. Saying that it can be countered is like saying that DragMag doesn't work because Hippowdon can OHKO Magnezone with EQ >_>


Also, because PS battle rooms don't last forever, I'll post the log of the battle Selena Gomaz mentioned here.